Replaced by Outsourcing -- What's a Geek to Do? 1166
SafariShane asks: "Yesterday I was fired from my position as 'Network Security Analyst' from a financial institution. I was pushed out by a 3rd party vendor, who labeled me the major security risk, after performing a 'vulnerability assessment.' At the time, I thought a vulnerability assessment of our network was a good idea, but in retrospect, it occurs to me that this company, who's other product is 'Outsourced Network Monitoring and Intrusion Detection' may pull this little trick everywhere they go. Has this happened to any other network security folks out there. Does anyone know if this is a common practice, and what's a geek to do if they find out a 3rd party assessment is on the way? If this happens again at another institution, should I just start polishing my resume right away?" Here's a question I always wish I could ask managers, whenever the topic of 'outsourcing' comes up: if dealing with programmers overseas is more appealing to the bottom line, why not let your programmers work from home for 50-80% of their current in-office pay? For those of you who feel the threat of Outsourcing breathing down your neck, what are you doing to try and stay in your current job, or even in this current market?
"Here comes the obligatory South Park reference:
- Perform Network Vulnerability Assessment
- ?
- Profit! (Sell Outsourced product)
I wouldn't even dream up the above situation, except that when the assessment was done, all results were hidden from me. The company presented the results not to the geeks that can interpret them, but directly to the executives that still think 'Clippy' is a great product.Label anyone who is responsible for network security as the risk, and get them fired.
I'll also note, because people will ask me anyway, if there were other problems. In my year on the job, there was only 1 network intrusion: Welchia, which was contained in twenty minutes. Anyone familiar with Welchia will know that it is no easy task. I was never reprimanded for anything. In fact, I received a 12.5% raise only two months ago for job performance.
I doubt what they did was illegal, but it's bad business at best. Here is a group of network security geeks, who get other network security geeks fired, so they can increase their bottom line.
I'd like to hear comments from folks this has happened to, and what did you do as a result?"
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.. (Score:5, Funny)
Problem solved.
And then get arrested, convicted... (Score:5, Insightful)
He got hosed by an unethical competitor, but he can't do crap about that now. Time to brush off the resume.
Re:And then get arrested, convicted... (Score:5, Interesting)
Courts tend to look at libel related to employment very favorably. He should contact a lawyer.
Re:And then get arrested, convicted... (Score:5, Funny)
Yea, I learned that from the spiderman movie, too.
Re:And then get arrested, convicted... (Score:5, Informative)
If you haven't seen it, you should. It's really a very funny look at office politics and lost jobs.
Re:And then get arrested, convicted... (Score:5, Funny)
If you haven't seen it, you should. It's really a very funny look at office politics and lost jobs.
Unfortunately, for many people, it's not in the comedy section of the video store. It's in the documentary section.
Re:And then get arrested, convicted... (Score:4, Funny)
Where were you when Samir Nagonnaworkherenomore was panicing, huh? HUH?!
Re:And then get arrested, convicted... (Score:5, Funny)
I don't know how many times I've said this, but I served eight years in Federal prison and the incidence of rape is much lower than the news media (including /.) would have you believe (at least if you're over forty and not terribly attractive...heh, heh).
Well, thanks for dashing our hopes about the future of the SCO executives.
Re:Red Herring had a different perspective. (Score:5, Informative)
What's a Geek to Do? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What's a Geek to Do? (Score:5, Funny)
Two hunters are out in the woods when one of them collapses. He doesn't seem to be breathing and his eyes are glazed. The other guy whips out his phone and calls the emergency services. He gasps: "My friend is dead! What can I do?" The operator says: "Calm down, I can help. First, let's make sure he's dead." There is a silence, then a shot is heard. Back on the phone, the guy says: "OK, now what?"
Re:What's good for the goose is good for the gande (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What's good for the goose is good for the gande (Score:5, Informative)
So how about listing on slashdot all the passwords, usernames, maybe the list of salaries of all the employees, ip addresses of back doors, list all that crap here for us and we will politely help the company get back on track to super-security awareness.
Seriously though, sorry to hear about what happened. Wonder what field the next 'boom' is going to be in
Re:What's good for the goose is good for the gande (Score:5, Insightful)
I've rarely seen outsourcing go well. Now we're talking about info-sec? You're going to outsource the "guardians at the gate" job to a company whose tactics should be seen as seedy by the dumbest of Pointy-Haired-Bosses??? They'll get what they deserve. Maybe not sooner, but certianly later. Considering they are a financial company, the PR cost alone could be disasterous.
Pardon my language, but f**k 'em. I'd leave cordially but expressing reservation about their tactics and ability to execute. IMHO there's no reason to burn bridges, IT is too close knit to do that. Plus there's no benefit for the guy who got canned. They could come back and beg him to return if there's a bridge left standing
Finally, companies who act like greedy sheep are inevitably led to slaughter. I know, I work for one and we're getting killed for bone-headed accountant-driven decisions very similar to those decribed here...
Re:What's good for the goose is good for the gande (Score:5, Interesting)
That's what I did. My former employer of five years spent several times my salary-to-date on consultants from Gartner, who convinced management that everything I'd built was wrong and they should spend my salary for the next five years on Microsoft products. I helped them roll it all out, they showed me the door... and now (from what I hear from a few friends there) they are hurting. {shrug}
Re:What's good for the goose is good for the gande (Score:5, Insightful)
That cocksucker is a major liability, and not someone I'd want working on my network. What if I had a legit reason for firing him, say he installs WinXP on my Linux cluster, then I gotta worry about passwords and e-mails, etc.
Re:What's good for the goose is good for the gande (Score:5, Interesting)
Then when he's able to hack in through the outsourced security system, he should state that the outsourced company's report was right -- a disgruntled former IT person is a big threat, but since he knows the tricks he'll know how to counteract that threat.
Re:What's good for the goose is good for the gande (Score:5, Insightful)
But, it wouldn't suggest that a disgruntled IT guy is a threat, insomuch as the "new-an-improved" security is inadequate. Afterall, he wasn't disgruntled until he was fired.
His work should indicate that this ex-employee isn't a threat, because he knows too much about the network... It should indicate that the new security company dosen't know shit. Otherwise, you're going to setup a mutual distrust between the company and the IT people. In other words: The IT people won't trust that their jobs are safe, and the company won't trust that the IT people won't fuck them over because they are mad.
Personally, I wouldn't want to work in a place that's being kept in check by the threat of mutual assured destruction. It's too much tension. Bad for the blood pressure.
The employees should be working on the same team as the management--with the same goals (higher productivity and profits, and all that garbage) If the managers see this quality in an IT person, they become quite invaluable as a bridge between the tech (which they don't understand), and the money (which they want more of).
This sort of activity used to be upheld by the promise of profit-sharing (the more the company makes, the more you make, so if you save the company money, you get it back as a NICE bonus in the end). It's all but gone now, but you can use the same ideas to make yourself a truely invaluable person to the company (with a check to prove it).
Re:What's good for the goose is good for the gande (Score:5, Interesting)
I've worked for too many large corporations don't ever think management is going to think logicly.
Re:What's good for the goose is good for the gande (Score:4, Interesting)
and the lesson is ... If employee morale is rock bottom, there's generally a damn good reason at the top. Look for a job elsewhere before its too late.
As for offering to work from home in place of outsourcing? Are you nutz You would just be proving that womeone could do the job remotely ... ie in some place that is beyond even the third world. Lets face it, India and China are now complaning about jobs being ousoureced. Obviously the work is being done by krrgs from the planet Zog.
Re:What's good for the goose is good for the gande (Score:4, Insightful)
Shane, this sounds like a truly rotten experience. And some of the advice you have gotten here is pretty crappy too.
Before you consider taking revenge, do you think there is anyone in management or H.R. to whom you could have a conversation? The idea that management had had a sudden, abrupt reversal in their confidence in your ability and trustworthiness must be a disturbing one. Perhaps there is someone to whom you can turn to for some reassurance.
"I thought I was doing a good job. I did get a 12.5% merit increase in pay. But the secrecy around how my employment was terminated is disturbing. Is there something in the security report that will cause the firm to give future employers a less than enthusiastic endorsement of my skills? I'd like to know this."
You don't absolutely know the outside consultant's slagged your performance or trustworthiness. And, if I read your account correctly, you don't know that your former employers turned around and hired the consulting firm to replace you.
Good luck.
Re:What's good for the goose is good for the gande (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course it all depends on what context he was fired for. Are we getting the whole story here? Did you do any activities that could be considered a security risk?
Re:What's good for the goose is good for the gande (Score:5, Insightful)
- Look at and modify every file on the servers (changing ownership first, if necessary)
- Change anybody's password
- Shut down services at will
- Open up services and ports to the Internet, or elsewhere
- Modify firewall rules
The list could have been very long. Can you imagine the reaction of the executives when they saw that list?"Oh my god!!! That's a gaping vulnerability! Get rid of him, right now!"
Idiots
Re:What's good for the goose is good for the gande (Score:5, Interesting)
Here in Canada, you also can't get fired on the spot (well, not for this). You have to receive at least a verbal warning and/or a written warning first, outlining what it is you are doing wrong.
I don't know what the laws in the US are (or even if you are in the US), but you might want to check with a lawyer. A quick consult shouldn't cost you much, if anything.
Re:What's good for the goose is good for the gande (Score:5, Interesting)
If that's possible then yes, he should sue. It might be extremely difficult however.
I have some experience in this as I was fired as a security risk. The cause? I installed a firewall on my PC. The formal letter stated that this could interfere with their network firewall (a Cisco box that was very over-the-top for a small development company of twenty people).
Of course that wasn't the real reason. It was the refusal to work unpaid overtime and perhaps a tendancy to correct my boss that got me out. However, how do I go about getting this fixed in court? No matter how expert I am in IT (and I am quite expert), they can through an 'expert' back at me in court, and how will a judge know the difference.
And aside from that, what would be the charge? I'd already resigned and was working out my notice. The sole result is that any reference from my former employer now states that I was fired for 'Gross Misconduct.' The burden is on me to convince people that it wasn't fair.
A very nasty situation all round.
I wish the poster good luck if he finds a way to sue, but beware of getting into a credentials battle with various "experts," because most courts wont be able to assess your case on the basis of technical details.
Re:Can't beat 'em? Join 'em! (Score:4, Funny)
Wow, amazing!! I've been wanting a 32" TV all my life! Are you Amish or something?
Re:What's good for the goose is good for the gande (Score:5, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
I don't trust you (Score:5, Insightful)
I doo trust a company in India, tho.
They have scooby doo in india (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I don't trust you (Score:5, Interesting)
1) Medium to large size business do not trust individuals: only other businesses are trusted. A local Goodwill (yeah, really, Goodwill) used to outsource work to me on a very regular basis. I'd give them plenty of freebies (again, it's Goodwill) along with the outsourced work. Eventually they hired someone to take care of internal matters and the outsourced work finally stopped (he had a gripe with me apparently). The CEO didn't question his judgment because he was moving to Microsoft products and outsourcing to larger companies. It didn't matter that they were paying six times (I kid you not) as much for the same work, their firewall had been removed (the new guy didn't understand how to manage it), and they removed a perfectly stable Linux box in favor of Exchange (easier to maintain for him, but DID go down frequently). None of this mattered. The CEO and kin felt more comfortable with larger businesses despite the problems. They care about feeling better, not about how much they're paying or how often something goes down. They will excuse ANYTHING if they're happy.
2) This (security assessment) is a new tactic from a small group of companies/individuals that have been around for a while. Years ago I handled support for a local ISP. The ISP had (shame on them) sold bandwidth to an adjacent office which was plopped right on the main network (no bridge/firewall/etc). This office had a MUD server which was compromised and made a really great packet sniffer. Account info was snagged and used....by a **network security firm** working out of Canada. They changed a few passwords to get attention, then e-mailed the owner of the ISP with a 'Hey, we didn't do anything but we wanted you to know your setup is easily corrupted. We can supply you with services to prevent this in the future.'. It's like, some kind of dorky geek mafia.
The original submitter could be a dick or a great employee. Either way, it doesn't matter because these security goons are out there and using a much better tactic to get business. It's pathetic, but it's real and there are enough ignorant businesses out there to make it profitable. All the education in the world won't help some employers, they're just too fucking stupid. Maybe the submitter's best bet is to hook up with one of these shitty security firms....join 'em before they beat you out of the market (re: multiple bad security profiles).
Sorry for the long rant...too much coffee
Re:I don't trust you (Score:5, Informative)
My years in sys admin middle management taught me that some admins just don't want to speak the managers in suits. They automatically distrust the management, they resent that anyone who knows less about networking is being paid more and is manager of many departments. They view anyone who meets with management and eats lunch with management as a kiss-ass or someone not to be trusted. This to me is exactly the kind of attitude that holds people back from getting promotions, being recognized, and makes one more vulnerable to becoming a victim of downsizing. If management has no idea who you are and what you do all day then you are effectively nobody to them, you are just another labor expense on the accounting books.
The easiest way to let management know that you have value is find a problem, and don't just whine about, do a little homework and propose a practical solution along with some numbers as to how much it will cost/save the company. If your department manager is the type of prick who would try to steal credit for your brilliant ideas then walk around his desk and talk directly to his boss about your brilliant ideas... if you have enough of those conversations with that boss you may even find yourself being promoted to replace the prick who stole credit for all of your ideas. Don't be someone who complains all the time, try to be someone who has solutions rather than complaints. Leaders have answers, followers have complaints. Managers value people they can go to for answers.
So in summary if you make no attempt to talk to management then don't be surprised if they become more comfortable dealing with some out-sourced vendor then they are dealing with you... don't be surprised if someday the managers you hardly ever spoke to tell you to pack up your desk.
Re:I don't trust you (Score:5, Insightful)
The flaw in this plan is that most geeks, in my experience, have no desire to be promoted to management. We just want to do the work. The dream job for someone who is generally attracted to network security work is to be left alone most of the time by a boss who can realize that the fact that they haven't had to concern themselves with network security is a Good Thing. Then they throw more money.
The worst bosses I've ever worked for have been fellow geeks promoted above their social skill set. They are usually grumpy that they no longer get to play with the technology, and have to spend their days in meetings.
Re:I don't trust you (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, I could watch Scooby all day long and you wouldn't know...at first.
Software projects are tracked and managed. It soon would be apparent that your progress is not aligned with what the initial estimate was, and although you could give some bullshit reasons as to why your progress was not as expected, they would eventually get rid of you for somebody more efficient.
Working from home sounds like a really good idea, but I don't think it's going to happen (unfortunately). I work for a software consulting firm and we have some remote people that work from home because they have no other choice (they are too far away from the closest office). However, when I (or anybody in the office) asked about working from home, the excuse we were given was that it would break the "team environment". They value person-to-person interaction too much and they don't care whether you could do netmeeting, telephone conference, or video conference through the net.
Working from home means you don't interact with other team members as much as you would if you were in the same location, and you don't share your knowledge and experience with them. Now, you don't share the comments about last night's football game either, but that's another story.
Re:I don't trust you (Score:4, Insightful)
One of the most important things a manager must do is listen to his/her employees' ideas and criticisms, whether valid comments or not, they must be at least considered. If this doesn't happen, how can there be any chance for a) advancement, or b) true improvement of the product?
Maybe it's time for the technocratic war to begin. (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm on call 24x7x365 while the CEO sleeps.
The none technical types need to understand where info power resides.
Re:Maybe it's time for the technocratic war to beg (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm on call 24x7x365 while the CEO sleeps.
You sure have a funny definition of power.
Re:Maybe it's time for the technocratic war to beg (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Maybe it's time for the technocratic war to beg (Score:4, Insightful)
I probably just started a flamewar.
Re:Maybe it's time for the technocratic war to beg (Score:5, Insightful)
Try and hunt down an old sci-fi story called "The Roads Must Roll [wikipedia.org]," by Robert Heinlein.
Quick plot summary: In the future, American cities are interconnected by vast conveyor belts--called roads--which transports people and goods. A few political demagogues start convincing people that certain segments of society should be rewarded for doing "critical work." For example, the road mechanics realize that without them, society as a whole would be hosed.
So a faction within this group of mechanics decides to go on strike, shutting off the roads and committing vandalism. Sure enough, everything stops working as the factions battle it out for control over the roads.
The basic problem with their underlying thinking is this: There is no one ultimate locus of control. Our entire society is completely interdependent. If the network people quit doing what they do, things are hosed. The same goes for doctors, police, firefighters, manufacturers, and farmers.
Take another example: Miners. There's an old mining slogan that says, "If it isn't grown, it has to be mined." There's a great deal of truth to that. Without mining and miners, we're screwed. But does that mean that the mining industry deserves ultimate control over our society? It's like having your kidneys demand veto power over your brain because the brain cannot operate without them.
Management types think of themselves the same way you're asking computing types to think. According to their thinking, without a running business, you wouldn't have a job where you could ply your trade.
Every society strikes a balance between individualism and collectivism. We're all individuals, but we're also functional units within a larger system that keeps everyone alive. I think you've definitely drawn the line in a bad place. Whether computer gurus are under or overvalued is irrelevant; I strongly object to your basic premise: if we have the power to wreck everything, we have the right to do so if the system doesn't give us what we want. It's merely blackmail writ large.
Re:Maybe it's time for the technocratic war to beg (Score:4, Funny)
Better Lawyers than thugs (Score:4, Insightful)
So people banded together. THey called them gangs. Go watch gangs of New York. Tell me if that is how you want to live. Or in the days before The U.S.A split of from the U.K. look at how every major (present day) democracy in the world treated its own citizens. There was a reason the French started axing their own Aristocrats.
Yes, it is still about money and power. But lawyers and insurance firms are a vast improvment over roving gangs with knives and clubs.
It ain't perfect, but it is an improvement.
Re:Maybe it's time for the technocratic war to beg (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not necessarily true anymore. Dick Brown, for instance, was CEO of EDS for only about 4 years. He was recently handed about $36M and told to fuck off, and the company is still playing catch-up.
Mind you, having a Wall Street analyst downgrade their stock, only later to say "Wups, didn't mean it..." didn't help much either. What exactly is the liability there? EDS stock took a beating mainly because of that one moron, and he gets off with a wrist-slap and an apology?
What to do? (Score:5, Insightful)
What do to? Well, you're a casualty of corporate sleaze and politics. Read The Art Of War [gutenberg.net], get back on the horse and don't let yourself become a victim again.
That sounds cold, I know, but what else can you do? Dwelling on the issue won't pay the rent.
Re:What to do? (Score:5, Insightful)
Control is greatly undervalued in business. Often times, control is more important than your bottom line salary. You want to be in control without people knowing that you're in control - don't play politics or backstab people, just be very important to the bottom line and very trusted. If you are unable to make your boss realize that you are important, you should find another job as soon as possible. Also, ALWAYS keep a backup plan in place, enough money in the bank, and have lots of friends in your line of work to help give you an in to other job openings.
It's a cheery little Machiavellian world we live in.
A company making a protection racket? (Score:5, Insightful)
I say if your management is stupid enough to fall for the tricks without trusting you then they deserve what they get and you probably shouldn't have been working there in the first place.
Tom
Easy solution (Score:5, Interesting)
Get a job working with an outsourcer. Duh.
"Services" is where the IT business is going. And yes, there are outsourcing companies in the USA and various other non-India, non-China nations. Skilled, flexible talent is very valuable to a services company. And it's satisfying work because you're not stuck with one environment all the time -- you get to play with lots of different customer environments, picking up new skills along the way.
Basically, what I'm saying here is, quit whining. Make yourself a valuable person and you will find employment. And don't rest on your laurels, either: you have to constantly adapt and pick up new skills.
Now I shall sit back and wait to get modded down by the unemployed, disgruntled Slashdot hive mind, but my position on this issue stands.
Re:Easy solution (Score:5, Insightful)
That's all fine and dandy for those whom have a constantly shifting moral stance, or none at all...however some people, like the submitter of the story, would probably prefer to stick to their morals and avoid being a hypocrit.
Re:Easy solution (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Easy solution (Score:4, Funny)
A martyr complex and a superiority complex, all in one. Neat.
Re:Easy solution (Score:4, Funny)
Wow.. this is some really good advice. If I were any of you, I'd listen to this guy, he really knows what he's talking about..
Now, would you hurry up and fix me my double tall latte??
---
You can get more of what you want with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word.
-- Bumper Sticker
Re:Easy solution (Score:5, Interesting)
What I'd do is file for unemployment immediately. This would be good to find out if they claim they fired you for cause. In Texas at least, if they want to make that claim, it has to be done in writing which means they would have to commit to those statements. If you wanted to pursue it, you could eventually find out why they say you were fired. Likely they will just take the hit on their unemployment insurance and not contest your unemployment.
If you think that something was a little bit shady, like a manager getting a kickback from the consultants you might try to use your current contacts to feel that out. Unlikely you'll find out anything there but if you do you could be a real bastard about it.
I ran into a situation where I was hired by a business consulting group to do some work they normally didn't do. I had contract signed and everything when they never called back with a start date. After two weeks of expecting a firm date, I called them and they said it was a no go. I suspect they filled the position internally after using me to land the contract. They had accidentally let me know the company they were pitching and it turns out the President of that company is a family friend. All I had to do was ask an uncle to ask this guy over lunch if they had someone doing this job from company xxx. After weighing the possibilities of what I would/could do if I was right, I decided I just didn't want to know and time would be best spent concentrating on a job/career instead of money and time lost. When lawyers get involved the only sure thing is that the lawyers make money.
Not just in IT (Score:5, Interesting)
Many hospitals are contracting with large national companies to provide physicians services that were traditionally provided "in house." This is most easily done for things like Radiology, where films can be digitized and shipped anywhere in the world to be read by a room full of radiologists. It's also being done (and has been for years) with Pathology services... send your slides and tissue specimens to a big lab to be examined rather than the employing a bunch of local pathologists. Admittedly, there are some economies of scale that enter into the picture... "sending out" can be more efficient.
This is also a big deal in my own specialty (emergency medicine); competition is brutal. There are large national "contract management" ER groups that are constantly approaching hospital administrators with sales people, brochures, and a pitch about their high-quality, lower-cost emergency medicine care. Contracts change hands in ER all the time, which is why a lot of ER docs live like gypsies... if your hospital outsources their ER services, you get fired, and have to find another job (if you live in a smaller area with only one or two hospitals, you can be SOL... time to uproot the family and move.)
How do I/we fight it? Relationships and service. We make ourselves available to the administration to address concerns and problems. We build relationships with the community physicians, so that they KNOW who's taking care of their patients in the ER, and KNOW they can trust us to take care of the critically-ill. We integrate ourselves into hospital committees, and get involved in the community. We implement Quality Assurance and Peer Review to ensure that we're practicing up to the standard of care. It can be a lot of work trying to keep your job (never thought you'd hear a doctor say that, did you?).
In ER, losing your contract/job or not usually has nothing to do with bad medicine... it's failure to "play the game" that sinks you. There may be a parallel here for the infosec geek that was fired... If there's one area where the prototypical "geek" personality probably hurts the most, it's in the eschewing of those critical relationships. It's great to have m4d 5ki11z in the server room... but a little face time with the powers that be could make the difference between paycheck and pink slip...
There's no guarantees, however... even with all my efforts, I can still get sold out if my hospital administrator gets a wild hair, or just plain doesn't like me.
It's business reality for lots of folks, not just IT.
Ummm... get a new job (Score:4, Insightful)
If your company was willing to do that, you probably don't want to work there anyway.
it sucks, but Ob-la-di ob-la-da life goes on
Re:Ummm... get a new job (Score:5, Funny)
Oh well shit, is that all it takes? I've been going about this all wrong!
I'm gonna get a pony too, while I'm out getting things. Anyone else want something?
just move on (Score:5, Insightful)
Consultancy? Trivial! (Score:5, Insightful)
In any IT situation, the guy/s who knows the system administration/root passwords is always a potential risk. They've fired you, but they must have someone who knows the stuff you do, root passwords and all.
Hey, wait a minute, now the new guy is the risk. Fire him and pass the root passwords to the next guy. Repeat to fade...
Sounds like someone has been solving the wrong problem.
Capitalism is a funny thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Editor's comments (Score:5, Insightful)
Based on the description of the problem this doesn't seem to have anything to do with oversea's labour. It's just that he was replaced by an outsourcing company (in his own country).
About the reduction in pay comment, if you were sent home with a 50% pay cut would you be happy about it? Or would you be hitting monster.com on your 'extended' lunch breaks. I don't think it's really practical to half-way lay-off people, because the employees won't be at all loyal after that.
Re:Editor's comments (Score:5, Informative)
Now if they tried to send me home at half pay, fuck em. I'll take the money and find a new damn job.
You were set up (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You were set up (Score:5, Insightful)
When they say you were the "security risk" they mean that a single person in charge of security is not as reliable as their managed service, because you can become sick, disgruntled or killed crossing the street, but their crack team of mega analysts never sleep, cover for each other as needed and are immune to bus collisions. All for the low-low price of only 3x your salary.
I don't recommend you mention your ex-company's name publically since you have already lost this battle and you do not need to be seen as disgruntled in any way (cut off all contact to save yourself, otherwise the enemy consultants may blame the next breakin on YOU. they might anyway).
However it *would* be nice to know the name of the consulting company that shafted you.
Re:You were set up (Score:4, Insightful)
work from home discount? (Score:5, Insightful)
do you think that this would be a good idea, overall? think about where this winds up going if it becomes a trend in, say, 3-5 years time: it becomes a price war, and it's one that domestic employees cannot win. cost of living is just higher here than in a number of other countries.
i think this is a very, very bad idea, and one that's not just bad for you personally, but also for people in the industry overall. it would have the effect of dropping IT salaries across the board. in essence, you would be arguing that you're overpaid. not a good idea, IMHO.
that said: shame the PHBs were the ones making the decision. were there many others affected? this smells like a small bloodletting to help a business in a still underperforming industry cut some heads and increase profitability.
ed
My time is as valuable in or out of office. (Score:5, Insightful)
Working from home will already save them money on heating, cooling, parking, insurance, and office space. There are also tax benefits in certain areas of the country for implementing such environment and traffic friendly procedures.
Things are looking up (Score:5, Interesting)
Things seem to be looking better out there. New jobs will replace the old ones lost.
the good, the bad, the ugly (Score:5, Interesting)
- the good : I've had lots of time to play with my 2 year
old son
- the bad : I've got a family to feed
- the ugly : I'm learning that experience in the industry
hurts ones chances te land a job, as we're considered "too expensive"
I've found a few consulting gigs to help, but now I'm moving out of the Bay Area - can't afford to live here anymore.Why (on a macro scale) is outsourcing bad? (Score:4, Insightful)
It is very hard on those who it affects, but the economic reality is that the money saved in efficiencies (even if it only goes towards fat cat bonuses) is very tangible.
There is illiquidity in labour pools because of immigration laws etc., but the internet removes these barriers. The global workplace is here, and as a result the market is freer than before.
It is quite feasible that if (eg) Russia in fifty years time will farm out its "boring" nanotech analysis work to the US. Like it or not, standards of living in 2nd and 3rd world countries are going to improve, sometimes at the expense of sections of the 1st world. However, overall and in the long-term, competition leads to better economies all round.
Perception is the reality (Score:5, Insightful)
The guy could be right, the guy could be wrong - that is completely irrelevant. The percieved reality is:
the guy was in charge of network security
the third-party audit was performed (why? did they look for an excuse to dump him?)
Vulnerability was found
The guy was sacked.
That is all that matters. Waste your time - blame outsourcing, Republicans, little green men.
Get over it, fix the resume and get back into the game. American corp environment is completely free of common sense and logic.
What I would do. (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally, I would set down my concerns; about the possible conflict of interest in the study; about the lack of technical oversight of the reports findings in a letter and send it to the company CEO.
The letter should be couched in such a way to make it clear that you are writing becauase you are concerned about the company's security; not because you are disgruntled. Make that very clear, mention in passing the facts about your recent appraisals, and bonus payments.
Leave the CEO in no doubt that you are a professional and you are concerned that the company may be being set up. Tell the CEO that (s)he should not hestitate to contact you, to discuss the issues.
At the very least it will make you feel better. It may even get the company to rethink its policy.
Re:What I would do. (Score:4, Funny)
Wrong war (Score:5, Insightful)
The first thing I would have done is mention the name of the company that screwed you. I think this would give other in-house specialists pause before recommending them to management. Our own company's business model is built around providing the opposite sort of experience from the one you described. When we audit, we work with the IT staff, not against them, and we do so with the understanding of having "been there" (because I have been). We try to position ourselves as the guys who will tell it like it is, without panic, arrogance, or exaggeration, and we tell it to you, not your boss's boss.
I have enormous disrespect for any network security firm who attempts to abuse the politics of their client's business to get ahead. Getting somebody fired in order ro pursue a business opportunity is beneath contempt and possible grounds for a lawsuit. I wish you luck.
Ask the Headhunter (Score:4, Informative)
I can't recommend Nick Corcodilos' Ask The Headhunter [asktheheadhunter.com] enough. This advice is just wonderful, either for getting a new job, or for showing your worth to your current employer. It takes a little bit of mental adjustment to accept what he says (and it may be a bit scary), but he is absolutely right about how to go about it! The problem we in IT face right now is the feeling that our worth is going down as many of us are replaced through outsourcing and foreign labor. Brush up your skill set, but most importantly, learn how to apply your talents to solve real business problems in terms of dollars and you will never doubt your worth (nor will your potential employers).
ATH's advice is great. Be sure to get the book, read as much of the website as possible, and subscribe to the weekly newsletter. It's the only HTML mail I receive every week that I actually look forward to and enjoy reading.
Why wait until you're out of a job? (Score:4, Informative)
It always confuses me why people don't keep their resume up to date at all times. It's much easier to ammend your resume as you are doing things than it is if you wait until you need it quickly and then have to rack your memory to dredge up the things you did over the past x years.
I've had this happen. It doesn't work. (Score:5, Interesting)
In the space of 3 months, two separate consulting firms recommended our tasks be outsourced. We all lost our jobs, and what comes out in the wash? The outsourced monitoring company is a subsidiary of one of the consulting firms. No surprises there.
Now, my employers have gone from having a small dedicated team who treated their equipment as their very own, to having a useless 'monitoring' company who not only can't detect an outage to save themselves (when the most clueless of managers has needed to contact them to ASK if a server is down when it's been out all night, things are bad) but don't actually do fixes themselves, but re-outsource those also
Last I heard email went out for 4 days. Our worst was a 3 hour fix, which was a combination of intermittent server problems and a backup clean slate machine that failed right after install, so we needed to source and rebuild a box from scratch. The new firm's best time is over a day.
The only thing I like about the whole situation is they're getting what they deserved, and are locked into it for another 18 months. Morals be damned, schadenfreude is fun.
I am a security consultant... (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the first things I say when I meet with a company is tell them that it's not the IT persons fault that the company is insecure. Network security is a relatively new field that ALL companies in existance are trying to get their arms around. I do NOT want to put anyone out of a job just for the sake of getting some consulting dollars. I feel that it is my responsibility to train the internal staff to be more aware of security issues rather than to terminate everyone and outsource it all.
How can anyone thats not even on-site on a daily basis make the network more secure? When it comes to real security, you need to start with the folks that know the network the best. If they're resistant to change, then fire them. If they're willing to learn, train them.
Network insecurity is fundamentally a management problem. Security inititaves must come from the top down, not the bottom up. I have never met a network administrator yet that has set out to create an insecure network. They likely were ignorant to the threats - therefore they needed training, which should have been ordered by management. Otherwise, you have security aware employees that are trying to push security up the chain to management, and management is completely unresponsive.
I recently blasted a luddite CEO for not paying enough attention to his IT department. His company was compromised by a hacker and I came in to clean things up. I asked him; "Do you realize that your business relies 100% on what goes on in that server room?"
Things are now changing in that company. We've now established data owners on the executive committee (Those that will hang if the data they own gets compromised), and now the IT department actually has a budget. 80% of the time I spend doing my security consulting is with executives, the remainder is with the tecnical staff giving them direction and training/pointers.
Anyone that preaches anything different is trying to sell a magic fix for security, which doesn't exist.
Great Logic. (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh there's a fantastic idea. All I need to do now is figure out how to live without paying for food, clothing or rent and I'll be all set.
Do we really need to go over this again? Repeat after me: You cannot compete with 3rd world labor costs. Ok, now just the guys! Good, now just the girls...Oh right, there's no girls here.
The only way you're going to be able to keep your job is to do something that offshore workers can't do. What is that, you ask? Well, you could start my actually caring about the business that you work for. Too many IT people are so concerned about the technical aspects of thier jobs that they don't take the time to learn (and care about) how the business they work for actually makes money. This may have been OK in the late 90's, but IT people are getting the harsh reminder now that the reason that you have a job is not to play with the latest technology...it's to make money.
It's your job as an IT professional to bridge the gap between business and technology. You need to be thinking about things like Return on Investment. You need to be thinking about the business needs of your customer...keeping in mind that your customer is probably not a techie like you and only cares about things like "How much does it cost", and "Will it work with what I have now" and not whether or not it runs on Linux. Most importantly, you need to be thinking about money first and technology second. Only someone who is physically present at your place of employment is going to have enough information to make decisions based on those priorities, which is why people who ignore them are finding their jobs shipped overseas.
Outsourcing wont be here for long.. (Score:5, Informative)
The pluses -
(1) Benefit in terms of costs. Well they bill us 30 bucks for a software developer where here I would assume it will be around 60.. Whoopee doo..
(2) The supposed 24 hour day where your team onsite would plug 12 straight hours and your offshore team would plug in another 12 hours, therefore giving the client the impression that his project was worked upon for 24 hours..
(3) Now that implementation is made seperate and outsourced, the client just needs to focus on the business aspect and the designm therefore having more time to themselves to focus on issues that need attention
Minuses
(1) Cost is not that much better. Quite soon, firms will try to up the prices and then you will lose the benefit in terms of cost
(2) The 24 hour Day - Its quite different from what you are led to believe. Mostly both teams would take a couple of hours everyday trying to understand what the other has done, interact and to a certain extent, also play the blame game.
(3) The client would find himself being pulled more often back in to the implementation and design, since his offshore partner cant understand the design or has a "better" design. Chaos ensues.
Mostly from my experiences, what makes all the difference is the people who are developing this offshore. If they are intelligent enough and has good communication abilities, then you have a success story. If what you have is a guy who did a 14 day java crash course and has one year experience in plugging java code in to Helloworld.java, then you have an absolute wreck waiting to happen. It happened to me, I had two stupid asses with whom I spent 3-4 hours every night trying to drill in, the architecture, the requirements, the implementation details. And then I would wake up in the morning and they would have probably coded 10 lines and sent two emails with questions which either are stupid or should have been asked the night before. So what you have is two asswipes who just billed you for 16 hours and turned out 10 lines of code, of which 9 you will probably rewrite and a bunch of questions which doesnt amount to nada.
I dont think that any firm who is currently doing outsourcing has thought about the actual implementation through and through. They are all given rosy pictures of intelligent professionals back home plugging away on their keyboards churning out code that works on the first try.
More so, in a few years, the real picture would come out where probably 10% outsourcing actually churned out something positive and the rest 90% lost money, less money in fact, on projects which had no direction, no able offshore partner and a bunch of developers who doesnt know the difference between a class and an object if it kicked them in the ass with it.
Sorry I just had to rant, since I spent a better part of my night trying to work with some idiots and two days ago I kicked them out of the project. And in a combined 300 hour period, they coded two classes, and the style of coding will make you puke.
Re:Bigot (Score:4, Informative)
I am as Indian as they get
I wasnt issuing a blanket statement about all Indian outsourcing firms. I am merely referring to the fact that most of the firms who indulge in outsourcing are plainly jumping on the bandwagon with nary a thought about its implications in the long run. And hence outsourcing isnt here to stay, it will blow over very soon when firms and managers realize that it makes more sense to have the team onsite rather than having someone do most of the work at night when you arent around to manage.
And if your offshore partner is a plain schmuck, like was mine, they will shaft you at every step possible, by overbilling you, by working on other projects in the hour they bill you. Believe me, I have been a witness to this and much more.
It could have been my company (Score:5, Insightful)
I feel safe saying that every engineer I work with understands that our service is provided to supplement existing security practices. We can provide some security services which companies cannot perform on thier own. Whether because of cost or technical reasons. We cannot replace a companies entire security team. There are too many small details which need to be handled which an MSSP cannot do remotely. Nor do we want to. We'd also much rather work with a knowledgeable insider than get an imcompetant IT manager who's claim to fame was programming cobol 20 years ago.
My guess is, some overzealous sales weenie got you canned. He probably pitched the MSSP services to the suits. The suits probably replied they already had in house security expertise. The sales weenie, fearing he would lose the sale, pitched the MSSP as a replacement for you. Something he never should have done. Most sales people will do anything they have to do to make the sale.
Security risk? (Score:5, Insightful)
The lowest bidder does not nescesarily produce a quality product. When is the last time you found real wood in a piece of furniture in our country?
I have heard the statement that the market is moving overseas to customers in China and India, and thus it is imperitive to hire from those localities. But why? If there are no skilled labor or engineering jobs left in the country, what will people do to make ends meet? Occupations at the top of the food chain will suffer as well. Already CEOs in some companies are being replaced by their foreign counterparts, and while the ousted CEO may have money in the bank, his children will end up in a shrinking service industry. Why will it shrink? Because the people they serve will no longer have any money.
When labor went away, blue collar workers were forced to retrain in other fields, many just retired. They pushed thier children to get degrees in engineering, law, and medicine. Now the engineering jobs will be gone.
Who will pay the taxes to support those millions who will retire in the next few years? Not the engineers and laborers, they live in China and India.
What industry would you tell a young adult to get into, if all of them are destined to either be outsourced, or priced out of existence?
Without the brain the body dies.
Topic For Election (Score:4, Insightful)
The other side of the story. (Score:5, Informative)
1. Security firms are told to audit against a certain set of criteria when the audit, be it GLBA, HIPAA, or one of the open security standards. Our work only identifies human security risks in process and policy, not people. If you were individually and specifically labelled a security risk, you should demand to know why.
2. The firm's auditors likely had nothing to do with the loss of your job. Rather, it was your management. Managed Security Firms have two sales models: Unfunded Risk, and Savings. My guess is that their sales team was working on the Savings principle and presented a more cost effective security solution. Your management team decided that cost savings were more important than your job. I hate being a catalyst for that kind of change, because I don't like seeing good people get laid off. Most of our clients use us as a supplement, rather than a replacement. I wish it always worked that way.
3. You lost your job. But we're hiring, and we have a hell of a lot more fun than should be legal. Jobless security professionals and analysts, feel free to reply.
Network Security Analyst - bad position (Score:5, Insightful)
If all you did there was security, then you were in a bad position to begin with. Security should be a part of everything that is done, not handled simply by one person somewhere.
Network engineer - The person or persons responsible for designing, managing, and maintaining the enterprise network should be the ones responsible for its security through all aspects of their work. Security has to be designed in to begin with, so that the network has the absolute minimum exposure and still provides a maximum ability for authorized staff to monitor and control it, while all other authorized staff can make full intended use of the network.
Systems administrator - The person or persons responsible for selecting, installing, configuring, operating, and administering computer systems, both servers as well as workstations and desktops, should be the ones responsible for its security through all aspects of their work. Security has to be part of all the procedures so that the systems have the absolute minimum exposure while allowing authorized staff to perform the functions the systems are intended for.
Programmer/analyst - The person or persons responsible for designing, programming, testing, and deploying new applications, or changes to existing applications, should be the ones responsible for its security through all aspects of their work. Security has to be designed into the way the application works, into its program code, properly and thoroughly tested, and then further verified once the application is up and running. And this has to be done while the application can still be fully used by all authorized staff, clients, customers, etc.
Get the picture?
Sorry to burst your bubble, but there should not be just one person who handles security. Depending on the nature of the business, one person might be the one who handles security coordination, but that isn't a techie/geek job; it should be more along the lines of an auditor who would be a paper pusher kind of person at businesses like banks and investment firms.
As to your current situation I advise the following:
Hire a lawyer. Have this lawyer contact the company pretending to be your new potential employer, and ask them for reference information about you. Actually do this twice (be sure completely different people call and pretend to be completely different companies). In one case your "new" position should basically be described as one similar to what you had at the company that outsourced you out. In the other case your "new" position should basically be central to your non-security skill set, such as a network administrator or network engineer (or whatever is appropriate for you). If they give you a good recommendation, then move on with your life and don't worry about it (just don't open your own personal accounts there, etc). However, if they give you a bad recommendation (such as "he was assessed to be a security risk") then discuss with your lawyer that situation and determine what can be done (you may have a case for a defamation lawsuit against either your employer or the outsourcing company).
Be aware that most companies do tend to try to pretect themselves from lawsuits when giving references. They may very well not specify any problems. But that can also be interpreted by future employers as a problem, if they didn't give you a glowing recommendation. You'll have to determine how that will affect your career future.
You might want to start your own small "security management and monitoring services company". There are lots of smaller businesses that will need this kind of service (whether they know that or not ... but that's a salesman's job to work on), but are too small to hire someone full time, and not big enough to hire the big security contracting firms. In a few years, as the big security firms expand to the smaller businesses (to keep up equity growth as their big business market saturates), they may come along and offer to buy up your business. If you play your cards right, you could end up being more "successful" than the managers of the financial institution that fired you.
Re:Network Security Analyst - bad position (Score:4, Insightful)
Good theory, but I suspect that a lot of lawyers might balk at misrepresenting themselves in this way. The other issue it that it likely won't get any information. Because of this very scenario, many companies will not offer "recommendations" for former employees; they'll verify start and end dates for employment, salary, etc. -- factual information -- but won't provide anything that might be considered subjective for fear of a lawsuit like this.
I'll also echo another poster in saying that while your situation does suck and was clearly handled badly, it may not be that you personally represented the security risk. If (and I don't know this to be the case) you were the sole person responsible for security, or your group couldn't provide 24/7/365 active monitoring (real eyes reviewing data at all times, not just responding to specific types of alerts), then the very existence of your job could be viewed as a security risk. It's the company's fault for setting things up that way in the first place, but they may well be right to change their approach to security management.
This doesn't mean that the company will provide better services, of course, simply that the decision may have reflected an attempt to correct a bigger problem...only time will tell whether the correction itself creates more problems for them.
If you were the only Network Security Engineer... (Score:4, Insightful)
You are the ONLY one who knows what's going on with the network security-wise. You could have them penetrated 10 ways to Sunday and they'd have to take your word for it that they're secure.
That's the first point. The second point is that you didn't get screwed over by a network security geek, you got screwed over by a salesman who makes money for some hot-shot CEO who pays a few network security geeks to do far more work than they should be handling. I just got myself fired from a job for "not fitting in". This meant that I had personal and professional objections to monitoring network connectivity, security, e-mail, webhosting, and VPN for some 150 customers and 4-500 sites at 50 hours a week as one of 6 people doing the job. Meanwhile, the 10 sales guys have a "Vice President" title hanging off their names, don't have a clue how to use a computer, and are promising the moon while the CEO rakes it in.
This situation is a real issue. Most of these companies are taking advantage of federal legislation requiring a certain level of security for a bank. And while it's not fair to you, you DO constitute a security risk as a sole security person. On the other hand, you also can't go back to your employer in a month and say, "Your security is full of holes now with this new provider, here let me show you." The bank's been swindled, you're unemployed, and an overworked staff just got more overworked. It's a lousy situation all around. The only thing you can do is move on.
Though I don't envy you trying to explain away getting fired as a security risk on your resume. That's probably the second-most unfair thing about the whole deal.
Workers Rights (Score:5, Interesting)
Corporate America has as much to do with the Adam Smith model as the Bolshevist U.S.S.R. It's not even related to Marx' model of capitalism, for in Corporate America, capital is as alientated from controlling the means of production as labor is. Instead, what you have is a management class which calls the shots and enriches itself at the expense of both workers and owners - can you say Enron, Adelphi, Worldcom etc etc.
Sure a worker has the "freedom" to say "fuck you" to his boss and look for another job. In theory. In practice, as the job market shrinks despite the "improving" economy (i.e. the management class being further enriched) those jobs are very hard to come by. So the worker has to bite his tongue as his workload is doubled, as her boss wittles away more and more of her "perks," as the threat of outsourcing is used to bludgeon him into obedience.
Saying to someone "go out and upgrade your skills" is also BS. A friend of mine is in his mid-40s, extremely talented, engineer/MBA out of work for a year and a half. Who's going to hire people in their 40s and 50s, no matter how much talent and experience they have, no matter how upgraded their skills are? And you young 'uns are going to get there faster than you think.
Corporate America demands obedience, makes people work like slaves, uses them, chews them up and throws them out when they no longer are useful. Maybe we should just kill off laid of workers so we don't have to worry about unemployment insurance and welfare?
And no I am not speaking out of personal bitterness. I have a successful consultancy business and work for myself. But even if you believe in ultra-selfishness, a society with many poor, disaffected people is a very scary and dangerous place to live in. This is an issue that effects all of us, not just the laid off.
Re:One word: (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:One word: (Score:4, Informative)
In places like Virginia, DC and Maryland (I think MD), these are Right to work states, meaning, they can terminate your employment for breathing in the wrong direction, and they dont even have to tell you why.
Re:One word: (Score:4, Informative)
Uhm excuse me but that's not true.
The world is not the US. Where I work if you've worked somewhere for 2 years or more then they can't just sack you. In mainland Europe they have evn stronger worker's rights.
So please, before submitting, remember that /. has an international audience and the US != The World.
Re:One word: (Score:4, Informative)
Except that it's not. You have to have cause for dismissal in most states, and the employees have to have been informed of the rules and disciplinary procedures and causes for dismissal. You can't even fire someone for being late, unless they were told that being late is firable.
Layoffs are different, though. You can lay someone off for whatever reason (services no longer required is the common one), but then they get severance packages, or whatever.
Trust me, I know. I worked in HR for 2 years - we had a lot of turnover, and we'd have to fire people for being late, or not being properly attired (the job required uniforms) etc. And they'd of course file a claim for wrongful dismissal, and then we'd have to send a representative to the dept of labor, and if the rep didn't show up, the employee automatically won. And if the rep couldn't prove that the employee had received the handbook which contained the rules for dismissal, the employee automatically won.
Re:One word: (Score:5, Insightful)
Can you tell your boss to sod off and never show up to work again? Yes.
Can you find a job at another company, sometimes even a competitor, and instantly go work there with little fear of backlash from your current employer? Yes.
If a company lets you go, are you entitled to unemployment compenstation of some sort? Yes.
Can a company legally tell another company that you don't bathe, you write shitty code and your mother-in-law calls you 17 times a day distracting you at work? No.
We have rights, they just don't seem to be as nice when you're the one getting let go for no reason. Rights go both ways, unfortunately it's usually the employer that is on the receiving end of the benefit.
Re:One word: (Score:4, Interesting)
Sure, if you don't mind not earning money.
Can you find a job at another company, sometimes even a competitor, and instantly go work there with little fear of backlash from your current employer? Yes.
Not if you sign a non-complete contract. Otherwise, they can, and probably will, sue your ass until there's nothing left.
If a company lets you go, are you entitled to unemployment compenstation of some sort? Yes.
Not always. If the company makes it look as if you are the cause of your unemployment status, as this guy was because "he let the company security slide, as was found by the vulerability assessment", then you have fewer chances of seeing anything more then the standard 2 weeks. But there's little chance that government U.I. would kick in. Could you survive 3 months with only 2 weeks pay?
Can a company legally tell another company that you don't bathe, you write shitty code and your mother-in-law calls you 17 times a day distracting you at work? No.
A company can legally tell another company of the reason that you were let go. And since this guy was accused of letting network security lapse, that's not going to sound good when another company calls up.
I wouldn't trust anything else coming from this company if I were him. I would try to minimize any contact with this company by future potential employers. He really is in as bad a position as he thinks. What's worse is that probably none of it is deserved. Good luck buddy, because you're going to need it...
Well... Sorta! (Score:4, Informative)
Recourse IS available for those who qualify. I was fired unjustly from a company 15 years ago, believe me I know. I went to the employment board and filed a grievance. In 30 days I had the choice of getting my job back or taking a settlement - I took the settlement.
YOU don't know the full story in this situation either. Maybe a major security breach was found that the author of this article didn't know about. Maybe his company was looking to 'pare down' their IT staff anyway. My point is that in the U.S. shit can and will happen, but I believe the system works itself out. Not perfect, but then neither is a 75% tax rate under socialism.
Re:MOD PARENT UP! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:MOD PARENT UP! (Score:4, Insightful)
Globalization helps YOU by bringing down the cost of goods. Globalization helps THEM by lowering costs. The only people it hurts (ultimately) is the third world country that the actual manufacturing takes place in. Some companies have been known to buy land in these countries, destroy the local economy by buying up farms and razing them, then dropping in a factory. The people work in the factory right away just to survive.
Unions (Score:4, Interesting)
India has much much stronger labour laws than the USA on most issues (although enforcement has problems sometimes). Indian IT workers sometimes do belong to unions or labour groups. Interestingly some of them chose not to use the word "union" because they wanted a labour group but didn't want the conflict the word union implies in some parts of the world, but to imply constructive working together
The jobs that went from the USA and EU have something much more important in common. They are low skilled, highly manpower intensive and not subsidized. It has a lot to do with wage costs and very little to do with unions.
Software is manpower intensive, not subsidized and the skills are being developed rapidly to a high level in other countries. The rest follows logically enough.
Welcome to globalization of production. Unfortunately globalisation of buying is a different matter (eg DVD prices in europe , US text book costs, US v Canadian medicine prices).
Re:Sorry, something doesn't sound right. (Score:4, Funny)
From the second sentence of the story:
Reading between the lines, it seems that a 3rd party vendor labelled him a major security risk. But I'm just guessing.
Re:If the job gets moved... (Score:5, Insightful)
I too was 'downsized, right-sized or outsourced' depending on your point of view. In my situation, I was not offered the opportunity to move with my job as it wasn't 'my job' anymore as it now belonged to a 3rd party (another company in town performing those functions that use to be mine).
Because we were 'audited' and told repeatedly it was non-threating and the new CIO was just getting a *pulse* of who was there and what we did... when we showed up for the wrap-up meeting that was to be an information exchange of what was discovered and what the next move was, we were quite surprised to get our walking papers.
Naturally the audit was nothing more then a 'gather all the information you need to support us going forward' project. The better option, IMHO, would have been to tell us what was going on, I would have been more helpful and forthcoming as the enterprise I helped build/design/deploy had many MANY exceptions to standards and rules because of business need. Several weren't documented and as a result the transistion has been painful for them as they discover these exceptions and scramble to fix them. I think a better question to this topic would be... 'when your considering outsourcing, what is the best way to implement?'.
The "keeping the guys in the dark" approach is bad for PR in the IT community. In my situation, the company was very generous with the severance package and if I had known it was to be offered I would have bent over backwards to help make the transition smooth.
Re:Company names (Score:4, Insightful)