Moving Your Kids to Linux? 826
"My real motivation to do this is to save money and to teach my children that sometimes the best isn't always the most expensive. Also, being the cheap bastard that I am, I'm looking at all the money we've spent on Windows XP, Office and all the games over the years, and I'm wondering if there isn't a way to slowly supplant Linux into the mix and not sacrifice my children's computer experience but at the same time save some money and teach them something new.
My requirements are simple: I would like them to run their CD-ROM based games (which are mostly Director based games from Hasbro), and I would still like them to chat with their friends and also be able to play online Flash and Shockwave based games from Yahoo and Shockwave.
I believe I'm looking at an OpenOffice situation to replace Office, I suppose that would be fine and I think would work out (they aren't required to have perfect Word compatibility, its basically type a paper, and print it). For chat we're probably OK too, because something like GAIM would be fine -- Jabber based things would also be cool.
But my real concern is the CD-ROM games and Windows based games. I can't see my 3 year-old putting a CD-ROM into the drive and expecting it to auto-load and run like it does on XP -- without issues -- even with a perfect installation of WINE, hey, maybe I'm wrong, but is there a way to have it work as good as windows?
I've thought about loading up Mandrake and getting WINE working to see if it'll work out, but I'm not sure that I should waste my time, so I thought I'd ask some readers here if they're run into this situation and if I'm just crazy for thinking that this would be the wise thing to do at the expense of my children's computing experience."
Here's an idea... (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, since you asked for advice on raising your kids:
Move them off the screen altogether.
Nothing is going to promote the development of bad O/S interfaces more than indoctrinating young children to their quirks and bad design.
Why not encourage books and hands-on creative outlets rather than computer screens? Do you think they really need to learn about computers at age 3 and 7? Maybe the 11 year old, but I shudder to think you would try to teach your kids ANY OS at such a young age.
Let them enjoy life for awhile before they have to deal with an OS.
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:4, Insightful)
and at that age I didn't JUST use the computer: my mom still read to me, taught me my ABC's and 123's and by the time i hit kindergarden i was already at a 2nd rgade level.
At that age parents control the computer: let your kids experience it but in moderation and they'll be better for it technologically, but be sure to enrich them too
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:3, Funny)
but consider this war! =]
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a direct correlation between music ability and mathematical ability (and good grades in general). Plus, you'll strengthen their fingers if your child ever becomes a
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:5, Interesting)
Computers are a necessary part of the educational process. Not only are they gaining popularity in the classroom, but they're a fantastic research and learning device. They're more interactive than television, and can be a great secondary source to books (reviews, discussions, etc.) and toys (lego programming languages and the like).
I think it's more likely than not that these kids have toys, games and educational materials beyond the computer. Don't let the fact that you weren't 4 or 7 when you started using the box stop other people from teaching their kids early.
My bro has it and it'a a pain (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't think he's learning anything, because he just uses mozilla to check his mail and such. He still doesn't know how to do anything with linux.
Re:My bro has it and it'a a pain (Score:4, Insightful)
Anyhow,... I have 2 decent games boxes for my kids running windows, but I've also provided both vnc and shell (PuTTY) interfaces to my server and I'm encouraging my son (the girls just are NOT interested at this stage) to explore. Little progress so far, but he's at least poked around a bit.
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:5, Interesting)
Starting them early gives them an advantage. I was editing autoexec.bat when I was 7 and 8 years old, building machines when I was 13. Now I pay for university tuition and books by having programming and hardware jobs. (Debt free student.) Learning early pays.
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:3, Insightful)
Insightful?
I think not. First of all, books have nothing to do with UI design. There is nothing in a book that you can use in the design of a gui because a computer and a book give a fundamentally different experience at this point. When we are making computers in the form of books, IE with individual pages, then you can start looking to classic paper books for inspiration.
Second of all, creativity expressed through a computer is in no way less valid than creativity expressed through other means. The important issue is to make the computer a part of their life, rather than their entire life. Get them outside, yes. Get them reading books, yes. They should be painting and making messes and cleaning them up, but they should also be using the computer. It is both a wonderful tool for getting work done and a wonderful diversion; the internet (as an extension of computers) likewise.
Dealing with any operating system is like dealing with any other large, complex system. There are rules, sometimes the rules are broken. There are ways around some of the rules which get you in trouble, and some which don't; breaking some rules is harmless, and breaking others produces dire consequences. A child will either be frustrated or challenged, but it won't change what kind of person they are more than your interaction with them, unless they spend more time interacting with it than with you. In which case, the failure is not the computer's fault, it's yours.
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:5, Insightful)
My son is ten and has been using computers since he was about two. Right now we're playing a lot of WCIII. But he's also a lego fanatic in love with Bionicles, we play board games including chess, mastermind, and monopoly. We read nightly for at least 30 minutes, and often longer. He's not much into team sports, but he does loving his scooter and swimming.
I'd say he is enjoying life.
(And every time one of his games won't work or the OS screws up he gets to hear me about how crappy I think Windows is as an OS.)
The danger lies in kids thinking that computers or TV or chess or dance or *anything* is the be all and end all in life. Give them lots of outlets for their natural abilities they'll use them. A couple of weeks ago my son spent all day watching TV. But that was okay with me -- the next day we did a lot of different things and watched almost no TV. If he ever gets to the point where he seems to spend all his time on any one thing, I'll be worried. Until then, it's okay.
Sean.
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:4, Funny)
BOO SKEEN!!! *cries*
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:5, Funny)
Child labor (Score:3, Funny)
Thankfully, I have a very impregnable wife - she's cranked out two little computer monkeys for me so far - they're 3 and 1, and I figure that within a year or so, I can have them building 3D objects for me, doing the random photoshop cleanup to my texture maps, and generally taking workload off of me so I can spend more of my workday doing what God intended people to do during the workday - play games!!
Oops .
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:5, Insightful)
You obviously don't have kids. Kids, especially very young kids, want to do what they see their parents doing. And if dad is a geek...
My kids were using computers at three years old - because they wanted to "play" with the mouse and such. True it was a mac. But that only shows how easy macs are to use.
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:3, Interesting)
I used computers since I was 8 (I'm 24 now). I am very happy that I did so because it made my career. In any case, I am very glad my parents provided me with access to computers. I pursued learning computers by my own choice, but they gave me the opportunity. So if a child exhibits interest in computers, by all means give him/her the opportunity, but don't force anything. A little guidance can help, but again don't force anything, only if the child is interested. Do the same with any other interests, be it sports or music. I am still upset that my parents didn't buy me a drum kit when I was 9, despite my constant begging. I would've been a pro by now
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:5, Informative)
I am 61 and I've been hammering the keyboard since grad school in 1968 and have been programming professionally since 1980. I have never had problems with my wrists or fingers, except that I type faster than I ever have, and sometimes my mind thinks one thing and my fingers type (accurately) another, usually because I think, while I type, in terms of words and phrases, not letters.
About 10-12 years ago I had the symptoms of a heart attack while setting at the keyboard: numbing jaw and left arm, pain in the chest, and a clammy feeling with mild persperation. Alarmed I rushed to the doctor, who put me on a treadmill and gave my heart a clean bill of health. His next question was "do you spend a lot of time using a computer keyboard?" "Yes, why?" "Adjust the height of your chair & keyboard so you are not using your shoulder muscles to keep your arms elevated." Problem solved.
The older they are, the more work it will take (Score:3, Interesting)
From watching my nephews, I see a lot of their time is spent on websites (Bob the Builder, Blue's Clues, etc). Mozilla works great these days with most sites, so that shouldn't be too much of an adjustment. Good luck on the games, though.
Pay attention... (Score:3, Insightful)
Keep your kids on windows or you will forever be trying to explain why the games they want to play and the websites they want to visit don't work.
Yes, windows is a pain in the rear and you should be prepared to fix and reinstall, however it is reality and all your kids friends will be using it and their school will most likely be using it too (and before the Mac zealots get up in arms, get over it, Windows is deep into K-12 now).
Probably not the answer anyone wants to hear, but it's the way things are.
Re:Pay attention... (Score:5, Informative)
I had 5 computers when I was married and my kids lived with me. I had 3- one running linux, one running BSD, one dual booting windows and linux (or BeOS and linux, or solaris and windows). Another for my ex, and one for the kids. Low end pentiums (150mhz for 3 of them). I thought of putting my kids on linux, as I wanted them to learn how to get into linux like I had. Learn to not use windows, and really understand computers. Mind you, my oldest is almost 10 now. I wasn't concerned with 'computer shock' as they used Macs at school.
It didn't work out at all. They liked a few of the games, but they couldn't play the cdrom games (wine was no help) and even with Konqueror (on a P150? please) shockwave and flash were not very good.
So I threw windows back on. Sure, they trashed that box many times. I had to threaten them with no computer if I saw system files on the desktop again (I had no idea how they found them, or put them there). Or missing system files that caused windows to, oh, stop booting and all. (4 girls, all very computer curious. Even the youngest is click happy when no one is looking).
But, they learned the limitations of windows (while they were with me) and now when they come to visit, they treat the computer with more manners, and visit only known sites. Sorry, Linux wasn't and isn't ready for them.
My lessons learned (Score:3, Interesting)
My parents use Linux (I built them a Linux system and eventually they stopped using their Windows system). They won't switch back under any circumstances, and they are no more knowledgable than your average user.
The real issue is--
1) Pay attention to how they use the computer and make sure that they have the general tools needed to do everything they now do. This means planning.
2) Don't immediately get rid of Windows-- set up a new system side-by-side and make sure it does everything they want.
3) Help empower your children to learn more (not just about the UI but other things on the computer-- maybe you can set up a jabber server, etc. and involve your children in that project, if they are interested. Or help get them interested in programming.
Basically, don't force your children one direction or another. Just encourage them to move a different direction. They are more likely to embrace it and be happier.
uhmm.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Dont ask for trouble
Which version? (Score:3, Insightful)
then maybe you just should use Windows.
What version? OP wants something as stable in general as Windows XP but which runs older games as well as Windows 98 did.
Better yet. Run Windows under Linux via VM-Ware (Score:3, Flamebait)
2. You'll reduce the backlash by not forcing an OS that might not do everything THEY want it to do.
3. It's the perfect way to demonstrate, "Windows is Linux's bitch."
4. Giving enough HD space available, you could give each of them thier own Virtual Machine that they can trash with all the unsafe software they want.
5. Virtual Machines rule!!!
my kids (Score:4, Interesting)
The oldest one (8) is getting good at loading Mozilla and is learning how to type using emacs. The younger two just like all the nifty xscreensavers
They're so cute!
Re:my kids (Score:5, Funny)
I might as well file for unemployment now... I still can't figure out how to work that damn thing
Re:my kids (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd suggest setting up at least one dual-boot machine and letting the kids play with KDE. If they can figure out Windows' GUI, they can run KDE. Plus, they'll have fun naming and customizing all those desktops that Windows doesn't have!
But as the first poster said, the real problem is keeping them off the computer and away from the TV/games and getting them to go outside and play with real friends (or just do their homework). That's the first battle.
Re:my kids (Score:4, Funny)
New math (Score:5, Funny)
The new math?
Re:New math (Score:5, Funny)
The best situation... (Score:5, Insightful)
Have one PC for the things that they NEED Windows to run, and let them use it only for that. The other should run your free-OS of choice and related software.
As they grow older, teach them the difference, the improvements, and continue curtailing use of the Windows machine until it's just an expensive doorstop.
Very few migrations are successful when done immediatly and cold-turkey. Some are, but they are far and few between---especially when children are involved.
Re:The best situation... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The best situation... (Score:5, Interesting)
Worked for me. (Score:3, Insightful)
That is the way. Never take away functionality before you have replaced it. Web browsing works better under Linux now than it does under Windows so you can kill that first. Games and all that can stay with the old doze machine, but you would be amazed at how much more stable windoze is when you don't let it see the internet. Rebuild the old box one more time and then let it die as it will. Then you can take your time learning how to do things in Linux like singing dancing and games.
This is how I got myself and my wife off Windoze. We have one windoze computer left and it's blind to the netword. We boot it every now and then to write CDs. We don't miss it, and it's lasted longer than any other windoze PC I've ever built. When we install something and that program breaks another, the blame is clear cut. My computers are stable and do the things we want. You don't need M$ only services.
http://www.linuxforkids.org/ (Score:5, Informative)
Mats
Re:http://www.linuxforkids.org/ (Score:3, Funny)
Is he saying his wife is his mother, and she's 65 years old?!
rebooting 4 or 5 times a week? (Score:3, Interesting)
Taking your kids towards linux has two benefits here. It can cost you as a consumer less and it will give your kids (with good guidance) a good start in learning about computers and what they are truly capable of.
Re:rebooting 4 or 5 times a week? (Score:3, Insightful)
My two-year old has his own PC in his room and he plays it for two-three hours a day. I never turn it off, it just runs 24-7 whether he's playing it or not. He has a library of about 30 different games, some DirectX, some Flash, some straight Windows games, even a few DOS-based games. His machine is running Win98 and it's on Dell hardware with an added ATI All-In-Wonder and Sound Blaster 16. Guess what? I can't remember the last time it crashed, froze or otherwise required my intervention (aside from dirty disks from him handling it improperly).
And this is Win98, not even Win2K or XP which are considerably more stable.
I just don't get it. All you Linux experts that can take the time to learn a Unix-based system and administer it well can't keep a Windows box running. Guess what: IT'S NOT THE OS! I grant you the 9x versions are inherently less stable than Win2K or XP, but still, if they are crashing a couple of times a day, I'm fulling willing to say that 95% of the time it's YOUR OWN DAMNED FAULT!
Re:rebooting 4 or 5 times a week? (Score:3, Insightful)
At the same time, I take very good care of my machines. I keep them clean, make sure no rouge software is found on them, etc. Now maybe this is more time than some people are willing to put in, at the same time I've spent a good couple of hours trying to install Linux without stable success.
Now to the kids topic... i think a Mac OS is a good idea if you refuse to use Windows anymore. Their older software might not run (though i think it might under powerpc or whatever) and I know that Mac OS is a very user-friendly OS.
Re:rebooting 4 or 5 times a week? (Score:3, Informative)
Sometimes, it IS the OS' fault. And that says everything you need to know about Windows. If your Win98 computer isn't crashing, count yourself lucky instead of counting yourself skilled.
Here's an example. A few years ago I built a new machine. Installed Win98SE on it. The machine crashed constantly. I mean CONSTANTLY. I could boot it up, go to the bathroom, 2 minutes later find it frozen ON THE LOGIN SCREEN. I could open a document in Word, and it would freeze. This was true on a machine with the bare minimum install too, and this same machine was running Linux, NT, and Windows 95 without the same problems, so I don't think you could chalk it up to the hardware. So whose fault was that ? Finally, because my Win95 had no USB support and my games won't run under NT, I installed Windows ME, and my problems seemed to go away.
But the whole experience clearly shows how fragile is the Windows family. When someone tells ME their Windows (esp 95/98/Me) horror stories, I believe them, because I've used all of them to know they're very likely true.
Bad timing (Score:3, Insightful)
Its like with religion or politics, really young kids shouldn't just be indoctrinated in one side or the other just because thats what the parents prefer. Let them make their own un-pressured choices. Not to mention starting them off with Linux would probably set them back they'd have to use Wintel PC's at school or over at a friends house.
Re:Bad timing (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Bad timing (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, I disagree. Bring your kids up with what you believe in. When they're young, they'll follow along and soak it up. When they get old enough, they'll start to learn about alternatives and may want to explore them. This is where you as a parent should get out of the way.
- DDT
Re:Bad timing (Score:3, Insightful)
Absolutely correct. This is the only way religion can survive.
Do you believe in death after life?
Re:Bad timing (Score:5, Insightful)
it actually might be a fairly successful and worthwhile task to tackle. consider this:
back in the early 1900s and up to the present, though it's less prevalent today, a lot of children who were in american schools had parents who had immigrated from another country and were incapable of speaking english. they quite successfully learned to speak their parents' language at home, and english at school and with friends.
so here's my point: what's wrong with your children using linux/macos/etc. at home and another at school and other friends' houses? revolutions start small, don't they? just think how awesome it would be if your child were at a friend's house and said 'your computer can't do this? well mine can.' maybe it'd make someone else curious.
give credit where credit's due. kids are incredibly resilient (i'm learning this from my daughter as we speak). the more flexible and open you can keep them, even if it's by them using multiple OSes, the better off they'll be.
Re:Bad timing (Score:5, Interesting)
I have an 8 yr old bro and although he doesn't use a computer much, I always maintain one in his room for his use. I used to dual boot win98 and linux on his computer like mine (except mine dual boots w2k) so he can choose what he needs for the games he plays. Turns out, he used linux more often than the windows.
Eventually my "support" for his win9x became a nightmare and I just asked him point blank "do you need windows?" and his response was "no, I mostly use Linux".
The *Talk* - Circa: 2015 (Score:4, Funny)
Johnny: Well Dad... I was thinking... well I was going to... make my system dual-boot.
Father: Listen, I know it's tempting. When I was young that's something everybody did, because we didn't know any better. That was a naive time for the computer literate. People experimented with overclocking and case-modding, back before we knew how destructive it was. Now we have more information about that kind of thing and I don't want you to make the same mistakes I did.
Johnny: Ok Dad, I won't do it. Can I date girls though?
Father: Maybe we should have another talk, about computers and how girls feel about people that use them...
Careful... (Score:5, Funny)
A few ideas (Score:3, Informative)
If it is crashing then it's either bad drivers or a hardware problem. If you are using the default Windows XP drivers then it's almost certainly hardware related in which case Linux would be just as unstable.
Why not set the machine to dual-boot or try out one of the many CD-based Linux distro's to see how they get on for now without all the associated hassle if they have to revert back.
If they are happy with Linux and still wish to use Windows for the odd game then take a look at VMWare - yes it's more outlay but it will keep them happy for those games/apps they really want.
[)amien
Re:A few ideas (Score:3, Informative)
<uncontrollable laughter>
Have you actually used VMware for gaming? I have a dual P3 1.0 GHz with 1 GB of RAM and a GeForce 4 Ti 4400. SubSpace/Continuum [subspacehq.com], an old-school two-dimensional space shooter (easily gets 60 FPS on a Pentium II), peaked at 24 FPS on the above box under Windows 2000 inside VMware under Linux. And that's running at 640x480x8 with sound disabled. No way are you going to play Doom 3 inside VMware.
Don't force it on them. (Score:3, Insightful)
Old problem, new twist. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Old problem, new twist. (Score:5, Funny)
M@
Re:Old problem, new twist. (Score:4, Funny)
What she really means, is that she's looking for a guy just like you, but with tattoos, long hair and a motorcycle.
Ha! Good luck. (Score:4, Insightful)
Kids' websites tend to be about the same. I run Opera and Moz at home and when my brother comes to visit we often discover that his favorite sites -- all flash intensive with tons of cool intel/windows only games -- don't work so hot. We have the same problem with my Mac.
As for open office...i'd have to say that it's not as kid friendly as MS office, which is NOT kid friendly at all. No office suite is. I pine for the days of Bank Street Writer.
If your kids are under 12, you're probably going to meet a lot of resistance to your plan. I don't think it's worth it...especially since it's so easy to teach kids WHY linux is good when they're older. Young kids don't understand the value of a dollar nor the importance of freedom and until they do it's silly to force it on them. When they hit high school, then's where you spring your plan -- by getting them their OWN pcs, older machines running Linux, for school use.
Re:Ha! Good luck. (Score:5, Interesting)
Young kids understand what they are given the opportunity to learn. My 2-year-old knows what money is, and she knows that we have to buy things before we can take them out of the store. She knows where to put the item on the checkers counter, and at which point she will be able to handle the item again. That these things are bought with money shouldn't be difficult for her to understand, and if she hasn't figured it out already it's only because I prefer to be cashless.
Likewise, any kid that has been grounded or put in time-out knows the value of freedom. Relating it to software may not be a simple thing, but they already understand the basic concepts.
The whole "kid friendly software" thing is a straw-man. How many of us had kid friendly software when we were kids? Even the games I loved and played all the time would be considered kid hostile by todays standards, and yet I, a kid, had no problem using them.
Retraining is an adult issue, not a kid issue. Kids adapt quickly and easily, they have to; the bulk of their first 20 years is largely training and retraining.
No Linux, get an iBook... (Score:3, Insightful)
No parental filters; the kids get the vt100 (Score:4, Funny)
whatever you do .... (Score:3, Informative)
Disconnect the wiring on the reset and power switch. My 18 Month old has become a savvy button pusher. His ability to sneak in there and hit that power switch is uncanny. I tried locking my computer in an desk encloser which works, but now He knows how to climb up to my desk using a bar stool type chair and use his toes to hit the buttons. Well as far as useful advice I switched to windows 2000, It allowed me to have much control over who can use what programs it's stable and allows the auditing I desire. In reality linux wasn't practical because many of the games my 11 year old daughter would like to play dont work. If you like me had fantasies of your child loving programing as you did as a geeky kid forget it. They lost interest after the " hello world
Macromedia (Score:5, Informative)
Unfortunately, the Flash player for Linux [macromedia.com] is still at version 5. Not a huge problem, as most Flash apps are still compatible with 5, but it does mean that you will run into problems until they release an update.
Flash 6 for Linux (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.macromedia.com/software/flashplayer/spe cial/beta/ [macromedia.com]
It works great!
As for Shockwave, it works great if you install the Windows version with CodeWeavers CrossOver plugin.
Re:Flash 6 for Linux (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Macromedia (Score:4, Informative)
We keep track of Flash 6(MX) adoption rates across the board and won't switch development until it is supported by a very large percentage of visitors (90-95% or so, not entirely sure.. I'm an artist, not the techdev people). So for the sites of major players it (hopefully) won't be a problem, as they tend to lag behind a bit to allow people to catch up. We (and other sites) also offer alternate content for people without Flah, you can get to our site and do/see many things. However, since our content is comprised mostly of animation and games, Flash really is a must-have for kids. ^nA
Flash Player adoption rate (Score:3, Informative)
Dear Slashdot, (Score:5, Funny)
My question is: What distro would you recommend for a new-born? Does anyone here have experience teaching unix administration to infants?
A follow-up question:
I generally spend my time on the command line, but I could see how it might be a difficult concept for a child to grasp in its first few years, especially while its motor controls are still developing. (i.e. no touch-typing yet).
I guess I'd be willing to load down the old box with a gui, but the question is, which one?
I'm thinking KDE 3.0., but is there maybe a more lightweight desktop that could be more intuitive for a young child? Remember, it won't be able to read menu items for a few years, so an intuitive graphical interface is very important.
Any thoughts are welcome.
Command line is fine for a toddler... (Score:5, Funny)
Hey don't worry about it.
It may look like your 1 year old is pounding random sets of keys with her tiny fists, but she's really just typing Emacs key-sequences...
Actually my 9 mo. old loves my mac (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously, my iMac is the easiest way to put my baby to sleep... making it a wonderful investment!
Of course, he likes the light on the optical mouse and is always reaching for it and trying to chew on it... which is not a good thing.
I think it would be nice to have a simple rugged PDA type computer to use as a baby toy... it could play music with bright colors.. and run simple little games for toddlers.
Absurd. (Score:3, Insightful)
You may have incompatibility problems with old games now, but I can assure you that they are nothing compared to the problems you'll have trying to run them through Wine.
And what about when your kids go to school? Unless they attend one in a very small minority they'll be using a different platform and will be behind the other kids.
You want to save money? Don't buy any more games - use the Shockwave resources on the internet. And you'll be fine with XP for another five years at least.
Re:Absurd. (Score:3, Interesting)
No way! They'll be so far ahead that the teacher will just hand all the teaching over to them, and let them get the school over on Linux.
When we got our first computer, it was a really big and horrendous computer. But, contrary to what all my friends had, it couldn't play games. So, I started to program instead. The story was pretty much the same with the other geek in my class. Allthough most kids in my class quite soon would have the same equipment at home as they did at school, they would never catch up with the two of us who had to use harder equipment. Nor could the teachers.
The basic point here is that kids adapt and learn very fast, and few games, well, find something else that's cool, programming for example. And once they've learned some essential concepts, they can very well use any other system, including MS Windows. Like I did, they're just going to find it frustrating to use dumber systems.
Actually, my advice to this parent would be just to drop MS Windows. The kids will figure out cool things to do on Linux, you can bet on it. It may not be the same things they do now, but they'll be more creative.
Worth it? (Score:4, Informative)
Now there are many applications where Linux has some incredible advantage over Windows. Professional workstation use, server, power user desktop, multimedia playback (freevo/mplayer is very HTPC friendly...), but I'm not sure edutainment works in this area *if* you already have a licensed copy of Windows. There is no reason compelling you to upgrade to the latest and greatest MS, if Win98 worked fine, why buy XP? I think you'll find a lot of problems encountered during a three year old's use of a computer will happen regardless of the OS, and Wine will not likely meet your expectations as a full Windows replacement.
You can use free software with your Win98 (or XP, or 2000). OpenOffice doesn't require linux, and a lot of free applications now run under Windows.
Programming (Score:4, Informative)
If you first use the computer to use applications, then you will forever think the computer is a device for word processing, viewing web pages, and the like. As you learn more applications, you will think that the computer can do more, say allow you to layout pages, but you will miss the main point of the computer.
The computer is a tool. If the first thing you learn to do is code, you will see that the computer is a tool for processing input, and generating output. That's all it does, but it does it very, very well.
I have been in a classroom environment where we were told to make a change to a single spot in an entire web site (~70 pages). Out of 20 people in the room, 19 of them opened FrontPage, made the change, and repeated. I wrote a script and finished in 5% of the time. They used the computer for what they thought it was for, applications, and I used it for its real purpose, processing data.
Be careful... (Score:4, Insightful)
I think that, as you observed, since some things don't work as well as Windows, you'll have a problem if you try to get them converted.
My suggestion is to ensure that you can set up for them the majority of what they want, and then dual boot.
Make a point of never using XP yourself. Make sure you're seen in front of them running some really slick and attractive WM. With lots of shiney customizable things that can be tinkered with.
When they see you playing with it, they'll be interested. But if you put it in front of them and preach that "Its better! Its cheaper! Its magic sliced bread doohicky!" you won't get anywhere.
Let them have an account that'll let them do as much as possible that they could under XP, and let them tinker with it. They may tire of it, or they may be intrigued.
But either way, I bet you'll wind up with them learning less than if you tried to force them.
No, no, no, you've got it all backwards... (Score:5, Funny)
absolutely yes - my evil plan (Score:5, Funny)
Not only do I want to move my 2.9 year old daughter onto Linux, but I've told her that immediately after potty training, she is to learn a high level language, or at least SQL. She should also be able to install releases such as Mandrake and Lycoris.
Then in a few years, I fully expect her to be able to handle Java and
By the time she's 13 or 14, she should have assembler under belt. With this knowledge, she can and should be able to write device drivers.
On my side, my goal is to find a job telecommuting, while 'home-schooling' the kid - who's computer science assignments will be doing my work for me so I can pursue the life of leasure I so richly enjoy.
And if you believe all that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you
I dont think you'll have any problem (Score:3, Funny)
Boy, I couldnt even *read* at 3!!!!
I think you should be less worried about linux migration and more worried about your 3 year old taking over the world!
OS isn't the problem (Score:3, Insightful)
Your kids will probably hate you for switchign to linux. For all my trying (dont' make fun of me) www.cartoonnetwork.com is completely incompatible with any non-windows OS. You simply can't play cartoon orbit ctoons or gtoons without windows. I even tried a wine/mozilla combo that lied to the website and pretended to be IE. No dice.
Another solution is to get your kids a console gaming system. A new one. They will spend so much time playing that that they will use the pc less and less for those games that crash it and more and more for flash/web based stuff, messenging, and paper writing.
Linux is not your answer. It would be nice if it was, but it isn't.
Fantastic Idea (Score:3, Insightful)
I've often thought about how my own computer history affected my computer 'development', if you will. Personally speaking, my history is this:
- Osbourne (age 6-8)
- Commodore 64 (age 9-13)
- Commodore Amiga (age 13-17)
- and various Macs since.
I have a point here, stay with me. The earliest machines, the Osbourne and C64, had no GUI to speak of. If you really liked computers, and were technically inclined, you still had to dance circles to get the stupid C64 to do anything impressive. You had to learn the quirks, watching the behaviour of the disk drive LED (anyone remember that constant flashing red light? that meant BAD). In short, you had to really know what you were doing.
Amigas, too, just by virtue of the fact that it was the BeBox of the 80s. No support = gotta be resourceful.
If you could make those old computers do what you wanted to, consistently, then you basically had passed your trial-by-fire. You were a geek. More importantly, you were a geek that knew why computers act a certain way. The kicker is that you would really fly if given a computer that was half-capable. So, in moving your kids to Linux, you have an interesting experiment before you. If your kids are technically inclined, it might be one of the bigger favours you could do for their education. If not, however, I suggest you move them back - at least to a GUI - after a certain period of time. Some kids are nerds, some aren't. It's stupid to force a non-nerdy kid to compile stuff. If that kid happens to enjoy tinkering... you've opened up a whole new world, and possibly career, down the line.
I tried to install Linux on my son (Score:5, Funny)
why, why, why? (Score:5, Insightful)
I've noticed a lot of people saying "Well, I put Linux on my mom's computer," and now someone wants to make their kids use Linux?
Your kids might grow up to be great sysadmins if you do that. But if they're aren't computer lovers, your kids will just end up having an adversarial relationship with computers, and another generation of technophobes will be born.
While it's true that kids are flexible, and won't have much trouble figuring out the differences between the Windows or Mac they use at school and the Linux box at home, cutting your kids off from games, homework assignments, etc just because you like Linux so much is a bit of a rash decision. Don't you want the best for them?
Re:The author fascinates me (Score:3, Insightful)
A friend of mine had an accident which is a perfect answer to your question. His car fell into a reservoir. Water pressure from the outside was so strong he couldn't open the door. The water shorted his electric system and the windows stopped working.
He's a lucky guy. The water was shallow enough, so his car hit bottom before he drowned. Eventually, someone came and broke one of his windows with a stone.
Power windows are just like GUIs. People who have them feel superior to people who don't have them. But GUIs, just like power windows, stop working in conditions where hand cranks and consoles may save your life.
seperate games and net (Score:3, Interesting)
I have an old 400Mhz system that has Win98, that they use for games. It's off the network, it's just for games. CDRom goes in, CDRom comes out, nothing else needed.
Games often screw things up, and 4 years old are harsh on the system, so it's just easier this way. She trashes the system, I can just reinstall and nothing is lost but save game files.
The linux box is for web browsing, writing, instant messaging, etc. The older kids can use it, neatly sandboxed with their own user accounts (so they can also customize their log-ins). Since it can run anything (GAIM, Netscape, Shockwave, QuickTime, etc) they're happy. It has Office, is hooked up to the printer, all is well.
This works for me because then I don't have to administer two OSes. Really, only my Linux boxes have to be working as 'real computers', i.e. networked with printing and non-comes-with-the-OS-software.
Windows just hasn't been stable enough for me with anything other than games, when kids are toying with it. It's too easy for them to change settings for everyone. Rather than take the time hit to learn how to administer 2 OSes, I just administer the one I need to use myself (linux) and leave Win98 for offline gaming.
You could do the same by buying a console of some sort for gaming and having a linux box for real work.
Easy migration to Linux... (Score:5, Funny)
Well this is what I found... (Score:4, Informative)
Here's the problem... The schools TEACH windows and MS-Office.. the teachers do not care about abilities but Rote-memorization.. like "what menu is used to create a table in word" if you dont exactly follow what the teacher wants.. to get it wrong... doesn't matter if you were sucessful. add to this that sites like NICK.com and cartoonnetwork use alot of shockwave for the games.. that break under linux.
also, if your kids's friends use MSN chat or the other non friendly chat systems then those also break.. Yahoochat works fine for me under linux, but then I eliminate any chat apps for my daughter... there is no reason for her to get sucked into the chat addiction.. she can use the phone... and as for filtering... I blatently use Squid and a good blocker file. It's a transparent proxy, you cant get around it unless you hack it or hack my login on it.. and it is there to keep the HTML porn emails from forcing their way in front of my daughter's eyes on her email account. her account has only been used by friends of hers and as a login information for nick.com and cartoon network.. so one of those companies sold her email address to a spam list that was bought by some aisan porn sites.. nice... a blocking proxy is required, even when you supervise... porn adverts force themselves into our lives. and squid keeps them from being visible... at least the pictures...
The kids can translate to linux easily... It's just the education aspect and possible breaking of shockwave games that really keep my daughter from loving linux.
Been There, Done That (Score:5, Insightful)
OpenOffice works fine for all their school work, and they connect fine to the school's wireless LAN. They can connect to the shared drive in school to save work, thanks to Samba.
However, web sites are a different matter. Linux doesn't do Director so they all were pissed about not being able to do much with Nick.com, Disney.com, CartoonNetwork.com, etc. until I got them all CrossOver Plugin and installed the Shockwave Director plugins.
Fortunately RealPlayer, Xine and MPlayer are good enough for playing all media content. This will be 100% true when Mplayer makes the latest install easier and handle Quicktime Sorensen better.
Best kid's software (Score:5, Insightful)
The best computer you can give to your kids is one that powers on, boots, and doesn't do much else. Kids are really, really smart.
Why are you rebooting so often? (Score:3, Insightful)
This smacks of an installation problem, or something specific to your hardware. With Windows 2000 and Windows XP I've never had trouble like this. It's rock solid. I'd check all the usual culprits first, like video card drivers.
You might also consider turning off your computer at night and when the kids are at school, etc. With the amount of power a modern PC uses, it's always a win to turn it off when you're not using it for an extended period. (This used to be a point of debate, but no longer.)
parent = sysadmin? (Score:5, Interesting)
As others have pointed out, the truthful answer is to revert to Windows 98. So why even mention Linux?
What if you asked if they wanted to try out a different OS with different games? Then, install a copy of RH or Mandrake and all of the free games that come with it. Then, set up KDE/Gnome with the right age-appropriate menu for each kid. In this way, you will be using Linux's flexibility to give your kids a better user experience.
Also, what about investing in a bigger HD and copying the CDs to the drive so that your 3 y/o doesn't have to swap CDs and rely on autoload. You could even consider installing VMWare (or maybe Wine, if it turns out to work) so that your kids can go into Windows when/if they want.
Over time, each of your kids will develop preferences on which OS they like.
One caveat, however: One of the best ways to learn about computers is when they're not quite working 100%. Let your kids learn from this on their own. Sometimes, it may take a few hundred program crashes to motivate a kid to read a few HOWTOs.
Don't do it telecaster. (Score:3, Insightful)
The perfect kid rig is the newest version of IE, newest version of every macromedia plug-in and a tray full of closed source IM clients. Anything else is losing functionality.
Don't worry, they're just about old enough to start their first warez server and we all know the dirty open source road that leads down.
This guy's family portrait (Score:3, Funny)
If he starts his kids using linux, this is what his family portraits will look like!
The Linux Bunch [anders.fix.no]
COMPATBILITY MODE! (Score:5, Informative)
This comment is late in the discussion, and I know it probably won't get modded up because of that, but Windows XP has a great built-in solution to that problem. It's called Compatibility Mode.
If you right-click on the program icon, click properties, and click the Compatibility tab, you can tell Windows XP to run a program under "Windows 95 mode" or "Windows 98 mode." This makes the program think that it's running under an older version of Windows, so it (presumably) won't crash because of the new 2000/XP APIs.
Also, it sounds like you've made little effort to diagnose the crashes. Hey, if you want to learn Linux, and have your kids learn Linux, reading system logs is going to become necessary. Start with the syslog for XP. It's in Control Panel -> Administrative Tools -> Event Viewer. Look for any events in the System log around the time your computer was crashing.
I had a friend who was having major problems with XP. XP really doesn't crash that much on a good system. However, he was getting several BSODs a day. I asked him to look in his System log. Guess what it said?
"The driver has detected that device \Device\Harddisk0\DR0 has predicted that it will fail. Immediately back up your data and replace your hard disk drive. A failure may be imminent."
Um. Whoops.
System logs and Compatbility mode are your friends! I'm not trying to discourage you from running Linux, which I think you should at least check out, but you need to fix the problems you have with XP before you move to Linux. Don't go to Linux because "XP crashes" (it shouldn't crash unless you have a problem, which might show up in Linux as well) -- go with Linux because you like it better or it does what you need. In the meantime, troubleshot your XP box and try out compatibility mode -- they will make you a much happier camper.
Kids have few problems w/Linux (Score:4, Insightful)
I didn't really start using a computer until my freshman year at college; I started out using Windows 98. The following summer I installed Red Hat 6.2, and I ended up using it full time w/few complaints. Interestingly, all my friends who thought the change was "pretty hardcore" had all grown up using Windows. Since I had really nothing to switch from, the transition was pretty easy.
Since your children are all relatively young, I don't imagine Windows is the only language they'll ever be able to speak, so by all means let them use Linux while it's easy for them. If you want them to play their old games, then run a dual-boot until they outgrow that software, and just stop buying new versions of Windows!
Been there (Score:3, Funny)
It's just something that you have to be prepared for, if you go down this path.
How many times a week? (Score:3, Interesting)
Linux milestones (Score:4, Insightful)
You want to know why MS has a monopoly? You want to know why Linux isn't ready for primetime? Go back and read over the responses here. Even the most gung-ho Linux responses amounted to "This will be broken, these other things will require a lot of fiddling, some things may work, more or less, out of the box, and your children will be social outcasts because they don't use the same OS as everyone else."
Maybe our next milestone should be to make Linux kid friendly, where "kid" is NOT someone capable of recompiling and tweaking source code. A free alternative is a lot less compelling when it doesn't work as well as the paid options, and technical superiority amounts to a hill of beans when Linux is a painful experience for normal families.
Meanwhile, chalk me up on the "Keep using Windows" side. It's not exactly a case of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," but Windows is probably less broken than Linux in this situation.
MC
Progressive switch (Score:3, Informative)
Technically, I would repartition, keep a dual boot for a while, and start buying games for Linux. This will help them have a smooth transition. You can read a lot about the cons in other posts, but to me the big picture is: your kids can do their stuff in Linux. They just won't be able to use every possible game. But then again, if they are hardcore gamers, maybe a games console will do the job. For most other tasks, you should be golden with linux. And the legaci win* partition will help you in the few remaining cases. And by buying Linux stuff you will help it become more popular and in the end your family will be making a difference.
Re:Don't rely too much on WINE... (Score:5, Funny)
Are you crazy? Unless he gets the three year old started on Emacs now, there is no way his kid will know the key commands for it by college.
Re:Don't rely too much on WINE... (Score:4, Informative)
I personally suggest GNOME or IceWM for speed. Open Office or Abiword will work well with reports. Get the Mandrake Box Set and it comes with Star Office. Star Office has many templates and nice clipart. Most sites work fine with Mozilla, and again, the Box set comes with Flash plugins. Netscape6/7 is another possibility, though usually if the sites insists on that over mozilla, it is usually a so called security concern. GAIM will support pretty much every IM protocol out there.
Re:Math quiz (Score:4, Insightful)
Hmmm... the ages of the kids can be expressed as x, x+4, and x+8.
For x greater than 3:
x+4 mod 3 = x+1 mod 3
X+8 mod 3 = x+2 mod 3
Clearly, it's impossible for x, x+1, and x+2 to all NOT be divisible by three... The only way that x, x+4, and x+8 can all be prime is when x=3, which is kinda the "trivial" case.
There's no way to avoid hitting a multiple of three somewhere along the way.