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Linux Software

Indian State Switches to Linux 591

Posted by michael from the low-cost-high-tech dept.
pamri writes "In a pleasant and surprising move, the Indian state of Madhya Pradesh, has opted to switch to Linux from Microsoft for its Gyandooth (intranet in Dhar district connecting rural cybercafes catering to the everyday needs of the masses) programme. What is more surprising is that the state's Chief Minister Digvijay Singh personally conveyed this to Bill Gates. A choice quote: 'For us it is not a question of Microsoft versus Linux. It is just a matter of choosing between a free software and a monopoly. We feel that when we are putting public information out in the open, then it should not be through a proprietary software.'"
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Indian State Switches to Linux More

Indian State Switches to Linux

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  • Plain economics (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:22AM (#4715779)
    IT is just cheaper on Linux and old hardware. Which the country of India has plenty of.

    • Re:Plain economics (Score:3, Insightful)

      by rovingeyes ( 575063 )
      IT is just cheaper on Linux and old hardware. Which the country of India has plenty of

      1) If India has anything in plenty it is people. Even though there are lot of techies from India, on a average one computer is share by atleast 3 guys in schools. And as far as I know I have never seen an Indian throw away stuff just becoz it is old.

      2)Your notion of IT being cheap on Linux is very wrong. In fact if not properly implemented you will end up investing a lot on IT, just for the simple reason that you need linux admins who are good (considering that it is for govt). Even then administring linux is not as simple as windows.

      • Re:Plain economics (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Jason Earl ( 1894 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @12:07PM (#4716187) Homepage Journal

        Labor is cheap in India, especially compared to software licenses. Not to mention the fact that the government gets to tax Indian wages, where money send to Redmond is gone from India's economy.

        Besides, at least here in the States, Linux admins don't make more than Windows admins. The studies I have seen show that the pay is quite comparable.

      • Re:Plain economics (Score:5, Interesting)

        by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @12:57PM (#4716775) Homepage Journal
        Your notion of IT being cheap on Linux is very wrong. In fact if not properly implemented you will end up investing a lot on IT, just for the simple reason that you need linux admins who are good (considering that it is for govt). Even then administring linux is not as simple as windows.

        Configuring Unix for security is harder than windows because windows offers you niceties such as the group policy editor and heavy use of ACLs. While various linux filesystems support ACLs, no one is using them yet. I'm sure it's coming, though, which will go a long way towards ease of administration.

        On the other hand, it's pretty easy to write some simple scripts, institute logrotation, and so on which will make Linux (or any other Unix) fairly self-maintaining. In my experience the Unix system administrator's job tends towards hardware maintenance and upgrades, and software upgrades, but very little maintenance beyond keeping up with security. Various Linux distributions have offered a number of methods for solving this problem. I personally prefer gentoo's, and if you did a little work on the gentoo build system and an automounter config, you could do frequent centralized updates with it; Of course various other distributions actually have systems in place to do these things for you, as they are shipped. This is just an example of the simpler, smaller tools which come from the Unix mindset (reusability through pipes) making system automation much easier.

        A basic Linux distribution is in no way more complicated than windows. In many ways it is simpler; No mucking with the registry and all the pain that it entails is a big step in the right direction. Linux had journaling filesystems before NT, too, and it has faster and more advanced filesystems now (though who can say what is in store for NTFS in the future?) In the end Linux's primary attractions are twofold; The first is that it is free(beer) and the other that it is free(speech). To most of the world, those things are significant in that order, as well.

        Unix tends to just work. Windows tends to have little bells and whistles (like a *usually responsive gui which also happens to be easy to use and does a hell of alot) but you don't need those things to do work. There are various adequate file managers for Unix which let you get real work done without bloat. They don't do everything Windows does, but you don't need to. The glitz and glimmer of windows is nothing but candy. I like to eat candy (Mostly in the form of Tactical Ops and Mechwarrior IV) so I still run Windows XP on the desktop, and Linux as an appliance...

        • Re:Plain economics (Score:5, Insightful)

          by blakestah ( 91866 ) <blakestah@gmail.com> on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @01:19PM (#4717035) Homepage
          Configuring Unix for security is harder than windows because windows offers you niceties such as the group policy editor and heavy use of ACLs. While various linux filesystems support ACLs, no one is using them yet. I'm sure it's coming, though, which will go a long way towards ease of administration.

          This is nice if you are trying to protect your system from your own users.

          However, if you are interested in protected it from remote attacks, linux is MUCH easier. Iptables (for firewalling) is built in for free, and scripts to configure it are freely available. Security updates are quickly available and easy to apply. Linux wins, it is a no brainer.

          A competent admin can make either OS secure, from local or remote attack. My subjective estimate is that Unix/linux admins can handle far more boxes per person than Windows admins, though.

        • Re:Plain economics (Score:5, Informative)

          by Malor ( 3658 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @03:05PM (#4718043) Journal
          I've been using Linux a long time, and as far as I know, the statement "linux had journaling filesystems before NT" is absolutely, utterly false. NT 3.51 had journaling.

          Linux didn't have journaling in the mainstream kernel until the ext3 patches were accepted. You could probably have gotten some journaling under Linux with manual patching and installation of beta software in the NT 4.0 timeframe, but I don't believe the mainstream distros offered journaled filesystems until after Windows 2000 shipped.

          Further, NTFS is extremely robust and resilient. It's EXTREMELY unusual to lose data from an NTFS partition. Compare that to reiserfs, which has had many, many, many problems over the years. (I believe it is considered stable now.)

          Admittedly, to some degree, NT *had to* have a great filesystem, because it was unstable. And Linux could get away with the horrid ext2 filesystem because the OS was so reliable that the filesystem was very rarely shut down incorrectly.

          But, regardless, NTFS got journaling and ACL's really *right* long, long ago. Between the two features, it's a lot better than anything Linux offers (yet). Linux is improving rapidly, but filesystems and permissions are core NT strengths and should not be casually dismissed.

      • Re:Plain economics (Score:5, Informative)

        by phsolide ( 584661 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @01:01PM (#4716816)
        Even then administring linux is not as simple as windows.

        How do you figure? We've all encountered the fact that MSFT products just aren't documented or the documentation is inadequate or just plain wrong. We've all encountered mysterious Blue Screens of Death. We've all encountered Windows 95 and 98 machines that are dying of cruft buildup. We've all encountered "magic" GUI applications that don't have a command line counterpart. We've all encountered installs that require reboots (I had to reboot my Win2K box just to upgrade AIM recently). Just reasoning from first principles, I can say that administering an number of Linux machines will be easier than administering the same number of Windows machines - the admin won't have to physically show up at a linux machine unless something is really wrong with it.

        Very honestly, I think that administering a number of Linux machines (number greater than 5) will end up easier and cheaper than the same number of Windows machines.

        I'd love to see some "plain economics" rebutting this. As near as I can tell, real information that exists contradicts your position:

        I'm calling "FUD" on your position.

        • Re:Plain economics (Score:3, Interesting)

          by quantum bit ( 225091 )
          (I had to reboot my Win2K box just to upgrade AIM recently)

          Don't believe it. Most installers are stupid. When they say the need to reboot, just ignore them (kill the process through task manager if they don't give you a choice).

          I got 60-140+ day uptimes back when I was running Win2k by doing this. Everything that claimed it needed a reboot worked fine without it -- except for MS security patches :*(

        • Re:Plain economics (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Matey-O ( 518004 ) <michaeljohnmiller@mSPAMsSPAMnSPAM.com> on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @01:45PM (#4717299) Homepage Journal
          We've all encountered the fact that MSFT products just aren't documented or the documentation is inadequate or just plain wrong. We've all encountered mysterious Blue Screens of Death. We've all encountered Windows 95 and 98 machines that are dying of cruft buildup. We've all encountered "magic" GUI applications that don't have a command line counterpart.

          We've all encountered Samba, Sendmail, and Kernel panics too. We've encountered varying ways of bringing up Runlevels, frontends that configure stuff, but you don't know WHERE it configures 'em.

          Pot, I'd like you to meet kettle, BTW, you're both black.

          • Tips... (Score:3, Informative)

            by jelle ( 14827 )
            The point he was making that in windows it's often not documented, so it often ends up with trial and error, hours of kb searches, or just reinstalling with fingers crossed. In Linux, you have the source and the configuration files are human readable, you just need to find the beginning of the yellow brick road and follow it.

            "bringing up Runlevels,"

            Start at /etc/inittab and follow the rail of scripts, first the script on the 'si:' line, then look at the 'default:' line, and follow the 'l?:' line with '?' the runlevel. You'll probably find most your start and stop scripts in /etc/init.d, and /etc/rcS.d with links from /etc/rc?.d

            Most other configurations are in /etc, and per user ones in '.*' (hidden) files or directories of the user's home directory.

            Sendmail problems? Try postfix [postfix.org], you'll love it. Easier to configure, easier to understand, and better security track record. btw, configuration is in /etc/postfix... duh.

            Got a kernel panic and it's not because youre using the 2.5.x unstable kernels? -> Most probably hardware that is breaking down.

  • yeah yeah yeah (Score:4, Funny)

    by chef_raekwon ( 411401 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:23AM (#4715787) Homepage
    someone has balls!
    someone has balls!!

    india 1
    gates 0

  • At least it wasn't Sun.. (Score:5, Funny)

    by buzzsport ( 558426 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:23AM (#4715790)
    If it was McNealy would have a new tag-line:

    We're the dot in.. ah.. nevermind.

  • Hmmm... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Pig Hogger ( 10379 ) <pig DOT hogger AT gmail DOT com> on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:23AM (#4715793) Journal
    I guess that was the last Bill Gates contribution to AIDS in India...

  • Horray! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by dethl ( 626353 )
    One less country in the clutches of the evil M$ corporation! Viva la resitance!

    Do you think M$ will get the obvious message being sent out from this situation...probably, but then again, they'll just take over another small 3rd world country.

    • India ... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by vrai ( 521708 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:33AM (#4715897)
      ... is hardly a 'small 3rd world country'. It has a population of over a billion and is the world's largest democratic nation. Admittedly we're only talking about one state here, but this is far more significant than say Greece (first world-ish but insignificant) switching to Linux.

      Just to make it more amusing though is the fact that Microsoft retained a large number of Indian coders during the XP 'debugging' cycle; nice to see they're not afraid to bite the hand that occasionaly feeds.

      • Re:India ... (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Single GNU Theory ( 8597 )
        this is far more significant than say Greece (first world-ish but insignificant) switching to Linux

        I have to disagree with you there. IMO, every switch to Linux and friends is significant.

        Saying Greece is insignificant would be like saying New Hampshire (pretty small by most counts such as area and population) doesn't amount to much in U.S. Presidential elections.

  • Really? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by joib ( 70841 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:25AM (#4715815)
    Makes one wonder if they really are planning to switch, or if it's yet another scheme to extort free MS-licences from Billy-boy..

  • Maybe it's like poker .. (Score:5, Funny)

    by riven1128 ( 448744 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:27AM (#4715829)
    Gates: We'll see your refusal to switch and raise you a contribution to

    • Facts to keep in mind :

      Corruption is a way of life, especially if you are in the government. While corruption is not unknown in the US, these are usually exceptions (most law buying takes place over the table rather than under it and is thus not "corrupt" behaviour). In India, the honest politicians would be the exception. Odds are that someone in Karnataka did take a bribe.

      Madhya Pradesh is not one of the technologically advanced states. Karnataka (which has Bangalore) is - hence Bill Gates would naturally spend more money on Karnataka. Even if Madhya Pradesh chose to stick to WinXX, it is doubtful that it would constitute a good market for MS.

      All, in all, it does look like a bid in the poker game.

      • Re:Hitting too close to home (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Darby ( 84953 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @03:14PM (#4718121)
        While corruption is not unknown in the US, these are usually exceptions

        You are deluding yourself if you think that this is even remotely true. Corruption is the absolute rule in our government. Explain DMCA, Patriot act, Mickey Mouse Protection act, Homeland Security (alone and with all the riders) in any other way.

        In India, the honest politicians would be the exception.

        Here we apparently had one left who is now dead.
        Wellstone was the one dissenter to the Patriot act.
        Anyone who voted in favor of that showed their hatred and contempt of the constitution, freedom, and basically everything America says that we stand for.
        If you disagree try and come up with an actual reason that I'm wrong.

        It's sad that you can have proof piled upon proof that the US government is completely owned and corrupt yet you are afraid to face the truth.
        I'm not singling you out. Most people in America are afraid of facing reality. That is out primary problem.

  • I must be missing something (Score:3, Funny)

    by iamwoodyjones ( 562550 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:27AM (#4715831) Journal
    Where in the article did it say he conveyed this personaly to Bill Gates. All I saw was that he conveyed it to ET.

    I thought I was going to see a quote around the lines of, "Madhya walked up to Bill, spat in his face and said, 'Take that Billy Boy. You monopolistic capitlistic pig. I'm going to use something free as in getting really drunk'"

    Alas I'm missing something here.

  • question (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Guipo ( 591513 )
    at what point, does other OS's have sufficient market share, and then Microsoft wont be concidered a monopoly? Guipo

    • Re:question (Score:3, Funny)

      by grub ( 11606 )

      at what point, does other OS's have sufficient market share, and then Microsoft wont be concidered a monopoly?

      Normal Answer: When Microsoft is no longer the dominant player in both the OS and applications markets and they stop using their muscle to put small companies out of business.

      Slashdot Answer: When Bill Gates is drawn and quartered in a town square in Finland and Redmond is a deep, smouldering crater.

      • Been to redmond lately? It already IS a deep, smoldering crater. Another Bellevue, alas. It used to be something more than a mall and the belly of the beast.

  • The posted statementis self defeating. If you can make such a choice then by definition there is no monopoly.
    • In the strict sense of the clueless approach you are taking towards MS being a monopoly, no they aren't a monopoly. They do have unfair control over the market, and no one else even comes close to competition with them due to the restrictions that they put in place for just that reason. And they have the choice of giving things away free to destory innovative competition.

      But since Linux in this instance is being approached as "free software" doesn't that exclude it from the definitions that govern what makes a monopoly? Unless you are talking about a non-market monopoly. The idea here is that there is one seller and multiple buyers. Linux isn't being sold here.
    • good point, and while technically you are correct, you still have to conceede that Microsoft has the major portion of the OS market, and has far more sway in the computer industry in general than all of it's competitors combined. Just look at the recent spat with Intel and AMD, wherein AMD got the official thumbs up from MS to get back at Intel.
      MS is leading the computer industry around by the nose. While it's not a true monopoly since they can't completely dictate terms, pulling away from that ring would sure hurt.

    • Re:Choice with a monopoly? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Elwood P Dowd ( 16933 ) <judgmentalist@gmail.com> on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:41AM (#4715972) Journal
      Yeah. It is. But he's right about it being proprietary. In a country with as many poor people as India, if they're going to burn money on computers in cybercafes, they should do it in a manner that will be as cheaply maintainable/upgradeable/etc. as possible.

      So if he restates the problem as free vs. proprietary, rather than free vs. monopoly, he's got a good point.

    • Re:Choice with a monopoly? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Havokmon ( 89874 ) <rick.havokmon@com> on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:49AM (#4716040) Homepage Journal
      The posted statementis self defeating. If you can make such a choice then by definition there is no monopoly.

      Not entirely true. I could outfit my house with Solar Panels, live totally off that, and Wisconsin Electric would still have a monopoly.

    • Re:Choice with a monopoly? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by rw2 ( 17419 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:50AM (#4716047) Homepage
      The posted statementis self defeating. If you can make such a choice then by definition there is no monopoly.

      To take the canonical example. Big Oil, Inc. has a 90% market share. They have gas stations in every town and control the vast majority of the market. Big Oil, Inc. changes the pricing structure of it's fuel to .50 below cost in a twenty mile radius around competing stations every time one opens. This causes the competition to go out of business.

      By your definition Big Oil, Inc. despite normally gouging the customers and making, say, 40% or better margins on it's fuel because of it's market position, is not a monopoly. Right?

      Ok, so use a different word. Oilopoly, Winopoly, whatever. The point being controlling share of the market, is that ok in your book? Crushing competition on a whim, competition free pricing, poor product quality. That's all fine and dandy?
    • indeed. it is yet another example of the gross misuse of that word.

      Monopolies (like Bell of old) HAVE 100% of the market.
      Monopolistics (like Microsoft) WANT 100% of the market.

      Big difference, and it isn't that hard to see.

      • Re:Choice with a monopoly? (Score:5, Informative)

        by rusty0101 ( 565565 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @12:16PM (#4716282) Homepage Journal
        Actually, Ma Bell/Pre-breakup ATT did not hav 100% of the market. Part of the market they chose not to participate in was the mom-pop phone companies in small communities. Apparently by your definition, and intuitively by the first poster's definiton, Ma Bell did not have a Monopoly.

        The definition of a Monopoly is not that the company has 100% of the market. It is that the company in question has a controlling share of a market that has a high startup cost associated with it.

        What Microsoft was accused of was not illegally maintaining their monopoly, it was that they were illegally using their lawful monopoly power to extend their monopoly into new markets, (web browsers, etc.).

        At the moment Microsoft is using monopoly power to attempt to force Linux out of several markets. By giving away copies in communities where free (as in beer) Linux is starting to gain interest they are attempting to undercut one of Linux's strong suits. Fortunately in the case of India, the Free (as in thinking) nature of Linux is another of it's strong suits that Microsoft has yet to find a way to undercut effectively.

        Then again I could be wrong, but I think the facts speak for my opinions.

        -Rusty

  • Yeah ok... (Score:4, Funny)

    by pranalukas ( 261189 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:28AM (#4715844)
    But will this eliminate Microsoft ads on Slashdot?

  • Mirror (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    MP opens windows to Linux
    ANIL SHARMA

    TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2002 01:42:20 AM ]
    BHOPAL: Madhya Pradesh has shut the door on Bill Gates. The state government schemes will use Linux software. Chief minister Digvijay Singh personally conveyed this to Microsoft boss Bill Gates during an interaction last week in New Delhi.

    "For us it is not a question of Microsoft versus Linux. It is just a matter of choosing between a free software and a monopoly. We feel that when we are putting public information out in the open, then it should not be through a proprietary software," Mr Singh told ET.

    Nor is it merely a public vs private ideological battle. Germany and Latin American countries, particularly Peru and Brazil, have opted for Linux rather than proprietary software to bring down costs, which keep mounting with successive upgrades in the case of proprietary software.

    Madhya Pradesh has two significant programmes that reach out to people in a big way: Gyandoot e-governance, which covers 26 out of 45 districts and won the Stockholm Challenge Award for 2000, and the Headstart programme for computer-enabled school education. For the Headstart programme, the state government is now committed to use Linux.

    Microsoft chairman Bill Gates has shown an interest in Gyandoot.

    According R Gopalakrishnan, state coordinator for the Rajiv Gandhi missions, the first phase of the Headstart did use Microsoft software, but the next will use Linux.

    "This should set at rest any fears that we are anti-Microsoft as such. But we have opted for Linux in this phase, because of the cost factor, and the fact that it avoids costly upgrades and improved versions that are an inseparable element of Microsoft packages," he said.

    "It is a considered decision taken by us. We have noted that several governments in the west and other countries too have opted for the Linux software instead of Microsoft because of a host of considerations," Mr Singh said.

  • Wait a Minute! (Score:5, Funny)

    by 4of12 ( 97621 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:29AM (#4715861) Homepage Journal

    Dammit, who let a man of principle become highly placed in government?

    This would never have happened back here in the good ole U.S. of A!

    • Re:Wait a Minute! (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Usquebaugh ( 230216 )
      Principle , priciple he says...

      The only reason you think he has principles is that he agrees with your beliefs. Looks like the school boy moderators agree with you.

      Principled indeed. He's a politician, do you have any idea what that job involves? It has very little to do with working for the benefit of the electorate.

      • Re:Wait a Minute! (Score:4, Insightful)

        by 4of12 ( 97621 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @12:54PM (#4716740) Homepage Journal

        The only reason you think he has principles is that he agrees with your beliefs.

        You're right - my knee-jerk reaction.

        Forgive me, I'm just so conditioned to think that any politician that doesn't automatically climb into bed with money is somehow better and different from most.

  • Madhya Pradesh in the background [ahajokes.com] I see laughing?

  • Will this destroy MS? (Score:5, Funny)

    by riven1128 ( 448744 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:30AM (#4715871)
    I can see it now.. in 10 years on FOX we'll see a "Where are they now" featuring Bill Gates.. you'll have to explain to your children who this bad man was.

    Maybe he'll be working for sun in the mail room..?

    I can dream can't I?

  • Meet the new boss (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Gizzmonic ( 412910 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:30AM (#4715872) Homepage Journal
    Linux prepares to take the reigns of government in an (admittedly) impoverished state. The minister of state conveys his commitment to free and public software. A symbolic victory on this hand.

    But what about the growing perspective that Linux is free, and thus, is somehow "cheap"? If this and other third-world countries like South Africa continue to embrace Linux, will it lose points in the corporate boardroom?

    Already we have the KDE project, which continues to make a "Windows clone" desktop. New users may be confused by this desktop, and come to think of Linux as a cheap, third-rate alternative to Windows.

    Although Linux can't respectfully decline the Indian government's offer, perhaps some its senior officials (Torvalds, Cox etc) should distance themselves from this decision. Otherwise, it we may be hearing "cheap Linux crap!" as often as our racist forefathers used to say "cheap Japanese crap!"

    • But what about the growing perspective that Linux is free, and thus, is somehow "cheap"? If this and other third-world countries like South Africa continue to embrace Linux, will it lose points in the corporate boardroom?

      Well now that all depends. If foreign based companies and governments start kicking ass with it, I'd think that would give US corporations pause.

      Imagine if some debt-ridden 3rd world country is able to pay off its national debt because they don't have to re-buy software every 18 months. I think that'd turn some heads.

      Besides, India's not really a 3rd world country anyway. They have nuclear capability. Sure, there standard of living there is different and many over there are unimaginably poor, but they are highly advanced in sciences and technology -- particularly mathematics and computer science.

    • What you call a clone I call a more enjoyable desktop experience. I've used KDE since the 1.x days, and I've been pleased to see several features implemented in KDE well before I saw it in the latest Windows version.

      Take, for example, grouped tasks on the taskbar; I don't know at what point it became part of KDE or Windows exactly, but I distinctly remember using it in KDE for some time before seeing it in the latest Windows beta.

      Another example would be built-in theme support that actually significantly changes the way the desktop looks. I'm talking widgets, borders, icons, etc. I agree that this feature is mere fluff and even unwanted in certain environments, but the ability for KDE to look and act like several environments is a strong feature in my view. As an example, for about the past month I tried out the "Mac OS" style menu - all my KDE menus showed up at the top of the screen. This is supposedly better for ergonomics because one can fling his/her mouse towards the top of the screen and hit the menu more quickly than hunting it out. In addition, some people like the focus to move with the mouse, and most X wms support this easily.

      In the end, every UI uses common good ideas from the others. Mac OS X, Windows, KDE, GNOME, etc. all share a fair amount in common - to call any of them simply a "clone" of the other is oversimplified. To me, KDE makes a desktop experience that's relatively easy to learn, yet packs an incredible system for customization.

      The biggest risk of Linux being branded as "cheap" is offering it as a "Windows replacement" on the cheapest of computers (like Walmart is doing). Putting it on cheap computers is fine, but I'd like to see some Linux ready mid level and high end machines be more advertised to the masses.

    • Linux is free, yes.
      Linux is cheap, don't think so.
      IBM dumping a billion US dollars per year into Linux isn't cheap.
      Linux can be obtained cheaply, very cheaply, but since the break-even point of what is *worthwhile* doing is very different, the TCO of Linux may well be greater than that of Microsoft Windows. What *will* be done with Linux is not the same as what will be done with Microsoft Windows.
      ( IBM may well be right in that they "more than got their money back" ;)
  • Even if all this is just to get some free software its pretty good. Microsoft has to pay to get people to use their software, i would call that a big loss wouldnt you. Even if they get stucked on MS or "hooked" they have the option to switch when time comes to cough up the dough.

  • Free beer or speech? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Beatbyte ( 163694 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:31AM (#4715882) Homepage
    I would speculate whether or not this is because of the cost or the freedom.

    I know they have better things to spend money on than client licenses for MS stuff. I do think its a great push for linux worldwide BUT I would just happen to think the free as in speech part is just a plus for not having to pay (as much w/ TCO).

    Either way, I wish our own government would use linux. As it would be a great push away from the monopoly [microsoft.com] that they "punished".

    In related news... The U.S. government flunked a computer-security review for the third consecutive year [com.com]

  • Cost and Idealogy (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Blindman ( 36862 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:31AM (#4715884) Journal
    Obviously Microsoft cannot compete on price or flexibility. Microsoft's main advantage seems to be its pervasiveness and it ability to run Office. Even if Office is the best productivity suite available, is it so much better that it is worth the extra cost of the software and the O/S needed to run it?

    I'm just glad to see it when a customer wants something that Microsoft cannot and/or will not provide that they are willing to give Linux a chance. In this particular case, it looks like the decision wasn't made based on cost, but the cost of Linux is what made the decision possible.

    It guess people will generally choose freedom especiall when it is free (as in beer!).
    • And one other point that M$ usually takes great pains to make...think of the training costs to switch to Linux.

      To which I'd love to hear someone respond:

      "Yeah but that's money that goes back into OUR economy, not Bill's pockets"


    • Re:Cost and Idealogy (Score:5, Informative)

      by binaryDigit ( 557647 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:56AM (#4716099)
      Even if Office is the best productivity suite available, is it so much better that it is worth the extra cost of the software and the O/S needed to run it?

      Damn skippy it would be. Remember, companies don't use OS's, they use applications. This is why SGI used to be so successful even though their stuff was ungodly expensive compared to other solutions, they provided tools to let people get done what they needed to get done in the best way possible. Hell, if you could get your hands on a piece of software that made you 25% more efficient at doing your job (of course this is in absolutely no way implying that office does this, this is just a generalzation), wouldn't you sink an extra $500 to acquire it? In a heartbeat you would.

      The main point being that in the end, the OS don't mean squat, its the apps that run on it. "Minor" cost variances in the OS doesn't save you much in the long term if you can't get the apps that will help you do your job better. This is why M$ dominates on the desktop, but is losing more ground in the server room, Windoze is a desktop oriented OS, Linux is (was) not. Linux makes inroads in the server space because the applications available more readily lend themselves to that.

    • Re:Cost and Idealogy (Score:5, Insightful)

      by MrResistor ( 120588 ) <peterahoff@PERIODgmail.com minus punct> on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @01:12PM (#4716954) Homepage
      Even if Office is the best productivity suite available, is it so much better that it is worth the extra cost of the software and the O/S needed to run it?

      Not to people who have no need for the alleged additional functionality that Office provides. I have yet to encounter a task that I could do with Office that can't do just as well, and often more easily, with OpenOffice and Mozilla.

      If that is true for me, a person who is very familiar with MS products, then I think it is certainly true for someone from the backwaters of India who has little, if any, experience with computers at all.

  • Ha! (Score:3, Informative)

    by Ivan Raikov ( 521143 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:34AM (#4715910) Homepage
    That after yesterday's article, Microsoft freebies turn India gov. against open-source [salon.com]. Oh, the sweet, sweet irony!

  • GNU/Linux (Score:4, Funny)

    by sfraggle ( 212671 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:35AM (#4715918) Homepage
    Is RMS going to write to the Madhya State officials and complain that they called it "Linux" and not "GNU/Linux" now?

    • Re:GNU/Linux (Score:2, Insightful)

      by epyT-R ( 613989 )
      Don't these stupid jokes get tiresome after awhile? Post something intelligent or don't bother.

  • A Question of Monopoly (Score:3, Interesting)

    by airrage ( 514164 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:37AM (#4715932) Homepage Journal
    We feel that when we are putting public information out in the open, then it should not be through a proprietary software

    I find this quote quite fascinating. India is a nation-state where the top 5% of the population own all the wealth; essentially they have a monopoly on the other lower castes. All the public infrastructure is publicly owned (trains, electricity). Given all this I find it hard to believe that India has been affronted in some way by avoiding a monopoly. What I do believe is that Inida is a country where most are poor and the barriers to technology are extremely high. With Linux, or any free computer technology, that gate is lowered somewhat; though you still have to buy the hardware.

    What Linux really needs, I believe, to be the real market winner is to take on Microsoft on equal terms and win-out. Not some back-door, third-world country win, but a real win in the Fortune 500 cubicles of corporate America. But it's a start, and as Gandhi said, "A journey of a thousand miles, starts with just one step."

    "How do you like your shackles?"
    "Oh, they are quite a nice fit!"
    "Excellent, we made them with Linux."

    • Re:A Question of Monopoly (Score:5, Insightful)

      by kalidasa ( 577403 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:47AM (#4716020) Journal

      I find this quote quite fascinating. India is a nation-state where the top 5% of the population own all the wealth

      Unlike the US, where the top 5% of the population own something like 80% of the stocks, bonds and real estate.

      essentially they have a monopoly on the other lower castes.

      I'd be very careful about using the word "caste" if I were you; there's a lot of misinformation about what "caste" means.

      All the public infrastructure is publicly owned (trains, electricity).

      Unlike, say, Europe?

    • What Linux really needs, I believe, to be the real market winner is to take on Microsoft on equal terms and win-out. Not some back-door, third-world country win, but a real win in the Fortune 500 cubicles of corporate America.

      And then what will happen, you will stop using IE?

      Think about who has more users the government of India or a fortune 500 company?

      A not to everyone that thinks Linux is a failure as an OS because Fortune 500 companies in America aren't spending millions of dollars to switch, WHO CARES?

  • Indian tech sophistication (Score:5, Interesting)

    by MacAndrew ( 463832 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:39AM (#4715958) Homepage
    I've been lurking during this debate over who will (re)colonize India -- Linux or MS -- and am perplexed by one thing, the alleged reluctance of the Indian gov't (which apparently decides some things province by province?) to adopt a scheme like Linux that might not be completely turnkey. Everything I've read suggests that India is one of the biggest producers of computer technical talent, as the Silicon Valley drive for the U.S. to grant more worker visas attests. Also, much of U.S. tech support is being outsourced to India because of cheap fiber optic lines, cheaper tech labor, and the large number of fluent English speakers. (I've read in the NYT that some customer support reps even make up little American lives for chit-chat with unaware clients on the phone.)

    So ... doesn't India have the homegrown talents, and why do they need state visits from RMS and BG to make up their minds? Why does it seem politicians are getting in the middle of all this? (Oops, answered my own question.)

  • bad news for Linux? (Score:3, Troll)

    by tps12 ( 105590 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:40AM (#4715963) Homepage Journal
    Well, I guess I have to support the use of Linux for any sort of serious application. No such thing as bad publicity and all that. Plus, Linux is a perfect match in this case, since they can't afford anything non-free, and at the moment Linux is the best free OS (some would say it's the best OS period, but I'm not looking for a flamewar) out there. So that's good.

    One thing I've thought about a lot is the image that Linux has, in both the media and business worlds. It goes without saying that gaining a foothold in American industry is vital to the long-term success of Linux. But many corporations have been reluctant to switch to Linux due to its image as an OS used by outcasts, hippies, pirates, and hackers. We seem to be making some progress away from this, what with products like Lindows getting some press, but we have a long way to go.

    Now this comes along, and it's like we're being attacked from a whole new side. If Linux takes off in India, then we risk being associated with overpopulation, disease, tainted water supplies, and nucular warfare. What American company will consider using Linux after that? I wish there was a way to have it both ways, but I feel like the best thing for the Linux community to do at this point is to try to get India to switch to FreeBSD.

  • This is bull .... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by cyberjessy ( 444290 ) <jeswinpk@agilehead.com> on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:56AM (#4716103) Homepage
    The last week reading slashdot will convince u India is majorly into Linux. *Being and Indian* lemme tell you, this isnt happening here.

    The main reason is
    1. Piracy is rampant here. Ms Win costs Rs.0($0)
    2. Both being free, Windows is easier to use.
    3. Tools(MS VStudio) is also free.

    All the stories u see in slashdot are exxagerated.
    95% of developers in India target MS Win.

    thats it. simple.

    • Re:This is bull .... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by 0x0d0a ( 568518 )
      First Linux came out... ...and they said it didn't matter.

      Then it got faster than Windows... ...and they said it didn't matter.

      Then it turned into a more secure server than Windows... ...and they said it didn't matter.

      Then it got thousands of developers working on desktop software for it... ...and they said it didn't matter.

      Then Gartner Group said "move from MS to it"... ...and they said it didn't matter.

      Then all the big iron vendors started supporting it... ...and they said it didn't matter.

      Then client companies started moving their servers over to it... ...and they said it didn't matter.

      Then state and national governments started switching to it by the handful... ...and they said it didn't matter.

      It's grown faster in popularity than any other OS... ...and they said it didn't matter.

      What does it take?

  • What about us? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by SLASHAttitude ( 569660 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:58AM (#4716118) Homepage
    Why can't the US make such a switch? I know they have a lot invested in there M$ stuff right now but why could they not change. I think this comes down to people that run the software. We all know that politicians and a lot of people in government jobs are lazy and just there for the money or power. That is what I think is holding us back. Not to mention the lusers we have running things. They could never figure out why they can not get those .vbs files to work and not having to reboot every day.

  • From Linux to Windoze? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by binaryDigit ( 557647 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @11:59AM (#4716129)
    Just out of curiosity, we hear a lot about people migrating from various solutions over to Linux, but I don't hear much about people doing the reverse. Is this because this just isn't happening (doubt it) or that it's just not publicised? If it does occur, I think it would benefit the community greatly to feature them even more so than those who switch TO Linux. I think the reason is obvious, if someone is switching away, then there is something to be learned. It may be features, it may be economics, or it may even be politics, but I think that we would learn from these turncoa^h^h^h uh, people.

    • Re:From Linux to Windoze? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by distributed.karma ( 566687 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @12:08PM (#4716202)
      It if actually were happening, don't you think there would be lots and lots of publicity put forward by M$ -- just like the Mac converts stories.

      I simply find it hard to imagine thar organizations would convert from Win to Lin. In this Win-centric world, those who choose open source (either conversion or start up) are likely to have weighed the options quite carefully.

  • netcraft says... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jackstack ( 618328 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @12:13PM (#4716243) Journal
    The site www.mp.nic.in is running Microsoft-IIS/4.0 on NT4/Windows 98.

  • _Indian State_ not _India_ (Score:3, Informative)

    by MHV ( 547208 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @12:23PM (#4716361)

    I'm just amazed at how much people are getting this wrong. It is not the WHOLE of India that decided to switch to GNU/Linux, but only the state of Madhya Pradesh [mp.nic.in]. Guys, what would you have said if the headline was the American state of Arkansas, has opted to switch to Linux from Microsoft

    In case you didn't know, Bhopal has been the site of the world's worst chemical disaster in 1984. A leak from the Union Carbide (an american company) nearby plant has killed and injured thousands of citizens, and the company has denied responsibility for a long time. See here for more info [bhopal.net]. Somehow, I'm not surprised that they want to avoid the presence of big american companies

    Just my two maple-leaved cents

  • I came across this excellent article [business-standard.com] in an Indian business newspaper discussing the economics behind the use of free software vs proprietary software in developing countries like India. It also touches upon the adoption of Linux in Madhya Pradesh. In a nutshell, the article presents a strong argument in favour of free software mainly from the economic standpoint.

  • netherlands (Score:4, Informative)

    by jilles ( 20976 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @01:13PM (#4716956) Homepage
    Here in the Netherlands, the left-wing green party yesterday also proposed embracing open source. In a quite extensive report on their website (http://www.groenlinks.nl/nieuws/4001428.html, in Dutch). They motivate the proposal quite well. There are a few minor details that they got wrong (most notably, Linus' last name is misspelled and the fact that a closed source format is used for the actual report) but overall the message is that closed source is bad and open source can be beneficial for both economical reasons and other reasons such as security, reliability and openness. Considering the report is written by a non technical person for a non technical audience, the effort should be applauded.

    With the upcoming election in January, I hope this will be one of the election themes.

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