Linux Clustering 154
An anonymous reader writes "Beowulf clustering turns 10 years old, and, in this interview, creator Donald Becker talks about how Beowulf can handle high-end computing on a par with supercomputers."
Whoever dies with the most toys wins.
Can you imagine... (Score:5, Funny)
I sure can!
Re:Can you imagine... (Score:2, Funny)
"Hey, can you imagine a beowulf cluster of er... beowulf cluters?"
Doesn't quite work, you see.
Imagine All... (Score:1, Funny)
Imagine all the clusters
It's easy if you try
With Linux on them
Computing Particles in Sky
Imagine all Beowulf
Crunching in harmony (AhIahahah...)
Re:Imagine All... (Score:4, Interesting)
re: can you imagine... (Score:2, Funny)
now, imagine a beowulf cluster of slashdotters having that same thought...
ed
Yes I can! (Score:1)
A few Slashdot clichés: (Score:5, Funny)
- How long until the RIAA sues them into oblivion once they find out how may MP3's you can put on one?
- "Can you put Linux on it?" or "Yes, but will it run Linux?"
- "Yeah, but does it run Doom3?" or "And it still won't run Doom3."
- Any comment regarding "Duke Nukem Forever" taking literally 'forever' and being termed 'vaporware'.
- I am not buying one until they support ".ogg".
- I for one welcome our new (insert name of company mentioned in post or story) overlords.
- "George Lucas raped my childhood" or "Greedo shoots first" comments on any story incorporating the Star Wars franchise.
- A comment including these 3 components in any order: Natalie Portman, naked and petrified, hot grits, one's pants.
- Microsoft = Evil, MPAA = Evil, RIAA = Evil; with anything else incorporated to try and fit those equations into the topic at hand
- Some type of reference to the size of one's ProN collection, the amount of ProN that can be stored on the gadget or technology in question, or the ProN industry itself being the first to make good sue of the new technology or gadget in question (ergo: the ProN industry drives technology)
- The posted cliché being self-described as an "obligatory" post in the heading area if that particular cliché had not been addressed yet by previous slashdotters. (e.g. "obligatory Beowulf cluster comment")
- Post revealing the fact that the story's homepage had been slashdotted already, culminating towards another post later on with the homepage story itself being copied & pasted verbatim (often with a subsequent post purporting that this is karma whoring, even though the poster admits it is indeed helpful anyways.)
- Remark on the size of some new storage advancement about how many LOC's (Library of Congresses) can fit on it, or any other remark noting how this can be an actual valid unit of data storage measurement.
- A variation of the Zero Wing video game intro dialogue regarding it's broken English translation: "Someone set up us the base....we have every ZIG, make your time".....blah, blah, blah.
- Very soon lists such as this will be clichés as well.
- Similarly noted and additional clichés may be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slashdot_subculture
Re:A few Slashdot clichés: (Score:1)
- How long until the RIAA sues them into oblivion once they find out how may MP3's you can put on one?
- "Can you put Linux on it?" or "Yes, but will it run Linux?"
- "Yeah, but does it run Doom3?" or "And it still won't run Doom3."
- Any comment regarding "Duke Nukem Forever" taking literally 'forever' and being termed 'vaporware'.
- I am not buying one until they support ".ogg".
- I for one welcome our new (insert name of company mentioned in post or story) overlord
Re:A few Slashdot clichés: (Score:2)
Re:A few Slashdot clichés: (Score:2)
BSD is dying!!
Re:A few Slashdot clichés: (Score:1)
pr0n.
news? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:news? (Score:3, Funny)
In other news: "Ford says their cars are just as good as BMW's and Emachine states their computers rival Apple's"
Re:news? (Score:1, Offtopic)
I'm also sure that Ford kicks BMW's ass in terms of popularity, at least in the USA.
I'm going to have to work something about the prevalence of bad taste into my Stupid People Theory.
And quality? (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:And quality? (Score:1, Offtopic)
that's the 745i, not the 735i, I agree with you that it's a piece
Although to be honest, any BMW made since the mid-90s has been an utter piece of crap.
I know the new thing is to bash BMW and Mercedes (well, not really new, but gaining popularity). That's fine. I never was a big BMW fan either until I got to drive one a lot.
And, having spent a lot of time driving both a 1999 and 2003 BMW 540i I would have to whole heartedly disagree with you.
0-60 in 5.9
Fast isn't everything. (Score:1, Offtopic)
Maybe I'm just biased, because I've only really driven big old Citroens with the hydraulic suspension for the past five years. You can run over speed bu
Re:Fast isn't everything. (Score:2)
How do you mean, fast? (Score:3, Funny)
If your metric is moving around data, as opposed to how many no-ops you can do a second while waiting for your data to get there.
Re:How do you mean, fast? (Score:1)
Re:news? (Score:2)
It's something that simple people, without a white form, a microscope, and 500 million budget, can work on, and make better.
Undoubtfully many advances that have been made for clustering, will be used in many other aspects of computing. Even supercomputer will benefit from them.
imagine (Score:3, Funny)
Candle Cluster (Score:3, Funny)
Happy Anniversary... (Score:5, Funny)
actually... (Score:2, Interesting)
1. step 1: [topic], step 2: ?, step 3: profit!
2. natalie portman/hot grits
3. in soviet russia, [inversion of topic] you!
4. cowboy neal [action]
5. beowulf cluster
6. goatse guy
7. [technology/entity] is dying!
just curious...
ed
Re:actually... (Score:3, Funny)
9. Profit!!
Re:Happy Anniversary... (Score:2)
Damn merkins.
premature (Score:2)
(checking calendar)
tomorrow.
Re:Happy Anniversary... (Score:1)
I, for one.. * click *
goatse * click *
* click *
I own a Cray, you insensi... * more clicks *
shit, I need to update my jokes!
BlueGene (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:BlueGene (Score:5, Insightful)
So once again, it comes down to the types of jobs, and how much you are willing to pay to get those jobs done in a hurry! A Cluster is still great, I have just completed some jobs that consumed over 12 years of CPU time, in 1 week of wall-clock time!
Re:BlueGene (Score:1)
He's pretty much dead on the money there. "Beowulf" in the strictest sense doesn't have Myrinet though, only commodity parts like 100 or 1000 Mb Ethernet. In these configurations, any latency bound application will be horrible (typically fine grained parallelism, lots of messages, typically small, being transferred). The latency of 1GbE vs 100MbE isn't that much different and both are an order of magnitude or more slower than Myrinet or any of the high
Re:BlueGene (Score:2)
I doubt it's UP, most probably 2xSMP, so 312 nodes and about $1M. Which sounds reasonable for 12 years worth of computing in two weeks.
Re:BlueGene (Score:3, Insightful)
Anywhere from "terrible" to "almost not bad", depending on how much you're willing to pay for the interconnect netwo
Re:BlueGene (Score:2)
The difference between a commodity cluster and something like blue-gene is only a half-step. The codes that run well on blue-gene are MORE like the codes ru
You did not take this thought to the end... (Score:2)
And if you code your application for MPI you can debug/test/optimize it on a cheap cluster. THEN when you start running into communication latency and problems too large to be solved on commodity hardware you can recompile your code on big(ger) iron, like Blue Gene/L.
Paul B.
Beowulf seems older than that (Score:5, Funny)
...doesn't it to you? I mean how long have you been sick of the "imagine a beowulf cluster of those" comments? Doesn't seem like only 10 years would make me that sick of it.
Re:Beowulf seems older than that (Score:3, Funny)
Depends... it only took 4 weeks for Floridians to get real sick of hurricanes. :-)
Re:Beowulf seems older than that (Score:3, Interesting)
About 24 hours, actually. The first night was ok because the power had only gone out a few hours previously and it was still really windy out. As a result, the house remained cool.
By the following night, the winds where gone, the house had been without an air conditioner for 24 hours and it was really, really humid. After 7 days, there are no words to describe how thoroughly fed up I was with Hurricanes
Then, two week
Passé? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Passé? (Score:2)
Re:Passé? (Score:1)
It's possible (given how powerful GPU's in graphics cards have become) that one day we will get to see
*smaller* clusters as all of that "wasted" power in the GPU gets reused for crunching.
But, Don Becker didn't invent this stuff. If anything
I'm more grateful that he was masochistic enough to practically be a one man code engine creating all of the ethernet support for linux...
The first "cluster" I read about was one in Byte
a long
The choice between Beowulf and Big Iron... (Score:4, Insightful)
Any kind of networking solution between computers will never be as fast as a hard-wired bus can be. If a lot of communication between nodes is required, you will spend more time waiting than computing, which shoots efficiency to hell.
Re:The choice between Beowulf and Big Iron... (Score:5, Insightful)
The more complex a problem gets, the more likely you need one supercomputer as opposed to a cluster.
I'm not sure it is that simple. For some problems (e.g. Monte Carlo [wikipedia.org] simulations), a more complex problem means more individual nodes are required, with very little inter-node communication. For other kinds of problem (finite element methods, maybe?), you're probably right.
In other words, the physical structure of the solution depends on the kinds of algorithms that you intend to run: there's not just one `correct' answer.
imagine (Score:5, Funny)
Re:imagine (Score:1)
Re:imagine (Score:2)
Re:imagine (Score:1)
Re:imagine (Score:2)
Re:imagine (Score:3, Funny)
With a little editing that could describe most /. readers:
imagine a lone geek sitting by himself not talking to anyone...
(obligatory) (Score:1)
Winterware (Score:2, Interesting)
I've never seen a beowulf cluster personally. I've never run anything on one. However I do know that it made "supercomputing" more affordable. That in itself is a feat -- and a primary goal of most Open Source software. A proverbial "Hats off" to the open source hackeres out there. Thanks...and keep hacking.
Now if I can gather enough old
Re:Winterware (Score:1)
In Soviet Russia... (Score:2, Funny)
On par? Yes and no (Score:5, Informative)
Quote from the article: *snip!*
Re:On par? Yes and no (Score:2, Informative)
loaded question (Score:2)
Mr. Becker has an interest in you using a penguin computing setup, rather than either Dell, or Cray. I must, however, admire the way he didn't get sucked into the interviewer
On Par Or No, Vector CPUs Got Cluster-fucked (Score:2)
AFAIK, the cluster proponents sold the NSF and the DoD's HPC office on the idea that they would solve the limitations of "pile of PC" systems in software, the result being that both organizations basically mandated clusters for all new projects. Imagine the CIO of an aerospace firm requiring WinNT henceforth for any a
Re:On par? Yes and no (Score:2)
Only advantage it (currently) has is a custom HyperTransportInfiniband bridge.
And yes, Cray is trying to claim it's different than a "Linux cluster".
Just out of curiosity... (Score:2, Interesting)
I was wondering if it is possible to make some sort of cluster out of old computers I have lying around? Nothing spectacular, just hooking up 3-4 old P2's to make a game server or something of the sort. Is there software out there to do this?
Has anyone had any experience with this?
Just a thought...
Re:Just out of curiosity... (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Just out of curiosity... (Score:1)
Cool... thanks. Thats exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. Does anyone have any experience with this? I was wondering what kinds of applications would benefit from a small cluster of relatively slow processors? For example, what single processor would be equivalent to a cluster of 3 P2 300MHz? It sounds like it could be a fun cheap project and a cool way to see how this stuff works on a small scale.
Re:Just out of curiosity... (Score:2)
May a 500-600 MHz CPU. Tops. Seriously. Mainly because of the following - that old computer probably has a 10Mbit NIC, maybe 100Mbit. Can you say latency?
If the game server you want to run is multi-threaded then you _might_ be able to run different threads on different nodes (using say OpenMosix). It'll probably be slow as hell because of the latency. Probably slower than running it on machine.
Look, clusters are good for running paral
Re:Just out of curiosity... (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.rocksclusters.org/ [rocksclusters.org].
Quite a few people have built Rocks clusters out of a bunch of old computers.
Disclaimer: I work with the folks who created this.
It's not just about speed and massively parallel (Score:5, Informative)
To be considered a "supercomputer," it also needs enough CONTIGUOUS MEMORY SPACE to hold the massive amounts of data associated with true "supercomputing." So far, no cluster has met that requirement.
Re:It's not just about speed and massively paralle (Score:2, Informative)
However, problems that are embaressingly parallel can be handled by a cluster very adequately for a fraction of the cost of a traditional supercomputer. I don't know that you can ignore this class of problems and say that clusters aren't "true 'supercomputi
Re:It's not just about speed and massively paralle (Score:2)
To be considered a "supercomputer," it also needs enough CONTIGUOUS MEMORY SPACE to hold the massive amounts of data associated with true "supercomputing."
Well, that's one way of seeing it I guess. A way not shared by most people in supercomputing, I might add.
Re:It's not just about speed and massively paralle (Score:2)
I've only been to one supercomputing conference, but when I was there most all of the people there ran clusters and the top500 [top500.org] site (although this list is produced by the same supercomputing conference people) lists many clusters there.
In other words, where does this contiguous memory requirement come from?
FUD, FUD, and wrong. Crey stockholder eh? (Score:5, Informative)
Let's address this first: there are two common memory architectures, distributed memory (a cluster) and shared memory (a 'traditional' supercomputer). Each can emulate the other. Saying a cluster doesn't have enough memory, presumably at each node, is really saying: "I don't really understand message passing."
This would be more important if datasets were actually large. Unfortunatly for your argument they aren't. A handfull of nodes and they'll hold the whole simulation easily in memory (albeit it'd take years to run because there's so few CPUs at work.)
How would I know? Well, I work with the Center for Simulation of Advanced Rockets aka CSAR at UIUC, one of five DoE ACSI sites in the country. I manage their supercomputer, which is getting upgraded from 200 P3-class dual proc PCs to 640 dual proc Xserve G5s. Before that I was a grad student working with them, albeit not on the CSAR simulation but instead on a related grant, the CPSD.
Now, there are computing problems which clusters aren't good at (or at least that's the traditional claim. My master's thesis and advisor would seem to dispute that this is actually the case.) However, most problems as the interview says, run just fine on clusters. Physical simulations (which covers CSAR's rockets to the national labs nuclear weapon research to hurricane/weather simulation, all the way down to protein folding and atomic and sub-atomic scale crystal formation simulation) need to know about what's in the area you're working on, and what's in nearby areas.
Occasionally you'll find an oddball like galactic simulation (or molecular dynamics) that needs to compute gravity across the whole universe. Fortunatly we have multigrid methods and a friendly gravity equation to solve this problem: get real data from those near you. Average those far from you and use that instead.
Then of course there's the idea that even "traditional" supercomputer problems that don't run well on clusters can be run efficiently on clusters IF you move beyond 1 process per CPU. Load up 10, 20, 100, 1000 little workers on a processor. Get fast context switching between them (not OS level!). Use message passing rather than shared memory (locking, ick!) to communicate. One worker blocked waiting for network data? Process the next one! If you've tuned things right you'll find you always have work to do.
Sounds crazy? Supercomputing '02 didn't think so: http://charm.cs.uiuc.edu/research/moldyn/
Re:help me out (Score:2)
Problem then is you're limited to a 'memory speed' equal to NFS. Clusters already want the fasted network connection possible. Making cache available only via internet speeds with cat5 speeds, ugh.
That said, it's always useful to have a big mothertrucking hard disk mounted via NFS, mostly for when the run is done and you want to gather/centralize the data or post-data visualization products.
Half of my cluster hassles
How fast will it run Doom3? (Score:2, Interesting)
In all seriousness though, what is the ratio of cluster to big iron in supercomputing nowadays? I know a clusters can scale out to a lot of FLOPS, but what is the highest FLOPS processor available?
New coolness (Score:1)
Imagine.... (Score:5, Funny)
It's easy if you try,
No adapter below us,
Above us only loopback,
Imagine all the computers
computing for themselves...
Imagine there's no internet,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to download or upload for,
No porn too,
Imagine all the computers
computing pi in peace...
Imagine no tokens,
I wonder if you can,
No need for ethernet or tcpip,
A brotherhood of computer,
Imagine all the computers
Sharing nothing at all...
You may say I'm a dreamer,
but I'm the only one,
I hope some day you'll leave us,
And the computers will computer alone.
copyright violation (Score:2)
Cluster Schedulers (Score:2, Informative)
http://gridengine.sunsource.net/
Otherwise known for... (Score:3, Informative)
newbie question re: ease of management (Score:2, Interesting)
At the end of the article, the comment is made that one reason for setting up a cluster is ease of management (for updates, applications, etc.). Can anyone with experience comment on whether this is true or not, with the way clustering exists today? I have no experience at all with cluster, and I'm wondering if this is something I should look into to ease administrative burdens?
Lets imagine the oposite (Score:1)
I think they did this in soviet russia.
openMosix (Score:3, Informative)
Re:openMosix (Score:1)
Re:openMosix (Score:2)
Re:openMosix (Score:1)
Re:openMosix (Score:2)
Re:openMosix (Score:2)
2. Not even worth...
3. MPI/PVM and openMosix are like bread and butter - they compliment each other to use the available resources in the most efficient manner.
Did I just get trolled?
Thank you Donald (Score:1)
Thanks,
Eric
Re:Thank you Donald (Score:1)
Why Beowulf? (Score:3, Insightful)
PVM at least scales incredibly well: 25 machines rendering a povray scene take just a fraction over 1/25 the time taken to render it on one machine. I haven't tested MPI yet.
Re:Why Beowulf? (Score:1)
Re:Why Beowulf? (Score:2)
Back in the mid-90s we were using PVM (on Solaris boxes) in sequence (DNA/protein) similarity search applications, among other things. It scaled very nicely, provided the target sequence database was distributed across the network also. Very easy to implement and not too difficult to administer, either.
Re:Why Beowulf? (Score:2)
Most clusters are used to run MPI applications.
There's no hard line between "cluster" and "networked independent computers". If you wan't to make some distinction, it could be that cluster nodes are pretty homogenous, and the cluster has a dedicated network instead of just using the office LAN.
Re:Why Beowulf? (Score:2)
clusterknoppix (Score:2, Informative)
Why use beowulf? (Score:2, Interesting)
Rocks (Score:4, Interesting)
You can build a working cluster, starting with the hardware and installation CD-ROMs, in minutes; see http://servers.linux.com/servers/04/08/27/1943227
Disclaimer: I work with the folks who created Rocks.
This is disturbing... (Score:2)
Because it looks like NONE of us remember Amoeba. Amoeba was a free* download, and could be used as an add-on to a *nix filesystem - I think, at the time, I was using Unixware7.0 or somesuch.
As for me, I'd say that Donald's larger and more reaching contribution to *nix would be the network drivers that he wrote (3cX0Y cards, and the Tulip drivers come to mind).
* "Free", here, as in beer definitely, and speech likely. I think that the source was provided, but cannot remember.
SearchEnterpriseLinux (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Obligatory... (Score:1, Funny)
Oh yeah and *groan* with regard to that joke! =-P
Re:Obligatory... (Score:1, Redundant)
Re:Obligatory... (Score:4, Funny)
Ok
Re:Obligatory... (Score:2, Funny)