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Operating Systems Software Windows Linux

Seattle Times Reviews Desktop Linux Distros 463

Posted by timothy from the are-we-there-yet dept.
prostoalex writes "Seattle Times section on Personal Technology compares Xandros and Lindows as two alternatives to Windows for desktop computing. Their verdict: installation - excellent; OpenOffice - good enough; digital cameras, printers and other peripherals - excellent; CD burning - no problems; video playback - could be better (with more progress bars and support for Apple's formats); digital camcorders - poor; burning audio CDs - poor; Net access and Web browsing - no problems."
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Seattle Times Reviews Desktop Linux Distros More

Seattle Times Reviews Desktop Linux Distros

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  • Audio CD's (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:13AM (#8496899)
    Audio CD's are no problem with applications such as K3b. Heck, even regular cdrecord burns audio cd's without a problem.

    • Re:Audio CD's (Score:5, Funny)

      by antic ( 29198 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:44AM (#8497038)


      Their verdict: installation - excellent; OpenOffice - good enough; digital cameras, printers and other peripherals - excellent; CD burning - no problems; video playback - could be better (with more progress bars and support for Apple's formats); digital camcorders - poor; burning audio CDs - poor; Net access and Web browsing - no problems.

      ...trying to find a PC for sale that doesn't have Windows on it - problems...

    • Re:Audio CD's (Score:4, Informative)

      by ravydavygravy ( 230429 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @08:15AM (#8497186) Homepage
      RTA:

      I couldn't figure out how to save CD songs in their original .cda format for copying onto blank CDs. I've been spoiled by Apple's iTunes' ability to convert and copy in different formats. The software handled MP3s fine, however.

      He couldn't save as .cda, but otherwise thought they were fine apps. The ./story is a wee bit misleading on that front...

      Dave

    • Re:Audio CD's (Score:4, Informative)

      by ookaze ( 227977 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @08:50AM (#8497407) Homepage
      You are right but, before Linux 2.6, burning audio CD on the fly could take a very long time, or perhaps even impossible. I ran into issues with burning audio CD on the fly before kernel 2.6. On the fly was so long (was going at 1X instead of 16X), that I was compelled to burn in two steps (extract then burn images).
      Now, it works perfectly. The author also has other issues too, but my guess is he was not using K3B. Because K3B does everything he wanted to do (except extracting in .cda format I think, which is stupid, as WAV is the same in quality).

      I agree with the other appreciations though.
      For camcorder, I agree more on the concern of video softwares, still lacking on Linux.

  • K3B (Score:5, Informative)

    by dew-genen-ny ( 617738 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:14AM (#8496905) Homepage
    Seriously, Audio CDs - Poor ????

    K3B is the best piece of buring software that I have ever used.... makes nero seem pretty shocking....

    • Re:K3B (Score:5, Informative)

      by budhaboy ( 717823 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:21AM (#8496937)
      I'm using a nearly new version of K3B and it won't let me burn CDs from Mp3's, and it won't tell me why. This is a pretty serious problem.

      • Re:K3B (Score:4, Informative)

        by bierik ( 575138 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:45AM (#8497046)
        Ever used mp3burn? It's absolutely easy to use. The program burns your mp3s on the fly (ie you don't need storage place on your harddrive for wav files).
        You can burn all mp3's in the current directory by using

        mp3burn -o 'dev=x,x,x speed=XX' *mp3

        By using the option '-c 80:00' you can make sure all songs actually fit onto the cd. mp3burn can also be used to burn other formats such as ogg- or flac-files

        • Re:K3B (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 08, 2004 @08:09AM (#8497164)
          LOL, you're telling some newbie "average joe" to open up and command prompt and start typing in all this gobbley-stuff???

          user@linows:~$ mp3burn -o 'dev=x,x,x speed=XX' *mp3
          bash: mp3burn: command not found

          "Hmmmm..." User somehow manages to find and install this app.

          user@linows:~$ mp3burn -o 'dev=x,x,x speed=XX' *mp3
          *mp3 does not exist or invalid audio file at /usr/bin/mp3burn line 414.

          "Hmmmm..." User is sorta smart so they figure out they need to be in their mp3 directory. "How do I change directories???" Lets say they figure it out.

          user@linows:~$ mp3burn -o 'dev=x,x,x speed=XX' *mp3
          cdrecord: Bad Option: speed=XX.

          "Uh?? WTF???"

          Then they'll get to the dev=x,x,x crap. Hell, I know what I'm doing and I rarely remember the fricking raw scsi device number. Screw that...

          Shame...

        • Re:K3B (Score:5, Insightful)

          by PhoenixFlare ( 319467 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @08:12AM (#8497180) Journal
          Ya see, this is the problem. No "normal" user is going to want to use command-line tools like this to burn CDs.

          They want to pick tracks from a graphical file manager, hit "burn", and have a fnished CD 10 minutes later.

          And why shouldn't they? Though i'm sure someone will try to prove me wrong within minutes of posting this, there's really no reason to have a friendlier interface than the command line for things like this, assuming it's done fairly cleanly. Eschewing graphics in lieu of (percieved) performance increases is all well and good, but not if it locks out potential users.

          • Re:K3B (Score:5, Interesting)

            by Johnny Mnemonic ( 176043 ) <mdinsmore.gmail@com> on Monday March 08, 2004 @08:59AM (#8497480) Homepage Journal

            And why shouldn't they?

            Let me reply to this as a Mac user. When OS X was being rolled out (over?) the Mac using faithful, it was understood that while the CLI was present, it's use (and understanding) should be regarded as a feature, but never never to be required. To require the use of the CLI for any task was to be considered a failure of the software HCI design.

            No software that's installed by default, and in fact, almost no software that wasn't originally Unix based, uses the CLI as a primary tool of interaction.

            Now, maybe Linux doesn't want to be as "dumbed down" as OS X--fine. But until Linux is able to be run for day to day operation without the use of the CLI at all it will not gain mass marketshare acceptance. Either live with niche desktop usage, or change the way the apps work so that no CLI is required.

      • Re:K3B (Score:4, Informative)

        by mhesseltine ( 541806 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @08:57AM (#8497454) Homepage Journal

        I just did exactly that, grab some mp3 files (and a couple .ogg files) and create a new audio CD project. My installed versions of necessary software include:

        • k3b: 0.11.5
        • cdrdao: 1.1.8
        • cdrecord: 2.1a25-dvd
        • dvd+rw-format: 4.7
        • growisofs: 5.13
        • mkisofs: 2.1a24
        • normalize: 0.7.6
        • readcd: 2.1a24
        • sox: 12.17.3
        • transcode: 0.6.11

        I am aware that parts of that (such as dvd+rw tools) wouldn't be necessary. Just pointing out that it can work out of the box. Then again, I'm using Gentoo so "emerge k3b" was all I had to do. Maybe your distro doesn't include sox or normalize as a dependency for k3b, thus it can't use sox to convert the mp3/ogg files to wav.

    • Re:K3B (Score:5, Insightful)

      by m00nun1t ( 588082 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:26AM (#8496966) Homepage
      An "average joe" (or a reporter masquerading as one) had a problem. Therefore it's a problem.

      • Re:K3B (Score:4, Interesting)

        by thepoch ( 698396 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:50AM (#8497064)
        What I would like to know is... if this average joe would also complain about difficulty in burning an audio CD with Nero. Maybe the only CD burning software he's tried is Windows Media Player or Roxio Easy CD Creator or something. Or maybe he just uses Nero Express (the easy to use front end of Nero). What I would like to really know is what his reason for difficulty is. Maybe he just wants a simple "wizard" like application that asks him questions. Disclaimer: I've never used K3b, but I hear it's as easy as breathing.

        • Re:K3B (Score:3, Informative)

          by Svartalf ( 2997 )
          I have used K3B for making audio and data discs. You've heard right. I used to think xcdroast was easy- but this has that one beat hands down.

  • isn't xandros (Score:3, Interesting)

    by derphilipp ( 745164 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:15AM (#8496909) Homepage
    isn't xandros capable of integration into the existing windows directory and can use it to authentificate the users ? That would be a great thing to be able the authentificate users with their windows passwords (without using pam_smb)

  • Interesting... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:17AM (#8496914)
    ... but could have done with a link to last year's review. It would have been good to see in detail how far we've come.

    I think saying 'burning audio CDs - poor' misstates the verdict in the article, by the way. He had trouble finding how to copy .cda files directly, though burning from mp3s was fine. Odd, since you can just grab them right out of Konqueror IIRC, but still a long way from 'poor'.

  • mplayer and xine (Score:5, Informative)

    by MrSpiff ( 515611 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:19AM (#8496927) Homepage
    "video playback - could be better (with more progress bars and support for Apple's formats)"

    how is mplayer and xine not sufficient? mplayer has OSD progress bars even and quicktimes movies has never been a problem.

  • Yeah, audio CD burning... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Vo0k ( 760020 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:19AM (#8496928) Journal
    Whenever I burn audio CDs and CPU load or harddrive load jumps at least a bit up, the audio track gets broken, stuttering, breaks, noises...? It's not like buffer underrun, a small peak like at opening Xterm, less than 1/4s, is enough to cause problems!

    Will CloneCD employ Realtime Linux extensions to prevent that? I'd like to see it!

    • Re:Yeah, audio CD burning... (Score:5, Informative)

      by O ( 90420 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:27AM (#8496972)
      Are you running kernel 2.6? I used to have shit like that all the time on 2.4, but it never happens with 2.6. I'd definitely upgrade if you haven't.

      Especially now that all programs that use cdrecord's library (libscg, I think) can write directly to ATAPI burners instead of having to use SCSI emulation. That took care of a lot of the problem for me, too.

      I think they might also try to get real-time priority if you run as root, as there is usually a message complaining about something like that if you don't run them as root. Sudo is your friend.

      • Re:Yeah, audio CD burning... (Score:5, Informative)

        by ozbird ( 127571 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:42AM (#8497032)
        ATAPI support isn't quite there yet. If you have a good burn, it works great. If you have a glitch (e.g. with CD-RW media), the drive tends to be locked in some kind of retry loop, and you have to reboot or even power off to clear it. I didn't strike these problems using SCSI emulation. It's no biggy - the more I break, the more data gets fed back to the developers. :-)
    • Are DMA transfers enabled on your CD-ROM drive IDE channel?
    • Do you have udma for your drives turned on? I know burning at 16x without dma used to be a nightmare [thank ya hdparm!]

      Right now burnign a cd takes next to no cpu time as it's all done off chip ;-)

      Tom

  • Improving Linux (Score:5, Interesting)

    by pinkUZI ( 515787 ) <slashdot,7,jmasker&spamgourmet,com> on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:19AM (#8496929) Journal
    I like the table at the bottom of the article best.

    Installation - last year @ 30 minutes versus today @ 5 minutes. I think it was closer to five minutes last year that that, but it is getting harder to remember the days of 45 minute installs. Look at how far we've come!

    • Re:Improving Linux (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:21AM (#8496941)
      Installation - last year @ 30 minutes versus today @ 5 minutes. I think it was closer to five minutes last year that that, but it is getting harder to remember the days of 45 minute installs. Look at how far we've come!

      I use Gentoo, you insensitive clod!

    • Re:Improving Linux (Score:4, Interesting)

      by seasleepy ( 651293 ) <seasleepy.gmail@com> on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:59AM (#8497118)
      But the author reviewed Red Hat last year, which offers lots of choices in which packages and programs you want to install (as well as the partitioning and whatnot).

      Xandros and Lindows probably just *give* you a certain subset of packages instead of asking which ones you want, since they're emulating Windows.

  • Not just those 2 distros (Score:5, Interesting)

    by darnok ( 650458 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:22AM (#8496945)
    That summary could be applied to just about any Linux distribution, not just Xandros and Lindows.

    Interesting how in the "normal office" uses (i.e. OpenOffice, Net access and Web browsing) Linux is now seen as at least good enough.

    From the article, I suspect the author is comparing installation of Win XP *without other apps* against installing Lindows/Xandros *with multiple bundled apps* - this would mean that Lindows/Xandros installs are actually even better than stated given that nobody installs Win XP without also installing other apps afterwards.

    Personally, I've found that installing a "home" Windows PC takes about a day, by the time I install Windows, install service packs, critical patches, MS Office (including finding serial numbers) and sundry apps. With Knoppix or Mepis, it takes me about an hour to get to the same point (i.e install OS to disc, install netselect, find fastest host, apt-get update, apt-get upgrade). Furthermore, installing the Windows PC requires me to actually be sitting in front of the PC doing stuff for a sizeable amount of the time, whereas with the Linux distros I spend very little time actually in front of the PC itself.

  • These are nice, but... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Amiga Lover ( 708890 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:23AM (#8496947)
    I had the chance to play with a Lindows machine in the last month, and it left me impressed with the simplicity, but concerned about the mentality it's going to help keep breeding.

    While not all windows users are the "luser" type, there's a massive amount of Joe Average users who can't troubleshoot their way out of a paper bag. Linux has continued to grow for more than a decade now, and has been doing well without these windows style distributions, and leaving behind a group of users with a wealth of knowledge that leaves any Joe Average in the dust.

    What I'm concerned about is... with an OS like Windows, why would anyone need to learn to troubleshoot? They can jump from one candy handholding OS to another without going through any kind of knowledge gathering to do so. It's keeping up a culture of ignorance among computer users. That's a legacy I think will come back and bite us on the butt.

    • Re:These are nice, but... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by slash-tard ( 689130 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:31AM (#8496992)
      Not everyone needs to know how to troubleshoot a computer. Do you know how to do your taxes if you have capital gains and real estate tax write offs,fix your own plumbing? Do you know how to fix your new car, how about read over that lease to make sure your not getting screwed.

      Joe Average is never going to become a computer expert, just listen to how many times they refer to hard drive space as RAM. The best thing any OS can do is minimize problems and make things easy for simple users.

    • Re:These are nice, but... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by darnok ( 650458 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:38AM (#8497021)
      > They can jump from one candy handholding OS to
      > another without going through any kind of
      > knowledge gathering to do so.

      My experience with this type of user (and there's lots of them) is that their Windows boxes generally "clog up with junk" running slower and slower and less and less reliably over time. Depending on the user, in my experience it can be anywhere from 6-12 months before the PC pretty much needs Windows to be reinstalled.

      How many users can actually reinstall a Windows machine, plus all their apps, plus recover their data from backups ("what are they?") when that time comes? Judging from the Q&A sections in PC magazines, a lot of people can't manage this.

      I think it's actually easier now to reinstall Linux than to reinstall Windows. Consider distros such as Mepis, Knoppix, Morphix - they've got all that most home users will ever need on 1 CD, and the install consists of booting off that CD and either typing one or two commands or clicking an "Install to hard disk" option and clicking "Next" a few times. It's a lot easier to do this than to install a typical Windows box with apps on multiple different CDs and tracking down serial numbers.

      Now, if only these users (and here I'm talking about *you*, Mum, Dad and sis!) would remember to take backups from time to time...
      • how about the simple fact that if I backup my /home/user directory I can drop it back in a fresh linux install and not lose a damned thing... this is 100% impossible under windows. I have to export the user profile and the hope that I can import the damned thing... most of the time it fails, and it never saves everything the users wanted.. linux forces the user by DEFAULT that everything must be saved in their user directory. windows let's you plop them anywhere... espically in the typical corperate doma

    • Re:These are nice, but... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by aliens ( 90441 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:43AM (#8497035) Homepage Journal
      It's keeping up a culture of ignorance among computer users.

      It's really called, not everyone has the time/desire to learn how to troubleshoot.

      Can every car driver troubleshoot a problem with their car? Not even close. A small percentage will know what the problem is and fix it, another small percentage will have an idea of what the problem is and tell the mechanic, and the rest drop it off and say 'It's broken, please fix'

      That's how it is with computers. I'm sure any mechanic who loves cars would wish people learned more and took better care of their cars. That's how I see a lot of linux people act.

      But the fact is most people aren't going to even consider learning more. That's the beauty of linux. If they at first get Lindows, anyone who is part of the, group of users with a wealth of knowledge that leaves any Joe Average in the dust. will eventually seek out Gentoo, Slack, etc and learn more.

      Anyway my point is don't worry about it. There are a lot better reasons for the masses to run linux over Windows other than it being technically better. Something they probably will never really know anyway.

      • That's how it is with computers. I'm sure any mechanic who loves cars would wish people learned more and took better care of their cars. That's how I see a lot of linux people act.

        No, because of a lot of factors:

        People who don't take good care of their cars don't boggle down the internet or send me spam.

        People don't expect mechanics to work for free, or assume their car malfunctions because it's a car.

    • Re:These are nice, but... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Moraelin ( 679338 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:46AM (#8497047) Journal
      The conception that the computer is something that only High Priests of the Sun (or IBM) should have access to, is so 60's that it isn't even funny.

      Do you need to be an electronics expert to use your TV? Do you even need to understand microwave physics to use your microwave oven? Do you even have any knowledge at all of the chemistry and physics involved in using that detergent in your washing machine? Do you need to be an expert in lasers to operate your DVD player?

      Well, then why the heck would an end user need to be a computer expert to use a computer?

      And let's talk about the vendor-consumer relationship. If you're a programmer, your job is to deliver what the users want, _not_ to make them have to take a 5 year course in CS to be able to use your stuff. It's your job to deliver value to the customers, _not_ the other way around. Because it's those pesky users that pay for your salary.

      And what the users _want_ is an appliance that's as easy and safe to use as their TV or microwave oven. That's it.

      The current screw-up where computers are a fragile unstable contraption, and needs arcane rituals to keep it working, is _not_ what the users want.

      And the current practice of blaming the users for your program's shortcomings, and calling them names like "lusers" or even "idiots", is a sad mockery of what the vendor-customer relationship was supposed to mean.

      If that "clueless luser" had to call tech support to get your program to work, it's _your_ failure. It's that simple.

      Just some food for thought.

    • Re:These are nice, but... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by beforewisdom ( 729725 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @08:53AM (#8497423)
      What I'm concerned about is... with an OS like Windows, why would anyone need to learn to troubleshoot? They can jump from one candy handholding OS to another without going through any kind of knowledge gathering to do so. It's keeping up a culture of ignorance among computer users. That's a legacy I think will come back and bite us on the butt.
      If you substituted "car" for "OS" in your paragraph above you would say that is how it should be.

      My point will be the same idea.

      Most people only want to use computers, not become computer enthusiasts or computer hobbyists.

      1985 is calling, they want their attitude back :)

      Steve

    • Re:These are nice, but... (Score:4, Informative)

      by RoLi ( 141856 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @10:01AM (#8498001)
      What I'm concerned about

      Why are you concerned?

      The beauty of Linux is that it comes in so many flavours and variants, so nobody forces you to use Lindows.

      If security on Lindows desktops will ever be an issue (so the user is running as root, so what? Right now there aren't any viruses or worms on Linux) then I'm sure Lindows will adapt and change the defaults to no longer run as root. But since there is much, much fewer piracy on Linux, I have my doubts that even if everybody would run as root, a virus could propagate. Because most distros ecourage the user not to run as root, the chances of a virus actually propagating is even slimmer.

      But it's irrelevant because it won't be your problem anyway, so why should you be worried?

      There is a need for extremely dumbed down Linux distributions, and Lindows fills that need.

      The nature of OpenSource is that it can be customized to every need. If there is a need for a run-always-as-root distribution, then somebody will satisfy that need. That's the beauty of it. Nobody can force anything down the user's throats.

  • Still... stuff works in windows (Score:5, Insightful)

    by thegraham ( 700880 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:24AM (#8496958)
    It can't really be argued that most of the gadgets such as palm's, digital cameras, iPods etc. work easily with linux. Most of them can be made to work with fiddling and some software that someone has hacked together, but at the end of the day the hardware vendors have more resources to throw at the software, and inevitably produce better software that works well with their product. Until they start producing software for linux, its simply too difficult for the average computer user to get things working on a linux desktop. Take my iPod for instance, with windows I just put the CD in, click install and its done - with a GUI that is _far_ better than gtkpod's (although gtkpod is great), whereas with linux you have to install different things, compile them in some cases, and its just much harder work.

    THomas
    • the hardware vendors have more resources to throw at the software, and inevitably produce better software that works well with their product

      Depends.

      A friend of mine bought a Sony Cybershot (which is certainly no cheap digicam at over $1000) and the software that came with it is outrageously bad and just plain stupid. A special, severely crippled download software instead of using Explorer on the USB storage device; a viewer that behaves irregular at best (zooming into previews and the like - looks real

  • One important thing (Score:5, Insightful)

    by omar.sahal ( 687649 ) * on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:25AM (#8496960) Homepage Journal
    In using linux I've noticed that we have real problems with installing and uninstalling software (just image uninstalling mozilla on many platforms). This would have to be sorted before Linux could be used by the general public.
    I hostly feel how ever that once this and other areas such as connecting devices have been delt with Microsoft have a big problem on there hands. Some projects that could sort the
    installation/uninstalltion problem include autopackage [sunsite.dk] zero-install [sf.net] and A-A-P [a-a-p.org]
    • That's completely distro-dependent. A good package manager makes installing and uninstalling software easy. Whenever I hear someone complain about packaging on Linux, I ask them what distro they're using, and if they've considered trying alternatives...

    • Re:One important thing (Score:3, Interesting)

      by mrbnsn ( 24209 )
      apt-get install package
      apt-get --purge remove package

      It's never failed me yet. Since the two reviewed distributions are Debian under the hood, the respective package management tools should work every bit as well.

  • Why those distros? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Hiigara ( 649950 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:27AM (#8496973)
    Why were only Xandros and Lindows reviewed? While I don't have a problem with Lindows, unlike most linux users. I think open source linux has better distros available then those two.

    My problem with the article is the possibility that a linux newbie might buy Lindows without trying Fedora, SuSE or SlackWare. What's the point of buying a Windows clone just so you can say you switched to Linux?

    Although if Lindows were to change its name to something more respectable I might consider trying it out. ;)

  • What about Gaming? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by unknown_host ( 757538 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:31AM (#8496993)
    Till the gaming industry supports windows, it seems unlikely to oust Windows from the Desktop computing market. Given that these alternatives offer the same functionality, the support for gaming would definitely be where they loose out. And most people(non-slashdot readers) wouldn't want to take the trouble of installing 2 operating systems.

    --
    Schrodinger 's Cat : wanted dead and alive

  • Why not Mandrake ? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by phoxix ( 161744 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:35AM (#8497010)
    I'm not too sure why they selected Xandros or Lindows over Mandrake for such a review.

    Unlike either of the two, Mandrake is composed of 100% FLOSS, is freely available, and it simply "kicks ass".

    In fact, I'm some what insulted they chose lindows at all. Lindows is a rather craptacular distro, with super annoying marketing practises, and a high yearly fee for people to get additional software.

    Sunny Dubey
    • I'd think you should send that question to the editor's desk over at the Seattle Times, rather than in addition to posting it here. Maybe they'll post a follow-up article. More linux coverage in mainstream periodicals is a good thing.

  • No free version? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Underholdning ( 758194 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:35AM (#8497013) Homepage Journal
    What I'd really like to see was a free linux distro among the tested versions. I have no beef with commercial linux distributions, but I'll never use one myself. It would be much easier for me to spread the word of the wonders of linux, if there was a free linux that would score as high as these two apparently does.
    What I see here is two windows clones based on linux. If linux is so much better than windows, why try so hard to behave like windows?
    So, what I'd really like to see is a Linux version that's easy to install, works out of the box, and stands on its own two legs. To the best of my knowledge, there's no such distro yet. Or what? I'd love it for someone to tell me that I'm wrong and point me in the right direction

  • Can't we focus on something else now? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by suso ( 153703 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:41AM (#8497028) Journal
    I think that the time for linking to every article that talks about Linux or compares it with Windows has passed. Linux is becoming mainstream. The time has come to focus about other aspects of it on slashdot.

  • Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:42AM (#8497034)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Bogus Conclusion: "Almost like Windows" (Score:3, Interesting)

    by wehe ( 135130 ) <wehe&tuxmobil,org> on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:47AM (#8497053) Homepage Journal
    Author Paul Andrews comes to this conclusion:" Lindows has a slicker interface and emulates Windows so well that it repeats several of my pet Windows peeves. Xandros' user-interface has more obvious Linux legacy to it but shouldn't stymie the first-timer." These are the usual conclusions in our days, deciding whether is something worth to use or not, by having a look at the outside (here the interface). That's one of the reasons of the "success" of Microsoft operating systems. They have put a lot of work and money in their style-guides.

    • Not bogus at all (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Moraelin ( 679338 )
      Actually, I don't see that as bogus at all.

      The way to interact with an application is through its interface. When someone uses your program, they don't directly work with your clever code, they work with its interface.

      The exact same product, with the exact same capabilities, can be a breeze to use or a bloody nightmare that needs you to spend days learning how to even get started. The difference between the two is the interface.

      The thing is: Joe Average doesn't have a Ph.D. in CS, and shouldn't need one.

  • Yeah, but how does it compare for porn? (Score:5, Funny)

    by oingoboingo ( 179159 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:56AM (#8497095)
    It's all very well and good to compare Linux to the Mac and Windows for 'common' tasks such as editing a Microsoft Word document, connecting a digital camera, or installing a printer. But what about a task that many (if not all) Slashdot readers use their computers for on a daily basis: downloading, archiving, sorting, viewing, and ejaculating to gigabytes and gigabytes of internet pornography.

    Let's face it...if a desktop operating system doesn't come with a great thumbnailing preview app, excellent support for streaming media formats, and the ability to survive having the keyboard and mouse suddenly being disconnected to have semen cleaned out, then it really isn't up to scratch. In future, I'd propose to reviewers evaluating desktop Linux systems a few extra categories:

    Disabled accessibility: Many operating systems have features designed to make them easier to use for the blind, deaf, or just plain stupid. But can the interface be easily manipulated using one hand only? Can the video player be precisely controlled with only a few fingers, while the other hand is wrapped around the user's own few inches?


    Web brower pop-up enabling and tracking: While most users claim to clamour for browsers which block annoying pop-up ads, in reality they crave what these pop-ups are offering: free porn. Does the desktop OS under review offer a browser platform which makes following these pop-up nuggets of jizz-candy easy to follow and track? Can the browser in fact follow its own trail of pop-ups, closing those containing circular links, and launching the download manager when a rare find of actual porn is found?

    I'm sure the Slashdot community will have plenty of other ideas to contribute. I look forward to hearing the community's response!

    • apt-get install pornview
      (no seriously, it exists...)

      On a slightly more serious note, gqview (viewer) mplayer (movies) and pan (binary news downloads) would probably satisfy (oops did I just say that?) your requirements quite well. A slightly hesitant "have fun" would probably be in place here...

  • digital camcorders... (Score:4, Informative)

    by unknown_host ( 757538 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @07:59AM (#8497115)
    camstream [demon.nl] is a nice collection of tools for webcams and other video-devices that uses video4linux2. Combining it with some Image Processing Library(gimp?) and a fancier gui should make it a decent enough tool.

  • Linux ok for Linux Penguins (Score:4, Insightful)

    by gelfling ( 6534 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @08:02AM (#8497133) Homepage Journal
    Isn't all this pulse checking getting boring already?

    Hi we're a bunch of nerdy Linux geeks and Linux is rilly rilly kewl and 1337 to install (which I guess as an end consumer you're going to do a LOT of as a matter of course in your normal purchase cycle?)

    So trust us, here's a bunch of distros that are all only about 40% harder to install and run than Windows and when you're done they will run more or less 80% of what you originally intended Windows to run more or less 90% as well.
    • Um you got it right basically.

      Linux distros are hard to install as ice fishing is hard for warm climate southerners. Wrong market.

      That and the average computer user could just be better served with a typewriter and a vic-20 or something ;-)

      What gets me about articles like this are the summary judgements that will be based off it... E.g. well some magazine jerk said Linux is hard to use. Must be true. Ok school, let's renew your assraping windows licenses!

      I mean seriously.... specially at vocational s

  • Seattle Times Disses Microsoft (Score:5, Interesting)

    by alteran ( 70039 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @08:16AM (#8497195)
    The opening paragraph:

    "Don't you wish some days you could just toss that Windows computer out the, er, window and try something else? Something where viruses and worms weren't everyday occurrences, where you didn't have to suffer through lockups and crashes every few days? Where the screen wasn't cluttered with pop-up ads and strange spyware programs, snooping on your every move?"

    I find it interesting that the newspaper on Microsoft's home turf, where Microsoft pumps hundreds of millions (if not billions) into the local economy, feels free to speak so negatively about MS software. If Seattle isn't full of passionate Microsoft devotees, what city is?

    If anyone here reads the Seattle Times, is this typical?

    • Re:Seattle Times Disses Microsoft (Score:4, Informative)

      by MatthewB79 ( 47875 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @10:18AM (#8498189)
      Well, it's not as typical as people from all over assuming that Microsoft Corp. has some kind of stranglehold on the culture and community in and around Seattle. I've lived in Redmond for about 2 years now (girlfriend works for MS, she uses Linux almost exclusively). As I tell everyone who asks, you're probably going to meet many people who work for Microsoft, Nintendo, Eddie Bauer, Safeco, Boeing, etc. in everyday life here. Many of them are free-thinking people who use alternative OS's. Some of them are total cult of Microsoft weirdos. To answer your question, this isn't the first time [slashdot.org] the Seattle papers have published material that puts down Microsoft.
  • Before we jump on the bandwagon and start shouting "But I can burn audio CDs really easily" - we should remember that the people reviewing this are our target audience. Sure, **we** can do it, but they had problems with it, and hence it's these problems that we should be addressing.

  • Not good business (Score:4, Funny)

    by Maskirovka ( 255712 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @08:18AM (#8497209)
    Seattle Times Reviews Desktop Linux Distros

    And 10,000 Microsoft employees cancel their subscriptions in protest to their communist tendancies the next day.

    It's a joke. Laugh.

  • Uhh just a minute (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Epistax ( 544591 ) <epistax@gmaiAAAl.com minus threevowels> on Monday March 08, 2004 @08:22AM (#8497230) Journal
    How well did they rate "Using non-standard hardware." Including printers, laptops, and virtually unknown brands of cdroms, ethernet devices, win modems (Ok maybe this one doesn't matter much anymore), windows keyboards (how much function can you get out of those functions), etc.

    I'd like to know how well speed step performs in linux. Can a laptop hibernate if it needs to? On my i8k in Mandrake it allows either battery or external power. If I plug in / detach the cord, the computer freezes (although the battery does kick in because whatever was on screen stays on screen). I can only assume everything worked by the high ratings given. Also I can assume from the ratings that the system instantly recognizes when any new USB/Firewire/PCMCIA device is hotswapped, and in most cases can identify it. Right? I mean, I did see the word "excellent" so I think it should at least be equal with Windows.

  • Yeah.. (Score:3, Funny)

    by DarcSeed ( 636445 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @08:32AM (#8497292)
    I was like, burning some audio cds from my mp3s.. and it was like BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP, and I was like, what happened? And it went BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP again and the next thing I knew, my mp3s were gone. They were some really good mp3s.

  • Long term reviews (Score:3, Insightful)

    by 4lex ( 648184 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @09:01AM (#8497496) Homepage Journal

    Why are there always "installation and first steps" reviews? Sure, you have to install the systems, and sure, you have to burn CDs or write letters... but I would like some mid-to-long term review, including differences with Windows or Mac OS X regarding security problems, upgrades (two fields where linux should win hands down), integration of new hardware (which I suppose could be way more problematic), installation of new programs (which could be either way)...

    I think long-term reviews would be far more interesting to convince people of the possiblities of the system in the long term, as a stable working environment, not just as a weekend-hobby.

  • RIAA and MPAA are pro-Linux !!! (Score:3, Funny)

    by gosand ( 234100 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @09:08AM (#8497554)
    video playback - could be better (with more progress bars and support for Apple's formats); digital camcorders - poor; burning audio CDs - poor;

    This just in... the RIAA and the MPAA are now strongly supporting Linux as their OS of choice.

  • my experience with Xandros (Score:3, Informative)

    by BigGerman ( 541312 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @09:31AM (#8497750)
    I purchased and installed a copy of Xandros 2.0.

    It feels much more polished than current Mandrake or Fedora do. Everything seems to just work. My only problem with it on the desktop was outdated Mozilla (1.4) but I found an upgrade script. Package installation via Xandros networks is an excellent idea for those who would be scared by apt-get install cryptic-package-name.

    I tried CrossOver and most of the stuff installs and runs, including Quicken and Internet Explorer. Seeing Windows Update running in KDE is truly scary. Fonts on Windows apps are terrible.

    Now, on my laptop Xandros did not shine quite as well. Once again, no proper power management support. I know for a fact, that if I get a recent Fedora or Mandrake I can get the power management to work (after tons of twiking), but I would except Xandros to take care of it for me.

    If I could suspend/hibernate my laptop with Xandros, i would have absolutely no reason to boot Windows anymore.

  • Xandros/2.0 is the one to go for (Score:5, Interesting)

    by pieterh ( 196118 ) on Monday March 08, 2004 @09:34AM (#8497773) Homepage
    Unmentioned in the article, but central to Xandros' value is the Xandros File Manager, which was written from scratch by Xandros. It is very good: every useful file association has been pre-configured so that even a newbie can simply click on a file to do something useful. It just works. And, BTW, it includes very simple CD burning. I'm using Xandros, so are more of the PCs in my company, and it is stable, fast, and professional.
    It's commercial - $40 - but that is really worth paying for software of this quality. Xandros really continues the old Corel tradition of excellent software at a low price.
    Switching from Xandros to Lindows is painful: Lindows just looks cheap and nasty. And every other distro has the same hurdle: they require technical skill to install.
    I've seen Xandros installed and used by a person who had never before in his life used a PC, and watched me doing it once. It is that good.

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