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Linux Software

Linux Gaining Ground In India 280

Posted by simoniker from the more-bang-for-your-buck dept.
GillBates0 writes "Yahoo/Reuters is reporting that Linux seems to be gaining over Microsoft in India. According to Red Hat, about 10 percent of India's personal computers will be sold with Linux rather than Microsoft operating systems by March, 2004, up from nothing in January. Linux already drives India's National Stock Exchange, and the Government of India has been promoting open source lately."
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Linux Gaining Ground In India

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  • gaining ground (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:09PM (#6668761)
    oh please don't use the term "gaining ground". India already has border skirmishes with packistan; losing territory to a penguin is not something they'll appreciate!
    • Linux has significantly less appeal in India than Linux has in the United States of America. The rate of software piracy in India is about 70%. In otherwords, 70% of all software in India is stolen. So, Windows 2000/XP is essentially free.

      The primary appeal of Linux is low cost: $0.00. with Windows being free in India, the typical Indian will not be interested in using Linux. Windows has significantly more applications that run on it than Linux. Off course, those applications are also "free".

      Sim

      • It's nothing to do with money, it's more about control and freedom.

        Many countries have become sick of waiting for Microsoft to translate software into their language, with open source one clever person can do it. One example of the freedom of open source.
      • I think this is what makes it all the more interesting. When you take away the most often used reason for using Linux (price), people are still using it. That says something about it's usability and support.

  • Bye Bye, domestic workforce (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TrippTDF ( 513419 ) <hiland@g m a i l.com> on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:10PM (#6668770)
    This is interesting, especially with all the IT outsourcing to India that we have seen lately. Could mean for yet cheaper outsourcing costs here in the US- if people start using Red Hat at home, maybe they will want to use it at work.
    • That's interesting, because when I was working for Amazon.com, it was a known fact that they had a tech outsourcing in India just so they could fire those people instead of the people working in the American customer service centers when mistakes were made.

    • Re:Bye Bye, domestic workforce (Score:5, Insightful)

      by IFF123 ( 679162 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:21PM (#6668892)
      It's the current craze of cutting costs (whether they are human-based or not) that's the driving force behind all of the latest market strategies.

      That people are switching to Linux doesn't make them automatically good. The software will become cheaper and cheaper, and so will we.
      (IAAP)

    • Re:Bye Bye, domestic workforce (Score:5, Insightful)

      by devphaeton ( 695736 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:27PM (#6668943)
      As much as i do have issues with outsourcing labour to other countries (at the cost of jobs in the U.S.)...

      We've got to remember that OpenSource Operating Systems (and other software) such as GNU/Linux, the *BSDs, and whathaveyou....

      Are in the public domain. By the entire world, for the entire world.

      We can't get mad at other countries if they and thier governments embrace it. We can only get mad at the U.S. gov't and those who refuse to even take a look.

      • Re:Bye Bye, domestic workforce (Score:5, Informative)

        by deander2 ( 26173 ) * <public@[ ]ed.org ['ker' in gap]> on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:50PM (#6669179) Homepage
        actually, they're not in the public domain. they're covered and protected by international copyright laws. that's what prevents anyone from using it if they don't agree with the GPL.

        don't confuse freely available for public domain. linux very much relies on copyright law.

      • Re:Bye Bye, domestic workforce (Score:5, Informative)

        by RealAlaskan ( 576404 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @04:01PM (#6669276) Homepage Journal
        We've got to remember that OpenSource Operating Systems (and other software) such as GNU/Linux, the *BSDs, and whathaveyou.... Are in the public domain.

        No. They're copyright their various authors. It is that copyright which enables those authors to place the programs under the BSD|GPL|some other licence. CMUCL [cons.org] is an example of a program in the public domain [public-domain.org]: it ISN'T licenced.

        I think your point could have been that ideas are free to all, or not free at all. Good point.

    • As a person living in India for the greater part pf 6 months in a year:
      a)Number of people that I know who use Linux (other than myself) : 0
      b)Number of companies that I know who use Linux : 0; who use Solaris : 2 (but these are both networking companies.
      c)Percentage of people who have and use a windows box as their primary machine : ~100% - not too many Mac users here... :P
      d)Percentage of people who have a legal copy of Windows - ~20%
      e)Percentage of people who use legal software : ~10%

      In India, Windows IS f

  • good for india (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:11PM (#6668780)
    let them spend the next 20 years trying to configure their linux config files.

    the rest of us can then get our jobs back.

  • Linux fits well with India (Score:5, Funny)

    by typical geek ( 261980 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:11PM (#6668785) Homepage
    You can have a unique distro for each of their animal headed, multi-armed gods.

  • New developers! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by te amo ( 690205 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:11PM (#6668790)
    With so many Indians in the software industry already, maybe we will start seeing some more great open source software come from India.

    • Uh-uh (Score:4, Insightful)

      by melted ( 227442 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:20PM (#6668884) Homepage
      They have one small disadvantage - they barely make a living there. And when you don't have enough money to feed your family the last thing you'd do is work for free so that some american (or german) company sells your software for profit. Open Source works when it's subsidized by your salary (or time stolen from your employer). If your salary doesn't leave much room for subsidizing anything - you go somewhere and find an evening job.

      • Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)

        by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:51PM (#6669182)
        Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • Middle class, USA-style, or middle class India-style?

          (The difference being one is a touch more third-world than the US)

          And no, I haven't been there. Thus the question.

          • Re:Ever been there? (Score:5, Informative)

            by swillden ( 191260 ) * <shawn-ds@willden.org> on Monday August 11, 2003 @04:28PM (#6669577) Journal

            Middle class, USA-style, or middle class India-style? (The difference being one is a touch more third-world than the US)

            This question is completely irrelevant. If the Indians in question consider themselves to be comfortable and happy with their income, some of them will be able and willing to devote their free time to writing software for fun. Their actual standard of living doesn't matter; as long as they think it's good enough that they can afford leisure time, they'll take it. And if they're geek-inclined, that leisure will sometimes take the form of hacking code to give away.

            Besides which, I'm sure you'd find if you visited that the Indian middle class is pretty comfortable by American standards as well. Smaller homes, maybe, perhaps one car instead of two, and maybe a few less gadgets, but they're far from starving, or having to work 16 hours a day seven days a week.

      • Re:Uh-uh (Score:5, Insightful)

        by iworm ( 132527 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:57PM (#6669235)
        Here we have the typical, well-meaning but actually very ignorant, stereotype of Indians living in abject poverty, with no food...

        Get informed: India is a huge country with a vast population. They cover the spectrum: sure, there are PLENTY of very poor Indians, but there are also loads of well-educated, well-paid, (by local standards) dare-one-say "happy" Indians.

        Please don't make generalisations, particularly when they are wrong...!
        • But there IS a reason that waiting lists for immigration to America, among other countries, are filled with people from India.

    • Re:New developers! (Score:4, Insightful)

      by glockenspieler ( 692846 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:30PM (#6668982)
      With so many Indians in the software industry already, maybe we will start seeing some more great open source software come from India.

      I think that this is absolutely correct. Often there are comments about how multiple projects can result in a dilution of the efforts of developers. For example, the earlier discussion about Gnome/KDE often had such a comment about how having these two different desktops is inefficient because X number of developers are now split among two different projects.

      What will be really interesting is to watch the kinds of new projects that start showing up in places like sourceforge that reflect this growing interest.

      While many people have concerns about the broader implications of developments in India and China (e.g., downward pressure on salaries), from the perspective of the communal effort that is open source development, more (vastly more!) eyes could have an incredible influence on the quality and rate of development.

    • Re:New developers! (Score:3, Informative)

      by tcopeland ( 32225 ) *
      The Asia Open Source Center [asiaosc.org] has news, polls, and such-like for that very topic.

  • support calls will be local number..... (Score:3, Funny)

    by mike_scheck ( 512662 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:13PM (#6668810)
    Well, at least all the new linux users in india will have a local number to call for support. The WIPRO guys won't have to speak english either, its a win/win situation.

  • Open source hosting in India.... (Score:5, Informative)

    by tcopeland ( 32225 ) * <tom@NoSPaM.thomasleecopeland.com> on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:14PM (#6668822) Homepage

    ...can be found here [sarovar.org].

    Yet another GForge [gforge.org] installation!

  • Send them opium bring back money (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mnmn ( 145599 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:15PM (#6668825) Homepage
    Microsoft has such a strong monopoly in the west, breaking ground is hard enough here. So the easy solution seems to be just hook the Chinese and Indians onto Linux and the enormous software base that will result will put Microsoft at a severe disadvantage. It doesnt help either than the average cost of Windows XP is a month's salary of the average person with a computer there. Microsoft can use huge discounts, but they cannot beat the 100% discount Linux/BSD offers.

    • Microsoft gains market share in developing countries, simply by looking the other way when it comes to piracy, until they feel they have been lulled into dependency. Then they unleash the hounds.
    • Actuall, the GNP per capita in USD is only $380 in India. The data [worldbank.org] is a bit outdated, but things haven't changed much in 6 years. And since the Full Version of Windows XP is $299, that only leaves a family with $81 for food for the rest of the year...Oh, and the computer too...
      • I estimated that from my own experience in Pakistan. A small fraction of the population can afford the computer, and I assure you, they cannot afford Microsoft tax.

      • Re:Send them opium bring back money (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Rinikusu ( 28164 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @04:13PM (#6669425)
        DId you notice, according to the article, that out of a country with a billion people, that there are only *8 million* computers (personal?) in India? And as for "cost", let's be real. My Indian friend brought back a CD he got in Bombay that he paid about $1.47 US dollars for. It contained the entire Adobe Suite. He said the same for just about any software you could name, you rarely paid over $5 on the street. No one pays for software in India. No one. What's amazing to me is that even with the availability of "free" Windows, people are still choosing Linux.

        • BSA (Score:2)

          by dmaxwell ( 43234 )
          The big proprietary vendors have been leaning on governments lately to enforce copyrights. How is your small to medium sized business going to pay for those licenses when the Indian equivalent of the BSA raids you? For that matter, suppose a few of those Bombay CD vendors got chucked in the pokey or least hit with huge fines. That $1.47 situation could change in a hurry if the right politicians over there were properly motivated.

          Maybe passing up the "free" Windows is a smarter choice than it looks.

  • call centres (Score:3, Informative)

    by Ugodown ( 665450 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:15PM (#6668831) Homepage
    Almost all of the UK's tech support call centres are located in India because it costs less. Since call centres require so many PCs, I wouldn't be suprised that they don't want to pay high MS prices for OSs. Linux to the rescue, especially for a somewhat poor country.

  • Didja know...? (Score:4, Funny)

    by PSaltyDS ( 467134 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:17PM (#6668851) Journal
    I have it on authority [thesimpsons.com] that Apu uses a Linux-based register at the Kwik-E-Mart! I can't remember if he uses SuSe, or if that was the name of one of his kids...
  • Makes me wish I had relatives in Bangalore...

  • Major market needed (Score:3, Insightful)

    by maroberts ( 15852 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:18PM (#6668861) Homepage Journal
    Linux actually needs to win soon in one of the populous developing countries (I include China in this category); it would've been nice to be China, but I'm under the impression Microsoft doesn't stop copies of it's operating system quite so hard there as it would here.

    India would be good, especially since a lot of IT is done over there; with a bit of luck it will lead to another huge influx of Linux developers who speak English
  • It's the logical thing to do. They have to cut costs since they are now loosing all their jobs to the Russians.

    Anti SCO T-Shirt [anti-tshirts.com]. $1 donated to OSI Fund on each shirt.

  • Think different (Score:5, Funny)

    by 3Suns ( 250606 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:19PM (#6668875) Homepage
    Now we can get Apple to pull their old ads [virtualave.net], knowing that Linux is Ghandi's official OS.

  • Extra Plus (Score:5, Insightful)

    by 4of12 ( 97621 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:19PM (#6668876) Homepage Journal

    I'm sure Indians will enjoy getting a high quality freely-modifiable operating system for almost no money.

    It will enable more of their domestic industry to gain the advantages of information technology that enable the kinds of productivity growth rates the US has seen in the last decade or so.

    Here in the US, as a Linux user, I'm looking forward to gaining from this development as well.

    From a population of 1e9, the country produces a fair share of the world's brilliant programmers.

    Plus, they can read and write English, which gives them a head start relative to China, which possesses a like number of intelligent programmers.

    • "Plus, they can read and write English," This gives them a head start over most /. users as well as alot of Americans.

  • It's good to see (Score:2, Insightful)

    by maroberts ( 15852 )
    ..that from the article Bill Gates dropping $400million into India helps increase sales of non-Microsoft products.

    Maybe the Indian people are better at seeing through the charade and snake-oil salesmanship than we are... or can you come up with a better reason? :-)

  • Piracy? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by tunabomber ( 259585 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:22PM (#6668901) Homepage
    "According to Red Hat, about 10 percent of India's personal computers will be sold with Linux rather than Microsoft operating systems by March, 2004"

    And what percentage of the buyers of these computers will be just buying them to only to escape the Microsoft tax and then install a Windows bootleg?

    I swear, piracy has to be the biggest threat to Linux in the developing world. Ironically, It's better for Microsoft if you steal their software than it is for you to install Linux.
    • I've seen a lot of comments here about avoiding the windows tax. This doesn't take into account the fact that very few people actually buy branded computers like HP etc. Most of them are assembled from parts and sold by companies/individuals who ask you what software you want on you computer and then load up pirated versions of everything you ask. Considering that name brand computers are almost 2x or more costly this is what most people buy.

      Another things is the whole $380 per year thing is misleading d

  • Migration time. (Score:3, Funny)

    by bytesmythe ( 58644 ) <bytesmythe&gmail,com> on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:24PM (#6668917)
    I already like Indian food. I can't wait to see what they do with their own distros.
    LadoOS... CurryOS... MasalaOS... yum!

    In all seriousness, I've read a lot of worried articles recently talking about the mass migration of IT jobs from the US to India (and even the migration of IT jobs from India to Singapore). As much as I hate that people are losing jobs due to shortsighted business practices, this may be how linux finally gains a dominant foothold in the computer market. I've also heard that Bangalore is really nice. Maybe it's time to renew the ol' passport and migrate. ;)

    I've been told (by Indians) that Indian students in the US must either 1) go to a really nice school, or 2) stay after their schooling and work at an American company before they have a good chance of getting a job back in India. Does anyone know if Americans with tech experience have a chance of getting a job in India?

  • Wonder how many in India will get an Invoice from SCO [cbronline.com]

    Submitted the story but got rejected, Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned the word jail-time so often. ;-)

  • hmm... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by EZmagz ( 538905 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:27PM (#6668949) Homepage
    Two things come to my mind when I think of Linux in India:

    1. What does Bill Gates think of this? He's been donating millions of dollars to India as part of his Bill Gates Foundation philanthropy project, and IIRC some (most?) of it was under the guise of AIDS relief. Being the pessimest that I am, I always felt that Gates pumped so much money into India to prime the tech workers over there for taking over US jobs. Who knows, maybe Gates knew a long time ago that every US programming/tech support job would get moved offshore, and prepared for it by assuring himself that India knew How Microsoft Plays Ball (tm). So with Indians now embracing Linux, are they preparing to ditch MS in favor of other technologies?

    On a related note, does that mean that now I have to worry about being beat out of a linux sys admin job by the ever-growing fleet of L-1's? Cnn.com has a good yet depressing look at this today, here [cnn.com]. I kind of pride myself on not just being another VB.NET hack or MS2000 Server clone out there looking for jobs. I'd become even more angry at the world if these jobs became a thing of the past (at least here in MN) as well.

    Just some thoughts.

    • Re:hmm... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Mryll ( 48745 )
      Give it about another six to twelve months here without any relief in the tech job market - high tech crime is about to become VERY popular.

  • Not too surprizing considering... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by akiaki007 ( 148804 ) <aa316@@@nyu...edu> on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:36PM (#6669049)
    This shouldn't be too surprizing considering:

    1. The general education of India is more technical and scientific than in arts and such. Therefore a larger interest in the more "geeky" technical things. This is a big generalization.

    2. Given the existance of IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) [google.com] and that it's tougher to get into there than it is MIT and UC Berkely, it just re-itterates #1 above.

    3. And of course, the fact that the GNP per capita in USD is $380 per year makes things tough to learn or use anything that costs a significant amount of money. Now, the $380 is very low and is mainly this low because of the VERY rural towns and villages. In the city it is significantly higher, but not enough to call the average high or rich.

    4. Given low income and abundance of people, anyone doing any job will have to do it their best, therefore they will try to use the least amount of resources in order to accomplish the most. Using something free helps in this respect as you save on capital - a very important resource.

    This post might seem as a very one-sided post, but I can't think of any reason why MS would be at all useful here. If someone doesn't even know how to turn on a computer, using XP is going to be as difficult as using a Linux flavour.
  • ... that was before Linux changed the spelling from "flavour" to "flavor"!

  • This is not a new trend (Score:5, Interesting)

    by nettarzan ( 161548 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:42PM (#6669108)
    I think the history repeats itself. Back in 1970s, IBM wanted to gain market for its mainframes in India.
    But as we all know the Mainframe hardware, software and services costs lots of $$$.
    So instead placing bets on a proprietory vendor with lots of money, the government officials decided to go without it.
    This presented an opportunity for others. Indian companies like HCL licensed inexpensive Unix from AT&T, built their own hardware and modified the source code to run on their hardware.
    All the universities and banks had modest computing power running on a version of Unix.
    Students learnt Unix not OS 390 and it turned out that Unix is the future and mainframes were obsolete. We all now know why this is good for India.
    The same thing happening now, instead of IBM substitute M$.
    So lack of money can sometimes be advantageous.

    As Mahatma Gandhi said, too little and too much wealth are not good for well-being of the society.

    • Interesting parent! Mod up. :-)

      As Mahatma Gandhi said, too little and too much wealth are not good for well-being of the society.

      That may or may not be (I tend to concur), but there is something about all that that seems much more certain to me: If the folks in India behave themselves in the near future as have the Taiwanese since ~1980's (which is clearly the case), then wealth disparity will be a side issue as the middle classes flourish there. I just hope that folks in other countries (including mi

  • how comforting (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Flunitrazepam ( 664690 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @03:44PM (#6669122) Journal
    How comforting it is to know that when my entire tech support dept gets outsourced to India, my former employer will be unwittingly using linux.

  • Why would anyone want to have to settle for a wimpy box because the M$ tithe is the difference between a killer box and a wimpy box.

    Its a no brainer. Linux rules. (The same economic pressure that gave rise to clones [and floated M$ boat] are going to wipe M$ off the map.

    The fact that Linux is better, stabler, supported by the world-wide open-source community is gravy but the fact is that boxen with M$ cost more and M$ is doomed to die.

  • John "Maddog" Hall (Score:4, Insightful)

    by suso ( 153703 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @04:03PM (#6669302) Journal
    One of the quotes from a presentation by John "Maddog" Hall a few years ago at ApacheCon was that "with 500 million personal computers in the world, that means that there are still 5.5 billion that haven't chosen their operating system yet." I always liked that saying.

  • my experience (Score:3, Insightful)

    by linuxghoul ( 16059 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @04:03PM (#6669308) Journal
    Linux makes quite a bit of practical sense in India. No indian can really afford to pay retail for software. Even the $40 that is the (rumored) cost of windows to PC OEMS is something most people just cannot pay in addition to the huge price of a computer. The OS and the office suite are thus mostly pirated, and usually include a plethora of free viruses...Ditto for the development environments. Everyone who is serious about learning comp/programming realizes sooner o\r later that instead of trying to pirate each and every tool one needs for a dev environment, its just better to move to linux.
    In addition to that, there are magazine like PC Quest [pcquest.com] which have distributed free linux distro CDs (and include loads of good linux articles) with the magazine since around 1994. These CDs are how i got hooked on linux. That helps...
    In my college, the IITs [indianembassy.org] linux has long been the OS of choice in comp labs. They would rather buy a few more PCs than spend the huge ammount on WIN+DEV STUDIO, (even after the educational discount), and even when i was there, 5 years back, students, even non power users clearly preferred the linux systems over the NT systems...to the end where they migrated the NT ones to linux too.
    blah...i thought i had a point here...DAMN ADD :P Ghoul2

  • Good for Inida (Score:3, Interesting)

    by AstroDrabb ( 534369 ) on Monday August 11, 2003 @07:18PM (#6671185)
    I hope they can really get a good jump on Open Source and use it to boost their local economy. I was born and raised in the good ole' USA. However, I am saddened by the fact that Americans make up ONLY 5% of the worlds population yet we have snatched up more then 50% of the worlds wealth. That seems like excessive greed to me. This leaves the other 95% (like India) to fight over less then 50% of the worlds wealth. Again, this just doesn't seem right to me. I hope ALL non-US nations can really build up THEIR OWN IT and not be reliant on the USA and espcially MS. While I think international trade is important, I think the majority of any nations IT should stay in that nation. Maybe India will not be selling it's IT wares internationally, but it could really spark it's own industry and keep India's money where it belongs, in India.
  • Linux users say a four-day visit to India last November by Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates (news - web sites), who announced $400 million in local investments, drew attention to Linux.

    D'oh!

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