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Software Linux

Linux Localization And E-governance 102

Posted by Hemos from the using-it-in-the-best-way-possible dept.
BhondaiPola writes "The Telegraph has an interesting article about the works of a Bengali Linux localization group. The article speaks of the potential areas in which localization can be implemented, especially, E-governance. Most of the stuff is known to us, but the article should serve as a nice introductory article for anyone new to the issue. And I liked the screenshots of the localized GNOME in the website of the group."
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Linux Localization And E-governance More

Linux Localization And E-governance

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  • I would just like to point out (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 08, 2003 @10:16AM (#7659586)
    "Localized Gnome" would be a really good name for a band.

    ...

    Wait a minute... no it wouldn't.

  • Gnome i18n is great (Score:5, Interesting)

    by leoboiko ( 462141 ) <leoboiko@@@gmail...com> on Monday December 08, 2003 @10:17AM (#7659593) Homepage
    Internationalization was the major reason that made me switch to Gnome.

    Thanks to im-ja [sourceforge.net] I can switch freely between European (Brazilian Portuguese) and Japanese input in any GTK app, something I could do only in Emacs. Gnome-terminal can work with any encoding and switch them at runtime.
    • Asian language IM modules is what GTK is missing. Is there anything in the plans? Getting SCIM or XCIM to work is an extreme headache.

      IM-JA is a good start. How about Chinese?
    • I won't be fully satisfied with Linux until you can take for granted that text in the Linux world can be assumed to be Unicode, and that non-Unicode would be considered the exceptional case -- the opposite of what we have today. It's coming, but very slowly.

      You should be able to use any standard terminal program on any mainstream Linux box to telnet to a Web server and view the source of any Web page, even if the page happens to be a Bengali-Thai dictionary and the Linux box's owner is a monolingual Englis
      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • You make the (very common) mistake of believing Unicode to be an encoding

          I made no such mistake. I simply didn't advocate a specific encoding, or multiple encodings with rules for when to use or how to detect each, because I didn't want to get into that level of detail in this particular piece of advocacy.

          It is sufficient that everyone agree that we work from the same "list of characters" as you rightly call it, and that sufficient standards be in place that it is always unambiguous which characters are

  • Interesting (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 08, 2003 @10:21AM (#7659619)
    Cool, early (first?) post. This raises an interesting question. If a lot of foreign countries start using Linux in their government like this article suggests, will the US follow suit? Answering my own question...probably not. After all, isn't this [redcoat.net] a pretty accurate idea?

  • listing of various localized gnome (Score:3, Interesting)

    by stonebeat.org ( 562495 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @10:23AM (#7659635) Homepage
    I think we should put together a list of localized gnomes. If you know of other gnome localization effort, please reply to this posting with the URL to the project. I will then compile a list. Thanks.

  • pic of computer (Score:3, Interesting)

    by manganese4 ( 726568 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @10:23AM (#7659641)
    I find it interesting that they paired a picture of a 20 year old computer (running Calc 123?) with a story on purported cutting edge use of computers. Most likely an accident but it does highlight linux's ability to perform well just about anywhere.

    • More likely it shows the force of marketing that drives people to buy 2.0GHz+ desktops.

      Theory was that the prices of computers would fall. Nope - you just can't buy 333MHz packages anymore. Instead you get sold something superpowered that you [most of you] don't need for as much or more as you did before.

      I love the free-market. ;)

      • Re:pic of computer (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Minna Kirai ( 624281 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @01:17PM (#7660964)
        Nope - you just can't buy 333MHz packages anymore.

        Blatantly nonfactual [ebay.com].

        Theory was that the prices of computers would fall.

        I don't recall anyone credible espousing such a theory. It's a rather ignorant idea... (Unless you're looking at it from a large enough scale where prices genuinely have fallen, which is the case over a 4+ year measurement)

        It's true that marketing pressure causes people to replace computers unnessecarily. But the idea that "if not for greedy marketers, we'd all be buying new PIII 400mhz computers for $40" is completely unfounded.

        It doesn't really cost all that much less, today, to built a 300mhz CPU than a 3000mhz one. Major R&D improvements were needed so that 3000mhz would even be possible... but now that the money's been spent, there'd be little financial incentive to continue building the slow ones. If some insane vendor wanted to build new 100mhz Pentium computers (from new parts, not leftovers) it would cost nearly as much as a new bargain-basement 1.4Ghz system. There's no meaningful savings from using the weaker stuff.

        Look at the automobile market. A 1993 car is $1000, a 1997 is $5000, and a 2003 is $15000. The old stuff is cheaper... but there is no way a manufacturer could build a new car to 1993 standards for any less than a 2003 model.
        • Look at the automobile market. A 1993 car is $1000, a 1997 is $5000, and a 2003 is $15000. The old stuff is cheaper... but there is no way a manufacturer could build a new car to 1993 standards for any less than a 2003 model.

          No, until a few months ago you could go to Mexico and buy a new VW bug for $2000. This was essentially a 1973 super beatle. Of course, automobiles are a great analogy if all new cars really only cost about $2,000 to make but everyone pays ten times that much due to greedy marketers a

        • Yep - you can still get 333MHz. I meant that you don't see them in the high street shops as full packages, marketed and sold by the reputable chains. E-bay is hardly the mass-market. I'm talking from the POV of the general public. It's a given that those on /. can both obtain computers other than what PC World shove at them and that they know enough to do so.

          Theory was that the prices of computers would fall.

          Well it was my theory actually. 8) I extrapolated it from other markets where as something bec
        • It doesn't really cost all that much less, today, to built a 300mhz CPU than a 3000mhz one.

          Uhm, yeah, but a 300 MHz CPU draws a whole lot less power than a 3 GHz one, so it doesn't need as fancy cooling, it can be made smaller. Also, it's not just the CPU:s that have grown, so have the video adapters etc. A lot of the functionality of a 1997 computer can be probably be integrated into a few chips, making for substantial cost reductions.

  • Just in case it's slashdotted (Score:5, Informative)

    by armando_wall ( 714879 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @10:27AM (#7659676) Homepage

    Here's the article's text:

    Bengali crosses desktop lingo barrier
    ALOKANANDA GHOSH
    Thinking global, going local

    Calcutta, Dec. 7: You can now use the computer to chat, e-mail, browse the internet, access an archive of public domain works by Bengali writers and read the almanac (ponjika) in Bengali.

    In the first successful project of localisation of Indian languages, Ankur, an initiative of a group of academicians, students, professionals, linguists and techies -- all volunteers and without any financial backing -- from India and Bangladesh, will bring Bengali to the desktop, based on Free/Libre Open Source Software (FLOSS).

    A downloadable version of it that can present a basic-level desktop designed to perform functions equivalent to Microsoft Windows, will be posted on the Net tomorrow. The localisation efforts by Ankur will help millions of Bengali-speaking population access computing benefits through low-cost means.

    Localisation is the process by which software and computing systems are adapted to a particular language and the specific cultural habits of a region. However, before the process of localisation can begin, the software has to be internationalised to support multiple languages and local customs.

    "The local language framework makes it easier to take e-governance initiatives to the grassroot levels," Ankur member Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay said. "Government machinery and protocols can be best utilised through the local language and nuances, which can reach the largest number of people. The Ankur Bangla project covers all aspects of localisation. It aims to provide a 'Bengali computing experience', while creating a standard framework and infrastructure which makes computing scalable and economically deployable," he said.

    Defined broadly, e-governance is the use of IT, communications and telecommunications to promote an efficient and effective government, facilitate access to government services, allow greater public access to information and empower people by making the government more accountable to citizens. The project may involve delivering services over the internet, telephone, community centres, wireless devices or other communication systems at reduced cost and increased productivity.

    Ankur has been in talks with the Bengal government for the past six months. The group, however, did not get any projects from the state government.

    "We have been approached by CBSE officials to use the project framework for digitisation of the syllabus to Bengali, using which they will tap the Bangladesh market," Indranil Dasgupta, founder of the Linux User Group in Calcutta, said. "Jadavpur University and the Forum of Scientists, Engineers and Technicians (Foset) are also in the process of adopting the Ankur framework for localised low-cost computers."

    This, despite the fact that the government's much-flaunted government-to-citizen effort - Banglar Mukh (the face of Bengal) - has fallen flat on its face.

    • Re:Just in case it's slashdotted (Score:4, Informative)

      by metlin ( 258108 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @10:37AM (#7659746) Journal
      In case you are wondering, CBSE is Central Board of Secondary Education, India's centralized educational panel that decides things like textbook material, testing standards etc which all affiliated institutions follow.

      Ofcourse, what they have failed to mention is that the Central Board is largely unsympathetic to local langauges and hence each state has its own State Board and/or State Matriculation system.

      Often, a lot of people end up either one or the other. Makes you wonder why they have been approached by CBSE and not their respective state boards.

    • Re:Just in case it's slashdotted (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      s/it's slashdotted/i need spare karma/
    • Out of curiosity: I wonder which percentage of the developers are Bangladeshi citizens, and how many are Kolkata based?

  • FLOSS (Score:4, Funny)

    by jhines ( 82154 ) <john@jhines.org> on Monday December 08, 2003 @10:30AM (#7659698) Homepage
    Free/Libre Open Source Software has a nice ring to it.

    It is an acronym that cuts right down to the gumline.

  • Info on Bengali Language. (Score:5, Informative)

    by frodo from middle ea ( 602941 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @10:31AM (#7659711) Homepage
    It is one of the 13 official languages of India and also official language of bangladesh.

    It is the official language of the Indian State, West Bengal and has produced some great indian poets including Tagore who won a nobel prize for his poems Geetanjali".

  • Localisation, FOSS and developing countries (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Telex4 ( 265980 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @10:33AM (#7659725) Homepage
    What a coincedence, I gave a lecture on FOSS to some CS students this morning, and talked a bit about FOSS in developing countries. One person asked if software is really an issue where there are still large numbers of people living below the poverty line and where access to clean water and a fairly paid job is generally a more important issue than whether or not someone can hack around on a PC.

    But this shows why it is important, if not as important as trade and development issues. Countries like India in particular have nascent computer industries, and growing numbers of users. The more we can do to combat the digital divide and welcome all people in this world onto the Internet and into the logic age, the better. FOSS is key to doing this IMO, and will ensure that as this happens, information technology is controlled by those that use it not those that provide the means to use it.

    • Nascent? (Score:5, Informative)

      by SexyKellyOsbourne ( 606860 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @10:53AM (#7659844) Journal

      I wouldn't call a software economy that's worth roughly $30/billion year, with $10 billion being outsourcing, to be merely "nascent." Unless, of course, you consider that in 2008, the Indian IT Ministry plans to have $50 billion in outsourcing (meaning: your students' jobs, and possibly yours as well) and $90 billion overall.

      Indian Economy Report [eetimes.com]

      Indian IT Plans [apnic.net]

      I'm surprised such Indian localizations weren't done sooner. Perhaps one day, we'll have to navigate them -- at its current growth rate, India will dominate the world in software roughly by the time this year's new CS students graduate.

      • Nascent in the sense that their industries are largely serving foreign customers and a small subsection of Indian society. When they're serving the billion or so Indians, they'll be more established and will be grateful for the opportunities that FOSS is providing them, and that they will take up and provide for others.
        • That is only one side of it, The other being that English is very well rooted in India.<P> ,All the scientific studies are in English, Infact the only subjects you study after highschool in native languages are the languages themselves. And students tend to avoid those subjects too. <P> A Indian student is more career oriented , when it comes to choosing subjects in college, rather than choosing based on interests.<P>That being said, lot of students persue non technical classes like (langu
    • The more we can do to combat the digital divide and welcome all people in this world onto the Internet and into the logic age, the better.

      Why is this necessarily a true statement? Is there perhaps some rational reason that whatever obstacles there are to crossing the digital divide shouldn't actually be crossed until they're capable of being crossed?

      I compare this to the statement "The more we welcome all people in this world into deomocracy, the better." It seems right and reasonable on its surfa
    • One person asked if software is really an issue where there are still large numbers of people living below the poverty line and where access to clean water and a fairly paid job is generally a more important issue than whether or not someone can hack around on a PC.

      Ah! what a thought. First ask yourslef what you do with your PC. When you answer that question honestly, you will understand how digital information is for hackers of all types and you might see how important localization is.

      Clean water, that

  • There goes the neighborhood (Score:3, Funny)

    by segment ( 695309 ) <sil AT politrix DOT org> on Monday December 08, 2003 @10:34AM (#7659734) Homepage Journal
    All I know is, I hope this 'E-Governance' is not using Diebold machinery or based in Florida. S'all I'm saying.

  • Information about Bangladesh (Score:4, Informative)

    by OMG ( 669971 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @10:48AM (#7659800)
    Bengali/Bangla is the language of Bangladesh.

    See the CIA Word Fact Book [cia.gov] for some information about Bangladesh [cia.gov].

    Did you know that Bangladesh is the 8th largest nation on the world [cia.gov] (note: "World" is the first in this ranking) ?

    Bengali is spoken by some Indians as well, India being the second largest nation on the world.
    • Ok, it's the "CIA - WorLd Factbook". MS hasn't bought this institution up to now, AFAIK :-)

    • Although there are quite a few languages in India with small numbers of speakers, the major languages have considerable numbers of speakers. Bengali is one of the largest, with 200 million speakers split between India and Bangladesh. The largest is Hindi, with 180 million first language speakers in India but an estimated 487 million first and second language speakers worldwide. Here are the numbers of first language speakers in India for the other major languages:
      Telugu70 million
      Marathi68 million
      Tamil6

  • People who did this (Score:3, Insightful)

    by pbug ( 728232 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @10:50AM (#7659811) Homepage
    Did it because they can. That is the great thing about open source software. The bottom line is that are in more control of your computing experience (if you access to the skills necessary ) I hope the are able to get their government to take hold of this project and run with it.

  • How much localization is available in Windows? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by overbyj ( 696078 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @10:53AM (#7659843)
    Yes, I know that you can get Windows in the major languagues but I wonder where does MS draw the line. For example, is there a Bengali version of Windows. I am guessing there is but the bigger picture is that Linux with its openness would allow anybody to localize the OS to their languauge. If somebody wanted to, you could make a Klingon or Elvish version of Linux. Why you would want to do that beyond the coolness factor is beyond me but the point is that you are pretty much a slave to MS in terms of localization.

    You speak Xhosa or Bantu or some very minor language in a Third World country, do you think MS will cater to you. Most likely not. Linux can and will cater to you with a little bit of work. One more way to push Linux as a serious alternative to MS in developing countries.

    • Re:How much localization is available in Windows? (Score:5, Informative)

      by jrumney ( 197329 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @11:28AM (#7660107)
      For example, is there a Bengali version of Windows.

      No. As the article stated, this is the first complete localization of a desktop OS to any Indian language. There has not been a lot of pressure on software companies to localize their software for the Indian market, because the common language of communication for middle and upper class Indians across the subcontinent is English. This is fine for business and education users, but for home use of computers to take off in India, they need to be able to write letters to Grandma who only speaks the local languages. This could potentially be a big win for Linux, as the home market which is not yet big enough for Microsoft to bother with could influence choices for business systems in the future.

      • but for home use of computers to take off in India, they need to be able to write letters to Grandma who only speaks the local languages

        This begs the question, can grandma even *read* in Hindi, Bengali or any other language for that matter? What is the literacy rate for the 55+ population in India, anyway?


        • This begs the question, can grandma even *read* in Hindi, Bengali or any other language for that matter? What is the literacy rate for the 55+ population in India, anyway?

          Ooh, literacy!

          For the 55+ population whose child or grandchild can afford a personal computer, literacy (at least in the regional language) should be close to 100 percent
      • Actually, the report was wrong; the first Indianised version of Linux is actually Tamil Linux [tamillinux.org]. In any case, you can use Win XP to type in a few Indic languages, although Bengali is not one of them, and for sure, the UI is still English.

        The number of English speakers, quite frankly, is actually miniscule relatively speaking, even if the absolute numbers are big; the vast majority of India's population would presumably prefer their own vernacular to English to communicate. The biggest detriment to Indianisat

        • The number of English speakers, quite frankly, is actually miniscule relatively speaking

          Which is why I added "middle and upper class" in there. It is a given that Microsoft isn't going to be interested in the other 90% of India's population for whom the cost of a Windows license would be more than a month's salary. But I think there is still a market there, particularly in the education sector as India rapidly becomes more wealthy overall, and as you say, most of those who do speak fluent English would ra

        • In any case, you can use Win XP to type in a few Indic languages, although Bengali is not one of them, and for sure, the UI is still English.
          . This is true. Hmm, slashdot doesn't do unicode?
    • "you could make a Klingon or Elvish version of Linux"

      naDev... tlhIngan Hol ngaq (Klingon language support) [lanana.org]

  • Products Now are Bottom-Up not Top-Down .... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by leoaugust ( 665240 ) <leoaugust AT gmail DOT com> on Monday December 08, 2003 @10:55AM (#7659850) Journal

    Localisation is the process by which software and computing systems are adapted to a particular language and the specific cultural habits of a region. However, before the process of localisation can begin, the software has to be internationalised to support multiple languages and local customs.
    More so than the particular languages, and the multiple languages, what I believe is more important and rather difficult to implement are the elements of specific cultural habits and local customs For this, it truly has to be a bottom-up process. It cannot be imposed from top in a top-down process.
    • As the article says, In the first successful project of localisation of Indian languages, Ankur, an initiative of a group of academicians, students, professionals, linguists and techies - all volunteers and without any financial backing
    • and the fact that the government's much-flaunted government-to-citizen effort - Banglar Mukh (the face of Bengal) - has fallen flat on its face
    • When the product emerged from the grassroots, it rose and stood up, and when it it was imposed from the tree-top it fell flat on its face.
    My question is whether this means that we are doomed to wait for something successful to emerge on its own, rather than being able to drive its creation in well-articulated plans ? For example, I have been wanting to create a community site for a National Olympic Committee (NOC, with about 60 sub organizations who will be the ones contributing material), and also one for a national political party to organize a Poll Information Management System, (PIMS)
    • but I am finding that it is not enough to push a few people with money to select and customize software like slash, scoop, Drupal, Geeklog, PHPNuke or PostNuke, to satisfy the local needs for the NOC or PIMS, and definitely not enough to attact an active community
    • and that maybe the successful programs for the NOC and PIMS have to emerge from not a few people pushed to achieve them but a larger group of people who come together, driven not by money but a bigger sense of purpose ....
    In other words, when it really matters, I find that the profit motive arguemnt of McBride and SCO is not only cynical, it is increasingly not borne out by reality.


  • Has an article on this. Good article exposing the availability of different applications in local languages. It seems that one of the benefits of open source software is it's ability to be modified in this manner. Open Office in Gujarati, anyone?

    The article is online for premium users only. For some reason the Economist wants you to pay for content. I got it in the old-media form; good old paper.

    IMHO, as per.

    J:)

  • Windows (Score:3, Funny)

    by Zog The Undeniable ( 632031 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @11:00AM (#7659877)
    A downloadable version of it that can present a basic-level desktop designed to perform functions equivalent to Microsoft Windows, will be posted on the Net tomorrow.

    So they've made a product that sucks dollar bills from your wallet, DRMs all your tunes and core dumps twice a day?

  • Bengali (Score:4, Informative)

    by sheeny ( 730803 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @11:01AM (#7659885)
    Projects like this are really important. There is no Bengali support in Windows and so we are looking at this to provide Bengali in our environment.

    Kinda like Zulu and Xhosa in South Africa - its not financially viable for Microsoft to write those locales in Windows.

    Just another sign of the goodness in software freedom.

  • Just a thought, but for some right-to-left localizations do they move the start button to the right of the screen with the clock and all that stuff on the left?
    • Yes they do. Pretty much everything is (should be) inverted. The next time you write a GUI application, make sure you consider this. The toolkits has various features that help with this.

      When looking at screenshots of the arabic GNOME desktop is appears that the user interfaces aren't inverted the way they should be. That can probably be attributed to mistakes by the programmer though.

  • Great to see that some eGov initiatives are heading towards Linux. There is some talk at the Dubai e-Gov to move the portal from sun based OS and Hardware to an Intel/Linux setup. As for desktop, MS is the dominant OS and I dont see that changing in the near future
  • Ami obak hoye boshe achi!
  • why the hell did they encrypt the text?
    • It is not encrypted. Thats how bangla text looks like. The first screen shot is a famous poem in Bangla by Jibonando dash , very touchy. It talks about a dying poet's love for his country and his wishes about how his soul is going to return after his death.
  • why choose GNOME to do this? Is there no Bengali support in KDE? I'm just wondering if there was a prevailing reason. On a side note, I like the Totem screen shot in the pictures. Why isn't there a KDE media player based on Xine, dammit?!?

  • Great Hardware! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by tonyr60 ( 32153 ) * on Monday December 08, 2003 @01:56PM (#7661281)
    The picture in the Telegraph article looks suspiciously like an IBM PC XT. Are they a typical workstation in India? If so, I see some problems...

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