City of Munich Freezes Its Linux Migration 523
Jan0815 writes "Yesterday I received disturbing news from the CTO of Munich, Wilhelm Hoegner. As previously mentioned, there is a rising concern that software patents could stifle development of open source worldwide. FFII has complete coverage of what is going on in Europe." (FFII stands for Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure.) Reader jmt(tm) writes "The call for bids was supposed to be published in late July, but the Munich Green Party had pointed out about 50 possible patent conflicts which the city wants to evaluate before moving on."
...EU software patents? (Score:3, Interesting)
How come?
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:4, Insightful)
Fuck right the hell off, man.
"thinkers got to eat."
How does primate requirements apply to the issue? So does everybody else - in fact, the explicit justification for IP is the notion (unproven and demonstrated to be false by current corporate behavior) that patents will allow IP to be developed specifically to assist the species to gain access to new knowledge. The actual effect has been the opposite.
"They shouldn't have to hope nobody else can figure out what they're doing and sell it better than they can"
Why? Other people have to eat, too. Where in human evolution is it stated that "thinkers" should be immune from evolution and primate competition like everybody else?
Also, "thinkers" should be smart enough to hire people who CAN market their stuff - which is the way it's actually done, if you haven't noticed.
"(which wouldn't be hard...inventors are as bad at marketing as markeeters are at invention)"
Which is why they hire marketers to market their inventions - which is done anyway.
Your arguments are ruminant evacuation.
Intellectual property is an oxymoron and an attempt to extend contract principles over basic property principles - in other words, an attempt to use coercion to justify monopoly profit without effort.
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:5, Informative)
There are thousands of software developers who read slashdot. Find one who says "I found this great algorithm in the patent literature". Or find a reference to one on a web page. Or find someone who knows someone whose third cousin once heard about a software developer saying that. Until then, shut up about software "patents" increasing knowledge.
I put "patents" in quotes because the EU hasn't made them legal yet, and they've never been legal in the U.S. The Supreme Court has ruled each and every time that software is not statutory material for a patent. And their most recent decision (Diamond v. Diehr, 1981) cautioned that you couldn't make nonstatutory material statutory by changing the wording, etc. See section IV of the majority opinion.
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:3, Insightful)
Like Einstein:
"Fuck you man, I'm tellin' ya - E=mc^2"
Or Gauss:
"Shit man - I think I'm gonna call this coinky-dink li'l theorem the Theorema Egregium"
Or Blake:
"Oh Rose, thou art freakin' sick man"
I suggest you return to Earth - you are not a thinker - you are a run-of-the-mill programmer, tossing off mundane and trivial little algorithmic ideas that are no more than pr
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:3, Interesting)
Selling ideas.
I am not very rich. But I am comfortable. My company is small and has never had trouble competing with our larger competitors, because our R&D budget is higher than our marketing budget.
Maybe you should realize that just because you want something to be true doesn't mean you can make one sided statements like "software patents are helping businesses stamp out competition from those with less money." I *AM* those with less money. Software patents are helping me compet
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm pretty certain it's the latter, even if you yourself can't see that. Ask yourself, what have you done that is truly new and innovative in software that noone else in the industry didn't already think of or would find obvious if they were working towards similar goals.
That I, an average programmer, an average thinker, of average creativity, am always coming up with things that violate patents, just in the normal course of my job, tells me that most of these patents are obvious. That this is such a problem for software developers tells me that patents on software is inherently flawed.
And as for my saying, "go fucking die", I was just responding to you being a complete asshole. You were the first to start throwing "fuck you"'s around.
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:3, Interesting)
Bull fucking shit. I see where you're coming from now. You're some lame that "invents" something that is fucking obvious to anybody who spends ten minutes considering whatever problem your "innovative" software is trying to solve. You put it out for $100. Somebody else says they can do it b
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:3, Interesting)
"Utility patents may be granted to anyone who invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, article of manufacture, or compositions of matters, or any new useful improvement thereof.
Design patents may be granted to anyone who invents a new, original, and ornamental design for an article of manufacture"
Software can receive patents for design (interface appearance or overall look and feel, such as Apple's Aqua UI patents) or utility (new algorithmic functions but also new ove
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:5, Insightful)
If your company cannot comepte in the market without patents, then your company deserves to go down in flames.
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:5, Insightful)
But it's a reality that doesn't have to exist.
Linux being abandoned in Europe because software patents "have" to be introduced would be a bit like the cure for cancer being discovered and promptly suppressed because cancer "has" to be incurable.
There is no sight more demoralizing for the idealist than seeing work on the construction of the wall of reality speed up as he approaches.
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem isn't software patents. The problem is that some software patents are just rediculous and they should be given to someone that at least tries to implement the idea.
Just imagine, you spend years coming up with something that ou think is great. Some big company sees it and copies it. They have the money to promote it and they corner the market. You've wasted a couple of years without any return.
Most of the patent litigation that gets reported on slashdot is usually the other way around, heck most of it is just the potential of a patent to be used in a bad way, but there are cases where the little guy that poured his heart and soul into something was able to prevent a bigger company from ripping him off.
Granted, if you're just someone who doesn't innovate, just copies other ideas, then you don't want software patents.
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:3, Funny)
But Microsoft seems to be all for software patents.
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:5, Insightful)
Nobody comes up with ideas on their own since none of us is on an island completely seperated from the rest of humanity. You added your small piece to the idea of many others and that should not give you any right to control that.
Look at how many came up with stuff like read-copy-update stuff. Things are independently come up with so many times in so many places that software patents are just not a good idea. We all build our stuff on the backs of others and when we get to a certain level of knowledge as a whole the same idea will be come up with in many places.
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree that software patents aren't the problem. In fact, I'm unaware of any actual patents on software. There are patents on methods or algorithms that are implemented in software, but that's justifiable. For example, if I made a control systems algorithm that I implemented mechanically or electronically it would certainly be patentable, so why shouldn't it be patentable if I implement it in software?
What seems to be the problem is the defacto removal of patent restrictions regarding obviousness and prior art, along with the patent duration. Very obvious things are getting patented in software. It's like patenting a plastic doll because it now has a new hat.
But my biggest concern with this Munich thing is why the concern over Linux specifically? Patent violations are just as, or more, likely in proprietary software. In fact, all litigation I'm aware of for so-called "software" patents have been between proprietary software companies and there have been no lawsuits over Linux violations yet. Plus it is quite obvious that Linux developers would be quick to make new "non-violating" implementations very quickly if anything was found. In other words, the reasoning behind slowing Linux implementation in Munich makes no sense to me.
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:5, Insightful)
Cost:
people can't use an idea for a certain amount of time without paying the inventor (this time is incredibly long in any high tech field, including software)
Benefit:
- it encourages spending on research and technology (the software patents we hear about didn't require much of this other than writing the code - the "invention" was just a natural result of the design of the product)
- it encourages inventors to disclose their inventions (while this may be useful for things like manufacturing processes that would otherwise be trade secrets, software almost inherently discloses the invention when the software is released)
I think that the cost side for software patents outweighs the benefit side. IOW software patents give less to society than they take away.
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:5, Insightful)
So, you patent your idea and turn it into a product. However, some big company comes along and "steals" you idea. You contact your lawyer, who contacts their lawyer to get Big Company to pay for a license fee. Unfortunately, it turns out that your own product infringes on 53 of Big Company's patents, so your lawyers agree that the best solution is a cross-licensing deal, where they get to use your patent, and you get to use their 53. In the end, the only winner is: patent lawyers.
Have any such examples? One?Remember, patents exist to promote innovation -- to allow inventors to spend their time working on inventions that wouldn't be possible if you couldn't prevent others from copying it. What kind of software innovation is only possible thanks to software patents?
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:4, Insightful)
Not really... I'm saying patents are good because it gives those people the time to do what they want to do without having to work at starbucks.
It's easy to take advantage of people like that that are happy to do what they love. The patent system should help protect them. Somewhere along the way, things went wrong. That doesn't mean patents are bad, the patent system needs major work.
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:5, Insightful)
No. Even non-rediculous software patents are a problem. MAYBE software patents would be OK if software had always been patentable... but it hasn't! We've been writing software since 1960, but people only started trying to patent it in the 1990s.
That's 30 years of time when many inventions were made, but no patents were filed. So tons of software ideas were invented, used or not, and then programmers moved on, leaving old ideas free to be patented decades later by someone who wasn't really the first at all.
Just imagine, you spend years coming up with something that ou think is great. Some big company sees it and copies it.
Just imagine, you spend years coming up with something that ou think is great. You write a program, self-publish it, and the shareware-fees begin to roll in. Then IBM calls you and says they patented it years ago. Sure, they never brought it to market- they just have lawyers who patent every little idea that crosses their engineers' heads, without checking if it's practical or profitable.
But now that you've generously done the work of building a market for their patent, they'll be happy to drop the lawsuit against you, as long as you cease your business immediately. You took a big risk, it paid off, and you lost!
You've wasted a couple of years without any return.
The argument that patents protect little inventors from big corporations is mostly backwards today. Filing patents costs money, but it's something a big corp can handle easier than a little guy (by rolling the price of a dedicated IP lawyer into the overhead).
Patents are useful in some fields like pharmaceuticals, but not in software.
Granted, if you're just someone who doesn't innovate, just copies other ideas,
Note that copying other's ideas is the foundation for capitalism...
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't even like the idea of patents in medicine. Aside from the fact that the only possible use for patents in medicine is to limit the distribution of cures to those who can pay for it, thereby callously disregarding the value of human life, there's a deeper concern.
There are several arguments that run along the same thread, but all of them is a permutation of profits driving interest in further R&D:
- If we don't let them patent, and thereby profit, what's to encourage future cures being developed?
- If everyone can get the cure for cheap or free, why will anyone pay the prices necessary to help the developers recapture their investment?
These for me are just a bit to close to saying that we need to keep people dying so that the medical industry can keep making money. After all, isn't the ultimate goal to put the medical industry out of business? I'd like to think that the goal (however unrealistic) is a world in which people are so healthy that drugs and complex medical products are no longer needed for the most part.
So long as we continue to reason along the lines of, "But who will support the drug companies, and how will they make a buck?" we are espousing a mentality that needs continued suffering and death, because a) if people aren't suffering and dying of diseases, there's no impetus to develop drugs because there's no market, and if people aren't suffering and dying because a drug is b) so freely available, there's no motivation for the wealthy who can afford it to actually pay for it...
I'm just not sure patents in general are ever a good idea.
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:5, Insightful)
Now let's run this through a real life example. You spend years creating something completely different. Something new enough that it truly deserves a patent (say something on the order of public key encryption), and you create a product and start to market it. The big software companies, especially Microsoft, immediately set to work cloning your work, and within a year they have competing products.
However, you have a patent on the really clever bits, right? So you are saved.
Wrong! Instead, when you approach Microsoft and friends about licensing your patents they simply show you 20 patents of theirs that you violate. Microsoft has patented the double-click, for crying out loud. Your patent lawyer then advises that you sign a cross-licensing deal with these companies, and asks you for a big fat paycheck. So now you have spent years creating the software, and tens of thousands of dollars patenting your ideas and you are still screwed.
The only way for the little guy to win with patents is to see where the market is going, patent ideas that are likely to block upcoming software innovation, and then sit back and wait. The trick is to write absolutely no software. That way you don't violate anyone else's patents. In fact, that's what a lot of companies are doing. They don't actually create any software, they just lay out landmines for the folks that are actually doing the real work.
Don't tell me that promotes innovation, because I don't buy it.
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:3, Insightful)
Not particularly for open source software, but for independent developers and small companies (a lot of open source developers are in that case, but certainly not all of them; just think of IBM).
And prohibit a lot of authors to make money from their own individual creations.
The problem actually is software pa
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:5, Insightful)
The general /. consensus has always been that a software company can copyright its code, but should not be allowed to "patent" an idea. In other words, Microsoft should be free to claim ownership of their DoCrazyStuff() function, but should not be granted exclusive rights of "providing an method on a computer by which crazy stuff may be facilitated".
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyway
And before i get flamed, yes I know a license for code is different from a patent, but guess what, in software, the most valuable part of the software is the ideas, the algorithms. It's usually not very hard to implement the ideas(though that doesn't mean it isn't often screwed up).
Okay, I have an idea: an O(log n) sorting algorithm. How brilliant I am! I should patent it and make a bunch of money immediately! Oh, okay, there's the matter of implementation, but that's for the little people to worry about.
You see where I'm going with this? Ideas are easy. Implementation is 99 44/100 % of the work -- always has been, and probably always will be. And yet now, we're at the point where not only are companies patenting specific implementations, which I would have a problem with in and of itself (copyright vs. patent) but ideas before an implementation even exists. It's not like they've done the work and want to protect the fruits of their labor; they're saying, in effect, "If anyone ever does this work, we own their ass."
Open source has created a lot of new ideas, and will continue to create new ideas. These should be embraced, if you hate patens so much, don't use the stuff in the patents.
The new ideas F/OSS has created tend to be in specific implementations, not in Big Ideas. (NB: the Big Ideas tend not to come out of companies like Microsoft, either. Mostly they come from academic research, or from corporate labs like Bell Labs or PARC that function almost as separate entities from the parent corporation.) Now, I'm not saying it will always be this way. We may be starting to see the age of F/OSS doing genuinely new things, not just improving old ones. LAMP, f'rinstance, although it consists of a combination of older ideas, has become a social as well as technical phenomenon, moving waaay beyond Just Another Server Setup. But Most F/OSS and proprietary developers spend most of their time implementing improvements on ideas that have been around in academic CS since the Seventies.
In fact, that time period brings up something I hadn't thought of before. Why, exactly, are almost all of the "modern" programming techniques we use based on academic CS from the Seventies and before? Well, in 1980, there was this little thing called Bayh-Dole
One-Click Checkout? (Score:3, Insightful)
# US5819281: Notification of aspect value change in object-oriented programming (owned by EDS)
# US5983227: Dynamic page generator (Yahoo)
# US6025810: Hyper-Light-Speed antenna (also accelerates plant growth)
# US05443036: Exercising a cat with a laser pointer (note that it took two people to think of this )
So, it doesn't even have to be cool, it seems....
Inane Patents [c2.com]
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:5, Insightful)
For copyright violation.
"...and yet when it comes time for Linux to lift ideas from Microsoft, /.rs get really mad because they don't think Microsoft should be allowed to own it's ideas."
It's patented ideas.
Really - I cannot understand what is the matter with the moderators this morning - this drivel isn't even factual and rational, let alone insightful.
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:3, Insightful)
That's because there aren't enough moderation options. This poster is maybe OVERRATED but only because s/he was rated in the first place. They aren't TROLLing. You want to give them some credit for an opposing view (to keep the discussion "fair/balanced" (yeah, right)).
What we need is a MISINFORMED or IGNORANT moderation option.
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:4, Interesting)
They have to provide value for money for EU citizens and this unfortunately puts them at odds with the nice businessmen who give them nice envelopes of cash (EU commissioners are unelected and don't exactly have a reputation for honesty).
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:5, Interesting)
You're right, they're not elected, but they're appointed by their respective national governments, which arise as a result of democratic election. I know it' debateable whether this is good enough or not, but then again, there are countries that don't have directly elected presidents.
I think a lot greater problem with software patents is that the issue is well understood only by a few people. Knowing enough about programming AND law is a rare combination.
It is very easy to confuse (and bribe) anyone into supporting the patents. Hopefully the case of Munich will actually be a good thing, because it will make politicians realize, that yes, software patents do matter to them!
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is not really their appointment, but it is the way they operate. They don't have a reputation for honesty because hardly anyone watches them, and they are answerable to hardly anyone. Not enough checks & balances, that is the problem.
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:5, Informative)
Stop Software Patents!
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:4, Insightful)
They're not illegal, they're just not legally enforceable; there's a big difference.
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:3, Interesting)
- "One click ordering" I'm sure there's no one here who has not heard of this one, even though I'm unable to figure out how Munich could be in trouble for this one...
- Spam challenging (in Mozilla mail) and Spam Caller ID, held by Microsoft
- Some 60 firewall patents, apparently iptables is in trouble
- "Auswahl von Kompressionverfahren", choice of compression methods (Gim
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:5, Informative)
Some important issues they raise in the 'patent PDF'
- mozilla tabbed browsing (from opera?)
- GIMP image export formats (ie. JPEG, GIF)
- OOo macro support
- OOo XML schema (from MS Office)
- CIFS / SMB
- Use of browsers for eCommerce (Oracle patent)
Seems to me that they have been exaggerating some patent issues.
Others might apply, such as CIFS, Gimp GIF issues etc.
Re:...EU software patents? (Score:3, Insightful)
How is this issue specific to linux?
Attempt to stop those patents (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:That is helpful (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:That is helpful (Score:3, Insightful)
1) Mix Free Software Politics with Local Politics
2) Push a Linux Migration based on Values like "openness" rather than traditional cost/ROI.
3) Publicly shoot down Steve Ballmer's sales efforts
4) Become the showpiece project for Linux desktop migration.
5) Start to solve a lot of the intractable problems with moving away from Windows
(BOOM) Kamikaze your own project with Patent FUD.
Apparently they failed to understand that hardly anyone sees Lin
Freezes Linux (Score:4, Funny)
Business more powerful than Government (Score:3, Insightful)
Even though its german, read the study (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.ffii.org/~blasum/basisclient
Even though it is german there are a lot of patents listed in english and you will be able to see how incredibly absurd this whole thing is.
For example there are patents for:
- Tabbed Browsing
- Multitasking
- Using your browser to browse online forums
- Creating documents through macros
to just name a few.
A political decision (Score:5, Insightful)
The green party wants to point out what harm a law that allows software patents can have for small and mid sized companies.
Re:A political decision (Score:3, Interesting)
If the EU were to pass the "directive on computer-implemented inventions" (commonly known as software patent directive) in the May 18, 2004 version, then there is no assurance that Munich can continue on with the migration project.
I was in the audience a week and a half ago when Wilhelm Hoegner, the CIO of Munich, talked about the threat from software patents in the light of that EU legislation that is in the works. He understands the problem really well. Today we are ta
Re:A political decision (Score:3, Insightful)
Corporations provide patent warchests which protect their products from frivilous patents. Non-frivilous patents and/or "patent profiteers" get paid off... since the objective isn't generally to crush the author of the software, but to profit from the software patent.
Linux to my knowledge hasn't needed to deal with any profiteers yet... probably because there would be too many lawsuits to launch.
Large corporate backers like IBM can protect Linux from strategic patents with their own patent warchest. J
Re:A political decision (Score:3, Insightful)
WRONG, who is given you people this idea that you can hand your case over to Microsoft? Where did Microsoft say they will indemnify their users? What EULA? Point it out to me.
The fact is this, you are not indemnified by patent suits against stuff in Microsoft Software. The plantiff in the situation might decide to go
the problem with Linux - intellectual property (Score:5, Insightful)
The next generation of spurious lawsuits will be targeted at users of the technology. Without a blanket organisation to indemnify (sp?) the users, I suspect widespread adoption will slow very quickly. I was hoping IBM or a big player would step into this space (as per the one-off SCO lawsuit situation re: HP) but right now the scope of lawsuits is so vast that it would be suicide to do so in a blanket fashion.
When I buy and deploy MS, at least I know that EOLAS won't/can't come after me. Linux however faces increasing paralysis as this 'death by a thousand cuts' discourages widespread adoption.
Can anyone comment on the largest linux deployment in the world? How many large scale deployments exist? I'll ask people to ignore academic installations, as they are rarely relevant to corporate/government environments which drives the IT industry.
Re:the problem with Linux - intellectual property (Score:3, Interesting)
Why not? If a patent holder were in a dispute with Microsoft, harassing Microsoft's customers with lawsuits to generate FUD would be an excellent tactic to pressure Microsoft to quickly settle the matter.
some more details who supports what here... (Score:5, Informative)
They are pro Linux (at least for Munich), and against (pure) software patents.
Just to prevent misunderstandings...
Re:some more details who supports what here... (Score:5, Insightful)
So, yes, they are doing the right thing. Let's pray it works out.
Microsoft VS a country? (Score:5, Funny)
"Try it... you can come to OUR courts and do it"
"..er..erm..but we can't use our money to win there"
"...hmmmm.. indeed"
I hope they do move over to it and then if Microsoft try anything they'd have to win with evidence and not with money.
It's call to arms... (Score:4, Insightful)
I wonder... (Score:4, Funny)
Gee, I wonder where they got such a coMprehen$ive list from?
Now is the time... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Now is the time... (Score:4, Interesting)
First, you can't distribute software under the GPL and then further restrict its use with patents.
Second, activists from around Europe, in concert with anti-swpat businesses and political parties, have already got the Parliament to vote for a directive that prohibits software patents, and with more help from concerned Free Software users we can do it again this winter.
And finally, even if the FSF Europe did go and file a load of patents in the European Patent Office, they'd cost so much to defend (~1 million Euros) that they'd be an easy picking for any large company.
Me bangs head in wall.... (Score:4, Interesting)
If it is infringing on anybody's patents, you will show diligence and stop infringing.
If it is an innovative product, you are creating prior art thus blocking any idiots trying to patent your idea. Of course there is always somebody trying to pull a SCO in legal systems that are utterly broken, but you can't do much about that, can you?
Write code, learn, enjoy it and face the situation if it arises. There is nothing the common person can do about this, the most softwar is produced the more difficult it becomes for any stupid dishonest company or person to appropriate ideas they did not create.
And of course do all what you can to abolish software patents. They are an aberration and a danger to knowledge advancement in societies that uphold them.
Re:Now is the time... (Score:3, Informative)
Now the parent of this thread suggests the FSF start patenting software. This would be surrender on the part of the FSF. I think we should do everything possible to fight the existanc
Not only a danger to Open & Free software (Score:5, Insightful)
However, it is MUCH worse than that. Software patents are a danger to ALL software development, particularly software done by small firms or in-house, which is where most of the software development is done. If software is patentable, and if all those obvious patents are granted and upheld. No-one will be able to develop any software for fear of being sued.
I hope the software patents issue is not seen to be only an issue for Open Source and Linux. It's not. It's a danger to all of us. Even if companies will still create new software, it will be much more expensive due to research and defense of possible patent infringement, patent fees, and additional coding to work around expensive patents.
And the winner is .... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:And the winner is .... (Score:3, Informative)
Now listen here you moderators - I've already had to tell you off once already today. The parent's post may be interesting, but only in the same sense as a novel or any other fictional work is interesting. If I have to tell you again, you will be doing an hour's meta-moderation every day after school for the rest of the month.
And as for you boy - yes, you z0ink, you little rascal! Here's a piece of chalk. 100 times please:
"There are 30,000 or more software patents on the books in Europe. M
How Software Patents Should Work. (Score:4, Insightful)
Lets consider tabbed browsing, and 169 degre opening doors on these new Nissan Titans.
My company spends millions building this door, the hinge is a peice of work requireing many hours of effort and testing. We pantent it all of course and are awarded it and people buy our trucks for it's superior way of opening vs say a ford with the same feature.
Tabbed browsing should be considered in this same light. Everyone should be able to implement tabbed browsing. Company X could code it one way and Company Y would code it another way. Both have tabbed browsing, one's method is superior, provides more features, and the code size and memory footprint per tab is lower than the competitor.
Just blindly posting patents for the idea is wrong. Software patents should be more specific and not on the general idea. Yes you can have a patent on a tabbed browser but not on the tab metod itself just your way of coding it.
Patent ideas (Score:3, Insightful)
You own your hinge, if someone else wants a wide opening door they would have to develop a new method not to infringe.
If tabbed browsing was patented, and someone wanted to group multiple web pages under one logical window, they would have to create their own new method.
It is the specific solution that is patented, be it a fancy hinge or tabs to show the web pages.
Think wide opening doors and grouping web pages as the goal. Fancy hin
Re:How Software Patents Should Work. (Score:5, Insightful)
The US screwed up and went against globally accepted patent stanards and reversed it's on accepted patent standards when it began issuing software patents.
Specifically the US abandoned the "Mental Steps Doctrine". The Mental Steps Doctrine said that mental processes are not - cannot be - inventions. And that anything that can be done mentally is not - cannot be - an invention.
It may be slow, but absolutely any code can be executed mentally. I am a programmer, executing code mentally is a routine part of writing and debugging code. All software is fundamentally mental steps - mental processes.
Physical objects and physical processes can be inventions. Mental processes and calculations are not inventions.
Answer me this:
If I choose some convient/simple software patent, and I then proceed to in fact execute that software through pure thought, have I committed patent violation? Were my thoughts a violation of the law?
And if not, then please explain how it magically become an invention and a violation when I take the obvious and non-novel step of using an ordinary computer merely to speed up that exact same non-invention calculation?
I really really want you to answer that. It's funny, every time I ask that of a software patent advocate they completely ignore the question. They can't rationaly answer it, so they pretend the question was never asked. So I will state right now that if you reply in support of software patents, yet completely ignore the previous two paragraphs, I will just repeat the question. Can thoughts executing the software violate the law? And if not then how does the obvious use of a computer merely to speed things up turn a non-invention into an invention?
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Disturbing indeed (Score:5, Interesting)
Products from Microsoft or Sun are just as likely to contain infringing code as Linux, but if such code is found, it's likely that the producer of the software finds itself at the wrong end of a lawsuit, not the users. The scary bit about the problems with Linux and purported IP infringement, is that the people laying claim to parts of Linux go after the users, since there is no real producing company to sue.
So it is accurate to state that software patents stifle free, open software development specifically. To use software patents against an incorporated competitor isn't very practical. You'll have to actually fight your claim in court, since your competitor's product is their bread and butter, and it'll be worth it to them to defend it. But to fight an OSS competitor, it is enough to threaten potential customers with a lawsuit... to them, the risk of a lawsuit isn't worth it, and they are likely to choose a non-OSS solution (unless they think the claimant has no case whatsoever).
You can be sure that Gates & Balmer are dancing a little jig after hearing this news... I'm not against patent law per se, but lately we see too many examples of corporations threatening to sue over the most outrageous claims on IP, and getting their way by scare tactics, not having to prove their claims or even spending one penny in court. I fail to see how this practice is in the 'publics best interest', as the proponents of software patents claim it is.
Re:Disturbing indeed (Score:4, Interesting)
All operating systems share the same risk (Score:4, Insightful)
Since Windows is much bigger (code-wise) than *BSD/Linux/Amiga/etc., would that not mean that it has a higher chance of running into patent issues?
Would the users be immune to the issue since they did not infringe (the software developer(s) did)? Eolas did not go after the users but Microsoft.
Great news (Score:5, Interesting)
NOT JUST LINUX! (Score:5, Insightful)
They need to immediately do an excruciatingly thorough search for software patents that Microsoft software may be infringing. Be sure to include ALL of the software in the Microsoft package - from Windows to Office to Media Player to Outlook and Exchange to Microsoft IIS webserver to PowerPoint to Internet Explorer, everything.
Presuming they find a few, then obviously the EU needs to "freeze" any Microsoft purchases as well.
Oh, and while they are at it, IBM has a couple of active software patent infringments against SCO in court right now. So if by some odd chance some EU government office is dealing with SCO software, well I guess they'll just have to "freeze" that too. Chuckle.
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Re:NOT JUST LINUX! (Score:3, Insightful)
Software patents are process patents, and the person using the process is the person using the process infringingly and is the person liable for infringement.
And if for some reason you were right that Microsoft users cannot be sued, then Redhat and Suse customers cannot be sued either, and then there's is no need for Munich to "freeze" their Linux plans.
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Make a mental note: greens scary (Score:3, Interesting)
The guy who made the inquiry to the München administration claimed to be a "supporter of OSS". Uhh. All the Microsoft's FUD pales in comparison with this "self-FUD". Oh how they must be laughing right now.
While I entirely support most of the environmental and economical issues of the greens, and have voted for them occasionally, they have proven amazingly irrationally stubborn in their opposition to nuclear power and certain other issues. Politicians are not guaranteed to be from the brightest class of humanity, and this case very much proves that.
The problem, of course, is that most of the others are even worse choises than greens.
Re:Make a mental note: greens scary (Score:4, Insightful)
Next time you post, read first, breath twice, and then write.
Re:Make a mental note: greens scary (Score:5, Insightful)
And please explain to me how it would be better not to raise issue now? How is it better to simply wait for it to pop up later in the form of an actual patent lawsuit after the EU passes the Software Patent Directive?
The worst case scenario is that the Munich Linux project gets killed now rather than later by actual patent suits. The best case scenario is that raising the issue now will dissuade the EU from legitimatizing software patents in the first place.
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tin-foil hat conspiracy (Score:3, Interesting)
Seeing all the stunts that have been pulled by the big lobbyists in the last year or so, in order to pass the software-patent litigati^W legislation (I live in Europe, and followed the debate, more or less), it is not at all unlikely that the Green Party of Munich uses a different tactic now to get a broader audience's attention. Remmeber, the upcoming law might be ratified by the Europeean Parliament in no more than 6 weeks!
Software Patents == Bad (Score:3, Insightful)
When you really think about it, that is what software is, it's the expression of whatever you're coding (a tab, a purchase order, an email sorter).
So what needs to be decided is this: Is software an artistic expression of a concept (copyright) or is software an invention (patent)?
I tend to think of my software as an art form, expression of a concept (copyright). No one can copy my code, but anyone can see a program and say "hey that's a good idea, let's do something like that". This is how ideas evolve, ultimately benefitting society.
Imagine if some music artist patented the C chord, how much would music suffer if no other artist could use that sound? However, the sequence of sounds (like software code) is rightfully protected by copyright.
To: Mr Hoegner (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Please be aware that there are a great many people who are invested in helping you be able to roll out linux in Munich.
2. Assuming that EU patent law bears some similarity to US law and that the body of software patents bears some similarity, the key to destroying poorly issued software patents is prior art.
3. A call from you for us to help you find prior art would meet with tremendous response. Even moreso if you could arrange to translate the list of probable patent violations into English.
thank you.
[Really, anyone with appropriate linguistic capabilities could put up a webboard for discussion and translate the patent pdf]
Re:To: Mr Hoegner (Score:5, Insightful)
3. A call from you for us to help you find prior art would meet with tremendous response.
No! Absolutely not!
The goal here is not to invalidate a handful of stupid software patents. The goal here is avert the EU from passing a directive legitimizing and legalizing software patents themselves.
If the Council's version of the Software Patent Directive passes it will legalize the patenting software. If software is established as patentable then defeating these few patents isn't going to help. There will be tens of thousands of software patents issued every year and we inevitably lose.
However if the Parliment's version of the directive passes then it will affirm that the existing European Patent Convention which explicitly excludes software from patentability does in fact prohibit software patents. That last sentence is confusing, but it is correct. There is already a European Convention saying you cannot patent software. The problem is that some people are playing word games, by their interpretation the text prohibiting software patents doesn't actually accomplish anything, by their logic it was intentionally written to do nothing.
If Parliment's version of the Directive passes then all previously issued software patents will be established as invalidly issued. All of them are invalidated in one fell swoop and no new software patents can be issued.
So the goal of raising this issue was to shine a spotlight on the disaster to ensue if the Council's version passes. The intent is to ensure the Parliment's version passes, preventing these patents from becoming valid.
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Software Patents are a horrible idea (Score:3, Insightful)
Software patents are a mine field. Anyone using//developing software is in a huge minefield and no matter where you step there is a landmine. The odds are when you put your foot down the mine will not explode but it is still a minefield. Once you are in the middle of the minefield it is too late to worry about violating software patents. Overall the only real option is just to ignore software patents and never look them up or learn much about them. At least then you can not be found to violate the patent on purpose which lessens the penalty and it makes it easier to disprove the patent.
Work needs to be done to throw out software patents but until then ignoring them seems to be best.
This is the only way MS can stifle Linux (Score:3, Insightful)
Official Declaration of Mayor of Munich (Score:3, Informative)
Here's a translation:
The [Bavarian] state capital Munich certainly holds on to the Linux project that was decided on by its city council, and upholds its strategic decision in favor of an open source project. [reference to dpa report, a German news agency]
"It was just yesterday that the IT experts of the city explained the strategic benefits of its Linux project to the city administrations of Augsburg and Nuremberg [two other Bavarian cities, Nuremberg is the 2nd largest one]. We were pleased to see that those cities, like Vienna (Austria), are interested in Munich's open source solution." All that is correct to say is that the bidding process for the base client has been temporarily put on hold because the legal and financial risks due to a draft directive proposed by the EU Competitiveness Council (which would allow for the very broad patentability of software) need to be checked into.
In the opinion of the mayor, it is now the highest priority that all European municipalities and enterprises that have a vested interest in open source take influence on the EU institutions and the national governments of the EU member states. The goal must be that the envisioned directive does not take effect as a European law. In that regard, Munich concurs with a decision by the European Parliament, "which once again is attempted to be turned around and into the opposite, by small EU committees that pander to the interests of large corporations".
Its the methods and functionality (Score:3, Insightful)
I.e. the "one click buy" patent, the tabbed browsing and even methods for embedding "something" in a browser are examples of ignorance and stupidity.
There are 1000 ways to code "one click buy" commerce functionality - but only ONE patent for it. That's what's wrong. It should be the code and the algorithms there where the target for patents NOT the method. As an example I could file for a method for making a car move. That would be the engine, and that would be ridiculous in the eyes of engineers. Such a patent would never make it trough the patent offices. Of course there would be prior act, but in many situations prior act is forgotten or the little man are afraid of the battle with the "mastodont" - an whole other issue.
Therefore I must conclude that the people patenting software methods and functionality are somehow not fit for the job.
It is then up to us citizen of the world, to raise a flag saying that the entire world will be in state of limbo if the current insane software patent wave continues.
Next time I file a patent it should be for bad endings in novels!
Some of those patents are plain criminal (Score:5, Informative)
Tabbed browsing...
Reading fees for web based applications...
Web shopping basket....
60 Firewall patents....
Jpeg compression...
Windowing systems...
Document creation via macros...
Multitasking...
SMB/CIFS...
Web based deployment...
These patents are literally criminal. Why bother to use a computer at all. Why bother to even consider working in IT since, due to patents, you're fucked the moment you write your first line of code. Christ alfuckingmighty, Microsoft and these fucking patents make one feel like being back in the fucking dark ages when you were forced by law to pay taxes to the fucking church just because they were there.
I'm going to work in a fucking restaurant as a waiter. At least there I know why the customers and the boss treat me like shit.
Formalize Defensive Patents (Score:3, Interesting)
Patent situation affects more than linux (Score:3, Interesting)
I suppose the difference is that Microsoft has a lot of cash in a single basket, which makes it a target for lawsuits and whatnot, whereas there is no central money basket to go after for "linux" -- lawyers would go after wealthy because that's where the money is; legally, though, would there be anything to keep them from going after Windows users with a claim to the effect that those users are knowingly collaborating in patent infringement (or are using a system they aren't sure doesn't infringe upon others' patents)?
If Linux Is Outlawed... (Score:3, Insightful)
So what does that leave us with? I don't expect to patent holders to come sniffing around every single company that may be using Linux somewhere, especially since no one will be widely advertising its use in a hostile patent environment. And of course continued development of Linux will work around the patent problem and continue as before.
Patents much be novelty and non-obvious (Score:3, Interesting)
This is from U.S. Patent Office:
Novelty And Non-Obviousness, Conditions For Obtaining A Patent [uspto.gov]
It seems to me that many of the patent applications are obvious to those in the informed community. Perhaps something is gained in the public eye in merely applying for the patents? As I recall, IBM used to publish statistics on how many patents they created each year as a sign to how progressive they were.
I would like to see a GNU or EFF project aimed at documenting prior art of 'obvious' inventions to aid the USPTO in expelling such claims. Perhaps a web crawler or blog format that gives a voice to the EFF community to prevent these outrageous claims.
Re:duH (Score:3, Interesting)
Owners of linux usually dont have patents to trade with, exception might be novell who owns suse. No dont count ibm. They have patents but they dont own a distribution who can be targeted. Very clever or dumb depending how you look at it.
Re:Translation . . . (Score:5, Informative)
The list of example patent claims (most of which would be easy to fight but we aren't really rolling in dough here in Munich at the moment) should be clear enough and translation sites don't mangle them too much.
Note that this is mostly based on patent applications, not accepted patents. The majority of concerns become moot if the EU denies software patents.
Cheers,
woof.
Re:Translation . . . (Score:3, Informative)
The city of Munich's switching project to an open-source based infrastructure with a standardised Linux base client is eagerly watched worldwide. Meanwhile, attacks are taking place against open-source projects by means of lawsuits against important reference customers. These lawsuits are initiated by companies whose financing clearly stems from declared enemies of the open-source movement (1). We have done a patent search to reveal possible patent risks of the
Re:Thanks, Greenies! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Thanks, Greenies! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:that's crazy (Score:4, Interesting)
Everyone is running around screaming about the "liability" of using linux and it "possible violates" some patents.
please, I guarentee that hese same patents arebeing violated by microsoft, if not more of them.
why is it that people think that if I use Microsoft I am immune to being sued while linux= anyone can sue me for any reason?
when did this sillyness in thinking come about??
IBM is being sued for breach of contract by SCO, nobody is being sued "because they use linux" contrary to the hype and fud spread by the media.
so yes, please can someone in the know enlighten us as to why?
Re:Munich Green Party (Score:5, Informative)
If everyone in the industry and in politics understood that you can only be either for open source or for software patents, it would all be a lot easier. Some say that software patents have not hurt open source so far but today we have the first incident that shows how software patents can put a hallmark Linux project in jeopardy.
What people need to understand is that the competitors and enemies of open source may very well accept today's stack of open source software, but they lay huge patent minefields in new areas of technology so they can arbitrary restrict the functionality of open source and keep its market share limited in the future. However, the best that can happen to all of us is an unfettered proliferation of open source.
I'm not just involved in open source. I'm also developing a closed-source computer game based on the
No, it is something else (Score:4, Insightful)
If my theory is correct, it is an incredibly dangerous game they are playing. However, if it helps stop software patents in Europe it is worth it, even if it means losing Munich to Microsoft. It would be losing a battle to win the war.
Re:drawbacks of civilization (Score:5, Funny)
Want to see a legal version of windows? I can make a copy of mine, so you can see what it looks like.
A answer from Munich (Score:5, Interesting)
this is why we decided to freeze this huge project, that the SPD, the major partner in the german administration and our political partner in this project, just cant allow to fail. The had too much trouble with toll-collect, a recent huge waste of tax money. That way the SPD just cant continue to silently support software patents in the EU. Without a EU software patent law, we happyly invite you to OUR courts to discuss this in full detail.
Yours sincerly, the greens of germany
P.S.: Did you manage to unbundle your software from your OS in the meantime, or do we need to call the EU to fine you again?