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Microsoft Patents Software Linux

Ballmer on Linux 472

theodp writes "'In the Linux world, nobody stands behind patent claims,' warned Steve Ballmer, saying that Microsoft customers would be protected from the $550 million Eolas patent infringement judgment. 'I'm not trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt,' said the CEO of the company who earlier cried wolf about breaking IE in the wake of the Eolas judgment, prompting the W3C to go to bat for the software giant."
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Ballmer on Linux

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  • by Allen Zadr ( 767458 ) * <Allen@Zadr.gmail@com> on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:31PM (#10142790) Journal

    I like that last line of the article.
    "I just think people should go out and research this for themselves".

    Good idea, coming from a company that regularly commissions independant researchers to prove their point of the day.

    My assessment (not that you asked)?...
    Well, my research showed that patent infringement issues in Linux will more than likely get the same treatment as GIF files. If something does come up that really is an infringement, it'll stink for a few years, and then it will fizzle away as developers agree that there's a better solution than the patented one anyway.

    Then again, I've already got my company running on Linux servers, so perhaps it's just wishful thinking on my part. *shrugs*.

    • Necessity is a Mutha (Score:5, Interesting)

      by ackthpt ( 218170 ) * on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:38PM (#10142853) Homepage Journal
      Avast, ye bloomin' brine-swiggin' picaroon!

      it'll stink for a few years, and then it will fizzle away as developers agree that there's a better solution than the patented one anyway.

      Which, when you think about it, has been the intiative behind lots of great development, if you don't like the toll road, dig your own and many fine things have come of this. Further browsers like Mozilla and Opera progress while IE stagnates.

      • by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @07:36PM (#10144974)
        Imagine if that was patented. It's been shown to be the fastest sort possible, if I remember right. Or how about all those patents apple has on Font Rendering? There's lots of stuff in Math that there's only one way of doing right. That's why you weren't allowed to patent algorythms in the past.
        • by Gleef ( 86 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @09:36PM (#10145638) Homepage
          rsilvergun asks:
          What about quicksort? Imagine if that was patented.
          Quicksort was (first?) published in the Communications of the Association for Computing Machinery in July, 1961. It's safe to assume it was invented before then. Any patent on it would have long expired.

          It's been shown to be the fastest sort possible, if I remember right
          On some sets of data, perhaps. There are many sorts that are comparibly fast (faster for some data, slower than others). If you restrict the kind of data you're sorting, there are much faster algorithms.

          One of my favorites is the Radix Sort [wikipedia.org], which was half invented by IBM, and half organically developed by their punch card tabulators towards the beginning of the 20th century (generating statistics for the US Census). If you're sorting on a numeric key field with a fixed number of digits, you do a fast stable sort on the least significant digit of the key, and then sort on the next most significant, and so on. You can sort large amounts of data in O(nk) time rather than O(nlogn) for Quicksort, plus, you can use the sort by hand on physical objects, Quicksort is hard to do without a computer.
          • by Bush Pig ( 175019 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @10:34PM (#10145929)
            Off-topic, I know, but quicksort is only quicker than others (sometimes) on data that can be held in memory. If you need to sort massive amounts of data, algorithms based on the multi-tape sort-merge (see Knuth) are much, much, much faster.

          • [Radix Sort] You can sort large amounts of data in O(nk) time rather than O(nlogn) for Quicksort
            However, k is of the same order as logn.

            Radix Sort, Merge Sort, Tree Sort. All order of n log n.
            Radix sort has the advantage of being totally predictable and doable with exteremely limited local processing ability, like on a card sorter which can only examine on column of one card at a time. Essentially a one byte working memory. A card sorter can sort alpha. Two passes per column, second pass on the zone punch
    • by ron_ivi ( 607351 ) <sdotno@NOSpAM.cheapcomplexdevices.com> on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:43PM (#10142910)
      "I'm not trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt," Ballmer said. "I just think people should go out and research this for themselves."

      I'd love it if proprietary vendors allowed us the capability to evaluate the risks ourselves. I'll believe the story about proprietary being safer only after Microsoft lets customers audit their source to let me verify that their closed-source stuff doesn't infringe on patents I may be worried about. Note that they let important customers audit their source for security [computerworld.com] reasons. Losing mission critical infrastructor because a vendor didn't have the rights to it could be even more harmful to my business than a security hole (which I presume would be easily patched).

      If my company depends on a closed-source application, and that application infringes on someone elses patent, I wouldn't want that software yanked out from under me. At least in an open source environment I can understand that the offending parts could be coded around. With closed source, it's more likely the vendor will have to stop providing the software. Also, in the open source case, there's a better likelyhood that people have scoured the source code looking for infringing patents.

      So far most of the big vendors, MSFT included, have a pretty weak concept of indemnification - they'll cover purchases prices, and the like. Heck even Gentoo.org'll probably indemnify you the cost of the purchase price. Unless they start offering far better indemnification (cover the costs of migrating off their infringing software to an alternative), I'm better off with open source.

      • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:45PM (#10142932)
        With closed source, it's more likely the vendor will have to stop providing the software. Also, in the open source case, there's a better likelyhood that people have scoured the source code looking for infringing patents.

        Looked at that way, Linux is probably the very safest Operating System out there from a patent point of view, because undoubtably Baystar/SCO and friends would have searched for any such patents critical to Linux and tried to acquire them.

        I challange Balmer to hire someone to go through the Windows source code searchcing for IP violations with the same dilligence SCO has used looking for ways to own Linux.

        • by jrexilius ( 520067 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @12:29AM (#10146582) Homepage
          They are being issued lots of patents. they are attempting to build a large patent portfolio around longhorn. the patents very well could be invalid but the legal cost of fighting the sheer volume of them is the detrent MS is looking for.

          Patent 1000 things about opening a file, 750 may be invalid, but sue people on all 1000 with your $40 billion fund and make SCO, RIAA, MPAA turn green with envy,

    • by dpilot ( 134227 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @08:28PM (#10145248) Homepage Journal
      Mono scares the living daylights out of me.

      Given the triviality and obviousness of patents being issued today, there's practically no way Mono can be non-infringing. Yet it's even more dangerous to check for it, because then you get into a triple-indemnity situation. Letting Mono burrow its way into Linux culture, software, infrastructure, and support is ASKING for trouble a few years down the road. It's putting a giant SUE ME sign out.

      Besides, "Microsoft done right" isn't aiming that high. We could do better.
    • by irc.goatse.cx troll ( 593289 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @08:58PM (#10145409) Journal
      I'd say the GIF issue shows that patents matter much more in linux than in windows. How many people do you know with windows machines that are ENTIRELY legit/licensed? Not a single mp3? No copyrighted images(including porn)? No expired shareware?

      How many OSS projects exist for the sole purpose of getting around a bad(patented, etc) piece of software? Hint: OpenSSH, zlib, tons others.

      Who cares more about patents again?

  • by ackthpt ( 218170 ) * on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:31PM (#10142793) Homepage Journal
    "I'm not trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt,' said the CEO of the company [Steve Ballmer]"

    There's a first time for everything.

    • by Yohahn ( 8680 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:46PM (#10142943)
      He's trying the jedi mind trick:

      "This fear, uncertainty and doubt isn't Fear uncertainty and doubt! There is nothing to see here. Be afraid, uncertain and doubt Free products." (waves hand)

    • Fired up (Score:5, Funny)

      by commodoresloat ( 172735 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:50PM (#10142979)
      "I'm as fired up now as I've ever been in 24 years at Microsoft," Ballmer said.

      Eyewitnesses at the conference where Ballmer made this statement noted that he started running around the stage trying to rile up the crowd by shouting "Patent lawyers! Patent lawyers! Patent lawyers! Patent lawyers!"

    • Maybe he's spreading Linux's FUD: Fanaticism and Unwavering Devotion?
    • by RobertB-DC ( 622190 ) * on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:54PM (#10143016) Homepage Journal
      "I'm not trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt,' said the CEO of the company [Steve Ballmer]"
      - There's a first time for everything.


      Or maybe it's akin to the old Hee Haw [wikipedia.org] skit:

      Well, we're not the kind that go 'round spreading rumors,
      Why really, we're just not the gossippy kind!
      Oh, you'll never hear one of us repeating gossip.
      So you'd better be sure and listen close the first time.


      He's telling the truth. He's not spreading FUD. He's originating it.
    • Think about it. Who has spend more on spreading the Linux name and general awareness of the possibilties of switching to an other OS? IBM? Nah. HP? Get real? The linux distros? No way.

      The answer of course is MS. How many people have seen the name Linux for the first time in an MS ad or press release?

      You don't see car company A constantly talking about car company B. Imagine your a store owner on a triple A location selling X. Are you then really going to talk to the customer about you really are much much

  • by Space cowboy ( 13680 ) * on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:31PM (#10142800) Journal
    It's interesting to note the arguments on groklaw [groklaw.net] that an OS strategy might actually have *less* to fear than a closed-source one, compared to Mr Balmer's "It's not really FUD, honest" intellectual property FUD.

    Also, reading the article, either the writer is unsympathetic to MS, or Balmer is really putting out some mixed messages ... eg:
    "Ballmer scoffed at arguments that his company's operating system creates a computing monoculture" vs his statement "Microsoft's platforms offer better interoperability with the company's other technology".

    Sounds like he's been spinning so much, he's dizzy :-)

    Simon.
  • by teamhasnoi ( 554944 ) <teamhasnoi@yahoo. c o m> on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:31PM (#10142801) Journal
    "Please get off, you're crushing me, you sweaty bastard!"
  • Patnets do not apply to end users only to maker/vendors..same as for copyrights

    Try again Mr Ballmer, I suck at Patent Law...
    • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:53PM (#10143007)
      Of course that's bullshit.

      Often vendors/makers don't even have the right to sublicense patented techcnology to the end users, like the case of Cognos, who lost the lawsuit with Timeline despite the fact it was Microsoft who had infringed [winnetmag.com]

      Microsoft originally licensed the patents with the understanding that it would be able to sublicense the patents to their customers and to third party software developers who use Microsoft software and tools. Microsoft intended to provide this sublicense to its customers for free to ensure that the patent claims didn't directly affect customers. Microsoft sources told me that for this privilege, the company paid substantially more than other vendors for its license, although the exact figure isn't public. Microsoft filed suit against Timeline shortly after signing the license agreement in June 1999 because Timeline claimed that Microsoft didn't have the sublicensing rights. See the Microsoft PressPass article at http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/1999/jul9 9/timelinepr.asp for additional information about the suit Microsoft filed against Timeline. In December 2002, the Seattle Supreme Court ruled in favor of Timeline on this matter.

  • FUD? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by FriedTurkey ( 761642 ) * on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:32PM (#10142805)

    "I'm not trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt," Ballmer said

    Fear - Ballmer argued that companies should be wary of the lack of indemnity from lawsuits, such as the suit filed by The SCO Group Inc. against DaimlerChrysler AG, IBM, Novell Inc. and others over parts of the Linux operating system that SCO claims infringe on elements of the Unix operating system that it owns.

    Uncertainty - "In the Linux world, nobody stands behind patent claims," he said, noting that Microsoft could be forced to swallow a $550 million judgement if it loses its ongoing case with Eolas Technologies Inc., but that its customers would be protected.

    Doubt - On the touchy issue of security, Ballmer also dismissed the notion that Linux is more secure than Windows, saying that Linux would be attacked just as frequently as Windows if the open source operating system had as large a share of the operating system market as Windows.
    • Doubt - On the touchy issue of security, Ballmer also dismissed the notion that Linux is more secure than Windows, saying that Linux would be attacked just as frequently as Windows if the open source operating system had as large a share of the operating system market as Windows.

      Does this represent a plan for fixing the holes that still exist after SP 2? Say, give up market share to Linux so that Windows presents less of a target?
      • Re:FUD? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by cHALiTO ( 101461 ) <elchalo AT gmail DOT com> on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:49PM (#10142963) Homepage
        He's right, linux would be attacked just as frequently as windows.

        The interesting question would be if it'd also be 0wned just as much.

        • He's wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)

          by schon ( 31600 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @04:39PM (#10143568)
          He's right, linux would be attacked just as frequently as windows.

          One word: APACHE

          Which gets attacked more, Apache or IIS. Which has more market share?
    • Re:FUD? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Aadain2001 ( 684036 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:40PM (#10142879) Journal
      Doubt - On the touchy issue of security, Ballmer also dismissed the notion that Linux is more secure than Windows, saying that Linux would be attacked just as frequently as Windows if the open source operating system had as large a share of the operating system market as Windows.

      I always love reading that one. Sure, it'll be attacked just as much, but like shooting a BB gun at a person in a suit of armor, they won't get through nearly as much as when shoot at that poor naked man (MS Windows).

    • I always like to think of FUD as Fucked Up Data, which is what MS shows in their reports. Works well so far.
    • Re:FUD? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by kalidasa ( 577403 ) * on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:50PM (#10142982) Journal
      Anybody else notice that the quote cited by parent under "uncertainty" presupposes that OS customers would be lawsuit targets of patents? Under what legal theory do you sue the customer of an infringing product? If the customer has customized the product is what I guess is the legal theory behind this statement - in other words, if you have the source code of an application you're using and you modify it and re-release your changes into the world, you'd be liable for patent claims against that code. Gives both the SCO lawsuits and Microsoft's own recent patent hunger a whole new sinister meaning - if you're not a Microsoft customer, you'll be a Microsoft/SCO/other "patent"-holder target. Upping the ante from BSA, I guess.
      • If you wanted to, the "legal theory" one would invoke for suing a customer using an infringing software product would be straight up title 35, part iii, sec. 271(a) which reads : "Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the United States or imports into the United States any patented invention during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent."

        That's not to say that users would be sued more oft

    • FUD for Dummies (Score:3, Insightful)

      by ackthpt ( 218170 ) *

      "I'm not trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt," Ballmer said

      Fear - Ballmer argued that companies should be wary of the lack of indemnity from lawsuits, such as the suit filed by The SCO Group Inc. against DaimlerChrysler AG, IBM, Novell Inc. and others over parts of the Linux operating system that SCO claims infringe on elements of the Unix operating system that it owns.

      But don't worry about on a weekly basis your computer and all your precious data is at risk thanks to our security holes.

  • by Neil Blender ( 555885 ) <neilblender@gmail.com> on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:33PM (#10142814)
    "Here at Microsoft, we spread duf(TM)."
  • He does got a point (Score:5, Informative)

    by Koyaanisqatsi ( 581196 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:34PM (#10142818)
    'In the Linux world, nobody stands behind patent claims'

    He does got a point here. And that's one of the (many) reasons why software patents are evil. Read more here [wikipedia.org].
  • Blatant Lie (Score:5, Informative)

    by Compholio ( 770966 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:36PM (#10142833)
    Microsoft CEO says 'in Linux world, nobody stands behind patent claims'

    IBM, HP, Sun, and others have ALL either stood behind or promised to stand behind their Linux patent interests. Ballmer's statement is a blatant lie and he knows it.
    • Re:Blatant Lie (Score:2, Insightful)

      PR is the same in corporate politics as it is in government politics. Say whatever you want that supports your position.

      Sites that like you will spin it in a good way. People reading those sites will continue to like you.

      Sites that don't like you will spin it in a bad way. People reading those sites will continue to dislike you.

      The only real way to convert people from one camp to another is individuals reaching out to individuals...I'd sooner trust someone I know personally about a subject than I woul
    • Re:Blatant Lie (Score:3, Insightful)

      by killjoe ( 766577 )
      Have you ever read a statement from Ballmer that didn't contain at least one lie? The man is a pathalogical liar.
  • no fud? (Score:5, Informative)

    by xlyz ( 695304 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:37PM (#10142839) Journal

    In the Linux world, nobody stands behind patent claims

    what about OSRM [osriskmanagement.com]?
  • just my 2 cents (Score:4, Interesting)

    by erotic_pie ( 796522 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:37PM (#10142842) Homepage
    just the fact that microsoft so quickly denounces Linux should tell you something
  • by joeldg ( 518249 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:37PM (#10142844) Homepage
    (as tux shoots at his feet)

    "In the next ten years, you're going to see more positive change than in the last ten," Ballmer said.

    yea.. he will be out of a job..

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:38PM (#10142846)
    In other news, MS was just granted a patent concerning using TAB to move from Link to Link in a Web Browser: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?patentnu mber=6,785,865 [uspto.gov]
  • by neomac ( 97478 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:38PM (#10142851) Homepage
    Ballmer singled out XML and Web services as the "big breakthrough" of the next decade that will spur innovation.

    Puh-lease. I was at the introduction of XML and CDF back in 1996/7 by Microsoft. They also handed out 4.0 beta disks of IE 4.0 at the event. I think it was called World Wide Live.

    MSFT's gone nowhere fast with XML, while the rest of the developer world embbraced and extended it. They (MSFT) finally decided on a strategy for it what, three years ago? And now it's going to be the next big thing of the coming decade?

    No wonder Linux runs circles around the Redmond Behemoth...
  • Sure, I know that I can completely trust a monkey that works for a completely unbiased software company ;-)
  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:39PM (#10142869)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • I call bullstuff (on Ballmer).

      It's not protection money. They'll just pass the cost on to their customers like every other business. In fact (with a $50 billion cash bank account they are just now starting to dispense to shareholders, etc.) you could argue they already have passed it on to us through inflated prices.

      For all that talk Ballmer goes through about there not being any such thing as a free lunch, you'd think he'd at least have read what his ECON101 text book had to say about it. ;)
  • W3C -- bad wording (Score:5, Informative)

    by southpolesammy ( 150094 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:40PM (#10142875) Journal
    The W3C didn't stick up for Microsoft -- they went after Eolas for applying for and obtaining a patent for a technology that has multitudes of prior art. Had the USPTO simply cared enough to research claims like this, there wouldn't have been the need to debunk this claim. The fact that Microsoft stands to benefit (or at least not lose anything) as a result of the W3C's actions is collateral.
  • I dont buy it (Score:3, Interesting)

    by nurb432 ( 527695 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:41PM (#10142884) Homepage Journal
    I really dont belive that microsoft would step up to the plate to defend a user against a lawsuit due to an IP problem.

    They would fight to keep the offending product on the shelves, but NOT to 'protect' its users..

    And if they loose, you are on your own.

  • by GreenCrackBaby ( 203293 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:41PM (#10142885) Homepage
    On the touchy issue of security, Ballmer also dismissed the notion that Linux is more secure than Windows, saying that Linux would be attacked just as frequently as Windows if the open source operating system had as large a share of the operating system market as Windows.


    You see this argued a lot here on /. as well, and it is such a stupid thing to say. It is a classic case of arguing using a False Analogy http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/falsean.htm [datanation.com]

    The way Linux is designed and the way Windows (especially with integrated IE) is designed are fundamentally different, and one (guess which) is by design more insecure.

    • The way Linux is designed and the way Windows (especially with integrated IE) is designed are fundamentally different, and one (guess which) is by design more insecure

      I agree, for now. What's going to happen in five years when KDE or Gnome developers decide to continue with their fledgling registries? They're not official called a "registry" but it doesn't take a nuclear physicist to figure out where a general system database is going.
  • by GeekZilla ( 398185 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:41PM (#10142887)

    Ballmer said that cutting back on the promised features at least allowed the company to announce a release date for the product, which was a "major accomplishment."

    I am just speechless. I better sit down.
  • Not FUD?! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by metlin ( 258108 ) * on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:41PM (#10142888) Journal
    Not FUD?! What the hell. Every word in his talk was precisely that.

    Despite the focus on the next version of Windows, Microsoft is also working to make its offerings more interoperable with products using other software platforms such as Linux, Unix and XML (Extensible Markup Language), Ballmer said.

    Ahh, wait. Now why do they bother supporting Linux or Unix if they feel that it's not good enough? I would imagine that if you are that confident in how a rival product is shitty, you would just go ahead and not offer support. But MS wants to leverage customers who have Linux and Unix systems, but yet diss Linux. Sheer hypocrisy.

    "If you have two popular operating systems, both will get attacked -- whatever is popular is going to be attacked," he said.

    Yes smartass. But resisting the attack will be the better one, and that will not be based on what's popular. Are they trying to say that Linux is popular, now? Out of the horse's own mouth, eh.

    "In the Linux world, nobody stands behind patent claims," he said, noting that Microsoft could be forced to swallow a $550 million judgement if it loses its ongoing case with Eolas Technologies Inc., but that its customers would be protected.

    "I'm not trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt," Ballmer said. "I just think people should go out and research this for themselves."


    Boo! The only reason the software industry is so messed up by patents is beause big businesses want to resort to their lawyers in case something goes wrong, and not technology. How about building great technology and not resort to cheap practices, for a change?

    Sheesh. I'm fuckin' mad as hell. Not FUD? That's all there is in that.
  • hmm (Score:5, Insightful)

    by helix400 ( 558178 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:41PM (#10142893) Journal
    Is it just me, or does Balmer sound like a desperate lawyer who collects every single possible argument he's heard for Microsoft, and then regurgitates them all at once?
  • software patents (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Saeger ( 456549 ) <farrellj@nOSPam.gmail.com> on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:42PM (#10142897) Homepage
    "'In the Windows proprietary world, almost everybody stands behind intentionally vague, overly-broad, software patent claims,' warned Linux Torvalds, saying that there's much profit to be made by legally enforcing the artificial scarcity of very basic ideas.

    --

  • by Skiron ( 735617 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:43PM (#10142905)
    "If you have two popular operating systems, both will get attacked -- whatever is popular is going to be attacked," he said.

    Huh? Apache httpd gets attacked even though it has the market share of on-line web browsers... fortunately the attacks are looking for M$ IIS holes...
  • I know... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gillbates ( 106458 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:43PM (#10142912) Homepage Journal

    Noting the prevalent use of pen and paper by audience members, Ballmer wondered aloud why the content of his speech was not being captured and translated automatically, while also being synchronized with real-time video and a copy of his Microsoft PowerPoint presentation

    Perhaps it was because no reporter was willing to bet their career on a laptop running Windows XP?

    Ironically, 20 years from now, these reporters will still be able to read their handwritten notes, but Microsoft will have long abandoned the audio and video codecs used to record the speech today...

    And that's assuming that the recording media is still playable. How many people can read 5 1/4" floppies any more?

    In the Linux world, nobody stands behind patent claims," he said, noting that Microsoft could be forced to swallow a $550 million judgement if it loses its ongoing case with Eolas Technologies Inc., but that its customers would be protected.

    This is an abject legal falsehood; a patent ownder can sue the users of the patent if they so desire. They might choose instead to sue Microsoft, but there is no legal indemnification from a patent lawsuit - Microsoft's EULA explicitly denies liability in this regard. And considering that Microsoft's customers have already been sued over patents (Timeline, anyone?), I don't see how he can even believe this truthfully. And to make matters worse, Microsoft has sued its own customers.

    If anything, using Microsoft instead of open source software imposes an even greater risk of patent liability on the users.

    • Re:I know... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by maximilln ( 654768 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:48PM (#10142959) Homepage Journal
      Perhaps it was because no reporter was willing to bet their career on a laptop running Windows XP?

      I chuckled at the same thing but figured it was because no one wanted to risk being dragged out of the room by the FBI for reproducing copyrighted material with a proper license agreement signed by Ballmer, the entire MS legal department, and Bill Gates' dog to boot.
  • Loony toons (Score:5, Funny)

    by RsG ( 809189 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:45PM (#10142924)
    Well, according to SCO, Linux doesn't exist. And the headline for this story is "Ballmer on Linux". So I gotta wonder if he's about to have one of those Wile E Coyote moments where he's standing on nothing and gravity decides to assert itself? ;-)
  • The math is wrong about patents. Think about it: if you infringe on a patent you get fined and are forced to pay royalties. How much? Usually a resonable amount. In the eolas case it seems to be about $1 per copy of IE.

    So, what you you prefer? Pay $1 in the event of a patent - or pay $500 for the program in question?

    (Yes, my numbers are just guesses, but I think you understand my point: paying for a patent infringment, if it happens, is cheaper then buying from someone who will "protect" you.)

  • by Armchair Dissident ( 557503 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:47PM (#10142946)
    Ballmer wondered aloud why the content of his speech was not being captured and translated automatically, while also being synchronized with real-time video and a copy of his Microsoft PowerPoint presentation.

    Because the speech was encoded using WMA Digital Rights Management, restricting the delegates from recording his words except via an audio stream licensed from Microsoft. Extracting audio "snippets" was prohibited by the DRM software, which meant that reporters on radio could either stream his entire speech or none of it.

    A separate license was required to decode the real-time audio, with royalties paid by-the-minute (even modern-day-techno-savy journo's don't want to pay to broadcast Ballmer looking like a monkey) to the owners of the audio-streaming technology, which in this case happened to be Microsoft.

    Finally, the PowerPoint presentation was similarly protected by traditional copyright law (its binary), the DMCA (its digital transmission), and - if it's been XML exported with the latest Office - probably patent law as well.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:48PM (#10142955)
    Microsoft could be forced to swallow a $550 million judgement if it loses its ongoing case with Eolas Technologies Inc., but that its customers would be protected.

    Is he implying that I would have to pay the judgement if Microsoft did not? This is just wrong! End users of Microsoft software are not liable for Microsoft's theft of intellectual property.

    Not surprisingly, a similar misunderstanding of copyright law was the linchpin of SCO's extortion of Linux users. It's not surprising because Microsoft's funding of SCO bought the suit in the first place.

    So, let's see: they don't understand copyright law and they don't understand patent law. Maybe this is why Microsoft is continually being sued for IP infringement!
  • by hey ( 83763 )
    If you really are worried, just get some insurance.
    http://www.osriskmanagement.com/index. shtml
  • Silly (Score:2, Insightful)

    by X3J11 ( 791922 )
    Eventually, hopefully, America will reexamine its patent and copyright laws and realize just how idiotic they are.

    I'm all for protecting an individual's rights as the creator of something (be it software, music, film). But patenting concepts is stupidity in itself.

    I hate Microsoft as much as the next computer literate person, but in this case I hope Microsoft wins.
  • The EFF? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Midnight Thunder ( 17205 ) * on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:54PM (#10143019) Homepage Journal
    So what has the EFF been doing? Nobody in the open source world creates patents, but at least we have the EFF to stand to help us out against these claims. Wasn't the EFF actually helping fight the Eolas patent claim.

    Sure Microsoft has more money to throw at the problems, but then again they also spend their time flooding the system with more unnecessary patents, for whatever reason.
  • by GMFTatsujin ( 239569 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:56PM (#10143044) Homepage
    "In the next ten years, you're going to see more positive change than in the last ten," Ballmer said.

    I agree. I sincerely doubt that SCO will be around in ten years.

  • That's because... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Sebby ( 238625 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @03:56PM (#10143045)
    "nobody stands behind patent claims,' warned Steve Ballmer"

    That's because we all know software patents are bogus.

  • On the touchy issue of security, Ballmer also dismissed the notion that Linux is more secure than Windows, saying that Linux would be attacked just as frequently as Windows if the open source operating system had as large a share of the operating system market as Windows.

    I guess the only arena in which we can verify this is the server market. Anyone have any hard figures on successful attacks against Linux servers vs. those on Windows servers?
  • by ChangeOnInstall ( 589099 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @04:00PM (#10143081)
    I hope they have something really good cooked up, because 1994-2004 is going to be tough to beat. Let's see, we have:

    1. The Web*.
    2. E-Mail*.
    3. Home computers go mainstream.
    4. Win95/98/NT/2000/XP (poke fun all you want, but you can't argue that these weren't a major improvement over what they replaced).
    5. OSS, Linux, GNU, BSD*.
    6. 3D games with realistic jibbing.
    7. (about a dozen more which I'm forgetting)

    * Yes, these were around before 1994, but between 94-04 is when they became tools of the common folk.

  • Great Political Talk (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Uosdwis ( 553687 )
    On the touchy issue of security, Ballmer also dismissed the notion that Linux is more secure than Windows, saying that Linux would be attacked just as frequently as Windows if the open source operating system had as large a share of the operating system market as Windows.


    He fails to mention if attacks would be as successful on attacking Linux as they are Windows. Great way to answer a question without answering it
  • by Stevyn ( 691306 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @04:33PM (#10143486)
    I think at least the top heads at Microsoft are running macs with os X over there. They really have no clue about how windows or linux works for the end user. I'm sure when you're at that level of any company you end up becomming so disconnected from the details of the product you sell. I doubt the Ford executives test drive every new model of a car, but if these cars' tired suddenly blew out on the highway, they'd call in their engineers and ask them what the hell's going on. I don't have any inside sight on how Microsoft works, just a view from the outside like many. For anyone who works there, do these managers at least look at how their products are working and the amount of headaches they cause people all over the world? Or is it all just to get it out the door and market the hell out of it?
  • by Locutus ( 9039 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @05:16PM (#10143966)
    The bat that Steve talks about swinging to protect its MS Window monopoly is the same bat used to pound customers into paying outrageous licensing fees for insecure product. Remember how that kinder gentler Microsoft was/is threatening US School districts with the help of their BSA buddies? Microsoft with ANY bat is not a good thing. Why isn't THIS brought up when Open Source and Microsoft are mentioned in the same session? The BSA would be DOA with FOSS. Or atleast the Microsoft problems which are most of BSA's mandate. IMHO.

    And another thing about this Ballmer guy:
    THIS was nicely worded, as only Microsoft could:
    "If you have two popular operating systems, both will get attacked -- whatever is popular is going to be attacked," Ballmer said.

    The interesting word is "attacked". Notice he didn't say 'broken into'. There is a night and day difference between being attacked and having attacks suceed. And in MS Winodws case, crashing to its knees from almost every attack.

    Microsoft is THE master marketing company and could probably sell an elephant as a duck. Oh wait, they do. ;-)

    LoB
  • by DrHex ( 142347 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @05:46PM (#10144236) Journal
    in overdrive again.

    But Ballmer shed his visionary mantle soon after, taking shots at the open source software development community and warning participants to think twice before adopting open source products like Linux.

    Translation: We're ticked people put software out there that we charge exorbitantly for and they have the nerve to code it better than we do.

    "I'm as fired up now as I've ever been in 24 years at Microsoft," Ballmer said.

    Translation: I've nerver been so damned mad and scared for my own cushy job security in 24 years of being at Microsoft.

    "In the next ten years, you're going to see more positive change than in the last ten," Ballmer said.

    Translation: This keeps up we're going to miss our quarterly projections again and continue to loose our monopolistic stranglehold on the home computing industry that we've had in the last ten over the next ten.

    Ballmer promoted his company's products as a key to that transformation, including the next version of the Windows operating system, dubbed "Longhorn," and the company's .NET computing architecture.

    Poster's commentary: Makes me wanna revive the "Where's the Beef" commercials from over 10 years ago with all the hooplah, smoke and mirrors I keep reading about "Longhorn". I can see it now, They'll start calling computer viruses on "Longborn" (intentional mis-spelling) Mad Cow Disease and we see more countries banning the sale and distribution of Microsoft "beef" possibly.

    Joking about recent news regarding a curtailed list of features in Longhorn, Ballmer said that cutting back on the promised features at least allowed the company to announce a release date for the product, which was a "major accomplishment."

    Poster's commentary: Only at Microsoft would a major overshoot of a release become the joke to them that it is to the rest of us.

    Despite the focus on the next version of Windows, Microsoft is also working to make its offerings more interoperable with products using other software platforms such as Linux, Unix and XML (Extensible Markup Language), Ballmer said.

    Ballmer singled out XML and Web services as the "big breakthrough" of the next decade that will spur innovation.

    "The fact that companies like Oracle (Corp.), IBM (Corp.) and (Microsoft) have bet on an architected approach to interoperability is huge," he said.


    Translation: Since our corporate peers are lining up to kick our butt with Open Source we better buckle and see what all the fuss is about. This is merely another move by Microsoft to catch the last of the waves as the sun sets and they're "Johnny Come-lately" to the next trend.

    While not perfect on security, Microsoft has a defined process for addressing security vulnerabilities, compared with the open source community, which he called "all over the map," when it came to addressing vulnerabilities in Linux, Ballmer said.

    Translation: We better suck it up and realize we have to straighten out our backyard since the Open Source is making so many significant innovations and has an ability to patch their software so fast we don't even get to read the patch update notice before it's done, damn it! It's not far that Open Source has the ability to call on developers "all over the map", woe is us, how can we compete with the world? You can't Stevie, so suck it up and bask in your glory while it lasts.

    "In the Linux world, nobody stands behind patent claims," he said, noting that Microsoft could be forced to swallow a $550 million judgement if it loses its ongoing case with Eolas Technologies Inc., but that its customers would be protected.

    Translation: For them (Open Source), there too many targets. For us, (Microsoft) the litigants have an easy target. Strength in numbers, Steve! *grin*

    "I'm not trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt," Ballmer said. "I just think people should go out and res
  • Finally, Ballmer argued that companies should be wary of the lack of indemnity from lawsuits, such as the suit filed by The SCO Group Inc. against DaimlerChrysler AG, IBM, Novell Inc. and others over parts of the Linux operating system that SCO claims infringe on elements of the Unix operating system that it owns.

    "In the Linux world, nobody stands behind patent claims," he said, noting that Microsoft could be forced to swallow a $550 million judgement if it loses its ongoing case with Eolas Technologies Inc., but that its customers would be protected.

    So far it looks like the courts have generally been handing SCO their ass on a platter, but that's beside the point!

    I'd really like to ask the question, will Ballmer, on behalf of Microsoft, put that in writing? Will Microsoft provide a written guarantee that they will indemnify their customers against claims of infringement by their software? Not from anything I've seen. So far, here is what Microsoft has put in writing:

    From their site, For Business (Windows 2003 Server) [microsoft.com]:

    END-USER LICENSE AGREEMENT FOR MICROSOFT PRE-RELEASE SOFTWARE

    PRERELEASE VERSION OF MICROSOFT WINDOWS SERVER 2003, STANDARD OR ENTERPRISE EDITION FOR AMD64-BIT SYSTEMS [ ]

    15. DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTIES. [ ] MICROSOFT AND ITS SUPPLIERS HEREBY DISCLAIM ALL OTHER WARRANTIES... ALSO, THERE IS NO WARRANTY OR CONDITION OF TITLE, QUIET ENJOYMENT, QUIET POSSESSION, CORRESPONDENCE TO DESCRIPTION OR NON -INFRINGEMENT WITH REGARD TO THE SOFTWARE.

    (Emphasis added)

    And from their site, For Consumer (XP HOME) [microsoft.com]:

    MICROSOFT WINDOWS XP HOME EDITION (RETAIL) END-USER LICENSE AGREEMENT FOR MICROSOFT SOFTWARE [ ]

    16. DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTIES. [ ] Except for the Limited Warranty and to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law, Microsoft and its suppliers provide the Software and support services (if any) AS IS AND WITH ALL FAULTS [ ] ALSO, THERE IS NO WARRANTY OR CONDITION OF TITLE, QUIET ENJOYMENT, QUIET POSSESSION, CORRESPONDENCE TO DESCRIPTION OR NON-INFRINGEMENT WITH REGARD TO THE SOFTWARE.

    (Emphasis added)

    I really don't see where Microsoft is giving anything to people above what Linux is giving, i.e. nothing, except people can see the Linux source code and it is possible if something infringing is present it can be removed.
    "I'm not trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt," Ballmer said. "I just think people should go out and research this for themselves."

    Well, I have researched it for myself and gone right to your company's written EULAs and read them, Mr. Ballmer. Unless and until Microsoft is willing to give (or sell) written indemnification for non-infringement then all your claims represent are a worthless cant of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

    Paul Robinson

  • by mellon ( 7048 ) * on Thursday September 02, 2004 @06:15PM (#10144482) Homepage
    Wasn't it something like two years ago when Microsoft got tagged for patent infringement over their SQL server, and they did not indemnify their users? What does the EULA say? Where's this indeminification Mr. Ballmer is talking about?
  • by cybersekkin ( 536109 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @06:41PM (#10144647)
    It was about a year ago after years of dragging out the case that it was proven the MS SQL 7 was stolen from or illegally used from another company MS response was "we will cover legal cost and suits up to the cost of the product" yeah MS really stand behind their work but the limit is as much as you paid to get it. So by those terms FLOSS is on equal grounds with MS support policy.
  • by serutan ( 259622 ) <snoopdougNO@SPAMgeekazon.com> on Thursday September 02, 2004 @06:43PM (#10144666) Homepage
    Ballmer wondered aloud why the content of his speech was not being captured and translated automatically, while also being synchronized with real-time video and a copy of his Microsoft PowerPoint presentation.

    Mostly they probably didn't think of doing it, which I assume is your point. But even if they did think of it, I doubt that Microsoft declared your speech to be public domain or handed out written authorizations to reproduce it. In today's IP-obsessed, everything-is-copyrighted legal climate, which Microsoft has done a lot to nurture, the risk of infringement is probably a good deterrent against using these nifty technologies to record and reproduce anyone's output, other than from public employees and political candidates.
  • Fine. (Score:3, Funny)

    by cfuse ( 657523 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @01:22AM (#10146756)
    'I'm not trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt,' said the CEO

    Whatever, just don't dance again.

You are always doing something marginal when the boss drops by your desk.

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