Wind River Announces It Likes Linux After All 218
onecrazyfoo writes "Wind River is going to start supporting Linux in the embedded market. Pretty big news from the largest company in the embedded tools market. What makes it even more interesting is the fact that they have been very anti-Linux and outspoken about it in the past. You can read more about their announcement at LinuxDevices.com." I'm guessing this has come about because of recent changes in the company.
Well well well... (Score:5, Funny)
Somebody direct these guys to the "Supplicants" door. =)
Re:Well well well... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Re:Well well well... (Score:5, Funny)
I had a phone interview with them Back In The Day (2000 or 2001) for a release manager position, and we got to talking about how I'd be a sysadmin and specialized in the area. They asked me what platform I was most comfortable with, and when I mentioned Linux I got a rather haughty answer (along the lines of "Well, what *real* platforms?").
Anyhow, you're right. And that's the beauty of the GPL -- it lets people change their minds when it becomes clear they can't fight the future. Still, you gotta admit, it'd be satisfying to make these folks grovel a little bit...
Re:Well well well... (Score:5, Interesting)
Can't fight the future, or did Linux finally reach maturity? There's a big difference between fighting it kicking and screaming and simply not being able to use it because there's things it wasn't able to do.
Don't assume that everybody who avoids Linux is an idiot.
Re:Well well well... (Score:3, Interesting)
Given their attitude and the fact that this was relatively recently, I'd say "fighting it kicking and screaming" is a much better representation than "waiting for functionality".
And I would argue that anyone who does not see the *potential* of Linux, both in terms of technology development and the b
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Not necessarily. There are a lot of people out there who feel that there are highly overlooked weaknesses of Linux. Now, I don't hate Linux. I don't 'not see the potential' in Linux. But I do think that it's overrated in many ways. I also don't think that Microsoft will sit still and let Linux be better than them as a desktop OS. There's no reason why ot
Re:Well well well... (Score:3, Informative)
So essentially you follow Microserf's discussion rule #1: Reduce all computing to desktops.
So you want to ignore embedded
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Pardon me for narrowing the scope down to a scant tens of millions of machines. I'm such a slimeball.
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
McDonalds sells more hamburgers in a day than Microsoft sells Windows licenses in a year.
Hamburgers are about as important to embedding computers as your game-bootloader. So does that make McDonalds ontopic here? Does McDonalds rule embedded systems because they sell more hamburgers than Linux?
But I even responded to your extreme off-topic comment. That was the part you didn't dare to comment on, you preferred to start a me
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Like what?
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
On-board computers in..
cars.
Microwave ovens.
Washing machines.
Refridgermerators
Cameras - digital, video, what-have-you
Stereo equipment
DVD players
Televisions
Insensitive Beowulf clusters of Soviet Russian overlord sigs (maybe not)
Scientific equipment - what a catch-all this is!
Surveying equipment
Measuring equipment
Sound-engineering equipment
anything else with a microcontroller.
hell, any one of those probably outnumber desktop PCs by 100 to 1.
Here's some free advice: quit while you
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Right. I took a moment to listen to what you had to say, but you gotta twist it like that. Yeah, I need to take time for a serious look in the mirror. Never mind that I had avenues to keep the argument going.
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
That's because you are.
"See, those are the words of a self-confident, yet totally WRONG poster. "
My point was valid. And, as mentioned before, I could have kept it going. Instead, I took the opportunity to be informed. You should have picked up that hint that I wasn't arguing just for the sake of being right.
" Ya got flamed, ya got what you deserved and now you just want to cry to mommy about it. Boo-hoo. "
Whatever. Takes two to tango.
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
So you guys chose to limit the scope to what Linux does well, and completely avoid the market where Windows is king. Never mind that Linux has had not one, but 2 good user friendly OS's to copy off of all this time. Gee. And NG was accused of narrowing the scope in a 'Microserf' kind of way.
Admit it, you a
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
If they're soOOOo complex, then how come Linux hasn't been able to approach Windows in the desktop arena?
"As for MS not pursuing embedded systems very hard, you just haven't been paying attention, WinCE went from a joke to a scary serious contender in like 3 years.
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
That's right, keep dodging it.
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Nah, not desperate for attention. Just find it amusing. What abouut you, though? At least I have email notification. You, though, have to keep reloading until I respond. Who's desperate for attention here?
"My part has always been about calling you on your self-righteous little tantrum. That's all."
Tantrum? Heh. Whatever. Call it a tantrum if you like, I just pointed out tha
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Not sure if you caught my other post to numbnuts, but I've basically reached the conclusion he's just trying to get to me because I got modded up for the "Linux is just now becoming mature" post. Keep arguing with him about the embedded stuff, it's funny. He's totally clueless. He read an article somewhere and thinks he knows it all now.
ICQ me when he responds. He's quite obsessive about repying. Guess he's desperate to troll.
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Oh, my ICQ doesn't work btw. That's why I didn't message you last night. I'll boot back into Windows tonight. I can't believe those idiots think so highly of Linux, it's a fight just to get anything to work!
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
You can't get ICQ to work in Linux? heh. I think I'll wait a little while before I try to switch again. Big surprise only a few people use it. Oh wait! I forgot! Everybody with a microwave has Linux! Well, in light of that, it should be an awesome desktop OS! YOU are the problem! Heheh
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Ha!
I'm off. I'll be back home in about 3 hours. Promised the GF dinner. Cheers man.
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Heh! Is that the best you got? "Take that, email boy!"
Didn't bother reading past that. If that's the best you can do, I doubt the rest of your message is very insightful.
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
"Wanna talk about how WinCE is only for PDAs some more?"
What's the matta? Don't want to talk about my topic?
"Or how about you not even knowing what priority-inversion is?"
Well, we could talk about how your highest priority is to insult me, but the result is the opposite. Instead, I'm smiling. I suppose if we wanted to talk in metaphors about what a priority inversion is, we could discuss your behaviour thus far.
"In this thread, all you are qualified for is
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
heheh he's trying pitifully hard over in his thread with me as well. Poor guy has an obsession with felching. He's the first guy I ever talked to that was into that.
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
And...?
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Heh.
"I'm so clever, I made you.. well sort of
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
"Crap! My karma has gone down from excellent to
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Psst. That isn't true. It's a strong possibility that it will be in 2-3 years, though.
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
The studios you've named are not the entire 3D world. If you were a little more informed on this topic, you'd know that 3D Studio MAX and Lightwave both hold a very significant chunk of the 3D market, yet they do not run on Linux.
Movie FX is not the entire 3D industry, not even close.
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
All he said was that Linux has some overlooked weaknesses. It does in alot of area's.
First off MS funded the mindcraft fiasco a few years ago showing NT beating the crap out of Linux. Another big fud war similiar to the SCO one today. Anyway after looking at the issues the kernel was enhanced and improved. Especially 2.6 and database programs and raw i/o which Linux lacked at the time.
I think its good to discuss weaknesses. Some like the abo
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
There are two solutions, if you don't use either it's probably because you go to admin-targetted websites like FreshRPMs.net and use server-oriented distros, instead of using a user-oriented distro like Xandros, Mandrake, or even Redhat with Ximian(?)...
The solution is to bundle everything you may need, similar to the way Windows programs would
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Fits my style more.
But that is not perfect either. Not for grandma, that is for sure. Windows in my opinion is.
I believe their is a conspiracy theory onto why distro's have rpm and dependancy hell. They want you to keep upgrading and upgrading. I spent at least $1400 buying versions of Redhat, SuSE, and Mandrake over the years since 98.
The problem is only the distro's are thouroughly tested. Gentoo is not recommend for anyone who does not have alot of time on their hands.
Fre
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Re:Well well well... (Score:2, Insightful)
Sure, and don't you see the *potential* in FreeBSD? In fact, it's been technically superior in a number of ways for a while. Only with Linux 2.6 is Linux really getting an edge over FreeBSD.
"What I mean here are the folks who, despite the staggering amount of evidence and press to the contrary, still think of Linux and OSS software as some sort of quaint am
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
I'll be very impressed if BSD can do the same thing you were trying to do w
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Upgrading to the 2.6 kernel is different because it uses a different module and devfs system. It supposed to be backwards compatible but you need to upgrade your modutilities. I did this but Redhat put some of the files for their older version of modutils in the wrong place. This caused a conflict and since my USB keyboard uses the mod I could not fix it.
"I'll be very impressed if BSD can do the same thing you were trying to do with Linux "
Need to upgrade FreeBSD? cvsup
People playing Russian roulette with Tux (Score:3, Insightful)
Red Hat provides that. It's their distribution. If you yank out parts and something doesn't work...it's not a huge surprise. The equivalent to BSD 4.x is Debian stable or RH 7.x (which is what most people see to use for production servers running RH, due to strong maturity). Just because Linus has tagged something as "2.6-pre-foo" doesn't mean that you have a tested, complete system. That means that *he* is getting close to the poi
Re:Well well well... (Score:3, Insightful)
It's the easiest language ever.
-9mm-
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
5.0x looks certainly better but its no Java or
Re:Well well well... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Though you are right, I wouldn't call it the 'only thing' as if they only have one more problem to solve. It's akin to saying "doctors only need to cure disease."
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Almost all the cases I know of where folks have decided against Linux in embedded space have been not because it's immature or insufficiently functional, but because it's too damn big.
(One of the up-and-coming OSes I think has a very strong chance of becoming a strong competitor in embedded
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Yeah, well, that plus there hasn't been a scheduler that was capable of meeting common real-time requirements. Lots of claims, lots of "Linux on top of something else" hacks that cause more hybrid-environment pain than they're worth, but no native Linux scheduler you could really use for any but the very softest of soft real-time. That lack has been more keenly felt on many projects than the absence of a few "ma
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
It's a whole different ballgame than the sort of software being used for tiny hard realtime systems.
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
That's like saying it's OK to lie, because it's someone else's responsibility to find the truth. Yes, people should understand the technology before they waste money on it, but vendors and Linux advocates also shouldn't be spreading misinformation.
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Jon
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Linux reached maturity (= is used in real production environments) a long time ago. And it dominates the embedded market for quite some time already.
Don't assume that everybody who avoids Linux is an idiot.
In the embedded market? Are you kidding?
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Well if you want to limit yourself to such a narrow band, then okay. Windows XP is the best OS in the entire world for 78 year old grannies to use.
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
Damn, OSX won't install on my 78 year old granny's machine.
Re:Well well well... (Score:2)
If they evaluate it and it doesn't meet their needs, or doesn't run on their hardware as well as the default OS, or they just don't like the default system font, they're free to choose not to run it. To dismiss it out of hand though, because of the association of RMS, or Communism, or "free-can't-be'good" is a stupid move which, pretty much by definition would make them an idiot.
I actually lost a job opp
Wow (Score:4, Funny)
For those who don't RTFA.... (Score:3, Informative)
No wonder (Score:3, Funny)
Click here to get Instant Root [67.37.26.119]
Re:No wonder (Score:2, Funny)
Re:No wonder (Score:2)
echo "/./sbin/init 6" >/etc/rc.d/rc3.d/S01reboot;init 6
and now the file is missing...(after it rebooted and I logged back on)
Just out of curiosity, wtf are you doing?
Pfft (Score:5, Interesting)
It's just another company trying to jump on the Linux bandwagon. Nothing to see here folks
Re:Pfft (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Pfft (Score:2)
better developer tools (Score:4, Insightful)
This [redhat.com] is not enough.
Woo Hoo! (Score:4, Funny)
We should *not* consider this a good thing... (Score:5, Interesting)
Exercising great restraint to avoid writing anything they would likely sue me for (such as a factual tale of my experience dealing with them for over two years), I would just like to point out that we should not, in any way, consider this "good" news.
Aside from their "quality" tools (the fixing of which I can thank for giving me a reason to learn Tcl), expect to hear about a GPL violation within a few weeks. And if they handle that accusation like they handle their customers' bug reports, well, good ol' Darl may start sounding fairly reasonable to deal with.
Re:We should *not* consider this a good thing... (Score:4, Interesting)
You too, huh?
I guess every VxWorks shop gets to have this lovely learning experience.
---
Dum de dum.
Re:We should *not* consider this a good thing... (Score:2)
Well at least some good came of it.
FreeBSD (Score:4, Funny)
Formerly with FreeBSD Wind river? (Score:4, Interesting)
If so, how could this be _bad_ for linux in any way shape or form? Even if you don't like the company, linux-heads should wake up and realize, any company that's investing in linux and open source is GOOD, look how far FreeBSD has come from 386/BSD and FreeBSD 2.x
Re:Formerly with FreeBSD Wind river? (Score:5, Insightful)
Short version, no.
Longer version: When BSDi fell on hard times around 4/2001, it was sold to Wind River. Many FreeBSD developers made the move. Shortly thereafter many major FreeBSD developers bailed to Apple. The vibe from the higher-ups was that BSD/OS was the "real" product at Wind River.
Wind River are leeches. Don't expect them to contribute much, if anything.
Re:Formerly with FreeBSD Wind river? (Score:2, Insightful)
It isn't like they wrote the manual for GDB or contributed significantly towards C++ support in GCC. Oh wait, they did.
Re:Formerly with FreeBSD Wind river? (Score:2)
All Wind River did was acquire BSDi (for BSD/OS) and Walnut Creek CDROM (which was silly because that company just redistributed FreeBSD CDs). I don't think Wind River released anything back to the BSD community. BSDi did donate some SMP code from BSD/OS to FreeBSD 5.0, but I don't think Wind River had anything to do with that.
They're not the first in this market... (Score:3, Insightful)
And speaking of -- there are plenty of companies which have been in the embedded Linux market longer than Wind River, and have much more Linux-friendly engineering staffs. MontaVista is one of these, Lineo another... wouldn't it make sense for your embedded Linux business to go to a company that's been focused around Linux from the start rather than just for the last few months?
but, host tools? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:but, host tools? (Score:3, Interesting)
The project that I'm working on now, was previously done on Solaris, but the Solaris machines (Ultra 5's) are starting to show their age.
I'd love to be able to build under Linux. One thing that I have thought of doing is getting the gcc source from WindRiver for the version of Tornado that I'm using, and build my own MIPS cross-compiler/binutils for Linux (I don't really need the GUI, since we use a Makefile that's not geneated from the
Re:but, host tools? (Score:2)
It is possible to build under linux using a cross-compiler and some .h files from the NT or Sun versions. I've done it and it works.
See SNS [ornl.gov] or the tech-talk thread [anl.gov]
Re:but, host tools? (Score:2)
My only main concern is that we use a custom MIPS variant, that these patches alone may not cover. We'll see though.
-- Joe
Re:but, host tools? (Score:2)
and also develop for linux [ghs.com]
Yes, I work for GHS. They didn't tell me to do this. I'm just out astroturfing of my own volition.
Re:but, host tools? (Score:3, Interesting)
We got sidetracked and the build stagnated and we never did that final 20%. It would have been so easy with just one person doing it full time.
Going the way of Sun? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Going the way of Sun? (Score:4, Insightful)
Neither Sun nor Wind River were keen to embrace Linux in the past. Perhaps their change of heart is a sign that they see no other choice. It would not be surprising that they regret a decision they feel they were forced into.
Peter
Re:Going the way of Sun? (Score:2)
Bzzt. Incorrect. Sun is no more a hardware vendor than Apple. Sun's product is its version of UNIX, which it wraps in specialized hardware so that it can control the platform. This is why Sun tried to drop support for i386-family processors last year: it recognized that this commoditized its product.
First, Embrace Linux, then... (Score:3, Informative)
I don't think of course that they could truly extinguish Linux, but I'm sure they could make some proprietory tools or what not that would make it harder on the competition. I'd in fact expect that this is a pre-emptive strike on their competition, which has probably been gaining on their Tornado tools and WindRiver OS. I even won't put it past them to try to put a few competitors out of business, then start pushing existing embedded Linux users over to their proprietary OS.
Slackware? (Score:2)
Anyone for a game of monopoly? (Score:2)
" On Thursday, the company announced its first move to support embedded Linux, a version of the open-source operating system that has been tailored to work with small devices such as cell phones, personal digital assistants, medical equipment and a variety of other applications."
Really? A Whole Version?
Anti-Linux stance? (Score:5, Interesting)
I didn't see any kind of "Linux is no good" message coming from WRS. Maybe I missed some clueless sales-drone speeches?
The people you see making the pro-linux statements today: especially Fiddler, were making similar noises around the time I left, back in 1999. The attitude hasn't fundamentally changed, they just tried other avenues and they didn't work.
WRS has long had an idiology that the runtime is not the important piece, but that the tools are where the major development value is. This stems from the origin of the company as a tools provider for VRTX. As a result, they've supported multiple runtimes over the course of the company, at times runtimes provided by alternate vendors. Thus, the Linux thing isn't new.
What might be new is that the general open source movement is providing more and more sophisticated developer tools for free, such that their custom-packaging of GCC and gui project manager/debugger/etc aren't worth the boatload of cash they're used to charging for it.
Oh well... (Score:2)
At least this is a bit of vindication from the guy who used to wander the halls with the linux shirt.
Not surprised (Score:4, Informative)
They also changed there strategy and there "crown jewels". The vxworks source code suddenly became cheaper.
However there is a lot more to embedded development than just buying a package and putting it on. The things vxworks does do well is it provide a very configurable hardware layer which makes moving to new hardware relatively easy. Also some of there visulation tools such as windview are very good(Oh I wish there was something similar for windows) which allows you to sort out bottle necks.
However you do pay through the nose for this (and there new licensing model has made it very expensive) and for cheap targets it is just not economic.
Re:toaster (Score:2, Funny)
Do you need to run an SMP kernel on the 4 slot toaster?
Re:toaster (Score:2, Funny)
Re:toaster (Score:2, Funny)
Re:toaster (Score:2, Funny)
stefan@creator:~$ eject
eject: unable to eject, last error: bread failed
stefan@creator:~$
Re:toaster (Score:2)
Re:toaster (Score:2)
Re:What are good Embedded Linux Systems? (Score:2, Informative)
Peter
Re:2 1/2 years (Score:2)
Re:Errmmm... (Score:2)
(Waddle waddle)