Should Hackers Get Their Own Logo? 965
Ridgelift writes "Eric S. Raymond is proposing a new logo for Hackerdom. 'The Linux folks have their penguin and the
BSDers their demon.
Perl's got a camel, FSF
fans have their gnu and OSI's
got an open-source
logo. What we haven't had, historically, is an emblem that
represents the entire hacker community of which all these
groups are parts. This is a proposal that we adopt one - the glider pattern from the Game of Life.'"
I thought they already had one.... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:I thought they already had one.... (Score:5, Informative)
He is referring to the original sense of Hacker.
Read his articles:
How to be a Hacker
A brief history of hackerdom.
I think the logo is a great idea. Yes a lot of people who don't deserve to have the logo will display it, but then that won't change anything from how it is today.
You know what's sad? (Score:5, Insightful)
What makes you think the same won't happen with the logo. I can just see the same steps happening:
1. A couple of script kiddies, who don't even understand what those downloaded rootkits do, start placing the logo on defaced websites and such. Or placing it all over some warez sites, in between porn popups and l33t text.
2. A few retarded and clueless journalists clamp on the "hacking is evil, and this is the logo of these evil people" idea. You know, writing an article about a _real_ hacker won't rake in the readers. It's just a guy working long shifts to make some complicated program. Not many people want to read about that. Whereas doom and gloom journalism about these evil 'hackers', who'll bring our cyber-civilization to its knees, those sell.
3. Your average PHB clamps onto the journalists' definition. It's easier him to understand stuff like "wow, these guys are motivated by evil goals" than "whoa, someone actually likes computers and spends his/her free time learning and experimenting".
So anyway, think about it this way. Would you tell a random client nowadays that you're a hacker, or that you sympathize with hackers? Want to be that they'll instantly understand "cyber-terrorist" by that? You can try to educate them all you want, they'll just fall back to the definition that the media feeds them.
Now take the logo. Do you have any doubt that in a couple of years wearing that logo on a t-shirt will have the same effect? And what do you think will happen after the company loses a few contracts because the client saw you wearing that evil symbol? I can just see it banned at work.
Re:I thought they already had one.... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:I thought they already had one.... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:but we do need a mark for muggs (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm not a hacker either because it's cool or I choose to call myself such. I am one because I am: I write software that "scratches an itch." Whether somebody else considers me a hacker or cool because of it is irrelevant. I couldn't care less.
Somebody who calls themselves a hacker because they think it's cool probably shouldn't be one.
Re:I thought they already had one.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Interesting (Score:5, Interesting)
I figure a lot of people are going to say something along the lines of "to hell with this, we don't ALL need a logo", but IMHO it's just a cool little thing that could easily be embedded (or hidden) in things like logos or programs (being just a 9x9 matrix).
Though I think it would probably be best and easiest represented as pixels rather than circles on a grid.
Re:Interesting (Score:2)
Re:Interesting (Score:2)
Re:Interesting (Score:3, Interesting)
I once submitted a simulation of Conway's Game of Life to a science fair. Didn't win of course, some stupid tidal calculator (read: lookup table) won.
Plus it looks OK as ASCII art on fixed-font displays (but maybe not on Mozilla viewing
Fits perfectly on a three-line sig. If only I had a sig
Re:Interesting (Score:5, Insightful)
.*.
..*
***
(select Code as the post type)
Re:Interesting (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Interesting (Score:5, Funny)
dyslexic hackers UNTIE! (Score:5, Funny)
-+-+-
O|#|#
-+-+-
O|O|O
Re:dyslexic hackers UNTIE! (Score:5, Insightful)
Which makes me wonder why ESS picked that particular direction/orientation. Surely the choice was not politically motivated, since the arrow points to the right (lower-right, yes, but definitely not left as one might expect). Then again, you might say the vertical element sort of leans left, so that would be appropriate.
Seriously, I'm still not sure about the whole logo idea. On one hand, I really don't care -- those that like it should feel free to use it and, in time, it may garner some respect. If not, those who embraced it will be ridiculed for an appropriate length of time and intensity. On the other hand, it sucks because, well, because it's a logo. And a contrived one, specifically chosen to try to be cool, which is, of course, as un-cool as you can get. If a logo for the hacker community just sort of happened accidentally, as the result of some odd, unexpected, unifying event or meme, it might stick. But I think a contrived logo, even with a reference as cool as John Conway built in, is unlikely to catch on.
But, on the bright side, R'ing TFA led me to this funny hacker FAQ [plethora.net] that I hadn't seen before. Very accurate, if a bit too condescending. Regardless, my boss is getting a copy of this right now -- not that he really needs is, but he'll laugh for sure and maybe learn a little.
Re:dyslexic hackers UNTIE! (Score:3, Funny)
Look more closely. It's wearing a little tinfoil hat. :-)
Re:Interesting (Score:3, Interesting)
No, I say I don't particularly want to be associated with ESR's ideas of being a hacker [1accesshost.com] which, as that page shows, amount largely to taking credit for other's work.
Re:Interesting (Score:4, Interesting)
How about 217 then? Nice and easy to remember - like when I chmod something...
Re:Interesting (Score:4, Funny)
Exactly WHAT are you chmoding 217???
Re:Pixels you said? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Pixels you said? (Score:3, Interesting)
photoshop gives me a 2-color gif of only 45 bytes. and this one is 224 bytes inline:
Non-conformists (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's a cup, there's the hoover dam. You'll have better luck.
btw, I think it's more fitting that hackers do not have a logo, personally.
Re:Non-conformists (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Non-conformists (Score:2, Flamebait)
Even anarchists have a logo (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure. Even anarchists have a logo, for god's sake!
Hackers are a rich subculture, and it's been that way for decades. Hackers share common life views, activities, and experiences that are different than the mainstream. So they're distinctive and weird, not unlike peace-activists, republicans, christians, motorcyclists, masons, homosexuals, etc. They've all got their logos that some wear with pride and others choose not to. But if you do choose to fly the flag, at least there's a community understanding of what it means.
One problem I see with a logo though, is that hackers tend to hate posers (since hacking is more about competence than simply attitude). And it's easier to pose with a logo.
Re:Even anarchists have a logo (Score:5, Funny)
Oh. Then I propose a new logo for us incompetent hackers. It's a much more meaningful symbol...
* *
***
* *
The leter H which in the game of life disolves into nothingness after 6 generations. Just like most of my programs.
Re:Even anarchists have a logo (Score:5, Funny)
Not quite appropriate
Re:Incompetent hackers (Score:5, Funny)
I'm putting it im my sig lines and sig files right now, since, well, I'm not just the incompetent hacker club president, I'm also a client.
Creation of logos (Score:3, Insightful)
"It's my job to think of these things."
I can't think of a worse way for a group of people such as hackers usually are to pick a logo. Sure, Anarchists have a symbol, but i doubt it was dreamed up by the self apointed "Anarchist Historian" who ran the idea past a few focus groups before prclaiming it to the community.
What exactly does a penguin have to do wit
Re:Like the totally 1337 peace sign? All your base (Score:5, Informative)
No, this [google.com]. [image search]
how about a secret handshake instead? (Score:2, Interesting)
at all? so we can "recognize each other"? I don't get it. seems creepy.
1) it needs color
2) doesn't need the grid lines, looks too much like tic-tac-toe. keep just the
dots.
3) how can it not be copyrighted or trademarked? if it's really in the public
domain, how can ESR assert that hackers (excuse me, crackers) and
advertisers aren't supposed to use it?
4) does anybody really care what ESR thinks
Re:how about a secret handshake instead? (Score:5, Insightful)
if a logo "needs colour" it wasn't designed well. If you're making a logo for something, first design it in b&w, make sure it look good, then add your colour. That way, the logo will still be effective when photocopied, faxed, or viewed by those with less than perfect colour perception.
Re:how about a secret handshake instead? (Score:5, Insightful)
This rule can be broken and has in fact been broken many times in the past. Before you brake it, you need to know your audience and the channels that you reach them.
Example: Google [google.com]. When you photocopy it, what you get is just the word in a not-very-exciting font (besides colors, the 3D effect and the shadows can vanish too). But since the Google logo will be seen almost exclusively through color monitors, that's no problem.
Bascially, that's the old way of designing logos, like Paul Rand [dlsdesign.com] did it. This school of logo creation also means that a logo can have no direction (think arrows), because it would look strange when you print it on both sides of a truck and it inevitably points backwards on one side.
Anyway, to close my post: There might be rules for logos, but these rules are moving. And Logos that work only in color might be ok today.
Re:how about a secret handshake instead? (Score:4, Funny)
Aah yes, that well known hacker-fleet that drives around :o) Could cover war-drivers I suppose.
Re:how about a secret handshake instead? (Score:3, Interesting)
You mean like this [monash.edu.au] (from a 2001 conference)?
Some ideas just happen spontaneously, I suppose.
Um... (Score:4, Funny)
...but I kinda doubt it.
Re:Um... (Score:3, Funny)
Of this chapter. There are chapters all over the web, and the Sacred Parchment has prophesised that one day a Chosen One will...
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
Re:I'd prefer (Score:2)
Pointing down? (Score:5, Insightful)
The glider should be going up, to symbolize progress.
Re:Pointing down? (Score:2)
Depends how you look at it; also, tiling? (Score:4, Interesting)
Also: If you tiled them (with no extra space, or even with a one-cell margin between, probably), they'd cease to glide. Which brings up a great, though CPU-draining, and possibly annoying, possibility: a huge life-game running as your wallpaper.
hackers, indeed (Score:5, Funny)
<a href='http://www.catb.org/hacker-emblem/'>
<img src='http://www.catb.org/hacker-emblem/glider.png
Note that this isn't valid XHTML.
Re:hackers, indeed (Score:3, Funny)
Note that this isn't valid XHTML.
s/valid/well-formed/
Wannabes and their imprecise language...
While we're at it... (Score:2)
-1, Troll; (Score:5, Insightful)
And then in three months, it'll show up on peoples' resumes. And business cards. And we'll all die a little bit.
Speaking of which, time to update my resume, this may be the key to getting my hyper-1337 job.
Re:-1, Troll; (Score:5, Funny)
Kind of like being able to tell if someone is pretending to have been a Navy SEAL [navyfrogmen.com] because they're talking about/displaying their medals.
Why this one? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why on earth did he pick one that goes DOWN?
Why not pick one that goes up and right?
Crackers should have one that goes DOWN.
Re:Why this one? (Score:5, Funny)
I think it might symbolize a flaccid penis since according to his FAQ, you aren't to think about sex if you are a hacker.
Think about the audience (Score:5, Funny)
Geez, it's not like they're getting girls to do it.
Re:Why this one? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Why this one? (Score:3)
True. I'd be for an upward one, and without the tic-tac-toe raster. Maybe a little more dynamic as well. Maybe a little bit like this [ira.uka.de].
But, in any case, by branding yourself with a single logo you promote stereotypes and generalizations. Which I'm not so sure we'd want. You'd have to fight one hell of a fight to get people to associate the right things with your logo (i.e., with You)... that may work for, say, Nike and the Swoosh (unfortunately), but Hackers just don't have a marketing department. By the ti
Spelling 101 (Score:5, Informative)
That's a daemon for them.
The BSD Daemon [freebsd.org]
Daemon not demon [erenkrantz.com]
Rule 30 (Score:5, Interesting)
Why don't we carve (Score:4, Funny)
No logo (Score:4, Insightful)
Cheers, Dcobbler.
Just for that comment... (Score:5, Funny)
MS Hacker logo (Score:3, Funny)
goatse.cx? (Score:2, Funny)
I'm not sure this really works. (Score:3, Flamebait)
But the BSD logo and the Linux logo are brands, they're symbols for a codebase, not a loosely and contentiously organized group which most people off the street would mistakenly identify as a word for computer criminals. This really doesn't make any sense- what are you branding yourself as? Are you an ESR/hacker? What if by some fluke you just never played life?
Anyway if we are going to give someone the responsiblity of branding an entire MOVEMENT, I'm not sure it should be some gun crazed wack job [lwn.net] that would scare most moms out of the day care center.
Re:I'm not sure this really works. (Score:5, Insightful)
However, this argument neatly sums up why you can't apply a logo to all of hackerdom, I think.
The ultimate argument against the usefulness of such a logo is that you aren't a hacker because you get recognition, you're a hacker because you enjoy hacking. If you're doing it for some other goal, you are a hacker in the sense of one who hacks, but not a hacker in the sense of one who would be most aptly described by 'hacker'.
Looks like the game of Go (Score:2)
Since hackers and go players are an overlapping segment of the population, there is some room for confusion.
Skull and Crossbones... (Score:2, Insightful)
what? (Score:2)
While this is a nice idea for someone to come up with after putting down the hooka...is it a joke?
A logo for hackers? Sure why not, these are the kinds of people just looking to attach themselves to some sort of social structure, because they care so much what other people think of their social standings.
Your kidding, right?
My proposal (Score:2, Funny)
obvious (Score:5, Insightful)
a logo for you. (Score:3, Funny)
I would sugest a cluttery desk with dirty ash trays, lots of empty half crushed soda-pop cans, O'reilly books of various pedigry and colors spewn around the room and book shelves. Pillow hair, coffee cups, the abient glow of a monitor, and half eaten pizza. Combine these things into one logo and it would rule all other logos.
Question/Suggestion (Score:2)
Easy, draw what every hacker has in common. (Score:2)
Re:Easy, draw what every hacker has in common. (Score:3, Funny)
Trace this [club-internet.fr] picture?
validation (Score:2)
<a href='http://www.catb.org/hacker-emblem/'>
<img src='http://www.catb.org/hacker-emblem/glider.png
The astute will notice that the above is not valid XHTML. It should be:
<a href='http://www.catb.org/hacker-emblem/'>
<img src='http://www.catb.org/hacker-emblem/glider.png
Here's my candidate (Score:5, Funny)
Functional, yet stylish. It gives us a connection to those hackers who have gone before us.
(Note to the humor impaired: This is supposed to be funny. Laugh, or at least try to.)
"Hacker" is now a shibboleth (Score:4, Insightful)
The word "hacker" has become a shibboleth. It's a word that seperates people in-the-know from people who are not. Back in biblical times, a town was named "Shibboleth" which non-native people would mispronounce. If a guard or other authority wanted to know if someone was native to the town or a possible outside threat, he would have them pronounce the name of the city. If they could pronounce "Shibboleth" properly, they were in. If they couldn't, they were sent on their way.
Why the history lesson? Because the word "hacker" has gained a lot of baggage and is now a shibboleth. Once used to describe people who were true geeks who wanted to understand how things worked, it now carries the negative connotation of someone who breaks into computers.
I like the word "hacker" because true hackers understand what it means. I also think in that same vein the logo Eric's chosen is a good one, because people "in-the-know" will understand what it means. The fact that I thought the "Game of Life" referred to the Milton-Bradley game shows I still have more to learn. So now I'm reading up on the history of the actual game, which shows my desire to really learn and understand.
Which is what a "hacker" wants to do anyway...
Re:"Hacker" is now a shibboleth (Score:4, Informative)
Um... actually they were dragged away and killed, as usually happens in Bible stories: Judges 12:4-6 [virginia.edu]
Re:"Hacker" is now a shibboleth (Score:4, Funny)
Um... actually they were dragged away and killed, as usually happens in Bible stories: Judges 12:4-6
Right. That's what I said. I just happened to say it in Microsoft-eze.
Life. Don't talk to me about life. (Score:2)
I thought they all were hacker logos? (Score:2)
Those of us who are geeks don't have a problem identifying them.. Sure, if you want to make yourself identifiable to non-hackers, a common logo is a good idea. But why would hackers want that?
I saw a GNU sticker on a stoplight the other day.. for me, it was obvious "There be hackers here!"-message. Naturally it's just a wierd animal-sticker to most people.. but that's kind of the fun, isn't it?
In a word, no (Score:5, Funny)
Hackers don't need nor want a logo. Does ESR really think that most hackers are just dying to put logos on their coffee cups, hats, shirts, etc? If a hacker wants to express himself, he'll do it through hacking.
If we do have a logo, I think it should be a vector rendered shilouete of a fat, unwashed, unshaven hacker sitting in front of a PC.
Raise your Hand if This Fulfills an Inner Need.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Like that's gonna happen. If this does catch on, it will be plastered on every wannabe's website. It will be abused and misapplied, just as the name hacker is treated.
Perhaps hackers are unique, even among themselves? Perhaps a logo does not represent all (or most) hackers? Perhaps claiming to have a logo that represents all hackers (or hackers in general) is presumptuous?
"It's my job to think of these things."
Again, perhaps this is presumptuous? Historians (like say, of American history or what have you) don't tell us what our symbols should be. (Well, if they do no one is listening).
More importantly, hackers do not necessarily need a symbol. Hackers aren't all in the same group and they certainly are not out to advertise themselves and get people to associate an image or idea with them. I would say they probably don't care what the general populous thinks, let alone if they know what a hacker is.
Now how to vote on this? (Score:5, Funny)
How about... (Score:3, Insightful)
It even symbolises some of the humour that hackers are known for.
Worthy of a tattoo? (Score:5, Funny)
Chip H.
This is me being a douche (Score:3, Funny)
You can't be a winner if you've ever played Conway's Game of Life
Yea...I'm pretty much a jerk.
Bah!!! (Score:4, Funny)
Can't say it surprises me though.
A logo? A LOGO? Hey Eric, how about everyone who meets qualifications (do you need to qualify to be an official hacker? ) get team jackets? Oh, oh yeah, and we could all listen to the same hacker music, and play the same hacker games, and and...
Last I remember, any non-derogatory definition of hacker included (or at least implied) a strong sense of independence. Let's all show our independence by wearing a logo!!!
Bah.
Hmmm. (Score:3, Interesting)
I can't really dispute the validity of the glider logo since, even if I never really got into the whole Game Of Life thing (my personal early-hacker obsession was fractals) but I don't really like the logo itself.
I'd go with a design that replaces the circles-in-squares with rectangles, about twice as wide as high and with the "dead" sectors completely empty. Something like this [www.blit.ca].
For black-and-white media, the red squares become whatever the foreground colour is supposed to be and if there are lots of colours available, the brightness of each rectangle could be adjusted to indicate the "aliveness" of that rectangle during some stage of the glider's life cycle.
Not a good emblem (Score:3, Interesting)
Why have an emblem at all? What Eric says about community is true, but hackers recogize each other by their hacks (and posers, by the lack of). Not as easy as a logo, but authenticity is guaranteed.
Why this emblem? A glider isn't appropriate. A glider is "startling and unexpected" for about ten seconds. But nothing new spontaneously emerges from a glider. It just monotonously churns along - no change in speed or direction - until it vanishes over the edge of the screen. Hell, why not use lemmings!? At least *sometimes* they don't jump.
"Social engineering?" "mugs or t-shirts?" 3.Profit! anyone? I don't need a logo - I'm not being marketing. I don't need a "resident historian" - I don't care who used to live here.
Lickable OS X version (Score:3, Interesting)
I put this icon together in some 20 minutes or so. How's it look to you?
Identity (Score:5, Interesting)
I believe also that any true hacker will readily admit ESR's contributions to our community, and possession of the title of "hacker" himself, perhaps I'd even go so far as to call him an "Alpha-hacker".
What's to prevent us from clinging to some logo that we can use to at least superficially identify other people as like-minded. If I'm sitting at a cyber-cafe and see a glider taped to some guy's laptop as he surfs some C, I'm going to recognize that I'm looking at someone who just might be a hacker. This is not a "status symbol" in the real world, in fact most people in the real world will never acknowledge ESR's hacker logo unless someone does something Really Big And Stupid while publically displaying it.
And why not the glider? We're hackers, we all know who JohnConway is, and what fun his Game of Life is. I'm willing to bet half of us have had an infatuation with it at some point or another, and half of that has even written their own little implementation of the thing.
If you don't like the logo, go for the spirit and choose a Up-Left glider, or a Cross (although that might be taken religiously), or you could be really cryptic and slap a 3rd-generation glider on the back of your T-Shirt (a 6th-generation "pump" looks pretty good too).
Sure there will be posers, but as they say, "You will know them by their works". If the code doesn't back up the glider, then just laugh and show them what real "elite" hacking looks like.
Just my 2 cents worth, I like ESR's logo, and will probably be putting a glider of some form on my website in the near future. Just to set myself apart that little bit more.
Here's a stab at it in SVG (Score:3, Insightful)
<!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11.dtd
<svg width="64.0" height="64.0">
<g fill="none" stroke="#808080" stroke-width="1">
<rect x="0.5" y="0.5" width="63" height="63"
<rect x="0.5" y="21.5" width="63" height="21"
<rect x="21.5" y="0.5" width="21" height="63"
</g>
<g fill="#000000">
<circle cx="11" cy="53" r="9"
<circle cx="32" cy="11" r="9"
<circle cx="32" cy="53" r="9"
<circle cx="53" cy="32" r="9"
<circle cx="53" cy="53" r="9"
</g>
</svg>
ESR's jab at free software (Score:3, Insightful)
(We used to call these works ``free software'', but this confused too many people who weren't sure exactly what ``free'' was supposed to mean. Most of us, by at least a 2:1 ratio according to web content analysis, now prefer the term ``open-source'' software).
(*eye's roll*)
Not just NO but "Hell NO!" (Score:4, Insightful)
This is a BAD idea. I have a hard enough time trying to get people to make a mental distinction between "good hackers" and "bad hackers". Cracker doesn't really make it easier and now ESR wants to use what I assume will be a brand-recognizable like logo?
Count me out, brother!
my initial thoughts (Score:3, Funny)
and it looks like circle's winning... ;)
It's Perfect (Score:3, Interesting)
If mine is still a glider, I can say "that's just my style", the way that different programmers can code the same thing and have the source come out completely differently.
Impressive as it is, it requires a whole foundation (a simulator for Conway's Life), just like Linux needs the GNU tools to compile and to be useful. And, just like GNU/Linux, everyone will ignore or disregard ESR's contribution once it becomes popular.
If you put more than one glider, of different orientations, on the same Life domain, they will either interact to do amazing things, ignore each other, or anihilate each other - just like different hacker's code!
And, of course, different hackers will say "the default sucks", and change the orientation, make fancier gliders, etc., which will work for them but not for anyone else, bringing shouts of "diversity if good!" and "why can't everyone just work on the same logo!"
I think ESR might be on to something.
Re:Bleh (Score:2)
Re:Dumb idea.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Dumb idea.. (Score:2)
Sorry that you missed the game of life, but for many of us it represents the first really interesting program we wrote when we were getting started. It was the subject of SA articles for years after its introduction.
Re:Dumb idea.. (Score:2)
Oh well, I guess it's time to find another hobby.
Re:Enough inventing "hacker culture" (Score:3)
I'm not convinced about this. While I may not always agree with ESR, I think he's innocent here. From memory, Aunt Tillie was originally coined by David Woodhouse on LKML. ESR picked it up and ran with it, sure (adding a nephew, Melvin, his girlfriend Penelope, and other characters for no apparently good reason), but he didn't originate the term.
Cute ideas (Score:3, Insightful)