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Sun Microsystems Java Linux Business Programming

Sun To Upgrade Java Desktop System 189

Posted by Hemos from the playing-catch-up dept.
An anonymous reader writes "The second version of Sun's Java Desktop System should be unveiled this week, according to this article. And as part of Sun's effort to entice programmers to its new software, the new JDS software will include the Java Studio and NetBeans developer tools." The JDS is their Linux desktop system.
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Sun To Upgrade Java Desktop System More

Sun To Upgrade Java Desktop System

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  • Nothing to do with Java! (Score:4, Funny)

    by osullish ( 586626 ) <osullish@NOsPAm.gmail.com> on Monday May 31, 2004 @09:44AM (#9296222)
    Sun's "Java" desktop has as much to do with Java as this "security" site [microsoft.com] has to do with security

    • Re:Nothing to do with Java! (Score:5, Informative)

      by Decaff ( 42676 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @10:46AM (#9296611)
      Who says it has nothing to do with Java? It has an up-to-date pre-installed Java VM, Java tools for adding extensions to Star Office, it now includes Sun Studio for Java development. The JVM is linked with Mozilla, so user can run serious Applets (making Java Desktop ideal for corporate environments and intranets).

      Its a corporate linux desktop which includes substantial Java tools to allow integration with, and development for, server-side J2EE installations.
      • Do you work for Sun or something?

        Except for Sun Studio, I believe you can freely download the other items you mentioned. I don't know why you need a whole Linux distribution for it anyway.

        It seems to me that the primary benefactor of the JDS is Sun. They want to collect site licensing fees. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's just not that amazing once you look past the marketing.

        • Do you work for Sun or something?

          I must do, mustn't I, as I disagree with the mainstream Slashdot view? Actually, no.

          Except for Sun Studio, I believe you can freely download the other items you mentioned. I don't know why you need a whole Linux distribution for it anyway.

          But that is the major complaint from so many Linux geeks.... Java is not pre-installed! You don't want to have to download and install systems on hundreds of corporate desktops.

          As for a while Linux distribution... why not? Its fre

      • Re:Nothing to do with Java! (Score:4, Informative)

        by IANAAC ( 692242 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @11:57AM (#9297016)
        Who says it has nothing to do with Java? It has an up-to-date pre-installed Java VM, Java tools for adding extensions to Star Office, it now includes Sun Studio for Java development. The JVM is linked with Mozilla, so user can run serious Applets (making Java Desktop ideal for corporate environments and intranets).

        Uh... so does SUSE. Does that make it a "Java desktop" too? No, because they don't own the trademark, plain and simple.

      • He's right, though, and Johnathan Schwartz says as much. They use Java more for brand recognition, not as a reference to the language. Same thing with their Java Enterprise System suite of software. It has a minor java front end, but that's about it.
      • I've got all that, and I'm running Fedora Core 2. Except got OpenOffice, NetBeans, and Eclipse instead of StarOffice and Sun Studio. Just took a little while to download, install, and configure.
    • I hear that the upgrade is supposed to fix a bunch of problems like bloated data structures, and general slowness.

      In other news MSFT is asking their developers to work on fixing security problems.

      Sure they are....

      wbs.

  • NetBeans (Score:4, Informative)

    by WilsonSD ( 159419 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @09:45AM (#9296229) Homepage
    Here's a link to a good review of NetBeans (which is now included with JDS):

    NetBeans 3.6 IDE is Much Improved [eweek.com]

    -Steve

    • Re:NetBeans (Score:3, Interesting)

      by FunkyELF ( 609131 )
      "At any rate, it's hard to cavil when so much value comes at so low a price. NetBeans 3.6 is available as a free download or for $9.95 plus shipping for a packaged CD.

      But we'll cavil anyway. Refactoring features, beloved by users of open-source competitor Eclipse, won't be matched until later this year in NetBeans 4.0"

      Couldn't agree more. I can't speak for the performance of the new netbeans, but unless it is 5x faster than previous eclipse wins hands down. And also they admit that eclipse has them w

      • Re:NetBeans (Score:5, Informative)

        by SoTuA ( 683507 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @11:00AM (#9296706)
        I tried 3.6.

        NetBeans is the most painful experience ever. And 3.6 eats so much ram it isn't funny, while eclipse 3M8 worked great, and 3m9 speeds along nicely, with a better UI and better features.

        • eclipse 3M8 worked great, and 3m9 speeds along nicely, with a better UI and better features.

          Now if I can just get the damn thing to build a J2ME Midlet suite properly...

          • Now if I can just get the damn thing to build a J2ME Midlet suite properly...

            I sure could have used a good jsp/servlet plugin for eclipse, lomboz just didn't cut it. Wound up doing it with JDeveloper, wich sucks for coding but has wizards to die for :D and deployment works every time, unlike netbeans.

          • I've had pretty good luck with EclipseME [sourceforge.net], though I don't remember if I've used it since I installed M8.

            Before EclipseME, I used Antenna [sourceforge.net]. It obviously doesn't integrate as nicely into Eclipse, but it still beats writing Makefiles by a longshot.

      • Couldn't agree more. I can't speak for the performance of the new netbeans, but unless it is 5x faster than previous eclipse wins hands down.

        Couldn't agree more. Sun's Java IDE all the way from Forte onwards has been unusable as far as I'm concerned. Ugly and counterintuitive interface, slow as hell, and it can't even roundtrip code properly - it has to embed peculiar comments so it can keep track. Oracle JDeveloper gets my vote. I did try eclipse but I could never get it to work reliably with VSS so I we

  • oooh, netbeans (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jbellis ( 142590 ) * <(jonathan) (at) (carnageblender.com)> on Monday May 31, 2004 @09:46AM (#9296237) Homepage
    Java developers already know where to get Eclipse, the free IDE started by IBM but spun off into a community project. a survey by O'Reilly [onjava.com] recently showed Eclipse to be used by over 60% of java developers (including me, so I guess I'm biased -- but I use emacs almost as much) while NetBeans is used by under 20%.

    So it looks to me like Sun is trying to pull a Microsoft and hope people use the bundled product even if it's inferior. But like I said, Java developers already know where to get Eclipse.

    • Re:oooh, netbeans (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I'll second that sentiment. Eclipse is the best all-around IDE + Platform. Ever since I started using 2.0, I haven't touched JBuiler or any other java IDE. Every now and then I'll use VI if I'm logged into a server, but overall Eclipse is my favorite.

      • Re:oooh, netbeans (Score:5, Interesting)

        by lokedhs ( 672255 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @10:27AM (#9296496)
        If you are prepared to pay a little (not much) you really should try IDEA [intellij.net]. It's the tool that Ecplipse tries to emulate. Eclipse does have many of the features IDEA has (not all though) but IDEA just does it much faster and with fewer keypresses.

        Yes, Eclipse is much faster than NetBeans, but IDEA is faster.

        • And posting the correct link [intellij.com] woul have been better.
        • IDEA is faster and prettier, has a shitload of features, but if you think US$500 us "a little (not much)", I envy you :)
          • Agreed. I've been doing professional software development for too long, so I never have to pay for my tools. I have to admit, that if I didn't have an IDEA license I would probably be an Eclipse user.

            Eclipse isn't bad, and you certainly can't beat the price. But once you tried IDEA, it's hard to back to something else.

            • If IDEA is the best extant Java IDE... well, you've confirmed my feelings about Java. (Which I feel is a language designed to require an IDE.)

              OTOH, a while back I used IBM's (what did they call it now...the one they pushed before they started pushing Eclipse. (Was it VisualJ, or was that someone else?) It really seemed to work. I don't like Java, but that IDE made it useable. (Well, so did IDEA, but "usable" is how I feel about IDEA, and the IBM IDE I thought pretty good. Of course, they had roughed

        • Re:oooh, netbeans (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Lucretius ( 110272 )
          I actually tried switching back to Eclipse after using IDEA for a job. I just couldn't do it, I went out and forked over the money for IDEA, it was well worth every penny I spent on it.

          Seriouslly, I think the only thing I've found that Eclipse is better at than IDEA is in its AspectJ integration.

    • Jbuilder for me! (Score:3, Interesting)

      by autopr0n ( 534291 )
      I tired eclipse, but honestly the auto-complete simply didn't work the way I'm used to. Eclipse has great features, but the wonky autocomplete made it a pain to type out code :P.

      Never looked at netbeans, though.

      Also, sun despises eclipse because it's based (IIRC) on WX windows, rather then Swing. So GUI code produced isn't '100% pure java'. Is that correct, or can you design swing aps with eclipse?

      • Re:Jbuilder for me! (Score:2, Informative)

        by znaps ( 470170 )
        Yes, you can design Swing apps with Eclipse (I do).

        The issue Sun has is that the Eclipse UI is written using a competing GUI API, 'SWT' which is closer to AWT than Swing.

    • Why eclipse? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Decaff ( 42676 )
      I'm puzzled by the huge uptake of eclipse. As a basic IDE its truly awesome, but it has no features to handle user interfaces, be they client-side or web. Netbeans may lack a lot of eclipse features (for now), but it has a very powerful Swing GUI designer and lots of vital J2EE features such as servlet and JSP debugging pre-installed. As far as I know you can only get those features for eclipse with commercial or shareware plug-ins.

      Eclipse is a great free GUI for software that doesn't either have a user
      • Eclipse is a great free GUI for software that doesn't either have a user interface or run on a server.

        You have (partially) answered your own question.

        Not everyone who programs in Java is creating UI components.

        I've been developing in Java exclusively since 1997, and have created more non-GUI code than GUI code -- server-side, middleware, etc. -- I've been fortunate enough to have people who actually like (and are good at) doing GUI code around to handle those things for me.

    • Re:oooh, netbeans (Score:5, Interesting)

      by njcoder ( 657816 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @12:32PM (#9297192)
      I used to mainly use text editors for many years rather than a pure ide solution. Recently I started looking into the free ide's available. I worked on a couple of projects with eclipse as well as netbeans.

      Eclipse seemed faster in some cases but only in some minor things such as dialog boxes or new windows opening up. After using it for a while, there didn't seem to be that much of a difference between it and netbeans. Especially in terms of memory usage.

      Eclipse seems to be a lot more stripped down than netbeans. Netbeans comes with a whole bunch of modules right out of the box to do gui development and web development. Whereas in eclipse you have to download third party modules. As you add more modules the size of the application starts to increase. Also, to get the quality of modules that come with netbeans you have to pay for them in eclipse. For building web apps I really like netbeans. Eclipse with things like myeclipse works pretty well. MyEclipse is pretty cheap but not cheaper than free.

      Look at IBM's WebSphere Studio. Once it finishes loading it's taking up about 150 Megs of memory (not virtual).

      Both are kind of lacking in certain features but that's part of the point in both of them. They want to be a platform to build tools on as well as an ide for third parties to build plugins and charge for them.

      Netbeans has been around a lot longer and has some more built in functionality than Eclipse does. I like the way Eclipse is more ant-like but NetBeans has good ant integration and with 4.0 will have an ant based project system. I've played with the new project system and it's really nice.

      I don't know what some people's hangups are with Swing. I've used a full blown IDE for developing web applications about 6 years ago, on typical hardware from 6 years ago and performance was fine. Right now, I'm runing with Tiger and swing performance is a lot better.

      The thing I don't like about SWT is that you have to rely on the native widgets and some platforms may not have the same set of widgets and they usually don't look the same across platforms if they do. SWT seems like a good short term solution but with the performance enhancements coming out for Swing/AWT, SWT may be obsolete soon.

      The bottom line for me was that I didn't have to spend time and money comparing different plugins I needed that would work the way netbeans does.

      It's odd, while eclipse may be faster I am much more productive in netbeans. The keyboard shortcuts, code completion and interface just work better for me.

      Refactoring can be a pain if you have to do it often. If it's a concern there is a module for netbeans called RefactorIT [refactorit.com] which blows the doors off of what eclipse provides for refactoring. It's pretty cheap too.

      I wonder if people's opinions on netbeans is based on some tools built using netbeans and not netbeans itself. Sun' Studio 5 update 1 had some weird behavior. Every once in a while something seemed to go into an infinite loop and just pin the cpu utilization at 100% while seeming to do nothing. Wind up having to kill the process and restart the ide. Can be a big pain if you haven't saved your work. I hope they've fixed that because the few times that happened it really ticked me off. I've used NetBeans more and haven't seen that happen.

      When doing GUI development though I have gotten a few NPE's in NetBeans when adding new components. I just make sure to save frequently and if that happens, closing the form editor and reopening it fixes the problem without restarting the IDE. I don't do much GUI development so I don't know if this is new to 3.6 and JDK 1.5 or not. I'm hoping that it's because 1.5 is still beta.

      The task list in Eclipse is really cool and NetBeans has something similar now but I haven't really used it much. I also like the way Eclipse handles imports. You start typing in the cannonical class name and if it's not in your import list it will add

  • What!? You mean I can get a free copy of the Netbeans IDE with Java Desktop? How can they afford to do that?

    Netbeans [netbeans.org]

  • The first time I booted the Java Desktop LiveCD... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by defile ( 1059 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @09:50AM (#9296257) Homepage Journal

    I opened a terminal:

    $ javac
    bash: javac: command not found

    *sigh* Can Sun do anything right?

  • GPL? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by thegent ( 687253 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @09:55AM (#9296290)
    Since Sun includes a Ton of GPL'd software on their CD, where are the sources? I can't find any download either on their site (tried "Java Desktop System" download site:sun.com and all I got was a lenghty FAQ) I'd like to try it, where do I get it from?

    • +1, Insightful ! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Gothmolly ( 148874 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @10:09AM (#9296373)
      Thank you for not screaming that Sun must PROVIDE the sources with JDS. As everyone (should) know, the GPL only mandates that you provide a means for the end-user to acquire the sources.

    • Re:GPL? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by kubrick ( 27291 )
      They don't have to provide source to "just anyone", only to people who purchase the JDS from them. They can do this via secure download to these people, or by shipping source CDs with the distribution -- neither of these would enable you to download it. I don't know how they do do this, but I might be upset about it if I were an author of included software, or a customer without the GPL'd sources. I'm neither, so I don't really care.

    • Re:GPL? (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      CDs containing sources are provided with the package.

    • Re:GPL? (Score:3, Informative)

      by angusr ( 718699 )
      Source CDs come with package, or are downloadable with the update (those who bought the first version can download the updated version ISOs free-of-charge).

      You'll need to purchase it if you want to try it - see here [sun.com] - currently $50 for US users, but most people who'll be interested in it will have existing Sun suppliers who may have better deals, or evaluation arrangements.

      It's nothing special as a distribution, IMHO - not bad, nothing standout - but it's main strength may lie in its integration with th

    • The sources have been submitted back to their authors. Want to moan, moan to the projects who have no incorporated the changes. The changes SUN has done for GNOME are already back in the CVS tree, take a look, its right there for the world to see. SUN ALWAYS sticks rigidly to the rules.

    • Re:GPL? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by nathanh ( 1214 )
      Since Sun includes a Ton of GPL'd software on their CD, where are the sources?

      On discs 4, 5 and 6.

      You did get all 7 discs, right?

  • What about this new configuration manager!? (Score:5, Funny)

    by vijaya_chandra ( 618284 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @09:56AM (#9296299)
    It also will come with the first version of Sun's Configuration Manager, which lets an administrator control the privileges and settings of different groups of desktop users.

    I am confused.
    Were sshd, bash and vi missing in the previous version!?!?
    • If it's actually a Linux based SMC (Solaris Management Console) it would be a very good thing. Clients for SMC exist for Solaris and Windows, but nothing for Linux. Whatever else may be said about Sun's bizarre marketing strategies and corporate (mis)-directions, they do have some good tools for systems management. Though I'm now a die-hard Linux user, there are still many areas where Solaris (maybe just by virtue of being developed longer) outshines Linux. This is of course changing minute by minute...

  • GNU/Linux/GNOME + Java? (Score:3, Funny)

    by NotZed ( 19455 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @09:56AM (#9296300)
    You mean their GNU/Linux/GNOME + Java system, right?

  • JDS: Linux today, Solaris tomorrow. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by IGnatius T Foobar ( 4328 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @09:57AM (#9296315) Homepage Journal
    The JDS is their Linux desktop system.

    Not for long.

    Sun has hinted more than once that they'd like JDS to be based on Solaris x86 [ziffdavis.com]. I would expect at some point that they'll either start pushing a Solaris-based JDS, or even worse, "seamlessly upgrade" Linux-based JDS to Solaris-based JDS and load up a Linux binary compatibility layer to run those "legacy" apps.

    Linux is a nuisance to Sun. It's really a shame, because Sun has done (or acquired and re-released) some great things: NFS, Java, OpenOffice... but they're so stuck on Solaris that they just can't handle the fact that it's all about Linux now. IBM "gets it" -- they do AIX when customers ask for it, Linux when customers ask for that, but they're pushing for unified Linux everywhere. But anyone who's experienced IBM's distribution of the GNU toolset on AIX knows that Sun absolutely kicks IBM's butt in terms of integration of the tools into a legacy Unix OS.

    Anyway, I'd wager that Sun is going to continue to be schizophrenic about Linux until the board wises up and cans McNealy.

    • Re:JDS: Linux today, Solaris tomorrow. (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Except that the Linux kernel still falls over under heavy loads (think enterprise operations, moving terabytes of data in and out of databases each day), mostly because of Linux's virtual memory manager. Until someone rewrites that vm system to be more robust, more "intelligent", and in particular stop thrashing the system trying to maintain unneeded data in the page cache, I will take Solaris over Linux anyday for these types of applications. I can drag any Linux system down to unusable, while the same thi
    • JDS is mostly a software stack that runs on top of the OS that gives it certain functionality that enhances the user experience as well as the managebility of a network of JDS systems.

      Sun has said they want to create a JDS version that runs on Solaris as well. Definatley for Solaris x86 and maybe Solaris/Sparc as well but I don't remember.

      To be fair, they also have their Java Enterprise System which now only runs on Solaris. Again, it's a software stack. They plan on releasing it for other OS's inclu

    • Re:JDS: Linux today, Solaris tomorrow. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by oconnorcjo ( 242077 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @10:21AM (#9296460) Journal
      Linux is a nuisance to Sun. It's really a shame, because Sun has done (or acquired and re-released) some great things: NFS, Java, OpenOffice... but they're so stuck on Solaris that they just can't handle the fact that it's all about Linux now.

      Linux is a hard pill to swallow for Sun. The margine of profit off of anything Linux is small in comparison to anything they sell with Solaris. Sun knows that Linux is the future but Sun also knows that means thier profit margins are gone as well. They are doing more with Linux because they have to but they are doing it "kicking and screaming".

      Sun knows it has no choice but to join the community but it will take any opportunity to stab it in the back if Sun thinks it can find a way "back to the good old days" (like when they paid SCO and blabbered it to the press). It is not just McNealy. How do you explain to investors that your future is to be a cross between DELL and RedHat but without the large volume of sales that Dell gets?

      • Actually, Sun doesn't even seem to grasp the idea of a community. They seem to be doing everything legal to make themselves into a pariah, despite that they started out with immense positive capital (Java & OpenOffice.org could have been converted into considerable popular sentiment).

        Personally, I'm beginning to hope that Sun drops dead quickly, despite the beneficial things that they did in the past.

        E.g., I haven't noticed any comment about whether or not they have changed their licensing policy to

    • Re:JDS: Linux today, Solaris tomorrow. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by DrXym ( 126579 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @10:42AM (#9296588)
      The thing is... a properly configured Linux can be installed on pretty much whatever hardware you have lying around. Whereas Solaris x86 can't.

      So that fact alone pisses on Sun's parade in rather a big way.

      Who is going to upgrade from JDS 2 to 3 if half the upgrades won't even work properly because the supported kit is slashed? Are countries like China or large companies expected to restrict their hardware to items in Sun's draconian Hardware Compatibility List?

      Besides which, who cares that it's running a Solaris kernel? This is a desktop system, not big iron. It would make more business sense to put a Solaris compatibility layer on top of Linux and benefit from the development momentum that it has and Solaris doesn't.

      But I don't think Sun is thinking straight these days. Just like AOL before them, it just takes a big chunk of cash to be waved before their eyes and suddenly they're Microsoft's bitch. It would not surprise me if JDS started shipping with .NET libraries in some future incarnation.

    • pushing

      Yah, making an offering for some people who want to use Solaris x86 (remember when Sun tried to kill it and the users screamed and yelled?) instead of Linux is "pushing". Right.

      Maybe you should go take your prejudices elsewhere. Oh wait, this is slashdot, I forgot. Land of "if it ain't a Linux I approve of, it's shite."

    • Re:JDS: Linux today, Solaris tomorrow. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by njcoder ( 657816 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @02:48PM (#9297869)
      "Linux is a nuisance to Sun"

      I don't know if it's so much of a nuissance as something they didn't feel they needed to do anything with.

      People kept asking what was Sun's linux strategy and they didn't really have one. Then again neither does my mom. Except for McNealy who has his way of going over the top with things the majority of references from Sun regarding Linux have been positive. This is going back years now. I remember reading an interview with Billy Joy (maybe from 99?) Praised linux for what it was doing. He still thought Solaris was better for some things and he didn't seem to have an interest in doing anything with Linux. This is old news to him and a lot of people at Sun. Bill Joy has already started from square one with unix operating systems including SunOS and BSD. From a creative standpoint it would be like taking a step back for him and starting with something he's already done. As many of you will know, there isn't much satisfaction in that and he was working on other things (JINI). Why would sun want to tinker with a new start up OS when it is busy improving it's own popular one? If something comes out now that is better than linux, will all the developers abandon linux and work on that?

      Sun has a really good unix os already that was much more mature than linux when people were complaining about Sun not embracing linux. That's like complaining that Harley Davidson didn't embrace the new engine designs and stuck with a V-Twin. (Okay, they have a water cooled engine now on the vrod).

      IBM has said the same things about linux as sun has when IBM compared linux to aix. Sun is a much smaller company than IBM and has to make different decisions.

      The whole "what's sun's linux strategy" questions have bothered me. I mean we don't ask RedHat what their AIX or Solaris strategy is and shun them if they don't come up with anything.

      Meanwhile, Sun has come out with their own linux distro (though short lived they did have Sun Linux) and they are working on JDS. They are porting or working on porting a lot of their stuff to linux.

      I'm hoping to see a lot of good things now from Sun in the low end server space with Andy Bechtolsheim coming back to Sun. They'll be selling Solarix x86 and Linux distros with the new servers. Obviously they're going to push Solaris more but unless something major happens they'll still be selling linux. Andy Bechtolsheim was one of the founders of Sun. He was tired of waiting for computer time at school and built his own workstation. Bill Joy was working on BSD. Then McNealy the MBA and someone else (the money guy I forget his name) started Sun. Bill Joy and Andy Bechtolsheim are true geeks in the best sense of the word. Their the hardware and software guys that Wozniak was to Apple. We see Sun now as McNealy and it puts people off. But there's a lot more to the company.

      I just think people should lay off sun (and sun should be a little more careful of what they say) because the infighting in the unix community just creates a rocky foundation for someone else to stake a stronger claim in the server space. It happened with windows nt.

  • First we get 'xxx product released'. Then we get 'xxx product beta released'. Now we're getting 'xxx company plans to release'??

    Can I just be the first to say DUH.

  • The one still based on SuSE 8.x? (Score:4, Informative)

    by CdBee ( 742846 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @10:02AM (#9296346)
    I recall a review on Linux.com [linux.com] a few weeks ago, of this software.

    Apparently the underlying core of JDS hasn't changed since the original release, its just an interface and client software refresh. This meant it wouldn't install on many modern machines due to an outdated - by Linux standards - kernel 2.4.19
    • If that review is at all correct, why would anyone buy JDS? For $100/year/seat, I would want tech support I can rely on to help *now*. Otherwise, what's the point? I can get an answer to most problems online with a one-business day turnaround on most Linux forums (Gentoo, for example) for free.

      If Sun want to charge extra money, shouldn't they have to provide something of value? Or do too many companies follow the idea "it's more expensive, therefore it must be better, or they wouldn't charge so much"?

  • Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Espectr0 ( 577637 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @10:03AM (#9296350) Journal
    Why use JDS when there are better, cost-free alternatives?

    • Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by mccoma ( 64578 )
      Same reason companies buy Windows. Companies need a Vendor. Vendors are more trustworthy than some guy / gal in the I.T. department :)

      • Re:Why? (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Mateito ( 746185 )
        > Vendors are more trustworthy than some guy / gal
        > in the I.T. department :)

        I dunno... been getting a fist full of headaches from the local EMC support recently. I'm currently trying to script the creacion of multiple snapshots, and the command line experience of the local guys is zilch, so every request goes to second level support in the US. We are talking 10 day turnaround here.

        Ever tried writing a script with a ten day turnaround for every enquiry?

        Blah

        (Yeah.. I'm just bitter)

  • Ah! I've figured it out. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by iamdrscience ( 541136 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @10:06AM (#9296359) Homepage
    I, like many people, made fun of Sun at first for calling it the Java Desktop when the majority of the code (and pretty much all of the core code) is written in C or C++. I've realized now though, that the case is the same with Java itself, so really the name fits perfectly.
    • Yes, well, you have to interface with the system, right? What Java is trying to do is to make it easier to develop (cross-platform) applications. Don't worry about buffer overruns, recompilation on different platforms (thanks, Ant team) etc. This all in a language that is easy to understand (clean syntax, no operator overloading etc).

      If you see it from that perspective than you might understand what Sun is trying to do here. It's not about _writing_ the software in Java as much as making it an ideal platfo

  • Running JDS now... (Score:5, Informative)

    by arudloff ( 564805 ) * on Monday May 31, 2004 @10:09AM (#9296372) Homepage
    It's not too bad, basically SuSE as you've read before. My wheel mouse didn't work out of the box, and sound stuff didn't start automatically -- both of which would be really annoying to the common user.

    The interface is gorgeous though, and sun studio isn't a bad alternative to eclipse. Why they include netbeans and studio is beyond me though, they're the same thing as far as I can tell. And I can't type "javac" directly from my home directory, which I'd imagine the average user would need to be able to do without changing anything

    I'd like to see more of a sun supported community for JDS. I can't even find user forums or anything of the like to discuss the pitfalls I've found, etc. Hard to build a desktop user base if they are only going to marginally own up to it existing in the first place. I feel like I'm the only person in the world using it. Maybe it's just too early...

  • ... the upgrade is free, but you do not receive the developer tools or the administration tools. In fact, I have yet to see a huge difference between the first version and the second version, since I downloaded and installed the ISOs last week. The kernel is still 2.4.19, but given the target audience of corporate users, it makes sense (I suppose) that they do not provide the latest version. Overall it is a decent system for non-hobbyists. Personally, I use it to test Java desktop software that I wrote

  • Impressive (Score:5, Funny)

    by Waffle Iron ( 339739 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @10:18AM (#9296437)
    Wow, maybe I've got to take a look at Java again. Lots of people have posted comments saying that the JRE 1.4 is faster and more efficient than you'd think.

    But it looks like with this new Java Desktop System, the proof is here. If Sun was able to port the entire Linux OS to run on the JRE, and Gnome too apparently... well, I'm impressed.

    The only thing I wonder is why they went ahead and reimplemented yet another clone of Unix. It seems that with their pioneering Java software technology under the hood (after all, this is the language that introduced features like dynamic class loading, garbage collection and introspection to the world of computing) they could have pioneered a new modern, modular desktop OS.

    • Re:Impressive (Score:3, Informative)

      by mtnharo ( 523610 )
      Ummm, Java Desktop is not written in Java. JDS is a Linux distro from Sun that was put together as an option for companies who want a Linux/x86 partner for their Solaris boxen. It's a fairly basic distro which uses a customized version of GNOME, and has some of Sun's Java development tools packaged in.

      Java may be getting faster, but unless you figure out a way to write a JRE that could be run without an operating system behind it, it can't be used as the basis for an operating system. (Note: I think there

  • Breathtaking innovation (Score:3, Interesting)

    by bratgrrl ( 197603 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @10:19AM (#9296451)
    Sun is trying to be even loonier than Darl. They're succeeding, but they're not nearly as amusing. Let's see, they 'have no Linux strategy', Red Hat is ''proprietary', and this warmed-over elderly "Java Desktop" would more accurately be named "Old Moldy SuSE." The innovation is breathtaking.
  • JDS release 3 will be supported on Solaris - I think it'll be the default UI on Solaris 10 (shipping in Q4 this year). This is for both Solaris SPARC and x86.

    This was the plan all along, so it makes sense that they didn't put "Linux" in the normal title, but maybe they should have called what's shipping now "JDS for Linux" or something.
  • for file in `find / -name '*.c'`;
    do sed s:Linux:"Sun Java Desktop":g $file > /tmp/$$;
    mv /tmp/$$ $file;
    done;

  • Great, BUT! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by kaiwai ( 765866 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @10:38AM (#9296561)
    What is holding JDS back isn't necessarily Linux but the fact that SUN has done nothing about dire shortage of third party software vendors for the desktop.

    There are a HUGE number of companies out there who would jump ship in a minute for a JDS solution IF they could get their "mission critical" applications on JDS. I'm sorry, but if SUN want the customers, the customers require the software, no software, no customers, its just that simple.

    Want to solve the problem? go to the vendors and ask, "how much to port this application natively to JDS", find out the price, and the cut the software vendor a cheque! Once you get a handful of vendors producing, more vendors will come on board volunteerily because they don't want to feel like they've missed out on the "next big thing".

    Its about creating momentum, but unfortunately SUN just doesn't get it, and never has, and never will.
    • What is holding JDS back isn't necessarily Linux but the fact that SUN has done nothing about dire shortage of third party software vendors for the desktop.

      Eh? its Linux and there is an up-to-date Java VM included. It runs KDE and Gnome apps. What shortage of third party software is there?

      • Re:Great, BUT! (Score:4, Interesting)

        by kaiwai ( 765866 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @11:15AM (#9296780)
        Eh? its Linux and there is an up-to-date Java VM included. It runs KDE and Gnome apps. What shortage of third party software is there?

        Oh, so now I can purchase MYOB? Adobe software? Macromedia Software? Peach Tree Accounting?

        Wake up sunshine. There are no viable third party solutions that can be drop in replacements for what business need. Businesses, want a real solution, they want it NOW and they want it from the same vendor.

        Sorry, K-Whatver or G-Whatever will not cut it.

        Sorry to sound a little harsh but lets cut the crap, People want the applications they're used to and PHB's don't want to spend even MORE money trying to retrain their desk jockeys to use something different. You either step foward and say, "hey, you can run the same software packages on JDS" or else sit on the side lines wondering cluelessly why people run Windows in their organisations.

        Again, no software, no customers. Its just that simple.
        • Wake up sunshine.

          <Jar-Jar>How Wude</Jar-Jar>

          There are no viable third party solutions that can be drop in replacements for what business need. Businesses, want a real solution, they want it NOW and they want it from the same vendor.

          That's not what the majority of corporate desktops are for. Been there, seen them, supported them, know what I'm talking about. Its web browsing, e-mail client, word processing, spreadsheets, and a front-end to corporate applications such as SAP.

          As for same
        • Oh, so now I can purchase MYOB? Adobe software? Macromedia Software? Peach Tree Accounting?

          For this stuff, go buy a Mac and get over it.

          As far as corporations whose main applications are written in-house, JDS could be a perfect deployment platform for client-side operations. If you hired a secretary to keep the office running smoothly, does he/she really need more than JDS already has (StarOffice, Mozilla, etc.)? How about a tech-support person, who probably uses a web-based interface anyway? How abou

  • why do people hate sun so much..? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by this takes too long ( 761596 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @10:38AM (#9296565)
    i dont know why so many people talk down on sun. imo they are the only company that could be able to come up with a good competitor to the windows os. im talking about the regular user here. a regular user hasnt got the time or interest to do all the tinkering neccesary to make linux work properly. linux sucks when it comes to hardware compatability for regular users. Sun has a brand name, they are instantly recognised by the public, they have muscle and are respected by hardware manufacturers. its only and only such a company that can breath life into a new OS for the private consumer market.

    • Re:why do people hate sun so much..? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Decaff ( 42676 ) on Monday May 31, 2004 @11:09AM (#9296752)
      i dont know why so many people talk down on sun.

      1. Because they are neither open source or Microsoft.
      2. Because they haven't totally given up all proprietary UNIX, abandoned decades of experience in OS and kernel design, and immediately adopted Linux for everything.
      3. Because they haven't sacked McNeally and appointed ESR as lifetime president.
      4. Because they aren't allowing everyone to fiddle with Java (it's not like Java has been a raving success, after all: How can it possibly be called 'successful' until its a Debian package?)
      5. Because you can't overclock their processors and post pictures of neat cooling systems to Slashdot.
  • Companies purchase JDS by paying US$100 per year for each employee in the company--regardless of how many actually use the software.

    Those terms make Microsoft look good. Does it self-destruct if you don't send in more money each year?

    Go with OpenOffice. Less hassle.

    • This seems too ridiculous to be true. Note that "Sun declined to comment for this story." The best the reporter could do was "sources familiar with the product." It was also conveniently posted on Memorial Day (in the US) with means that it's unlikely that there will be any official comment from Sun today, leaving this to simmer for a whole day. If Sun says something different tomorrow, it'll look like they're backpedaling. Coincidence, or a FUD tactic?
    • Have you read the other comments? No? Then go away, or look it up at sun.com.
  • There was recently an article on slashdot about how awful this desktop was.

    No surprise, SUN is not a front end company.

    However, SUN's hook was a suite of remote admin software to make administering a network of linux boxes/desktops easy.

    Be warned, MS made a place for itself despite technically inferior software by making things easier, especially for IT departments.

    The OSS community could kill the SUN desktop before it gets to that point by making GPL remote network admin software.

    Its all SUN has to sh

    • Re:2 hands (Score:3, Informative)

      by Decaff ( 42676 )
      There was recently an article on slashdot about how awful this desktop was.

      Yeah.... what a surprise.

      No surprise, SUN is not a front end company.

      They pioneered the Unix Workstation, and innovative GUI systems like NeWS and the OpenWindows Window Manager. They helped port Gnome to Solaris. You must have some strange definition of 'not a front end company' that does not match our Earth usage.

      The OSS community could kill the SUN desktop before it gets to that point by making GPL remote network admin s

  • PREDICTION (Score:2, Informative)

    by linuxislandsucks ( 461335 )
    Sun will drop its lInux versions fo JDs fro in favor of Solaris versions of JDS..

    Reason: the underlying Linux distro SUn is using is not SuSe as the article states but UnitedLinux which as you know modified SuSE amoung soem standards to make the distro..

    As you know The SCO group has refused to modfiy it smembership in United Linux in order for further versions of United Linux to be produced..ie SUn choose a dead distro in order possibly lock cusotmers into Solaris..

    Exepcted announcement aroudn JavaOne o

  • 3D? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by zenstalinist ( 784166 )
    But does the desktop act like that 3d one Sun demonstrated? THAT would be cool, and so cool if packaged well and demonstrated to game development companies, it could buy Sun a potential foot in the domestic use door.

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