The Voice of Groklaw 198
Random BedHead Ed writes "LinuxPlanet has an interesting interview with Pamela Jones, the paralegal and blogger who created Groklaw. Groklaw has become an indespensible site for geeks who need even more SCO updates than even /. provides - and if the site's inclusion in the footnotes of one of IBM's court documents is any indication, it's been handy for people involved in the case as well. No wonder the site won Best News Site in O'Reilly's OSDir.com Editor's Choice Awards for 2003. It shows how useful and influental a well-run collaborative website can be."
slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, unlike Slashdot.
FOSS Spirit Spreading (Score:5, Interesting)
Slashdot was (not at the expense of _is_) extremely influential in the beginning of widespread Open Source adoption among technologists and future-technologists -- Slashdot helped the up-coming generation of developers, admins and destined tech-management types to understand and appreciate Open Source. When I was in my late teens (early/mid 80's) Microsoft was cool, Apple was a religion and IBM was the "Big Brother" Monopoly. Since, oh, the late 90's the tide changed so that Microsoft is the "Big [DRM] Brother" Monoploy, IBM is cool and Apple is a religion (some things don't change). Slashdot was pivotal for this generational mindshift. Face it, the real victory with Open Source/Linux isn't measured by server installations or stock market capitalization alone; the compelling trend is the number of developers adopting the Free platform. Stunning, because a major component of business technology decisions is available talent pool. This is one reason VB/ASP, inherently brain-damaged, were so popularly implemented; better technology existed but there was no end of available developers (hence, Balmer's love of developers).
Groklaw provides a different purpose. FOSS is no longer in its infancy or adolescense. Proprietary software can not reasonably claim that FOSS is insecure, under-performing, amatuerish, or unproven. Proprietary software is on the defensive on those fronts; the technological hurdles have been jumped. Proprietary software has shifted to fight for its survival and relevancy based on fears of litigation and regulation. IP infringement worries, singled out in 2002's Halloween document (IIRC), was the biggest concern on business leaders' minds so we have SCO vs. IBM (which is a legal case primarily to give pretext to SCO slandering Linux and its developers in public). Not a coincidence. To counter this broadside, as proprietary software vendors must have hoped, the loosely banded FOSS community would have to pay for serious legal representation which it had no structure to begin to afford; akin to Walmart suing Joe And Betty's Corner Mart and Bovine Rendering Plant -- no contest.
What happened was two-fold, and I bet proprietary software antagonists behind SCO vs IBM were caught off-guard. First, IBM didn't do the less expensive alternative and settle with or buy out SCO, but chose to fight this fight. Also, Redhat didn't sit this one out in order to protect its necessary profit margins, choosing instead to answer SCO's slander and FUD with its own suit. Businesses don't like to litigate when it is cheaper to settle, thus the surprise.
Second, the community didn't just flock to Slashdot and bitch about how SCO sux, nor did it mount DDoS attacks against SCO (which would have brought the wrath of public condemnation against it, as SCO must have hoped, since they obviously had prepared Press Releases for such an occasion; the DDoS attacks SCO did experience were not community based, and, in fact, the community worked to stave off such attacks). Nor did the community just rely upon RMS (notably silent, BTW), ESR, Bruce Perens and many other FOSS heavy weights to answer SCO's charges (though their input is important). What happened was unexpected and in the truest spirit of Open Source: a beneficiary of Open Source development offered her special skills to solve a threat against the community which earned her appreciation. Groklaw was born: Open Source, community-based legal research and analysis, lead by Pamela Jones. She has donated her expert skills, time, sweat, and resources. Moreover, others who appreciate FOSS have donated their expertise, time, resources, as well bring clarity to the fuzzy fog of FUD from SCO and others who would destroy Free and Open Source Software. The community has accepted her as the maintainer of this project, much as it accepts the maintainers of technical projects. As a result the legal briefs and backgrounds along with the quotes from all parties in the press and media are available for public scrutiny. Indeed, this resource
Re:FOSS Spirit Spreading (Score:5, Interesting)
As important as the reprinting of legal documents, press releases, articles, etc., are both the commentary and the research. The documents are very important, of course. The anti-FUD campaign relies on having a central repository, a searchable database. Indeed, much effort has gone into transcribing PDF documents so that they might be more easily searched. Kudos to the selfless volunteers.
The commentary is important because it allows those with a legal background to explain the finer points of the law, and those with a technical background explain some of the complexities of the code. In other words, we compare notes.
The research is important because facts are being uncovered that might otherwise be passed over. Assertions made by SCO can be countered with a multitude of facts, facts which are gleaned by volunteer researchers poring over old mailing lists.
The last thing that I think should be emphasized, you put thusly, "Indeed, the Open Source community is spreading outside the domain of technologists into other disciplines." There is precedent for this method in Academia, but Academia has always been somewhat aloof from the rest of society. Or perhaps it's the other way around. At any rate, Open Source is a cultural phenomenom, not just a development method. It truly is a social movement, one that is idealistic and practical at the same time. It's a paradigm shift, and Groklaw is a manifestation of that.
If Open Source is viral, it is viral in the sense that it is invading our culture, and changing it. I don't believe that it will lead to an overthrow of capitalism, but I do think it will counter balance capitalism and de-emphasize the capatislist marketplace as the be all and end all.
Anyway, I could go on, but I've yakked enough.
Groupthink (Score:2)
Essentially, what you are admitting to here is the massive, biased groupthink that goes on. Have people already so easily forgotten IBM's past sins? Oh, they've adopted Linux, so let's welcome them into our arms with praise on Slashdot! It's sheep-like.
Second, the community didn't just floc
Mistaken reading (Score:2)
The operative word there is "just." The implication is that the community did MORE than just complain. Concerning "communism" the effects we see in
Re:Communism is not bad unless implemented. (Score:2)
Some might say the same about American Democracy. You take the good with the bad and try to work with what you get.
Re:slashdot (Score:2)
I find that now I waste a significant portion of my day compulsively reloading Groklaw. And when the stories on Grocklaw slow down for hollidays and the like, I find myself jittery and confused.
I know Slashdot will lag 24 hours and I need the play-by-play as it happens.
Give em a good slashdotting... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Give em a good slashdotting... (Score:1)
Impossible (Score:5, Funny)
I think.... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:I think.... (Score:3, Funny)
She doesn't just have groupies. She has minions.
Re:I think.... (Score:3, Funny)
Minions? Hey! Watch who you're calling minions, or we'll come after you.
(Pause)
Oops.
I think you overrate this SCO thing. (Score:5, Insightful)
If I got agitated every time about this like you do then, well, I wouldn't posting this message. (Unless someone writes an astral interconnect module for Perl.)
Someone making ridiculous claims and wanting a huge heaps of money isn't actually news. Much more people do this for a living than you might guess.
Re:I think you overrate this SCO thing. (Score:5, Interesting)
Delusional IP lawsuits are certainly nothing new, even ones surrounded with press releases. SCO may even have some kind of case against IBM. It's Darl's grandiloquent pronouncements (to use a genteel term) about IP, Linux Hippies, and the unconstitutional GPL making the baby jesus cry that's what's generated so much "buzz" in this community.
Apple's "look and feel" lawsuits spring to mind
Check CPAN, there might be a Tie::Plane::Astral in there somewhere
Re:I think you overrate this SCO thing. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, they're called trial lawyers...and one of them wants to be your next president [johnedwards2004.com]
Re:I think you overrate this SCO thing. (Score:1)
Re:I think you overrate this SCO thing. (Score:1, Funny)
And yes, a really good one [johnedwards2004.com] wants to be your next president. I for one think he'd be an awesome president.
(Not that a wet dishrag wouldn't be an improvement over what we have now..)
Re:I think you overrate this SCO thing. (Score:4, Informative)
Unless you care about copyright abuse. I'm a North Carolinian and have had several discussions with John Edwards staffers in Raleigh, and he's completely in the pocket of the MPAA/RIAA.
Take it from a tarheel - pass on Edwards.
Pass on Edwards (Score:1)
Clark and Dean is the contest for the Caorlinas.
I hope it is not decided before the Carolinas
primary. A lively debate would do some good.
mike
Re:I think you overrate this SCO thing. (Score:2)
He set the record for jury awards in NC and then beat his own record at least twice more. Then NC and several other states passed laws to set maximum awards for personal injury lawsuits. One of the first things he did after winning his senate race was to introduce legislation to allow personal
Re:I think you overrate this SCO thing. (Score:2)
one of the six best lawyers in the nation.
Sadly, the best lawyers have their passion for right and wrong squeezed out of them completely.
It's kind of like the effect of seminary training causing people to lose their religious zeal.
Particularly, this issue arises in the SCO case, where David Boies [slashdot.org] is part of the law firm that owns a fifth of SCO and will profit if this legal action is successful.
This is the same David Boies that did such a nice job of cutting to pieces Microsoft's legal defense for the
Re:I think you overrate this SCO thing. (Score:2)
The art (Score:2, Funny)
/. should get a new layout (or a choice of layouts)...
Best thing to come out of the SCO case (Score:5, Insightful)
There is an ever increasing need for common ground between the legal and geek communities, and Groklaw appears to be it. Neither techs or lawyers understand each other's worlds, this goes a long way, to bridging the gap.
A hearty "atta boy" to Pam, and a nomination for whatever annual award there is on the web.
Re:Best thing to come out of the SCO case (Score:5, Interesting)
The part I get depressed over- Groklaw is unique because PJ does actual research and fact-based analysis. Sure, we expect ZDNet to print uninformed, baseless opinions, but all these other "real" news and financial media- Forbes, Washington Post, NY Times, etc etc, publish shallow, 'he said she said' garbage. 'This one says I didn't do it, the other says did to.' What crap. Why even bother? In the SCO deal, Forbes reached a new low with Daniel Lyons. There's a guy whose allergy to facts is epic. Read the actual court papers? Research the issues? Nahhh, that would be wrong.
Re:Best thing to come out of the SCO case (Score:1)
What is refreshing about Groklaw is that PJ and the Groklaw volunteers actually do research, someth
Re:Best thing to come out of the SCO case (Score:5, Insightful)
What PJ has done with Groklaw is what investigative journalists should be doing in the more *serious* papers. Unlike (say) Woodward or Bernstein (of Watergate fame), most modern journalists seem to be purely interested in controversy (which sells) rather than truth. Unfortunately, this focus on sensationalism can be exploited for ulterior motive, and can be more akin to news manipulation than news reporting.
I think with sites such as Groklaw there may be a shift back again to the reporting for detailed truth rather than for sensation. OK, PJ is not a reporter, but she is a researcher, and research is something reporters are meant to do (as well as paralegals!).
It also shows that it is possible for individuals to make the detailed truth of a matter available to all, even if the 5th Estate refuses to do its job! Hopefully others will be encouraged by PJ's example.
Re:Who IS Groklaw (Score:1)
Don't you feel shame for lying like that?
Re:Who IS Groklaw (Score:1)
Wow! That's gonna really help you build your cred in this community.
Re:Who IS Groklaw (Score:1)
I for one... (Score:5, Insightful)
Having a graduate degree in a funky fusion of computer science and law, I know all to well about the challenges involved in getting the geeks, lawyers, and everyone else, involved or not involved, to understand one another. It is a challenge to write and explain things in a way with a goal of getting as many people as possible to understand what is written and where the fewest people feel like they are being patronized, belittled, hearing "old news," etc. From what I can see (maybe others think differently), Jones does a good job in meeting that challenge.
I hope to see other cases on Groklaw, in addition to all the SCO stuff, both from the US and the rest of the world. I'll be more than willing to contribute stuff. Just keep the site going!
Re:I for one... (Score:5, Insightful)
The true power of Open Source work (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The true power of Open Source work (Score:3, Insightful)
Given IBM's citation of sources on Groklaw in the SCO case, I'm sure at least some IBM lawyers are checking Groklaw regularly.
damn them! (Score:1)
Maybe Pamela needs bodyguards (Score:3, Funny)
To protect her against the fanatical army of pro-SCO terrorists.
(And every time groklaw gets
The only problem with this is that everybody knows what few techies they have left are probably too stupid to even know how to carry out such an attack.
"grok" is from "Stranger in a Strange Land" (Score:5, Informative)
Re:"grok" is from "Stranger in a Strange Land" (Score:4, Funny)
In an effort to avoid becoming completly geeky, I have avoided looking up the page number where Mike explans this
If not martian it should mean that in some language. 'Course, I tend to think it means that in English; my GF is a geek too.
Re:"grok" is from "Stranger in a Strange Land" (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, it's English for someone who bites the heads off live chickens. I suppose some people might find that terribly attractive. Or
Re:"grok" is from "Stranger in a Strange Land" (Score:2)
Anyone who finds it terribly attractive would have such specialised tastes that you wouldn't have to worry about them leaving you for someone else.
The same is mostly true for all of the lonely 'unique' types, too.
a question I wish had been asked (Score:4, Insightful)
Jones is a savvy user, and her ideas for what needs improvement would be valuable, provided we listen and react to input such as hers. The props are nice, but don't help identify what we need to improve as much as good, honest feedback does.
On the whole, though, a pretty good interview...
Analogy (Score:2)
More SCO updates than slashdot (Score:1)
Don't most SCO updates on
Hope both sites keep up the good work in 2004 and both post the headline "SCO case thrown out of court" soon.
Sun Microsystems (Score:2)
On the last page, though, Sun get thrown in with MS again, for being "the other licensee".
This is not a particularly clear-thinking view:
Re:Sun Microsystems (Score:2)
You may be right that they si
Re:Sun Microsystems (Score:2)
With JDS, they are finally getting that they can do the sums (the analysts knock them for doing only high-level stuff, the customers knock them for ignoring Linux) - remain one of the few high-end server companies, and get the so-called "volume" market (high volume, low margin, which Sun don't like) together. Translation of Marketing Buzzwords: JDS=Java Desktop System; JES=Java Enterprise System -
Re:Sun Microsystems (Score:2)
Groklaw != Greplaw (Score:2)
Anyone else get these two sites confused?
Re:Pictures? (Score:4, Funny)
To Avoiding the Mickey D Coffee Thread Below (Score:2)
Re:Pictures? (Score:2, Informative)
It's not right. Pamela lives somewhere in the Northeast, not in Minnesota.
There are no pictures of PJ on the Internet, as far as I know. She likes to guard her privacy as much as is possible under the circumstances.
Re:Pictures? (Score:3, Funny)
Maybe to avoid the affections of countless socially-isolated, dateless nerds???
Nah.
Re:Pictures? (Score:1, Funny)
Only if the judges are corrupt (Score:3, Interesting)
The only way such rulings can happen is if the judges are corrupt, since the facts are not on SCO's side. Groklaw will become more and more relevant once judges step outside the line and harass people like this.
Re:Pfffffttttt (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't buy it. The author of Grok Law is a paralegal, not a real laywer.
Which is her strength, she does research for a living. Many of the people who post on Groklaw are people who have worked on Linux for years. They know where the bodies are buried. If there was a smoking gun we would have seen it long ago. She runs a professional, well thought out site. She will be arround for a long time after Darl and Co. bite the dust.
Re:Pfffffttttt (Score:5, Interesting)
OTOH, a paralegal will try to discover what things are true and what things aren't. It is important to know the all the facts, even if all those facts are not presented in court. This is so the lawyer does not ask a question that might lead to unwanted introdcution of evidence. The skill of a paralegal is discovery of such facts. The only thing one can say is that the second skill of the paralegal may be the highlighting of wanted facts at the expense of unwanted facts.
What is amazing is that the busiest person in most law offices is the paralegal. Long after the lawyers have left for a game of golf, the paralegals are winning the case.
Re:Pfffffttttt (Score:2)
>things are true and what things aren't. It is
>important to know the all the facts, even if all
>those facts are not presented in court. This is
>so the lawyer does not ask a question that might
>lead to unwanted introdcution of evidence.
What is the role of a lawyer?
They are the in the guise of hired guns. But the paralegal is manufacturing/loading the bullets (facts). In the modern-day trial by li
Re:Pfffffttttt (Score:1)
Reminds me of the old 'Get Rich Doing TV Repair' back cover ads on Popular Mechanics magazine.
Re:Grokking McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Grokking McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit (Score:2)
http://www.atlanet.org/ConsumerMediaResources/T i er 3/press_room/FACTS/frivolous/McdonaldsCoffeecase.a spx
Regarding the whole "how hot is hot?" debate, noone's seriously debating the "temperature of brewing"; heck, Starbuck's website recommends 185-195 F.
However, it is the temp
Re:Grokking McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit (Score:2)
Actually, it was established that 135-140 was the optimal safe temperature. It was also established at the trial that most local vendors (this was in New Mexico) were serving coffee at 150 to 165. Still too hot, but it would give someone who accidentally spilled the coffee on themselves 30 - 60 seconds to clean up before it would cause 3rd degree burns, as opposed to the 3-5 seconds at 180.
Re:Do more research before your start trolling (Score:5, Informative)
As long as you didn't accidentally spill it on yourself, in which case you required skin grafts and 10 days hospitalization.
Sorry, dude, but you must be using a different dictionary for the phrase "perfectly safe" than the one I use.
"She spilled the coffee, McDonald's did not."
McDonald's heated it to over 180 degrees, possibly much higher, given the pressure it was kept under. Not the customer.
And I'm not sure what universe you live in where 180 degrees is "well short of the boiling point", maybe one where Vonnegut's Ice-9 is commonplace, but here on Planet Earth the boiling point is 212 degrees at sea level, and lower at higher altitudes, so I'd say 180 degrees is pretty close to boiling.
Re:Do more research before your start trolling (Score:1)
Re:Do more research before your start trolling (Score:2)
Depends. If you're preparing it in one of those French-style coffee pots where you let the coffee seep in hot water and press the grounds out of it, which is how I prefer my coffee, then you boil the water first and wait a minute or two for it to cool down below boiling. Then you pour it over the coffee grinds and wait several minutes for it to seep and cool down further before drinking it.
Try it, it tastes *much* better that way.
Do The Math (Score:2)
212 (boiling point) - 32 (freezing point) = 180
180 (range of temperature in degrees farenheit)
-32 (degrees below boiling point)
---
148
148/180 ~ 82% of the distance between freezing and boiling
Yep, 82%. Still looks pretty close to boiling to me.
Re:Rather safe (Score:2)
Not to mention that the number of customers complaining of burn incidents will most likely be a small fraction of customers experiencing burn incidents.
Nor that the number of cups of coffee sold is likely a worldwide figure, where the complaint count is likely a US figure.
Re:Grokking McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit (Score:2, Insightful)
Makes her case look even worse (Score:1, Insightful)
That makes her case look even worse. She was so incompetant that she was able to endeavor to dump hot coffee into her lap when there was no other motion in the environment. I wonder if this lady ever heard of an amazing invention....cup holders!
Re:Makes her case look even worse (Score:1)
Perhaps she was confused and thought it was an ejected CD-ROM tray from the 'Computer Training' she'd had at a public library course, where they'd told her to NEVER use that thing for a cup holder.
It just goes to show that there's no reason to offer those 'Computer Literacy' courses at the library to litigious biddies.
Re:Grokking McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Grokking McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit (Score:2)
I really don't understand this way of thinking. Do you just not understand the concept of degrees of risk?
I mean, by your logic, it doesn't matter how hot McD's makes the coffee, because coffee is supposed to be hot. 200, 300, a million degrees, they should never take responsibility. If you believe this then your mind works in a very strange way.
If on the other hand, you admit that at s
Re:Grokking McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit (Score:1)
Re:Grokking McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit (Score:2)
That's just ridiculous. Is she some sort of tactile savant, able to precisely measure the temperature of liquids? And, she wasn't trying to drink it, she was trying to open the cup.
To then place herself at risk by handling said product in such an obviously unsafe manner re
Re:Grokking McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit (Score:2)
What you appear to be missing is that, unlike voluntary assumption of risk (of which this case is not an example), contributory negligence, at least by Australian standards (and most likely U.S. standards too, since both are Common Law countries), is not an absolute and complete defence.
Now, I do not have all the facts of this case, but the common procedure would be to award damages for the tort of negligence and then assessing the claimant's degree of contributory negligence to establish an appropriate a
Re:Grokking McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit (Score:2)
Yes, it's quite common to see rulings where negligence is determined to the percentage point, and damages set accordingly.
There is more to it, but you should get the point by now. If not, take an introductory law course. They are usually surprisingly interesting!
I ag
Re:Coffee temperature reality (Score:4, Informative)
That's bonkers. 185-200 might be a good temperature to *prepare* the coffee, so it doesn't get scalded, but that's *way* too hot for drinking.
I urge you to test this for yourself. Please take photographs, so we can all fall off our chairs laughing at your self-inflicted third degree mouth burns.
140 degrees, give or take 10 according to taste and tolerance, is about the best temperature to serve coffee.
Re:Way too low (Score:2)
And to maintain the freshness of steak, store it in a freezer or hold it at about 40 degrees farenheit if planning to prepare that day.
But I wouldn't want it served that way, unless I was going for the steak tartare.
Re:Way too low (Score:2)
If so, note that the heater's thermostat probably doesn't even go up to 180F. Try setting your heater to as close to that temperature as you can achieve. Then the next day turn on the hot water on full blast in the shower and get in. Note the nice lobster-like complexion of your skin. That sensation that feels like you were immersed in boiling oil is just what it feels like... I recommend having called 911 10 minutes before getting in to ensure that the param
Re:Idiot (Score:2)
Have you ever seen the inside of a hot water heater, after it's been in use a couple of years? It's disgusting.
Trust me, you don't want drink hot water from the tap.
Re:Idiot (Score:2)
If you're not going to drink hot tap water (which, considering it has left deposits in your water heater, is probably cleaner than cold), you should stop drinking cold tap water also.
Just something to think about.
smash.
Re:Coffee temperature reality (Score:2)
Hey, you're the one who brought up the tired and recycled "McDonald's Coffee Lawsuit Shows Stupidity of American Juries" motif. At least I think it was you, kinda hard to tell you AC's apart. You all look alike to me.
What? You weren't expecting a response?
Right.
Re:Coffee temperature reality (Score:3, Informative)
Sure.
212 F = 100 C
180 F = 82.2 C
140 F = 57.67 C
In other words, "Tort Reformer AC" is arguing that 85 - 95 C is the proper temperature at which to serve coffee (185-200F), whereas everyone with common sense is telling him that's nuts, and that 50 - 60 C is probably a better temperature at which to serve coffee, although even that's a little too hot to drink. But we all prefer it a little on the hot side, cince it will cool down before you finish it.
Actually, once you put it all into degrees Celsius, it
Re:Coffee temperature reality (Score:2)
140 F = 60 C
Not sure how I screwed that up. Anyway, it's a pretty small error and doesn't change much; the 50-60 C cited above is still the best serving range (131-140 C).
Re:Coffee temperature reality (Score:2)
131-140 F, not C.
OK, I'm a typo-ridden doofus.
Re:140 degrees is cold, in coffee terms (Score:2)
Umm, sorry, but I think my sugestion is a little more realistically achievable than yours.
You know, the funny thing is, if you check out facts on this case, as presented in court, even McDonalds admitted that coffee at 180 degrees was too hot to drink and would cause 3rd degree burns. They didn't want to change the holding temperature, not because it was drinkable at 180 degrees (they admitted it wasn't), but because they felt most of their customers weren't d
Re:Gimme your money! (Score:1)
It's eeeeevile!
Re:Grokking McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit (Score:1)
Fact one the coffee is no where near the boiling point, it was at 130 F almost hundred degrees cooler than boiling.
The cups are labeled HOT coffee for a reason.
An Appeals court overturned most if not all of the award. For some odd reason someone in the Appeals court thought it was dumb to stick a cup of known hot liquid in your crotch and blame someone else when it spilled.
A minor correction (Score:1, Informative)
The coffee in the lawsuit was 180 degrees, not 130 degrees. That is still well short of the boiling point, however (and within or below recommended serving temperature for coffee)
For some odd reason someone in the Appeals court thought it was dumb to stick a cup of known hot liquid in your crotch and blame someone else when it spilled.
And, for some odd reason, people here try to get us to
Re:Grokking McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit (Score:2)
Strange. The victim had third degree burns. 130 F isn't hot enough to cause third degree burns. How can you explain this?
Re:Grokking McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit (Score:2)
lol, he was working at mcdonalds at the time, that should tell you enough. . .
Re:Grokking McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit (Score:4, Interesting)
The silly thing is that saying that McDonalds was unfairly treated. McDonalds believes in using and abusing the courts. The case cited is an prime example of such abuse. Another good example of this was when they sued private individuals in England for claiming that the food was not good. It was a waste of the courts time and an abuse of the laws of England.
A few big lawsuits are publicized to make the public believe that the suits are costing significant amounts of profits. Most of these are a result of the companies attempt to abuse the courts to hound customers into submission. Anyway, we now know that what is costing profits is the embezzlement by top managers and other such corruption. Of course, a key defense to such corruption is shareholder lawsuits, which are becoming increasingly difficult for anyone but the biggest players.
Might i suggest that the lameness filter be modified to disallow the word McDonalds and lawsuit to be used in the same post.
Re:Grokking McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit (Score:2)
Seconded!
Re:Grokking McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit (Score:1)
You know, Hitler once sued McDonald's.
Godwin who?
Re:They were unfairly treated (Score:1)
That must be why stepladders are plastered with so many warning labels and 'stupid stickers' that they are more stickered up than the average NASCAR race car.
I peeled all the stickers off on my stepladder. In case anybody here is 'working' their way through law school, come on over and fall off it. It's right out there in the back yard. The fact that I removed
Re:We can end the McDonalds lawsuit discussion (Score:2)
I'd like to see your scull a whole fresh-poured cup of 185F coffee. Like you already said earlier, people sip until it passes the tounge temperature test. The
Re:Grokking McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit (Score:1)
I'm sure an AC like you can use the search facilities on the site and find out for yourself. In case you don't manage to find the prominent "Search" link to the upper left, I'll even hand it out for you : Search [groklaw.net]
Re:Groklaw? (Score:2)
Re:Groklaw? (Score:1)
Bob
Re:Groklaw? (Score:1)
I'm going to be 40 next month. Would you recommend an Xbox or a game cube in lieu of a PS2? Oh, wait. I never had enough ambition to be a dot-bomber, although I miss the days when my dot-bomber friends could afford to take me to lunch.