Ernie Ball - Model For Open-Source Transition? 869
fr0z writes "
Ernie Ball is a company that makes guitar strings. After being raided by the BSA in 2000 without warning and fined $100,000 for a few unlicensed copies of software, CEO Sterling Ball vowed not to give another cent to Microsoft and within 6 months, according to CNET News, had the whole company switched to Red Hat Linux, OpenOffice.org, Mozilla, and other free software."
Oh, the irony of it.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Oh, the irony of it.... (Score:5, Interesting)
On a more serious side: The BSA is good motivation for people to quit the Microsoft Endless_Upgrade suite of software. Most (people/companies) will use whatever works, until it doesn't work. When you are fined $100K, it doesn't seem to be working very well. All a person needs is one good reason...
Re:Oh, the irony of it.... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Oh, the irony of it.... (Score:4, Funny)
If you wish to add an NT 4 Workstation computer to your network of NT4 machines I'm sure you'd have no problem buying the appropriate license and making sure the hardware had drivers.
Re:Oh, the irony of it.... (Score:4, Interesting)
1: I have five computers. A sixth person joins my company so I buy them a new computer to use.
2: I have five computers. One of them breaks and needs to be replaced.
In both cases they'll need the same OS as the other machines even if they have newer physical hardware.
Re:Oh, the irony of it.... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Oh, the irony of it.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Oh, the irony of it.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, you do, if you want to stay interoperable with the newer version that other people use and the data format or protocol changes as well (as it does wherever Microsoft has control over it). Or if you need enterprise-level support and Microsoft end-of-lifecycles your version.
Re:Oh, the irony of it.... (Score:5, Insightful)
You threw that in pretty casually without really explaining what you meant by it. Does this mean that there are options that the creator of a document can use that will break this back compatability? If they do use these features, does this mean that the only option for a recipient is to buy an Office upgrade?
I really don't know the answer to these questions, so if there is a simple answer I'd love to know it.
Re:Oh, the irony of it.... (Score:5, Interesting)
What about the rest of the Office "family"? Both Access [microsoft.com]. and Project [microsoft.com] have changed file formats. Sure you can downgrade when you save your files as previous versions, but you lose many of the features that are available in the newer version -- essentially crippling your software.
Why did you spend $500 [pricebustersoftware.com] for crippled software again?
The last, most compelling reason why you must upgrade is that when your copy of office hits the End-of-Life (c)(r)(tm) stage [microsoft.com], then you can kiss support, PATCHES and tools goodbye. Hope you didn't need a security patch for your software, 'cause it is EOL'd. Sucker.
Re:Oh, the irony of it.... (Score:4, Insightful)
I was not aware of this. Is it possible to provide more detail. I am a heavy OOo user, and write plenty of macros for it. I was not aware of such a case. I would find it interesting to know how to produce a file in 1.1RCx that 1.0.x cannot open.
Re:Oh, the irony of it.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Site licenses are only valid for up to 2 revisions behind, I think. In addition, it is ILLEGAL to ghost a PC for which you only have an OEM license. Therefore, if you replace a machine, you cannot make it part of your standard network, because you can't get a license for it!
Then, if there's a major security problem (or other bug), you can't get support for it.
So, although they technically don't require you to upgrade, the practical fact is you must.
More raids please (Score:5, Funny)
Re:More raids please (Score:5, Funny)
Re:More raids please (Score:5, Interesting)
His company should consider starting up a subsidiary that switches business over to free software. He's got the expertise, he should leverage it.
Re:More raids please (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:More raids please (Score:5, Interesting)
The best part of the article, though, is here:
The other thing is that if you look at productivity. If you put a bunch of stuff on people's desktops they don't need to do their job, chances are they're going to use it. I don't have that problem. If all you need is word processing, that's all you're going to have on your desktop, a word processor. It's not going to have Paint or PowerPoint. I tell you what, our hits to eBay went down greatly when not everybody had a Web browser. For somebody whose job is filling out forms all day, invoicing and exporting, why do they need a Web browser? The idea that if you have 2,000 terminals they all have to have a Web browser, that's crazy. It just creates distractions.
Remember this next time someone does a TCO study. Betcha they don't count the actual productivity of the users as part of TCO.
Re:More raids please (Score:5, Funny)
because otherwise they will go insane with boredom, you insensitive clod!
Re:More raids please (Score:5, Insightful)
because otherwise they will go insane with boredom, you insensitive clod!
Umm... what did people do before there were web browsers at work? Oh, yeah, they did THEIR JOB. The fact that some managers have decided that they want their employees to, in fact, work, shouldn't be considered bad.
(Of course, I'm thankfull that my boss isn't one of these, as I'm posting this from work)
Re:More raids please (Score:5, Insightful)
Last time we measured, 70% of the downtime on our network was related to the employees installing other software, or downloading stupid crap, like viruses. It is a work computer, your boss doesn't owe you the ability to scan ebay while you are being paid to do work. By doing so, you cost the company money. Obviously, this doesn't bother you, but then again, you don't own the company.
I take every station that doesn't need internet access OFF, so they won't browse the net for the same reason. Its not my job to provide intertainment for you while you are on your break. If you worked in construction, would you expect the foreman to provide a computer on the internet so you could browse Ebay while you were on break? Then why would you expect this from an office job?
The problem is you expect your boss to entertain you for 7 hours a day, so you can get your 1 hour of work done. Please don't apply for a job where I work.
Re:More raids please (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:More raids please (Score:5, Funny)
Re:More raids please (Score:4, Insightful)
He gets to make things and all I get is the internet.
Yea, I get paid more as a programmer than he does as a janitor but that's not my point. The point is, you don't need a computer with a web browser in front of you to goof off at work. I've never worked in construction but I'm sure they have their own way of goofing off, whether it's just standing around talking or practicing their aim with a nail gun.
Employee Morale (Score:5, Insightful)
If you are concerned about overuse, filter sites employees use or bytes transferred or access hours. There all sorts of ways to manage internet access without cutting it out all together.
The internet, like anything else, can be abused and overused while at work. Milly the office clerk can blow the whole day talking on the phone, regardless of whether or not you turn her internet on or off. The bottom line is that goofing off at work was occuring long before the internet was even a twinkle in some engineers eye (while daydreaming at his regular job no doubt). It's a fact of business life, and its well known.
Your post suggests that you are of the "employee is the enemy" managerial mindset. Its bad for the morale of your employees and also their productivity. If they are able to complete their assigned work in the time allotted, what is the problem?
"Please don't apply for a job where I work."
I don't think I will have a problem with that directive.
Don't use the computer for relaxation! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:More raids please (Score:5, Insightful)
The end reasons for the swith:
- It's so funny--in three and half years, we went from being these idiots that were thinking emotionally rather than businesslike...to now we're smart and talking to tech guys.
- I know I saved $80,000 right away by going to open source, and each time something like (Windows) XP comes along, I save even more money because I don't have to buy new equipment to run the software. One of the great things is that we're able to run a poor man's thin client by using old computers we weren't using before because it couldn't handle Windows 2000. They work fine with the software we have now.
- One of the analysts said it costs $1,250 per person to change over to open source. It wasn't anywhere near that for us. I'm reluctant to give actual numbers. I can give any number I want to support my position, and so can the other guy. But I'll tell you, I'm not paying any per-seat license. I'm not buying any new computers. When we need something, we have white box systems we put together ourselves. It doesn't need to be much of a system for most of what we do.
- What about the cost of dealing with a virus? We don't have 'em.
- How about when we do have a problem, you don't have to send some guy to a corner of the building to find out what's going on--he never leaves his desk, because everything's server-based.
- If all you need is word processing, that's all you're going to have on your desktop, a word processor. It's not going to have Paint or PowerPoint. I tell you what, our hits to eBay went down greatly when not everybody had a Web browser. For somebody whose job is filling out forms all day, invoicing and exporting, why do they need a Web browser? The idea that if you have 2,000 terminals they all have to have a Web browser, that's crazy. It just creates distractions.
- Look, when you've got Windows 98 not being supported, NT not being supported, OS/2 not being supported--if you're a decision maker in the IT field, you need to be able to look at Linux as something that's going to continue to be supported. It's a major consideration when you're making those decisions.
- Microsoft and some analysts will tell you about all the support calls and service problems. That's hysterical. Have they worked in my office? I can find out how many calls my guys have made to Red Hat, but I'm pretty sure the answer is none or close to it...It just doesn't crash as much as Windows. And I don't have to buy new computers every time they come out with a new release and abandon the old one.
- I'm definitely money ahead now and I'm definitely just as productive, and I don't have any problems communicating with my customers. So thank you, Microsoft.
He's using a thin client setup, limiting his employees applications to increase productivity, lowering his downtime, and decreasing his support and hardware budgets. I'd say those are good enough reasons.Re:More raids please (Score:4, Insightful)
and the funny part... This fact scares the absolute Shite out of every MCSE and Microsoft loving PHB.
as they know that such a change means' they no longer have a job.
After the last round of RPC bullcrap the company I work for has came to be with tons of questions about migration away from microsoft.
It's only a matter of time before upper managers start seeing the real savings in hardware and licenses will easily offset the increased cost of actually hiring skilled IT staff.... and stories like these only remind them.
Re:More raids please (Score:4, Informative)
Maybe citrix but not terminal server. I know lots of sysadmins that have tried terminal server and they all abandoned it eventually. One IT manager told me "I am in terminal server a good part of my day and when I get off I am so happy". Terminal servers can't really support more then ten or so clients at a time and the client software plays weird tricks with modal windows and dialog boxes.
"Side note: he'd still be dealing with MS, which I understand is his prime motivation."
It seems like it was his primary motivation.
"For example, if there is a server failure - hardware or software - everyone (or whoever is running terminal sessions from that box) is down."
These days almost everybody is on a LAN. If the fileserver or the database server is down then everybody grinds to a halt anyway. You don't incur any additional risk by putting them on thin clients. It's also easy enough to have load balancing and failover set for the servers.
"For example, a minor mistake in admining that server will reverberate throughout the entire office. "
See above. If the DBA has to bring down the database server then everybody has to stop unless of course there is failover.
"'For example, maintenance cannot easily be done incrementally throughout the day, but rather, must now be done off hours lest it affect the entire office."
Most people I know have a development server. They do all the development server and then roll out the changes to the production machine. Depending on your application you can usually do this live with Unix. In Unix there are no file lock problems and you also have some very powerfull tools like rsync/rdist that allow you to roll out changes with ease. Just to give you an example I once did a make world, make kernel on a freebsd machine while people were logged in and using it. That night I brought the machine down to single user and did an install world and install kernel and brought the machine back up. The make world took a long time but it did not stop the users, the install world took about five minutes so it was not a big deal.
"There are good and bad sides to thin-client computing. He gave only the good ones. Just an FYI."
Unix was designed from the ground up to be a thin client environment while thin client computing is a kludge on top of windows. You really can't compare the two because they are vastly different.
Re:More raids please (Score:5, Informative)
RTFA. They didn't pirate software. They (apparently) didn't even use the violating software instances. It was older machines given to new people without properly wiping the harddrive. That's the problem with many software licensing systems, you can suddenly be in violation without knowing it. Perhaps these problems would go away if we all switched to a software ownership model, like just about all other products people buy, instead of a licensing model.
Re:More raids please (Score:5, Insightful)
Nope, unfortunately avoiding software piracy doesn't really help to avoid the BSA, especially given they can audit you at the request of a disgruntled employee (avoid gruntling your employees!
Ugh...anyway, if my facts are wrong, let me know, but that is how I understand things to go.
Re:What BSA Raids accomplish (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What BSA Raids accomplish (Score:4, Insightful)
RAIDED!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Hey, I knew we went overboard with the Patriot act, but when did the BSA (Boyscouts of America) start doing raids?!?
Re:RAIDED!!! (Score:5, Interesting)
A friend of mine got "raided" once. In Holland, they
do this by saying that they will charge them with a crime. If the victim doesn't happen to know that the BSA is a commercial organisation and therefore doesn't have that power, the victim will let them in and they will gather evidence which will then be used in a civilian lawsuit. If you don't let them in, nothing happens, because they know that the public prosecutor is not going to bother with these cases and they don't have any other way to force you to reveal the incriminating information.
That's sweet but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyways - my axe wil be enjoying openSource crafted strings from now
Re:That's sweet but... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:That's sweet but... (Score:5, Interesting)
I found his answer to the question (paraphrased) "did you find everything you needed from open source?" was a good point; that most OSS is developer-centric. Check out SourceForge for the number of PHP content management systems, for example. Yikes, what's an OSS advocate to do...
On the other hand, where I work (UK public sector) is desperately short of money, composed of lots of small organisations who can hire one or two developers each at most, and yet very tight-knit - there are partnerships going on all the time. One of the things we're after is records management - document management on stereoids, if you like. Unfortunately, there's no OSS equivalent for me to recommend to others in the partnership.
Are content management systems all that exciting to code? I dunno (and I've written one)..but I think the OSS world needs to branch out into other markets beyond the "let's fork another HTTP server and put Linux on an iPod" type of project - surely the only way to reduce Microsoft's ubiquity is to be a ubiquitous alternative yourself? How about some OSS records management, workflow, online forms, asset management, planning applications, licensing apps?
PS: If anyone knows of such OSS projects, advice gratefully accepted... :-)
Re:That's sweet but... (Score:5, Interesting)
The real power of OSS is that you get to build on the wants and needs of everyone else - you can be (you are welcome to assist too) a free loader if everything you need is already done. If not you can ignore OSS because the package(s) you need are not sitting out there (and turn around and pay for closed source packages) or you choose - either on your own or in concert with other people of similar needs to develop the base. In the long run, I believe virtually all general purpose software will have powerful OSS choices available as will most niche software, but this will take time - and first adopters will out of necessity contribute more so their own needs are met. Eventually more stories like this one by bigger and bigger companies will develop.
I am still waiting for a huge company (e.g. General Motors) that has clout to pull its suppliers along with it to make a long term commitment - the cost to a really big company when they do decide to upgrade their platforms (say from Win98 to WinXP) is enourmous - and the software cost is only a small part of that - at some point they will add it up and realize that they already have 99% of the support infrastructure in place they can save millions of dollars a year (which can fund internal or external development of they applications and customization that they require) and gives them long term control of an integral part of their business that they currently give to Microsoft.
I'm switching (Score:5, Funny)
I wanna support these guys and I'd feel pretty silly just buying strings.
Alan.
Re:I'm switching (Score:5, Interesting)
So... (Score:5, Interesting)
2. Switch to Linux et al.
3. Profit.
Other companies have likely done similar but it's the publicity that counts more than anything - an actual success story with Linux from a company with clout should turn a few heards in the direction of open source.
I own an abacus :) (Score:5, Funny)
I bet Abacus Inc is pretty pissed at the Red Hat right now. That's one big contract to miss out on.
Oh come on (Score:5, Interesting)
If is true that if you have to pay the legal expenses of the BSA while they prosecute you, then it is time for a flood of feeble "In Soviet America" jokes. Perhaps someone who is a lawyer could explain the situation?
Re:Oh come on (Score:5, Interesting)
I recently worked for a large british corporation (recognizable if you read news!) as a technical consultant. I was working on a project, and I need to write documentation for the customers, and with it some pretty tedious diagramming. And I asked my boss to purchase a copy of Visio and she was like, what the fuck are you talking about? No question about spending money on software. Here, take this copy of Visio2000, the S/N is in there. I asked where did she get the copy from, well, it was from one of her friends, who copied from her company's CD, which is copied from another employee's friend CD. And who knows that CD orginally came from. And that's not the only piece of softwares required in that project we didn't buy: we didn't buy Sybase, we didn't buy JBuilder, and we didn't buy Merant JDBC driver either (coz two DBs, sybase & ms sql, must be supported), and we didn't pay for MS SQL either. Oh, did I tell you WinXP on that laptop has no valid license too coz someone insisted that we upgraded to WinXP from Win2K? I proposed to do the project with Emacs + Ant + JDK, and no need of JBuilder, and the boss insisted on JBuilder, coz it looks "professional" (she couldn't even read a single line of code!). You might think it's just my boss who is too cheap, but as far as I know, other people in other groups do that too.
And that's not the only company I know which did that.
And we were professionals (as in software professionals) and we were supposed to know better (or at least, know the license better). And that's what we did. Now imagine the guy who is not in the software industry.
I'm not saying that as an excuse, as I'm not proud of that. I tried to get valid software licenses, but when you got shot down everytime (even by the boss's boss, and higher), and you have everyone's breadth on your neck about that project, you do the god damn thing. Good thing I'm out of there fast.
But as far as I know, I never heard of the big guys (think HP, IBM, GE, P&G etc) got raided. Why is that?
Re:Oh come on (Score:4, Funny)
They got it too, but it wasn't the kind they were hoping for.
We've done this in the UK several times... (Score:5, Interesting)
Our best known (in the UK at least) case study is here [siriusit.co.uk].
In fact the Group consider Open Source to not merely be a 'substitute' for Microsoft Software, but to have delivered far more real, measurable business benefit than they ever received as a Microsoft Shop.
I am glad Ernie Ball are receiving this great press for their *complete* migration, but they are by no means the first (or the last!) decent-sized enterprise to have done this.
Re:We've done this in the UK several times... (Score:4, Interesting)
Whilst it's true that the majority of the desktops are Windows, KG Group have now replaced large numbers with GNU/Linux and MacosX in the places that make the most sense.
The main thrust of the desktop takeover has been the apps. IE and Outlook have long since been replaced with Mozilla. Openoffice is spreading fast, and we are currently migrating access-based databases to LAMP! At this stage the underlying desktop becomes irrelevant and GNU/Linux for everyone becomes easy.
Don't.... (Score:5, Funny)
Fantastic Open Source Advertising Opportunity (Score:5, Interesting)
Mr. Ball sounds like a practical businessman, he sounds passionate and as if he enjoys what he does. I wonder if he would be receptive to a business proposition in which he would be featured in commercial advertisements and perhaps provide more precise figures about what it costs him (as he said that analysts are too pessimistic).
As more people like Mr. Ball speak out, the open source community is gaining more people who understand business and can convince other businesses. This man understands that free software can still cost money, and he has the personal experience and business acumen to be able to boil things down to the most important, concise points. He mentiones several important points in his interview, and probably has tons more knowledge that would be useful to making open source a better business solution, and making open source profitable.
It might not be such a bad idea for companies and individuals who are considering funding open source projects to listen to such people when considering project goals. And it would not be so difficult for free software organizations to initiate commerical projects including creating advertisements and articles based on solid, no-nonsense business cases for open source featuring real-world successes like Ernie Ball.
Re:Fantastic Open Source Advertising Opportunity (Score:3, Interesting)
You and I are already convinced. Business people don't think in the terms we do, nor do they see why they should. If GNU/Linux and OSS are to achieve the position we all know they should we are going to have to learn to talk this talk.
Re:Fantastic Open Source Advertising Opportunity (Score:4, Interesting)
For example it sounds like we need better accounting software. There is a place where someone could do some useful work. (With luck someone who knows something about accounting)
Actually (Score:5, Insightful)
Most businesses being small businesses or starting out as small businesses' aren't that savvy about IP law. Or the DCMA. In the end the market will react either by the software vendors backing off, the law changing, or people doing what this guy did and choosing alternatives.
Show me proof of ownership for your toilet. Bet you can't!
Re:Actually (Score:5, Funny)
Will a hard dump of its contents do?
he owes his business to Microsoft (Score:5, Interesting)
But I've got to tell you, I couldn't have built my business without Microsoft, so I thank them. Now that I'm not so bitter, I'm glad I'm in the position I'm in. They made that possible, and I thank them.
I'll take that to mean that when he needed the software that Open Source wasn't around yet. But I wonder if we'll see that quote used by Microsoft anyway.
DT
Most Interesting quote (Score:5, Insightful)
Listen to him guys, he's a CEO.
Now I'm going to take those Fenders off, thay don't twang like they used to, and get me some Ernie Balls.
Amen! (Score:5, Interesting)
This is the argument I always get into when my friends ask me why I don't use Linux or BSD or whatever. There is not enough non-server software out there. GIMP is pretty much the only raster graphics package out there, Win32 has Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, Corel Photo Paint, Fireworks, Painter, etc. I can chose between Illustrator, Freehand and Corel Draw for vector graphics. Combustion, Avid, Premiere, After Effects, etc. It's all good and fine that I can write a letter, do my taxes and the like on a *nix machine, but I need to actually work now and then and the applications *still* aren't there.
Re:Amen! (Score:5, Informative)
just from my perspective working in a viusalFX studio...all the real technical apps. are moving over to Linux. Check out CinePaint, it is a much better "paint" type program photoshop supporting high bit depths etc. Shake, Maya, XSI they all run on Linux (better on linux infact). While I do agree with you somewhat i think alot of the more common desktop design apps are going to be taken care of ala WINE. it seems that Linux is really starting to creep into the design/FX community pretty quickly.
Good for them! (Score:5, Interesting)
As a geek, Ernie's story is pretty cool, and I am happy to say I support the company financially as well by buying their strings.
Hidden costs (Score:5, Insightful)
Isn't it standard practice to include potential scenarios like this in business plans, weighted with the probability of it occuring?
Most Important Statement in the Interview (Score:5, Interesting)
Developers need to get paid (Score:4, Insightful)
If you want us to write accounting software, pay us to do so. It is not something we are going to do for fun.
Reaction to BSA/MS bullying (Score:5, Insightful)
Even if in the IT biz we've accustomed to accepting very very ugly tactics if they're even remotely legally justifiable, it doesn't mean all businesses will want to have anything to do with corporations that employ such if there are alternatives.
Sometimes I wonder when stuff like 'the customer is always right' and such disappeared from the software industry. Well, not all of it. Shops doing custom stuff usually still treat their clients with some respect, at least way better than the large ones with a forcefed product portfolio do. But overall the software biz is starting to resemble some sort of drug pushing operation:
"you know you need our product",
"oh, that was yesterdays price, it's just doubled",
"should you consider not conforming, you can expect a visit from a couple of our friends".
Re:Reaction to BSA/MS bullying (Score:5, Insightful)
I never cease to find it amazing that hard-nosed business people accept such lousy service/performance/reliability/cost/you-name-it in this area of their businesses.
It is as if critical analysis goes out of the door where IT is concerned. The vast majority of businesses have simply fallen for the lie^Hne that "you never got fired for buying Microsoft software"
The business case for OSS adoption has become the theme for a monthly column I am writing for the UK magazine LinuxUser & Developer. I passionately believe that not only is OSS frequently the best technical solution to an IT problem (something I guess most of us here believe), it is also often the best *business* solution to a business problem.
Now I'm confused (Score:5, Interesting)
In Germany where I live only the district attorney can issue such warrants and only the police or federal agencies may search buildings using that warrant. The person(s) who made the allegations may not even be present during the search.
And since shrink-wrap licences are (still) illegal in germany the BSA would not even get the district attorney to issue such a warrant since only common contractual law applies to software purchases.
So they can go to my office but I don't have to let them in.
Giving some pressure group federal powers seems a bit odd to me.
Re:Now I'm confused (Score:5, Interesting)
He's right... (Score:5, Insightful)
He's still ahead (Score:5, Insightful)
Gan we get a Slashdot Interview here? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Gan we get a Slashdot Interview here? (Score:4, Interesting)
And a straight answer to the ole TCO question ... (Score:5, Insightful)
- I'm not making calls to Red Hat; I don't need to. I think that's propaganda...What about the cost of dealing with a virus? We don't have 'em. How about when we do have a problem, you don't have to send some guy to a corner of the building to find out what's going on--he never leaves his desk, because everything's server-based. There's no doubt that what I'm doing is cheaper to operate. The analyst guys can say whatever they want.
Hurrah! Someone finally cut through all the bullshit, and basically said it straight. Take that you buzzword speaking analyst! Begone back to the hellish dimension that spawned you!I am going to buy Ernie Ball strings from now on. (Score:5, Funny)
Libre software (Score:4, Insightful)
Thanks to Congress,... (Score:4, Interesting)
Did you want to settle?
Never, never. That's the difference between the way an employee and an owner thinks. They attacked my family's name and came into my community and made us look bad. There was never an instance of me wanting to give in. I would have loved to have fought it. But when (the BSA) went to Congress to get their powers, part of what they got is that I automatically have to pay their legal fees from day one. That's why nobody's ever challenged them--they can't afford it. My attorney said it was going to cost our side a quarter million dollars to fight them, and since you're paying their side, too, figure at least half a million. It's not worth it. You pay the fine and get on with your business. What most people do is get terrified and pay their license and continue to pay their licenses. And they do that no matter what the license program turns into.
Question is, even if you win, do you still have to pay the BSA lawyers?
Nail your boss? (Score:4, Interesting)
Still, unless you have a prosecutor willing to prosecute a crime, (a *CRIME*, not a civil matter), and unless you have a magistrate willing to hear the case, there should never be a search warrant issued for anything!
I hear about "BSA" raids, but they are really government raids with the BSA acting as a witness for the prosecution. The prosecutor is never named in these articles. Neither is the judge who signed the order.
Doh! (Score:5, Funny)
So what did swearing off Microsoft entail? We looked at all the alternatives. We looked at Apple, but that's owned in part by Microsoft. (Editor's note: Microsoft invested $150 million in Apple in 1997.)
Somewhere, a man wearing a black turtleneck is going, "Doh!"
So how do I earn a living? (Score:5, Interesting)
My biggest reservation about open and free software is that it's not obvious how I would make a living if the whole world switched. Programming is my most marketable skill* and has kept me employed for many years. I know Stallman says that we could make money supporting free software and filling in the holes, but I've always been skeptical of the demand. Ernie Ball seems to support my concern.
* My other career option is writing. That doesn't pay the bills, and, if we totally kill rather than fix copyright laws, it'll never pay.
Re:well he couldv'e seen it coming (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:well he couldv'e seen it coming (Score:5, Insightful)
From the interview it sounds like they were trying to play by the rules, ok maybe their audits where not as good as they should be, but lets be honest most folks have better things to do then audit software once a month.
Re:well he couldv'e seen it coming (Score:5, Informative)
Did you actually read the whole article? His version of the facts is that the BSA complained (among other things, maybe) about unused software that had not been properly deleted from some hard drives when after moving a PC from a department to another. In total, he had something like 8 percent of non-licensed software. And anyway, he said that his main problem was not the about paying for the software, but in the way the BSA raided his company.
Re:well he couldv'e seen it coming (Score:5, Insightful)
But you know what... it happens. It's live. We aren't robots. We tie our shoe laces, try and stay on the side walks and we sign agreements to say, "If we get overpaid, or udner, the company can rectify that w/ the bank directly, w/o us."
There are people who live dangerously, stealing stuff left and right, making a killing and never get caught. This is a case of someone unconsciously making a mistake (misteak, mmmm) and accidentally having one too many copies installed.
If YOU never break the law, kudos to you. I commend you. Hell, run for president. But the rest of us don't mind having judges to weed out the guilty from the innocent. And that same group understands, those same people are fallible. It's why we have a multi layered court system.
The rest of us are human and expected to be treated as such.
TYVM.
Re:well he couldv'e seen it coming (Score:4, Interesting)
Keeping track of software licenses and so on is a real pain in the neck. So-much-so, MS will sell you tools to help you do it. Isn't that nice of them?
I like the way he's (Ball) looked on this though. PCs and their software are just tools. Does it matter what it is, as long as it does the job cheaply and effeciently? How many people have I asked what version of Windows/Office they have on their PC and receive the reply "Microsoft"? Far too many. Companies buy Microsoft because that's what you buy. Same way people only bought IBM PCs because nobody ever got fired for buying IBM.
Just wait, it'll all change.
Re:well he couldv'e seen it coming (Score:5, Insightful)
The ratio of the least amount of people to cause trouble, vs the amount of damage caused, just for illegal softare installed is WAY too high and too fast to accrue.
BTW, It's called due process and due dilligence. You TRY to do your best, even when you fail. Or would you rather your first speeding ticket, your first petty crime, your first major crime, be taken out to the fullest conviction, or would you rather the judge understand, "Wait, it was a mistake (if it can be proven as such) or this person usually, 99% of the time, does the right thing. A slap on the wrist makes more sense."
Or maybe you are one of those who has enough cash, that if you do make a mistake, you can just blow it off. I'm sorry buddy, most of us don't.
And you know what, companies don't have to buy MS 'cause you don't have to. OO, Linux, Java, Tomcat, Struts, Apache, GnuCash, Pan, Evolution.. they are all viable. And you know what... just 'cuz some people do get fired for using opensource doesn't mean I won't. If anything, when time rolls around, and the proof is in the pudding, people will see. Not that OSS is right for everyone, but it isn't wrong.
Re:little clarification (Score:5, Insightful)
That's absolutely correct.
I have a business myself and I tell all my staff "don't use unlicenced software" and they do exactly as I say. And I say, "If you buy software, remember to put the licence and CD-ROM in the software cupboard", and that's what everyone does. And I say "if you buy a computer or recieve a second hand computer, make sure you have all the licences". And do you know, all my staff do that too. Dealing with staff is easy. You just tell them what to do, and they always do it, to the letter, and never forget, and everything is always neat and tidy and wonderfully efficient.
[/end of sarcasm]
I trust you don't actually run your own business with lots of staff?
Re:little clarification (Score:4, Informative)
At my last job, I did corporate information security for several years for a large ISP.
We had specific policy regarding everything to do with software and just about everyone infringed at some point.
For example, Playing games at work == termination. At any given time, I could dump an interface on a firewall at any of our offices and see Quake3 or Counter-strike games being played. The people who 'could not be behind the proxy or nat due to their job function' would often try and set up game servers.
This sort of thing seems to be rampant in technical businesses. A large percentage of technical types feel that they are smart, the exception, or somehow immune to company policy. Combine this with a slacker attitude and you have some problems. What they don't understand, there is a whole world of people playing catchup to the American technical market. Soon enough, they'll have all our jobs. My last position was eliminated when they announced 3000 of our call center employees and three offices were shutting down due to their spiffy new contract with a support company in India.
Anyway, back to the software licence issues. For organizations like the BSA, any sizable office is an easy target, as unless the IT group comes across as 'network nazis', software policy will be ignored by most.
I once worked at a smaller firm who would make employees pay out of pocket for any licence infractions they caused. One guy got stuck with the option of finding a new job or pay for the company's costs surrounding an unlicenced suite of Adobe products. I think it cost him around $3k. He paid it, then got canned a few months later for going on a week-long coke binge. He forgot to schedule some vacation time for it.
Re:little clarification (Score:3, Interesting)
How do you know it works if you've not been audited by the BSA? If these companies were audited, are you sure the BSA wouldn't find any unlicenced software? Tom in engineering wouldn't have given his computer to Berol in accounts when he got a new one and forgotten to wipe all the software off the hard disc, would he?
Re:little clarification (Score:5, Insightful)
In 10 years, we might be saying that the BSA was the worst thing that ever happened to Microsoft and the primary reason that Linux attained desktop market dominance in the corporate world.
Hey a man can dream can't he?
Re:little clarification (Score:5, Insightful)
You're right, and Mr. Ball wasn't disputing the fact that he wasn't in compliance. He was complaining about the way he was treated--armed marshalls knocking on the door and lots of negative publicity pushed by the BSA.
Nobody's arguing the fact that a license is a license, no matter how unfair it is. But as a business-to-business relationship, it would have been MUCH more beneficial for Microsoft to have first approached Ernie Ball outlining the problem and allowing them to correct it before showing up at their door with a warrant and pasting the raid all over the news. And that's all he's saying.
Re:well he couldv'e seen it coming (Score:3, Insightful)
He ditched MS because they tried to make an example out of him, not because they tried to collect thier pound of flesh.
Re:Thats like... (Score:3, Insightful)
The only reasonable way such a company can ensure full licenses is to pay MS's outrageous "protection money". I forget what they call it, something like "software assurance". When the BSA comes in, you are guilty until proven innocent. Most companies
Re:Let me get this straight... (Score:5, Insightful)
He wasn't objecting to being nonconformant, license-wise. He is objecting to the manner in which he was treated as a customer. He objected to the very heavy-handed way they treated it, and to the way they decided to hang him out publicly as an example. He also objects to the steep fines imposed (without any court sanction), and the way the law in practice makes it impossible for smaller businesses to contest the BSA assertions in court.
Re:Let me get this straight... (Score:4, Insightful)
Good grief, settle down. That's not a good analogy for this case. In this case, it's as if your kid tries to carry a pack of gum out of the store along with your $100 of groceries you just bought, and they fine you $5000 and put your picture up in the lobby to make an example out of you and your beligerent child.
There didn't appear to be any intent to pirate in the Ball case, but the BSA was looking for an example for cheap press. They got the press they deserved.
Re:Let me get this straight... (Score:3, Insightful)
But no, they wanted to make an example of him and so they did. Its just now its an example of how to get away from that world.
J.
Re:Let me get this straight... (Score:5, Insightful)
He got caught because in the process of running a business, he decided not to devote absolutely ridiculuous amounts of time to wiping the harddrives of unused PCs.
And before you accuse the guy of whining, note that he paid his fine, in addition to the presumably hundreds of thousands of legitimate licensing fees that he'd already paid to BSA members.
Now he's doing precisely what a smart businessman should do: recognize that the cost of policing for such tiny violations (and the potential fines that can result) is much higher than the software is worth. He's taking his business elsewhere. And good for him.
laziness and big fines (Score:5, Insightful)
They were not intending to defraud, just poor computer administration led to some accidental license violations.
The offensive part is they didn't give an opportunity to clean up the mess when it was pointed out by deleting the unused software, or buying the software. They didn't work with him to develop a system to track this, or even give a nice little FAQ to help him out.
Instead of working with their customer, they settled for $100,000, for 6 infringing computers? $17k per computer in fines and penalties. That's ridiculous, all the software is a fraction of that cost.
When a person makes a mistake, it is reasonable to point it out and suggest that more care should be taken to avoid this in the future. Expecting them to pay for any damage they caused is also reasonable.
Re:Let me get this straight... (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact is, if you read the article, that he was most upset by how he was treated by the BSA and Microfoft. Which I am guessing you have never had the pleasure of sitting through, either.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Uh (Score:5, Insightful)
a) They weren't using it (but it was unintentionally left installed on the wrong machines.)
and
b) He was willing to make restitution, providing MS had offered him a voluntary audit and a fair price on the 5 machines that were infringing.
He washed his hands of MS because they wanted to make an example out of him. That's a bad way to treat a customer, and he bailed on them.
Re:I'd feel bad for them... (Score:3, Insightful)
If software is on your PC but you never use it, is it being used illegally?
Re:old, old, OLD story (Score:5, Informative)
Re:He didn't do enough research... (Score:5, Insightful)