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Linux Software

LindowsOS Softens Microsoft-Compatibility Claim 413

Posted by timothy from the wise-move dept.
jukal writes: "As seen originally at newsforge: On Friday we reported the appearance of Microtel PCs with LindowsOS pre-installed at Walmart.com. Then, Walmart.com and Lindows were claiming that LindowsOS 'delivers the stability of UNIX with the ease of Windows and the ability to run most Microsoft programs.' Today, that last phrase has gone missing and there is no more talk of running any programs designed for Windows, let alone Microsoft products"
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LindowsOS Softens Microsoft-Compatibility Claim More

LindowsOS Softens Microsoft-Compatibility Claim

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  • Did we.... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by nordaim ( 162919 )
    actually, honestly expect that phrase to last?

    I am surprised that the MS lawyers weren't over then in minutes.

  • How Long Before (Score:4, Insightful)

    by JohnHegarty ( 453016 ) on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @08:00AM (#3728367) Homepage
    "most Microsoft programs"

    How long before "most Microsoft programs" have little bits of code added to shot them working on anything but offical microsoft windows.. that really would be the end of lindows
    • They've done it before - remember Windows used to intentionally not run on top of DR-DOS...

      • sort of . . . (Score:2, Informative)

        by hawk ( 1151 )
        . . . that one's over stated--it was only a prerelease that did it (but it did it with encypted code, and wasn't proven until someone built a hardware debugger for the purpose).


        THat never made it into the shipping product. However, it was there in the prerelease sent out to reviewers, causing them to conclude that dr-dos wasn't yup the the task.


        THis was a factor in the half-billion dollar settlement . . . though I thought that trebling ten per cent of the current market would have been a more interesting remedy . . .


        hawk

    • "How long before "most Microsoft programs" have little bits of code added to shot them working on anything but offical microsoft windows.."

      "most Microsoft programs" have enough trouble running on official Microsoft Windows as it is.
    • Wouldn't matter if they did. What are they gonna do, change the bits every Service Pack? All that'll do is give Lindows incentive to figure out what they did and correct it. Given the release rate of SP's, that wouldn't be near as challenging as Trillian's attempts to stay on AOL's network.
    • How long before "most Microsoft programs" have little bits of code added to shot them working on anything but offical microsoft windows.. that really would be the end of lindows

      Try, "Most Linux programs won't run on Windows, Microsoft must be dying." Actually they are, but that's beside the point. Lindows might just be enough for most people. When they get tired of it or it has problems, we can be sure that someone will be good enough to put Debian on it. Oh yeah, that will kill Micrsoft. Oh well.

  • Quite similar actually (Score:4, Funny)

    by OpCode42 ( 253084 ) on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @08:00AM (#3728373) Homepage
    Promises one thing... delivers another. Its well on the way to MS territory already! ;)

  • A little too early (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Iscariot_ ( 166362 ) on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @08:01AM (#3728383)
    Is it just me, or is giving linux to the consumer this early a bad thing? I'm sure Lindows is great and all, but your average Joe buying a PC from wallmart for $700 is NOT going to want to run linux applications, much less deal with managing the OS. I still think linux (or in this case Lindows) has a long way to go.

    Am I wrong? Do people that buy PCs from walmart frequent this site?

    • Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ins0m ( 584887 ) <ins0mni0n&hackermail,com> on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @08:18AM (#3728483)
      No, I doubt many people who buy prepackaged comps from walmart actively follow /. However, what I do think is great is that the concept of linux is being offered right next to the Blue Light Special on aisle 5. Seriously, even if the "W" word is missing from the current marketing campaign, the fact remains that the hybrid-ish OS is widely available to people who may never have heard of *nix, or may have only heard of it in context with the "geek" community.

      So long as Lindows remains in that sort of distribution circle, I have a feeling that more people are going to gain exposure, and even if touted as interoperable with most MS programs, most people only care about surfing websites, word processing, and gaming. So long as Lindows can perform with Win* on that regard, they should be fine; if the comparable cost of a PC pre-installed with "L" vs. "W" is low enough, it should be a success.

      Hell, people may just be excited when they see that their fav porn sites pop up quicker. But for a moderate linux user (freebsd is my fav. os), I find that Mandrake is not hard to install or configure; anything easier than that will definitely have a mass consumer base. It's just a matter of keeping it on the shelves; I applaud the move of removing "Windows" from their promo, so long as they aren't going to get hosed for name-brand recognition entirely by doing so.

      • Re:Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)

        by jonadab ( 583620 ) on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @10:29AM (#3729374) Homepage Journal

        I concur.

        This is a good thing. Most people have very vague notions about what Windows and Microsoft even are; the advertising campaigns have some of them believing that it's an important part of computing, but only because all computers seem to have these buzzwords "Windows" and "Microsoft" attached to them. Exposure to the idea that computers don't need these buzzwords is a good thing.

        In terms of user experience, users want to do a few simple things:

        • Send and receive email, without understanding anything about how email works. When someone sends them an image attachment, they want it to just display for them, and have a clearly visible "print" button. They also want to be able to exchange inane animated greeting cards (the ones spammers deploy to collect email addresses), so they'll need the Flash plugin. But they don't have even the foggiest notion what a "plugin" is, and they shouldn't have to.
        • Print stuff out. This means mostly pictures, bog-standard word-processing documents (letters, resumés, garage sale signs, ... nothing complicated), and the kind of thing people used to use Print Shop for in the 80s (mostly inane greeting cards with cheesy clip art, but these days they want to do this in color; banners are also popular). Printing pictures is no problem. Word Processing is no problem; Open Office is serious overkill for these people. The thing that remains in this category is the cheesy greeting-card/certificate/banner printing package, and I've discovered that people will crawl over broken glass to do this stuff. The software can be _horrific_ (a la Print Artist) and they'll _LOVE_ it. Quality is not necessary, and ease of use is really not important either, as long as it will let them insert stupid clip art and style bits of text with shadow and outline effects and stuff, and give them prefab templates to modify. Currently I don't know of a Linux app that fits this bill, but maybe that's because I wasn't looking.
        • Surf the web. This shouldn't be a problem. I've been deploying Mozilla for a while now at a public library, where the people who use it have no PC at home and know virtually nothing, and Mozilla works fine; I get very few complaints, and those I do get have to do with printing or with the difficulty of navigating certain sites.
        • Play silly little games. Not a problem. Give em a dozen kinds of Solitaire, Gnome Mines, Iagno, and a handful of others, and they'll be happy playing them quite literally forever. (Yes, there are also people who want cool games, new games, 3D shooters, and such, but those people are younger and know more about computers.)
        • That's pretty much it. Most people don't know they can do more than this with computers.

        I'm glad Wall-Mart is no longer claiming that LindowsOS runs most MS programs. Lindows was not ready for that claim. But Linux *is* ready, or very close to ready, for the consumer desktop, as long as it comes preinstalled and preconfigured. I worry just a little about the silly-greeting-card thing... developers don't do such inane things, and I don't know whether anyone has put together a Print Artist equivalent for Linux.

    • Re:A little too early (Score:4, Insightful)

      by morgajel ( 568462 ) on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @08:38AM (#3728613)
      users come in waves. think of us as explorers, and these people as a wave of settlers. they don't know what they hell they're doing, but they're pretty sure there's a better life out there, and they're willing to try it.

    • Re:A little too early (Score:5, Informative)

      by rseuhs ( 322520 ) on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @09:32AM (#3728933)
      You are wrong.

      PCs preloaded with Lindows are not replacing Windows-preloaded PCs (or well, not primarily), they replace OS-free PCs that Walmart already sells for quite some time.

      Lindows-PCs are perfect for those tasks IMO:

      • People who want to put their own OS on it (either an existing or pirated copy of Windows or Linux or something else)
      • PCs used only for email, web and simple office stuff. Yes, I do think that it's ready for grandma, too. It's preloaded after all and I assume they test their hardware against it, too.
      • PC terminals. For example at our universtity, there are tens of PCs used for administrative purposes (students can subscribe to courses, exams etc.) and all those PCs ever do in their whole livetime is run one browser-window that shows the institute's website. The only reason why those PCs currently run IE/Windows is because it was preinstalled.
      • Yes also *gasp* people who want to check out Linux and don't want to mess much with installation. The cheapest LindowsPC costs as much as a full retail copy of Windows XP pro. (300$) Hell, why not?

      Lindows costs not much if anything, I don't see a complelling reason NOT TO put it on PCs that would otherwise be sold without an OS.

    • One thing you seem to be ignoring is the fact that it's preinstalled. That removes most of the barrier of entry for the Linux newbie. I expect that the Lindows folks have chosen apps that are easy to use, and they do exist, believe it or not. As for managing the OS, the sad truth is the vast majority of people buying prebuilt PCs from Walmart aren't going to do any OS management, regardless of the OS installed, and I don't mean that in an "only dumb hicks shop at WalMart" kind of way. Most people in general don't manage their OS, they use and abuse it until it gets so cluttered up that it can no longer support its own bloat. That said, though, as far as updates and such, there are Linux distros whos update tools far surpass anything MS has offered so far. SuSEs YOU comes to mind here, and I hope Lindows has taken a hint from them.

      I see it as a 50/50 thing. About 50% will only care about surfing the web and getting their email, and so will probably never care that they aren't running Windows. The other 50% will be perfectly happy until they discover that their new Hallmark Greeting Card Maker won't work. On the hardware end, I think printers will be the sticking point, as Linux support for cheap printers is still pretty sketchy. This could be averted, though, if these PCs come with printers. Does anyone know?

      • "The other 50% will be perfectly happy until they discover that their new Hallmark Greeting Card Maker won't work...."

        Just imagine when they pick up their new PC, then walk over to the software aisle and pick up a few things....
        • Just imagine when they pick up their new PC, then walk over to the software aisle and pick up a few things....

          I must not go PC shopping with people often enough, because I've never seen anyone do that without a salesperson leading them to it. If a WalMart salesperson is doing that, well, WalMart deserves the fallout that comes from that.

          The real question is; how does Apple deal with this situation? They seem to have dealt with this problem just fine for many years now. Perhaps it isn't as much of a problem as everyone is making it out to be?

    • Is it just me, or is giving linux to the consumer this early a bad thing?

      It's just you. ;-) Actually, giving Linux to consumers may be either good or bad, depending on what the consumer expects to do with it.

      As an example, Tivo gave Linux to consumers years ago, and it was just fine. Not too early for Linux.

      If grandma wants a computer to surf the net, email her grandkids, and write the occasional letter, it's not too early for Linux.

      If someone needs a server up and working easily and quickly, it's not too early for Linux.

      If someone needs to take their work home from the office, and their work is stored in a closed Microsoft-only format, then it's probably be too early for Linux, depending on how you feel about OpenOffice or Lindows or CrossOver's compatability and performance.

      If someone needs to play the latest Windows games that require DirectX 8.1 and the game uses an obscure method to detect the version of DirectX installed, along with copy protection, IPX networking, and a few other things that the latest version of WineX doesn't have, then it's too early for Linux.

      It's too hard to generalize about whether it's too early for Linux. Linux advocates shouldn't take that too hard, though: the situation with MS Windows is just as iffy. :-)

      And don't forget that just because it isn't too early for Linux for some particular use, doesn't mean that Linux is the right choice. (Perhaps OpenBSD belongs on that server instead of Linux. Consider a Mac if you write a lot of letters. Run MS Windows (even if Wine runs your apps) if you're going to be doing tech support for Windows users.)

    • I've bought Walmart PCs before. Not because I was particularly impressed with them or anything, but when I'm building a cheap server box (i.e. nothing mission critical or anything) I can buy one from Walmart for about the same price as I can build it with the same hardware, except I don't have to worry about shipping 8 different pieces of hardware from 8 different online vendors. The quality is not phenomenal, but if you just need a web/ftp server, they're very decent machines for a fair price.

  • is this a suprise? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by T.Monk ( 585143 ) on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @08:02AM (#3728394)
    i mean seriously, there's no way they could've gotten away with that kind of campaign.. MS would've tied them up in litigation just for using the word windows with a capital W until their money ran out and they went bankrupt. On the good side, Wal-mart isn't really afraid of Microsoft, so Wal-mart is in the unique position of being able to weather MS's wrath and make an offering of something like Lindows... now if we could just get them to package something decent like a BSD variant and KDE3, and build the computer out of lots of translucent brightly colored plastic, we might have some appeal. Go after that Mac market!

    • Re:is this a suprise? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by analog_line ( 465182 ) on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @09:04AM (#3728759)
      Sorry, we Mac users already have a highly functional, highly stable, and highly usable UNIX operating system that comes free when you buy the machine, that also happens to run most free software (beer or speech) you might want to use.

      Thanks for drinking Coke. Play again.
      • Macintosh hardware is priced so that it can cover the cost of R&D in software development as well as hardware development. They offer the software for free as an incentive to buy the hardware.

        -Erik
      • Amen. Although I'm a Windows user through and through (ditched Linux about a year after Win2K came out), I'd say the most compelling "Unix on the Desktop" for me right now is a MAC. As I'm looking at relatively lame PC laptops, the TiBook is looking very attractive!

      • When Apple's $300 OSX box comes out, I'll be first in line to buy one. Until then, I'm afraid JQP is stuck with commodity HW and free SW. Guess he'll survive somehow.

  • Kinda better wording actually. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by MarvinMouse ( 323641 ) on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @08:07AM (#3728416) Homepage Journal
    I think the new wording is better, and perhaps a bit more accurate for two reasons.

    1. It doesn't accidentally promote windows products or even microsoft products. It lets you know that Lindows is a completely new OS, but it "delivers the stability of Linux with the ease of Windows." As well, it now lets you know that instead of having to return to the old Windows products, which were known to be buggy. There are new products made specifically for Lindows that will fit your needs (Which may or may not be buggy, but there is the chance that they aren't). This is the first really good reason for the change, because now a new user will feel that instead of just getting another computer like the rest of the world, he's riding the wave of a "exciting new OS". :-)

    2. As well, now it is more accurate. Originally it used a lot of terms making it appear as though Lindows was a UNIX operating system, when it is really a Linux one. This would deter customers since UNIX has a sorta connotation of difficulty to it for newbies (who have just kinda heard of it from users who just touched it and saw commands like egrep, col, ls, and wc ;-), but Linux doesn't have as difficult of an aura around it. Thus, it is more accurate, and also more likely to sell to the ordinary computer user.

    To be honest, their new wording is considerably better then the old one. IMHO.
    • I also like the new wording because it keeps people from buying a Microtel box at WalMart and then saying Lindows/Linux is a piece of shit, it doesn't even work like they said. The people who are buying these machines are likely to take their frustration to work, to their social circles, etc. I'd much rather hear these people saying "Linux is really neat but you can't run most of the software at CompUSA" than "Linux doesn't do anything it is supposed to."
      • however the people buying this most likely don't know much and will think that it is supposed to run "computer programs" that they bvuy at compusa. when they find out it doesn't run windows programs (even though it did not claim to" they will get angry. i met a guy that was pissed because his mac couldn't open an "exe file" correctly.
        • And yet the Mac still exists, because most people *aren't that thick*, and like pretty things.

          Let's not get hung up about the "stupid" tail of the normal distribution curve. They will always be with us, and neither mocking them nor pandering to them will get us anywhere.

          Maybe a few people will like LindowsOS for what it is. Maybe some will learn what's heinous about it and switch to Debian or Mandrake once they are confident enough. But if 99% of the purchasers get fed up with LindowsOS and revert to Windows, so what?
          • it's not just switching to windows. if lots of dumbasses get ahold of these machines and start talking to other people not in the know, lidows, and indirectly linux, will get a reputation for not doing what it is supposed to do. for not operating correctly. I can see uninformed mainstream media covering this in the near future, and even some uninformed people starting a class action suit against walmart or the lindows people, simply because they do not understand how thier computer works.
    • Clearly, the wording had to go. They were setting themselves up for all sorts of trouble by trying to make the PC look like it was running some kind of "Free Windows"

      What I'd love to see is some kind of mass market push for a Linux system that is actually better than Windows for the users. The issue is really compatibility, as many newbie Mac users know when they get files from their Windows chums which won't launch on their machines.

      The moves are already there anyway. Having too high a %age of one OS is always going to be bad for cross platform compatible programs, since everyone is just *expected* to run Windows, as many of my clients gasp when I tell them I can't open their email because I run Linux on my desktop. People have cussed me for this, but until people like you and me take a stand then it's no good moaning that Linux doesn't support x, y or z. I can get good documents to clients, I can use open standards, and I will continue to do so. Linux doesn't need to be Windows binary compatible, and it has many advantages over Windows in terms of networking tools. I get all my software for free, learn way more, and have only about 5% time overhead for cross-platform tasks, whereas I save time with software like mutt, Opera, Apache and GIMP because I don't need the additional functionality of IE, Photoshop and Outlook. I'm not even going to gripe about Office suites. I do fine with Star Office and HTML as basic tools.

    • This would deter customers since UNIX has a sorta connotation of difficulty to it for newbies (who have just kinda heard of it from users who just touched it and saw commands like egrep, col, ls, and wc ;-)

      Most people's only exposure to UNIX is that scene in Jurassic Park where the little girl says "This is a UNIX system. I know this", and proceeds to use the mouse to fly over a 3D virtual-reality file system.

  • The Full Phrase (Score:3, Informative)

    by sehryan ( 412731 ) on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @08:08AM (#3728421)
    Since the link is broken in the article, the full phrase is:

    "The low cost alternative to computers preloaded with Microsoft Windows. These PCs ship with an exciting new Linux based Operating System (OS) named Lindows. This exciting new OS delivers the stability of Linux with the ease of Windows and they include a trial membership to a library of over 1,000 software programs so they can be outfitted for any purpose whether business, home, or entertainment."

    The link [walmart.com]

  • Broken link (Score:4, Informative)

    by ezs ( 444264 ) on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @08:08AM (#3728422) Homepage
    http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/06/18/1344258.sh tml?tid=23 [newsforge.com]

  • The phrase in question (Score:3, Informative)

    by Wingchild ( 212447 ) <brian.kern@gmail.com> on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @08:08AM (#3728423)
    Found here [walmart.com],

    Lindows is an exciting new Linux based Operating System (OS). This exciting new OS delivers the stability of Linux with the ease of Windows. These computer systems are a perfect low cost alternative to computers preloaded with Microsoft Windows.

    Correct as written - there's no phrase explicitly about being able to run Windows applications. ..but is it sinister? Or just a precursor step to keep Microsoft from bashing the living hell out of any merchant agreement they might have?

  • The Real Reason is... (Score:5, Funny)

    by idfrsr ( 560314 ) on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @08:09AM (#3728428)

    It will run "most Microsoft programs"....

    The phrase had to be removed, because not even Windows can run "most Microsoft programs".

  • Claim was out there (Score:5, Funny)

    by Erasmus Darwin ( 183180 ) on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @08:17AM (#3728478)
    Linux emulation of Windows is making some impressive strides, but we all know that claim was a bit out there. Hell people commented on it back in the original story. John Q. Enduser wouldn't have been happy when his random, off-the-shelf Windows software didn't run on his new Lindows box.

    And yet despite that, we've already got plenty of people raising the possibility that it's due to evil legal manuevering by Microsoft. Sometimes I wonder just how paranoid some of the Slashdotters out there really are.

    (Disclaimer: I'm secretly receiving money, women, and youth rejuvenation treatments from Microsoft in exchange from posting pro-Microsoft comments here. I've also been instructed to bribe both RMS and Linus into joining our organization.)

  • Why was this posted in the Linux category? This has more to do with Microsoft than Linux.
    • "Why was this posted in the Linux category? This has more to do with Microsoft than Linux.

      The Linux Community should pay very careful attention to what's going on here with Walmart. They could learn a few things. Here's two reasons why Linux users should care:

      1.) It means that Walmart doesn't think that Linux is ready for entry-level consumers unless it behaves like Windows. The fact that they're shipping Lindows with it shows that Walmart is looking for a viable solution. Heck, this sort of thing could have made me a Linux user not too long ago.

      Linux is still very much a niche product. If the Linux community wants it to be more proliferated, then they need to start getting Linux software on the shelves at Walmart. Once that starts happening, then Walmart will feel at ease with selling machines sans-MS. I mean think about it, Walmart has computers to sell but no software on the shelves for it...

      2.) It shows that there is a need in the marketplace for machines w/o the MS tax. Linux users should be very happy about that. It means that one day we may be able to buy a Laptop without an OS. I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't mind saving $500 (most of the big companies ram Office down your throat too...) on my new laptop.

      This is an opportunity for Linux, and bad news for MS. The Linux community'd do good to make as an impressive of showing as possible. If Walmart gets tons of returns because people feel like they have the ugly duckling OS, then who knows when that opportunity will show up again?
  • Does anyone know if they make the sourcecode available online and if so where? Under the GPL they could probably make it available "upon request", but I hope they're being nicer about it than that.
    • my understanding has been, they only need to make the source code disks availiable to those who bought the product.
      • There are two ways you can meet the minimum requirements of the GPL:

        1) Give the source to everyone you give the program to.

        2) Provide the source to all third parties for at least three years and for a fee no greater than the cost of making the copy.

        Under 1), there is no requirement to provide the source code to third parties. Under 2) you may even charge to cover the cost of making and shipping the copies. No where is there a requirement that source be made freely available over the Internet.
    • Sourcecode for the changes they made to KDE can be found at http://net2.com/lindows/source/ As for the changes to wine they seem to have submited them all to the main wine tree, at least the says so in

      http://net2.com/lindows/source/AboutTheseSourceFil es.txt

      "Specifically, there are no WINE source code mods here, because ALL of our WINE changes (even those changes we made when WINE was X11) have been submitted for inclusion to the main LGPL wine tree. Pretty much all of our changes were accepted and are currently in wine. Lindows.com currently does all their development on the LGPL wine tree, submitting all our changes back."

    • I can't find source code, but I found this in their faq [lindows.com]:

      Question: Can I allow my friends to have a copy of any software I obtain?

      Answer: The Lindows.com Insider program is designed to be exclusive to the individual that signs up. As an Insider member, we ask that you not distribute copies of the LindowsOS to other individuals and that you abide by the end user license agreement that comes with our software.

      I wonder exactly what that end-user license agreement says... doesn't sound very GPL-ish to me.

  • more accurate, but death for sales (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dirk ( 87083 ) <dirk@one.net> on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @08:24AM (#3728520) Homepage
    The new wording is more accurate, but not stating it runs Windows apps will be a killer for many sales. This box is meant for Joe Enduser, who probably has never heard of Linux, and thinks Windows is the greatest OS around. All he really cares is if Word, Quicken, and Quake 3 will run on it. Most users don't want thousands of applications, they want the 2 or 3 they use. While this is a great line for geeks, that isn't the market for the PC. I predict this line of PCs will last about 4 months before they are pulled or have Windows put on them unless the marketing is changed ASAP.
  • Between the initial announcement and now, surely the masses must have flocked to Wallmart to get their Lindows machine. By now, all these guys will be wondering, "Wait a moment, this looks like Windows, sounds like Windows, doesn't work like windows and cannot run my Windows apps, err, ..... (silence)"

    You get the idea 8-)

  • do you still run it as root [lindowsos.info] in the default installation? If so, it loses a key advantage over windows: stability and safety.

  • Why Lindows? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Zenex13 ( 584549 )
    As some other people said, selling Lindows can be damaging to the public image of Linux. Maybe it won't be that damaging, or maybe many people won't buy it, but it will be a little damaging. I think they would do a much better job using a easy-to-use distro, like Mandrake or Lycoris, simplify it so they don't confuse users (remove GNOME or KDE, etc), and bundle it with CrossOver Office. That way, they could market the fact that it runs Word, Excel, and Powerpoint (crossover doesn't run Outlook and Access very well), and also market the fact that its Linux.

  • Walmart woes (Score:4, Funny)

    by gad_zuki! ( 70830 ) on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @09:05AM (#3728771)
    "I know a genuine Panaphonics when I see it. And look, there's Magnetbox, and Sorny!"

    Anyone consider the fallout from this when a few hundred Walmart shoppers rant about how Linux is a cheap rip-off of Windows? Lindows may end up being a huge propaganda loss for Linux.

  • Then why? (Score:4, Informative)

    by mshiltonj ( 220311 ) <mshiltonj@gmail . c om> on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @09:06AM (#3728775) Homepage Journal
    If Lindows is not windows compatible, then what are users paying for? Why not just put Mandrake (or other desktop-friendly distrib)?

    Lindows (tm)
    "Our name sounds like Windows and starts with an 'L'. We are clever."
    • Because it's a nice way to sell computers without having to raise the price for the OS and without being accused by Microsoft to provoke people to install pirated copies on their machines. Even if they will do so anyways once they find out that Lindows does not run their favourite Windows program...
      • DaneelGiskard writes: Even if they will do so anyways once they find out that Lindows does not run their favourite Windows program...

        A strange twist of fate might be if the hardware on the Wal-Mart computers do not have drivers for WinXX, only Lindows.
    • obviously the fact that "Mandrake" does not sound like Windows.

      Remember, this OS is targeted at people who are normally running Windows. They are not the most saavy bunch. Lindows sounds safer to them than Mandrake.

  • Click 'N Run Warehouse -- $99/year for GPL apps (Score:5, Informative)

    by jaaron ( 551839 ) on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @09:23AM (#3728865) Homepage
    If you read the article or check Lindow's site you'll notice the part about they're Click 'N Run warehouse. With a $99/year membership you can get any software out of it you want. When you buy Lindows you get three free downloads to start.

    The whole Click 'N Run Warehouse confused me when I first read about it. $99 a year to download essentially GPLed applications? If you check the warehouse, you'll notice most of the applications there are the sort that you'll usually find included in any large distrobution. Everything from gcc to OpenOffice is there. Now why in the world would you pay $99 a year to access applications that are already free? Well, that was my question, so I emailed Lindows and they responded promptly saying that: (1) Lindows is a debian based distro, so you can download .debs and install them yourself, (2) you can of course get the tools to make the software yourself from source, or (3) you can get it from the warehouse. Now why would you want to do that? Because it's "one click and you're up and running." No worry about configuration or install scripts. Considering this, I think Lindows is justified in charging for the software since they really are adding something of value (convenience) to the end user. Linux geeks can still install the software the old fashoned way too.
    • That's an interesting business model. I bet they let WalMart have the install for free, or possibly at cost (if manuals are included -- beyond the advertisements). Then they offer to sell all this software to people at really cheap prices. Yeah, it's free software, but:
      1) These people don't know how else to get it
      2) They make it really easy
      3) They give away free samples

      So people actually end up paying them $99 over cost for each machine sold. Whee!

      And people said there was no way to make money off of GPL software!
      :-)

  • Licensing (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Moderation abuser ( 184013 ) on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @09:26AM (#3728886)
    Check the license requirements on your Windows software. You may well find that you are *not licensed* to use it on anything but a Microsoft Windows operating system.

    • Re:Licensing (Score:4, Insightful)

      by gorf ( 182301 ) on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @12:04PM (#3730120)

      License? What license? I don't recall ever signing an license...

    • You may well find that you are *not licensed* to use it on anything but a Microsoft Windows operating system.

      You assume that Microsoft EULAs are completely enforceable. Don't be so sure of that. To be enforceable, a contract must be legal, and as alienw mentioned [slashdot.org], monopolistic product tying isn't. In addition, a contract must require both parties to give something up, such as money or rights. (In legalese, this is called "consideration.") In the United States, a EULA doesn't give the user any rights that 17 USC 117 [cornell.edu] and other applicable law doesn't already give the user.

      Where's the beef? In particular, where's the consideration that would validate an agreement forbidding a user from using a Microsoft Windows application with LindowsOS or any other Wine distribution?

  • Uhm takin' this thang back ta Wal-Mart. Sheeit!

  • Lindows: Going Nowhere Fast (Score:3, Interesting)

    by asv108 ( 141455 ) <asvNO@SPAMivoss.com> on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @09:35AM (#3728950) Homepage Journal
    When Lindows was first announced, I thought it could be promising, but they took everything that is great about Linux and through it down the drain. Robertson is basically taking the MS approach towards software but doing under the reputation of Linux. One of the many reasons why people are moving to Linux is that their afraid of M$'s push towards a subscription model. Lindows should be capitalizing on this instead of trying to apply it to Linux. Lindows has some good ideas but the website is full of bullshit marketing claims that make Oracle ad's look trustworthy.

    Probably the worse course of action Lindows has taken so far is ignoring the development community that has made Robertson's 1/2baked idea possible. I especially love the idea of repackaging OSS programs and charging for them. Great model guys, let me know when you will be auctioning off your equipment and office furniture.


  • I cannot find a way to download the OS from the site without signing up for the $99 membership.

    They are selling GPL software, are they not compelled to have a free download available?
    • ... are they not compelled to have a free download available?
      No, that's not what the GPL says. The GPL imposes no requirement, in general, that you make the source code available for public download. If you distribute binary-only copies, then you have to provide a written offer to make the source code available to purchasers.

      If Lindows ships with the source included (or if they provide some other means to get it for the cost of distribution), then they have no obligation to make it available for free download. They can charge $1M for downloads if they like. Of course, people who bought Lindows can make it available for download, at whatever cost they like.

      That being said, I have no idea whether Lindows includes the source or not.

    • Absolutely not. An imprecise summary of the GPL rules --

      1. Don't take credit for what you didn't do.
      2. If you provide somebody a binary, you have to provide the source to them as well (if they ask) for a nominal fee (at most).
      3. If you received software under the GPL, and you redistribute it, you must provide them the same rights and obligations you received.
    • Common misconception if I am not mistaken. You are allowed to sell GPL software all you want. However, you cannot stop people from redistributing it. So, if your friend buys Lindows, you can install it on as many computers as you want, legally under the GPL. Also, they are required to provide access to the GPL'd source.

      Lindows may also employ proprietary parts that are not directly linked in with the GPL parts of the code, and Lindows is not required to release that freely or with source at all, assuming it isn't GPL'd.

      Then again, I'm not a GPL expert.
  • I'm sure glad they cleared up that ambiguous full term by parenthetically including the unambiguous abbreviation.
  • From the article:
    After that the users are encouraged to sign up to access the thousands of applications available in the warehouse for $99

    Yup, all the stability of Linux with all the sense you are getting screwed we've come to appreciate from Windows. Excuse me, but paying $99 to have access to free software is just a little ridiculous. Basically seems like they are taking advantage of people who don't know any better. Nice business model, eh?

  • Why doesn't Lindows just say... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Codifex Maximus ( 639 ) on Wednesday June 19, 2002 @11:19AM (#3729740) Homepage
    will run Certain Certified Microsoft Programs.

    I agree that running as root is a Bad Thing(tm). However, the vast majority of people are still running Win9x so it's not a tremendous stretch.

    I agree that Lindow's policies can alienate some users. However, the target market is composed of people who largely would not have ever tried Linux anyway. (Let em get thier feet wet!) So... getting Linux into thier hands will at least expose them to it and maybe garner a few more users for Linux. They will probably graduate from Lindows to a more mainstream Linux distro.

    Not exposing these potential users to Linux is a You get Nothing from Nothing proposition. Exposing them to Linux will generate a larger userbase. It's guerilla marketing sort of but... maybe it'll have a long term positive effect. We already know it's gonna have a short term negative effect.

    Bottom Line: Many users want to be spoonfed.

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