Gartner Says Linux PCs Just Used To Pirate Windows 815
LostCluster writes "CNET is reporting results from a Gartner Group report that claims 40% of desktop machines sold with Linux on them are being used to run pirate copies of Windows! The report goes on to say that this stat reaches as high in 80% in 'emerging markets', the same places that the stripped down lite version of Windows is being aimed at. Gartner's making a bold prediction that the number of machines sold as Linux desktops may eclipse the number of machines actually running Linux."
This isnt FUD... (Score:5, Interesting)
How many people are willing to buy that addon instead of visiting suprnova.org?
So where's the market for OS-less PC's? (Score:2, Interesting)
(I know you can buy OS-less PC's, but we tend to make it a little bit hard. You know, you have to buy them in part from newegg or whatever. There is not a huge market for buying them all pre-packaged).
Re:Bollocks (Score:5, Interesting)
Perhaps you should resell your copies of Windows to others who might want them for barebones systems - and split the Microsoft tax 50/50.
Microsoft says you can't do this. But the courts have indicated that you can.
Re:Wow (Score:5, Interesting)
Why is this so surprising? (Score:3, Interesting)
I can't find the report on Gartner's site [gartner.com] and therefore can't say anything about its methodology. (And if the report isn't free, I ain't shelling out the bucks for it.) But it strikes me as telling that of the people rending their clothes and screaming here, very few of them are actually arguing with their numbers beyond saying that it's "justified," or "MSFT gets what's coming to them," or "this is offset by," etc.
Oh, and by the way: the headline is stupid and wrong.
Re:Doesn't have anything to do with Linux (Score:5, Interesting)
I have MSDN Universal, which give me 10 XP, win2k, win2003, etc. not to mention the multilingual stuff - if I was mad enough I could buy dozens of machines, all with valid licenses (my last workplace worked entirely like that, although we had on MSDNU for every 3 developers).
Re:wow! (Score:3, Interesting)
According to his vendor and the local MS fortress his key was valid
The RIAA have really missed out on this argument.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Yeah, but... (Score:1, Interesting)
In fact, the last four laptops I've had (two that have been assigned to me at different jobs and two that I've bought and used personally) have had Windows installed on delivery. All four have also had Windows wiped and Linux installed within a week.
The Gartner estimate that the 5% Linux computers shipped had a 40% switching rate would mean that 3% kept Linux.
On the other hand, if 2.3% of the, let's say, 90% of computers sold with Windows pre-installed switch, that would mean that approx 2% flowed back to Linux (status quo).
Now the question is of course, does 2.3% Windows->Linux switchers seem likely? (I would guess it is but of course I have nothing to back that guess up with). And how to account for dual-booters?
For a really fair comparison, I guess you'd have to take into consideration the time each dual-booter spent in each OS as a person who installed the "other" OS, tried it once and then just leaves it on their harddrive wouldn't really count as a convert.
Re:Barebone machines (Score:2, Interesting)
2. You don't know a trustworthy source of barebones systems. Not all the local whitebox dealers are good.
3. You want a laptop
4. Your boss wants corporate-standard hardware
Duh... (Score:4, Interesting)
Even here in the US, what do you think happens with the Wal-Mart linux machines that they sell dirt-cheap. They get turned into 'grandma's-email/XP machine' by some kid that installed a pirate copy of XP.
I dont see this message from Gartner as Anti-Linux. So many of you people have blinders on so that whenever you see MS and Linux in the same sentence you think "OMG Micro$oft Sux0r5!1!"
This is the same as buying one of those MP3 players with a huge CF card, and taking the CF card out to use in your camera.
People just buy cheap crappy PC's that come preloaded with Linux, they wipe the drive, and install XP.
Its purely economical from their point of view. Cheap PC + Pirated software = WIN.
Re:Barebone machines (Score:3, Interesting)
Second, it's much cheaper. Dell makes price mistakes, and they also have huge sales at the end of their fiscal quarter. Makes for some great bargains!
Re:wow! (Score:3, Interesting)
BTW I do folks that pirate windows, but they usually build thier own boxes. My neighbor just built a box for a bit less than 280.
$94 for a Athlon/Mb from Compgeeks (W vid/snd/ethernet)
$16 from a local clone shop for an old generic case
$45 for a refurb 30gig HD
$45 for a refurb DVD/CD_RW combo drive
$70 for some DDR 266 512MB
And some pirated copy of Windows2000 pro that GOK where it came from.
El Reg... (Score:5, Interesting)
The Register [theregister.co.uk] had a good story about this yesterday, basically stating that they weren't even aware of the story until Gartner sent them out a rather insistent correction to a press release they hadn't actually received. As they say:
What the correction actually said, seemed to be a rather more reserved opinion:
El Reg themselves then add:
Did you know... (Score:2, Interesting)
At my comapny we have 2 mail servers that came with Windows 2000 Server and they ran bad, the same mail server vendor make a Linux Appliance. Pop in the CD, it formats the drive and installed a stripped down RedHat install. It runs 4 times faster. We simply ate it on the Windows licenses. More free money to Microsoft.
Gartner Report is Right About "Emerging Markets" (Score:2, Interesting)
Since all software is essentially free in China, Linux will have serious trouble in gaining market share in China and other emerging markets. Microsoft Windows is "free", and Linux is free.
That 80% of Linux desktops sold in China is running Windows merely confirms the above analysis.
The problem will not be resolved any time soon. The Chinese have almost no respect for human rights (e.g. brutal occupation of Tibet [tibet.org]) or property rights (e.g. theft of software, blueprints for microprocessors, "Star Wars" before its American debut, ...).
Re:That's preposterous! (Score:5, Interesting)
On the other hand, I've seen Open Office handle Word documents more reliably than Office. The only reasons I have Windows at home are I'm lazy and don't want to install a new operating system, and the games.
However your parent post has a point, I don't want to run Windows, I'd rather not actually. My next computer will not have Windows on it, and I have no intention of ever installing Windows on it.
Deliberate incompatibility through OpenBIOS (Score:5, Interesting)
But perhaps there is a solution that could kill two bird with one stone: make Linux-systems deliberately incompatible with Windows by supplying them with a legacy-free OpenFirmware-implementation, such as OpenBIOS, which could be optimised specifically for Linux.
Many experienced UNIX and Linux users have been desiring OpenFirmware/OpenBIOS acceptance in the x86-market anyway, and this may be just the chance to make it happen!
It's a perfect solution: On the one hand, Microsoft can no longer complain about Linux-systems being a merely a method to use pirated copies of Windows. On the other hand, selling Linux systems solely with OpenBIOS firmwares (and making some modification to make the motherboards imcompatible with pirated legacy BIOS-versions) guarantees that buyers will be running Linux (or other open-source/free-software OS'es) instead of Windows on it.
And of course, as we all know, an Openfirmware-based BIOS would provide additional technical advantages and features over legacy BIOS implementations.
And finally: true OpenBIOS-enabled Linux-systems would be free from any DRM-crap.
Take the problem, and turn it in to an opportunity Wonderful!
+1 Insightful (Score:5, Interesting)
When piracy is defined as any use that the vendor does not approve of, it's hard to call it a moral issue and to think of the vendor as a victim.
Exactly. This is another variant of the problem that the entertainment content industry has created for itself: By making copyright terms so long that most people don't realize they ever expire, people no longer see copyright as a good trade -- or as any kind of trade at all -- and therefore have no compunction about violating the hell out of it.
It's a slashdot cliche, but it really is true: The more you tighten your grasp, the more copies will slip through your fingers, as the majority simply stops paying attention to your restrictions.
Re:Bollocks (Score:5, Interesting)
One could, theoretically, use this for pirating. Or one could use this with a legit copy.
As quoted by Bill Gates himself... (Score:5, Interesting)
I really don't see what all the fuss is about.
Re:Bollocks (Score:1, Interesting)
gartner is on drugs (Score:3, Interesting)
you need a written order from God to get a branded computer without the windows virus on it. you can also buy a box full of random parts anyplace, and build a kickass computer with no OS any time you want.
where gartner is pulling this "data" from, I don't know, and I am not about to spend hundreds of dollars to find out. it is so bogus on its face that I can't see how gartner is staying in business.
validity of EULA (Score:5, Interesting)
I have never entered into a contract with Microsoft. Indeed, the last few machines I have bought had MS Windows pre-installed, so I never even had to click on "I accept" to install it. Under the doctrine of First Sale, in the absence of a contract I can do what I please with the goods that I purchase. Can someone explain to me how Microsoft's wishes could possibly be binding on me?
For me this is a purely hypothetical question since I have no interest in running MS Windows, but I am perplexed by the idea that Microsoft's EULA's can be binding on people who either never saw them until after they purchased the software or on people who have never even looked at the EULA. Haven't the courts ruled that such "shrinkwrap licenses" are invalid?
Re:wow! (Score:1, Interesting)
I'm sorry but Apple fanboys should just stay out of this conversation. Apple keeps far tighter control over hardware and OS than Microsoft.
How Dare ! (Score:3, Interesting)
But to say this when it is so difficult to find any high street store or OEM that will sell you a computer without Windows -- because of the penalties imposed by Redmond... Man this fires me up badly.
Is it so difficult to swallow that some people actually prefer an operating system that doesnt have all the flaws that Windows has ? Is it so bad that OEM's and other companies are starting to notice this? what next ? It really amazes me who dreams up these new and wonderful FUD stories to try and blacken Linux, whos very existance is borne from love?
The increasing trend of OEM's selling PC's with linux pre-installed is because there is a certain amout of demand for it - in the server space and increasingly as an alternative desktop for developers and in some cases just ordinary folk.
Once again this simply emphasizes how worried they are in Redmond about the linux trend that they dont seem to be able to do anything about except generate lies and FUD which is usually ill informed - made up - or just twisted statistics. If these people are failing to see the merits of Linux and the community of people behind it creating software- well then there is no hope for Windows getting any better.
Re:Big news! (Score:1, Interesting)
Imagine that, MS anti-piracy strategies backfiring on them, who would've thought...
/ Sicking
Re:The RIAA have really missed out on this argumen (Score:3, Interesting)
I remember
Re:wow! (Score:3, Interesting)
For example, in PA there is the "Employment At Will" law which means that an employee can quit anytime s/he desires, and a company can fire an employee anytime s/he desires. Neither party needs to give a reason, and they cannot be held accountable for terminating the employment.
HOWEVER, companies make contracts all the time in PA regarding employment terms of services. These contracts supersede the "Employment at will" law.
Same thing - as long as the MS EULA does not create an illegal action then it is perfectly suitable to superseded other laws.
It's not happening with Gateway hardware! (Score:4, Interesting)
Basics, P4-2.6ghz, 512m, 120m, Nvidia, CRT & MF PSCF, and, Winbloz XP home.
He ordered the machine, $1,500 (about $800 more than I could have built one from scratch)
He brings the whole thing, brand new in the box to me and says, "Install Suse 9.1 Pro on it please." and takes off.
Guess what? This Gateway machine will NOT BOOT AT ALL if it detects a Linux formated hard disc (0x83) plugged into it via ANY means. IDE, IDE on a card, even a USB drive formated for Linux stops the boot from happening. It won't boot Linux from CD or DVD, it won't touch Linux at all. It is coded into the bios to NO BOOT if it detects a non windows drive connected to it.
It won't boot with XP as the OS on the primary drive and a Linux formated drive connected as a secondary drive. I spent a week verifying this. I tried dozens of different drives, CD's, DVD's, distros, and combos thereof. I had to re-install XP back on it and tell my friend, "You screwed the pooch, take it back." He won't, he claims he signed a contract to make payments on it. Screw that, I say it's broken and should be at the very least replaced with a usable machine. So my dumb friend is going to keep it, pay for it and give it to his daughter.
So, Gateway and M$ have found a way to prevent anyone from using anything but M$.
Oh, and one last comment, these so called XP pirates that would use Linux to pirate XP? Nope. They are too stupid to figure out how to use Linux just to get free winbloz. To do this they would have to spend way to much time figuring out how to setup their PPPOE, then finding using GTK-Gnutella or BitTorrent & Python and finally K3b to burn it to disc. Right.
I've seen these low end PC's that have Linux pre-installed, ThizLinux. Total, unusable GARBAGE. Trust me, they will never accomplish the task. Just go to any of the alt.os.distro.linux groups and read any of the multitude of "Linux sux!" posts....
These retards will just get a copy from a buddy that's already online. XP is easier to find than crack or meth. Something they need to quit smoking. Oh, and if Linux is such an easy to use pirating tool, why is it that M$ is the number one delivery system for pirated warez?
Someone should sue these morons for slander and liable.
Re:wow! (Score:5, Interesting)
Turns out that most of them, even if they do claim to be contractually obliged etc, will oblige for the simple reason that it's a sale they wouldn't otherwise get.
Re:Bollocks (Score:2, Interesting)
Other side of the coin... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:wow! (Score:5, Interesting)
Since I keep all my CD keys seperately, I ended up calling MS to get a new key because the old one refused to install on the new computer.
Guess what, they refused to cancel the old one and give me a new one because the license is tied to the stolen hard drive. Great.
Re:Deliberate incompatibility through OpenBIOS (Score:3, Interesting)
But perhaps there is a solution that could kill two bird with one stone: make Linux-systems deliberately incompatible with Windows by supplying them with a legacy-free OpenFirmware-implementation, such as OpenBIOS
Well, it's an interesting idea. I would be worried about hardware compatibility with the OpenBIOS, and of course you couldn't expect MS to keep Windows incompatible with that standard if anyone actually started using it. Don't forget, while they'd like to see all these users pay for the OS, they would much rather have them running pirate Windows than Linux.
Re:They are missing the point (Score:3, Interesting)
This is the real point. I used to work at a local computer store, and they started selling machines pre-loaded with windows. Why? Because of the overwhelming demand for linux? No. Because if they make a cheap box they can put in their big color ad, they can drop a hundred bucks off the price with a little blurb in fine printing saying pre-loaded with linux. It gets people in the store, and most of the time when you explain to the grandmother who is buying a machine for their grandchild who is starting college, they pay the extra for windows. Or get talked into a more expensive system.
So yes, often the people who buy a machine 'pre-loaded' with linux are really the people buying a machine with no OS, and install windows on their own. It just looks like a 'linux' machine because the option is there, and there's no reason (cost) for the customer to ask them to remove it, and takes too much paperwork for the employee to care. I'd say about 50% of those machines got a pirated copy of windows, and 50% got a legitimate copy from a previous computer that is now defunct.
Maybe 1 in a dozen I sold I could say was going to a person who wanted to try linux out. I know they did, cause they kept coming back and asking questions.
To some up, stores advertise linux machines to look competative with dell and everyone else. What people do with them once they leave the store has nothing to do with the store's intentions, or whether or not the machine had linux to begin with.
Re:wow! (Score:3, Interesting)
the machine went from 325 to 300. That was 4 years ago.
ROM Windows (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course that's what these DRM compliant bioses are all about too. This issue will be going away shortly if the new bioses become the standard.
Re:+1 Insightful (Score:2, Interesting)
Isnt this a bit over the line? (Score:2, Interesting)
Basically, they are saying that if you buy a machine preinstalled with linux, there is a 40% chance you are a criminal.
I would think that some enterprising land shark out there might just want to start a class action libel suit about that statement, against gartner and cnet, if such a suit is even possible.
Couldnt the argument go something like, "such an article could indeed make such individuals feel persecuted by the law in the future with out cause, possibly even seeking councle that they wouldnt even need otherwise?"
Again IANAL and Im just speculating.
where the f**k? (Score:3, Interesting)
I recently got an HP zd7000 for work and occasional gaming. Since the only GPU that works(with Linux) really well for newer games is NVIDIA Geforce, the zd7000 was pretty much the only thing I could find that was suitable for me. Of course, getting it without 'doze was not an option.
Looks like they got bought (Score:4, Interesting)
What is next, a report from them on 'pirate-2-pirate'.
Truth often gets lost when the other side has control of the media/marketing machine.
HD dies - more money for MS (Score:3, Interesting)
So what happens when the HD dies? I guess this is how MS will be selling a new version of XP to the same customer every few years.
Re:wow! (Score:4, Interesting)
Good point, considering the lengths Microsoft goes to keep linux off its customers' xboxes, while Sony, otoh, even brought out a linux kit for its gaming console.
MS shouldn't waste time with Windows anyway (Score:2, Interesting)
Office is the MS cash cow and if they wanted to expand their sales they'd just port it to Unix/Linux or at least supply a version with really good emulation under it, a la Wine.
Then they wouldn't need to worry about how much market share Windows had and could concentrate on their real money maker.
Indonesia governmenet use Linux for years now (Score:2, Interesting)
Once I was making a joke about Gnome (a french one, Mennen [shaving cream] pour nous les gnomes [original advert says pour nous les hommes {men in french}]) and my wife goes hey Gnome that's the name of my desktop at work.
"You use Linux at work?!?", I was really surprise, my wife was working as a consultant for Indonesia Ministry of Coop and Small Business and for Ministry of Industry and Trade; she was telling me that everyone in government is using Linux.
When I told this story to my expat collegue Marek from Poland, he told me it is the same in Poland.
I wish I wrote an article about this at the time (2001) maybe we would not see major FUD/BS from Gartner and other lame IDC.
I think Linux users should sue Gartner for libel!
Re:M$'s, not Linux's, problem (Score:3, Interesting)
I had one lady that was running mandrake9.2 for around 9 months trouble free. Her step son/son in law something decided she needed the latest windows XP. After it crashing withing the first month and i being the one having to fix it, an update or something unlocked the pirated code and it needed reactivated. She finally had me replace mandrake on it and hasn't had a problem since. Of course all she does is surf the web and ckeck email. ocasionaly listen to some cd's. maybe play a couple simple games like solitare of majhong. She had no desire to move from linux to windows. It was someone else that told here she got riped off and did the moving.