Mandrake Policy Change Angers Users 246
phalse phace writes "Yahoo! News is carrying a ZDNet News article which reveals that Mandrake has decided to change its policy regarding its Mandrake Club. Previously, Mandrake stated that all membership levels would enjoy the same benefits. But since Mandrake Linux 8.2 will include StarOffice 6.0 and Sun is charging for it, they decided to only allow the download of SO 6.0 to Silver members and higher."
OpenOffice? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:OpenOffice? (Score:3, Insightful)
Perhaps its because (Score:4, Interesting)
Why include open office? Business users dont want Open Office they want STAR OFFICE.
People complain when Mandrakesoft is too fair, then they complain when Mandrakesoft does the same thing Redhat and everyone else is doing.
People, subscribe, or shut up.
Re:Perhaps its because (Score:2, Interesting)
well, you are just speculating and talking straight out of your ass. how many business users want something outside of MS Office? In my actually experience (which you seem to have none) it's almost nobody.
telling people to shut up or subscribe is plain idiotic. how about those subscribed thinking they were getting one thing than it gets changed later?
Yeah, I mean why would anyone ever use linux anywa (Score:2)
I mean no businesses use linux. Why would anyone need staroffice
Security (Score:2)
Some people dont want word macro virii. Some people dont want their entire network hacked, taken down, etc by word.
The same reason people shouldnt use outlook and IE is why people shouldnt use Word. Security.
You forgot a few biggies (Score:2)
Some people don't want the world to read their revisions, deleted opinions of clients and competition, random snatches of conversation that happened to be lying around in memory.
Some people don't want to be tracked either by document IDs or by their software calling home.
Some people don't want to be locked in to an endlessly escalating software rental deal.
Some people don't want to use software produced by a convicted but essentially unrepentant criminal organisation, one successfully prosecuted on many occasions for crimes like software piracy, lying and cheating - to say nothing of monopolisation.
Re:OpenOffice? (Score:4, Informative)
e.g. the Adabas database is missing because it was licensed from a 3rd party, which didn't agree to open the code.
While OpenOffice is preferrable for most things,
there are a couple of people who need StarOffice until
there are free replacements for the missing parts.
Re:OpenOffice? (Score:3, Insightful)
While PostgreSQL and MySQL may be technically superior, none of them
provides an easy to use database editor yet, especially not if
you don't have a privileged account in the db ("create database").
(Think of M$ converts looking for a replacement to M$ Access).
There are some projects to provide an easier frontend for PostgreSQL and/or MySQL,
but none of them are really ready for prime time yet.
Re:phpMyAdmin (Score:2)
creating tables and inserting data, does it?
Unfortunately, for a majority of users
"if it can't be done by point and click, it can't be done".
Re:phpMyAdmin (Score:2)
The comment was that if you installed phpAdmin you would be ready in five minutes.
First phpAdmin would require more complex installation either of the PHP runtime or a web server.
Second you need to configure it and get it running
And then you need to get a browser to look at it.
I can just imagine a user... "But all I wanted to do was add a couple of records"
Re:OpenOffice? (Score:2)
That's not the issue... (Score:2, Insightful)
Users who joined at $60 per month did so under the explicit statement that "all members enjoy the same benefits". Now that's been changed to include the word "almost". If Mandrake chooses to make this change, I hope that they keep existing users who joined prior to the rule change with the same benefits.
The club is a reasonable idea to attempt to increase revenue at a time they really need it [linux-mandrake.com] and to simultaneously provide something unique and useful to their enthusiast user base. I can understand this change, but it needs to be communicated clearly to existing members. I hope it won't affect those members who already joined at the lowest rate.
I joined the Mandrake club at the Silver level and I also purchased the discounted ProSuite (which I would not normally have done) in order to support Mandrake. The users who joined at the standard level deserve to receive what they were promised, plain and simple. It's just a matter of principle.
- Leo
Re:OpenOffice? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:OpenOffice? (Score:2)
restriction of linux distros (Score:1)
Seems Logical (Score:5, Insightful)
The people who subscibed to Mandrake club did it because they want to support the distro, so I guess they'll do the math and understand that it just isn't possible to give them StarOffice.
Anyway, OpenOffice is not very different from StarOffice, and it's available for free, so what's the big deal?
Re:Seems Logical (Score:5, Insightful)
Thats a logical business plan, make people pay more money by offering incentives.
Businesses want open office.
Free doesnt make money (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course Mandrake isnt going to be free. People have to pay for the development. The clubs are just the way mandrake is going to make their money
Re:Seems Logical (Score:4, Funny)
Interviewee1: Well, uh... Yes. Uh... Yes I AM! I'm darn to heck pissed!
[click]
ZDNet Reporter: Hello, I'm a ZDNet reporter and I'm calling you because you are a regular Mandrake member. Are you *pissed* that Mandrake has decided to take StarOffice 6.0 away from you because you're just a regular member?
Interviewee2: Well, uh... Yes. Uh... Yes I AM! I'm totally pissed!
[click]
ZDNet Reporter: COPY!!!
Spanner in the works (Score:2)
Leon: no, OpenOffice does all I need, I prefer to use open source anyway, and it sems fair to me to ask for more payment if you're getting more service. By the way, you can download Mandrake 8.2, including OpenOffice and the source for it for free, no strings attached. Are you riding an agenda with that question?
ZDNet reporter: Uh... bugger. now we're going to have to add `Some' to the headline. Bill will halve our kickb^H^H^H^H^Hencouragement for that.
The issue isn't Mandrake, but Sun. (Score:2, Insightful)
So don't be hard on Mandrake. They are on our side.
Re:Seems Logical (Score:2)
/max
Re: (Score:2)
Given the choices (Score:2)
or the could put Open Office [openoffice.org] in it, which is actually not bad, and if I recall rightly is vaguely related to Star Office.
I wonder if their is some sort of contractual obligation to include Star, or were blinsided by the announcement that 6.0 is going to be charged for.
Re:Given the choices (Score:5, Informative)
Included on the third CD of Mandrake 8.2 download edition.
Re:Given the choices (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps you're congusing Mandrake with Microsoft, GE, IBM or some other company with lots of liquid assets they can absorb losses. In case you haven't noticed, Mandrake is suffering from low revenues, hence the membership drive.
Re:Given the choices (Score:2)
It was an attempt at mild irony/sarcasm without sufficient morning coffee. Next time I'll make it explicit with the use of irony tags.
Why are they pissed (Score:1)
Re:Why are they pissed (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Why are they pissed (Score:2, Interesting)
I think people do mind paying $400 for Office.
Supporting Mandrake is great but in exchange for your money you expect to get something.
I don't send Microsoft money in support of Windows. If I buy Windows that is all the support Microsoft is going to get from me.
Microsoft would love it if people would pay them $60/year for Windows. Heck there are people who have used the same version of Windows for 4 years so that's a good $240 Microsoft could have collected already.
Re:Why are they pissed (Score:2)
If they have made an offer to buy it at that price and the seller has accepted that offer then there is a binding contract in existance. In some parts of the world, e.g. Germany, simply putting a price on something for sale is binding on the seller.
Re:Why are they pissed (Score:2)
Disclaimers never overrule statutes. Just because marked prices are not legally binding on the seller in one part of the world does not mean there are no places where they are.
Even when the marked price is simply an "invitation to treat" once the buyer and seller have completed negotiations and the seller has accepted the buyer's offer then a contract of sale has been created between the two parties.
Fair Enough (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree (Score:2)
What bothers me is that they're asking us to choose which distribution we want to pre-order, but they aren't telling us what packages are included. Not that's annoying! (And silly.)
The result is that I haven't ordered yet, even though I've been pretty satisfied by Mandrake 8.2. And now Red Hat is getting ready to release the 7.3 beta, so I may look at that before I make up my mind. So they may have lost a sale.
I still don't regret joining their club. That was to support them. But I may end up buying the next Red Hat.
.
So ? (Score:2)
I am a member of the Mandrake Club [mandrakeclub.com] and although I understand some people beeing pissed at Mandrake going back on it's words. I can understand Mandrake's view.
The question is weather or not to give access to SO at all, after all, Mandrake will have to pay sun for it and as we know Mandrake is kinda short on cash [slashdot.org]
There realy are just two options, ignore SO completely, or pay sun and give access to it. If Mandrake is to survive, they have to make reasonable choises, and not giving away SO to everyone might be necessary.
Yeah, yeah, I know my splelling is not so good.
Mandrake needs subscribers (Score:2)
Re:Mandrake needs subscribers (Score:2)
I just hope they stay around longer than the Stormix, Progeny, and Corel debian-based distros did. But, since you can only get Libranet 2.0 by paying for it, hopefully they'll keep a strong revenue base.
So, I think you should say that only 4000 Mandrake users put their money where their mouth is, some of us are supporting other distributions.
Re:Mandrake needs subscribers (Score:2)
Ok, I know it's too late for people to see this, but I'd like to set you straight:
Libranet is under no obligation to offer a free download under the GPL. They only obligation they have is to provide you with the source if you ask for it, at the cost of distribution. They can charge for the binaries whatever the market will bear.
See the GNU GPL [gnu.org] for more details.
MartDirty Marketing Trick was Long-Planned (Score:5, Insightful)
I wonder how many people would have downloaded and invested the time to learn Star Office if they had known from the outset that Sun was planning to charge for it.
Sun, you are a pretty good company in most respects, but I don't think this tactic will benefit your reputation. It would have been better if you kept the basic Star Office suite free, and offered some corporate-targeted optional add-ons (that private users and small companies don't need) at a price. Similar to your Forte Java IDE suite (Free 'Community Edition' through to pricey 'Enterprise Edition'). That would have kept people's trust in your company.
Hopefully, you'll write this off as a mistake, and offer 'Community Editions' of SO 6 and beyond.
Re:Dirty Marketing Trick was Long-Planned (Score:1)
Also, Sun has supported OpenOffice as a free alternative to SO for those of us that can't afford the 100 dollars or so that SO is going to cost.
Re:Dirty Marketing Trick was Long-Planned (Score:2)
Excuse me? Supported OpenOffice? They freakin' GPLed it! Sun gave us an entire office suite with complete MS Office 2000/XP compatibility for free. I don't think I'll ever complain about what Sun does with Star Office. I just wish companies, especially open source, GNU, Linux companies like Mandrake would choose the GNU/Linux software over commercial closed source versions (I don't think Sun is giving away the source to Star Office, haven't checked tho). I see this as a mean thing for Mandrake to do, deciding not to give SO to their supporters, while not promoting and offerring Open Office both included in the distro and for free download for their supporters. If you can't afford to give away SO at least give away OO and help support your community. The GNU/OO community is the same as the GNU/Linux community, y'know. Its all about the license, folks.
Duh! (Score:2)
And of course they are going to charge for StarOffice. That's why they've made the investment of their time and resources in it in the first place. Did you think Sun is paying their programmers with bugfixes received from the community? - Nope, you need £$ for that. There's nothing wrong in trying to make a living.
StarOffice is (almost) free as in speech (since you can get almost the same code distributed with OpenOffice), not free as in beer. I respect Sun for trying to make money with OSS, despite freeloaders such as yourself.
Re:Duh! (Score:3, Informative)
Exactly.
That's the point that people are missing. Yes, Sun has a right to sell StarOffice for whatever price they wish. But, in the long run, which course of action will result in more revenue for Sun? I'm not convinced that this one will. They aren't going to sell more than a handful of licenses, as there is insufficient reason to migrate from MS Office.
Now, when it was free, there was a great reason to migrate: you could reduce your licensing costs tremendously since you had not per-seat restrictions. I know of a company that very nearly switched. The reason they didn't switch was not that StarOffice was free; they didn't switch because StarOffice 5.2 kind of sucked. There was something accomplished, though. They were able to negotiate down their MS Office licensing fees. So, free StarOffice in that case helped to "cut off Microsoft's air supply" just a little bit. Imagine what a good, free StarOffice 6.0 could do. Sun could do better giving away StarOffice, and making money from support and server purchases, I suspect. I'm pretty certain that they won't make much money under the current plan, though.
Re:Duh! (Score:2)
Actually it's quite possible to sell a proper site licence. Problem is that quite a lot of places are so used to per-seat and pusdo-site licencing...
. I know of a company that very nearly switched. The reason they didn't switch was not that StarOffice was free; they didn't switch because StarOffice 5.2 kind of sucked.
It would probably help Sun a lot if they could make StarOffice suck less than MS Office.
First thing to be dealt with is not throwing a questionnaire the end user. Especially one where most of the information is known to the computer anyway.
Re:Dirty Marketing Trick was Long-Planned (Score:2)
Uh, OpenOffice?
Re:Dirty Marketing Trick was Long-Planned (Score:2)
Err, that's basically what they do. OpenOffice [openoffice.org] has the core functionality of StarOffice, and for me and others I know, it is more than sufficient for work, term papers, etc. If you want to do fancy corporate collaboration and all that nonsense, then yes paying for StarOffice is probably a good way to go (hey, still cheaper than MS Office...).
People, please stop bitching about it and go help out the OpenOffice project. If you don't like what Sun's doing, fine. OpenOffice works well, and because it's open source (wow!) it can be extended and improved. Put those keystrokes to good use. :)
<TWOCENTS>FWIW, I do think it's pretty lame that Sun is obviously using the free StarOffice to try to get people to use its OS... But that's business. It's better than a lot of the BS that Microsoft pulls. </TWOCENTS>
Ximian has it right with evolution (Score:2)
I will buy new StarOffice versions at reasonable prices (70-100 dollars depending on features), but they can bet their farm that the first time a word document doesn't open correctly I will expect immediate attention to the problem.
Otherwise what am I paying for? I can efficiently work with .rtf's for free.
Re:Dirty Marketing Trick was Long-Planned (Score:2)
>cycle, Sun planned I strongly suspect that early
>in the development cycle, Sun planned
erm. Early in the development cycle, Sun had *absoloutely* nothing to do with Star Office. In the last year or two, they bought star division (sometime after 5.x, iirc).
hawk
why people are ticked (Score:1)
But they should have been able to see this coming. The SO announcement has been in the news for weeks. What it does is makes them look bad, like they really don't have a clue. That's what's bad. If the polls and discussions of the users on the club board really supported their decision, then that is the right thing to do. But they shouldn't have been blindsided by this.
Re:why people are ticked (Score:2)
Principal must always be tempered with logic...other wise it only makes things worse.
Sometimes it makes more sense to be understanding and forgiving.
By being unreasonable, you're basically saying...I don't care about anyone else but my self...that view is a horrible shade of glass to put on your nose.
Re:why people are ticked (Score:2)
Resellers and packagers often get a much better deal than the public at large (OEM pricing). It would have been possible that Mandrake got a much better price on SO than the public, and thus still be able to profitably include SO in the basic membership.
Re:why people are ticked (Score:2)
But lets say Star Office 6.0 would cost $100
Do you really expect Sun to say "Hey Mandrake, you're a popular distribution - we'll sell it for you for $5"?
Re:why people are ticked (Score:2)
How much of that is actual product cost, how much is something else, such as "support", how much is simply markup?
Do you really expect Sun to say "Hey Mandrake, you're a popular distribution - we'll sell it for you for $5"?
If they were to sell it without any "support" and this is more than it actually costs Sun to make it then they are still making money on it.
Re:why people are ticked (Score:2)
I for one (Score:1)
Mandrake should either offer those members that want it the chance to upgrade, or the opportunity to get their money back.
Excuse for persuade PHBs (Score:1)
For example, I have heard my sysadmin is trying to persuade the dept to buy a membership from Mandrake (as we may have some spare budget this year). The availablity of StarOffice 6 will make our suggestion a much much stronger case for the PHBs...
StarOffice is NOT FREE. (Score:2, Informative)
Maybe they don't want to (Score:1, Troll)
Why must people always complain (Score:1, Redundant)
People need to shut the hell up, Subcribe, or shut up, its that simple.
Dont understand the outrage.. (Score:5, Interesting)
So, we now have over 1/2 the office workers and sales staff using Open Office at home AND now wanting me to install it on their computers at work to replace that Microsoft version.
Star Office, i wish them luck, but noone outside of a corperate purchaser is interested in it.
Re:Dont understand the outrage.. (Score:2)
So I have a difficult time understanding your claim that "Open Office is better than Star Office".
Of course, the Star Office beta's been out for a considerable length of time, so the Open Office code base is more recent and you may be using a version with more bug fixes than the Star Office beta release.
But that same Open Office code base will be wrapped into Star Office final
They've done that before (Score:2)
And I'm not agreeing to it. Not once. If someone wants it installed, they're going to need to get someone else to install it. Mind you, they can. That's not my point. With the license changes that they've made they have every incentive to get as many people as possible to install it on as many systems as possible. Expecially the provision that says (paraphrased) "We have the right to copy to a location of our choice, add delete, or modify any file on your computer." Now I don't believe that any court would enforce that right before the fact, but for that they have added technological whizz-bang, so they can do it without your permission. And with that contract in place, good luck on getting any court to order a restore afterwards. In fact, good luck at even proving just what happened.
What would you do if MS encrypted your disk "to improve security", and they were the only ones who knew the key. Then they decided it was time for you to upgrade your system, but as a bonus, they threw in a free security system upgrade (auto-installed). Which didn't work with some of the older programs.
If you think they'd never do this, then you've never had the dubious pleasure of managing an upgrade between "compatible" versions of MS Access. That's one they've always broken (though sometimes they've been subtle about it).
.
So what's the problem? (Score:2)
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:2)
The point is, that Mandrake DIDN'T EXPECT THIS MOVE FROM SUN! they clearly thought that Sun would give Star Office 6 for free like version 5.2..
So they have 2 choices: a) giving it for those who paid $5 a month and loose on every copy downloaded or b) change the rules...
Guess what they (rightfully IMHO) did?
Re:So what's the problem? (Score:2)
Mandrake's customers are not a party to Mandrake's dealings with their suppliers (including Sun Microsystems). The correct thing would have been either to drop supplying Star Office, cover any price differences themselves or renegotiate with the supplier.
So they have 2 choices: a) giving it for those who paid $5 a month and loose on every copy downloaded or b) change the rules.
False dicotomy, they had at least 3 other choices.
This is not so bad (Score:5, Interesting)
That Mandrake is going to pass along the cost of Sun's charging for StarOffice 6 only makes sense from a financial point of view, especially given Mandrake's recent money troubles [slashdot.org].
It doesn't bother me a bit though, and I am a club member, though not at a level high enough to download StarOffice for free. I gave my $60 to Mandrake, not expecting anything in return, even though benefits are offered to club members. I gave my money because I think Mandrake is the best distro around, and one that has a real chance of making a headway against the MS dominance on the desktop.
So don't be upset that Mandrake is charging its customers to cover the cost of that which they are being charged for themselves. That's how a business is run. And unless Mandrake stays profitable as a business, this great distrobution might not be around in a couple of years.
If you enjoy or appreciate Mandrake's work, why not join the club [mandrakeclub.com] yourself today?
Yes! Reality Check People! (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not a Mandrake fan, nor do I use it. But I've gotta side with Mandrake in this one, because it's obvious some of you are taking their goodwill too far. I pay RedHat the similar $60/year, the lowest level, for priority downloads and other services. I don't expect anything more, nor should you Mandrake $60/yearers after reading their agreement.
Reality check people! $60/year does NOT entitle you to a product that is almost $100 on the retail shelf. I don't care about OEM licensing, Mandrake has got to make money! Furthermore, that $60 probably barely covers all the other services and benefits provided. Lastly, the statement of "receive the same benefits" would most likely extend to only Mandrake products and services, and NOT 3rd party products and/or services. Otherwise, Mandrake would go "belly up" (actually all distros seem to have a constant loss after all expense considerations, even RedHat).
Frankly, Mandrake should be commended on allowing StarOffice to be downloaded as an .iso thanx to membership, and Sun for licensing it to Linux distributors so they can do so. Man, I'm really getting sick of
this "whining" crap. Some of you "whiney" Linux users need to go! At least before most of the good, GPL-focused commercial organizations cannot sustain your selfishness!
Re: Oh yeah, Loki rings so true! (Score:2)
At every hackfest, I had at least 2-3 people ask about my Loki games, "Are you allowing people to copy this?" Com'mon! I too bought most of my Loki games direct for $25-50, and picked up a few others at EB for $10-20.
Of couse, the game market just had too thin of margins for Loki to survive regardless. I'm glad to see independent developers signing NDAs with game makers to make Linux ports though. Hopefully the major houses will start doing their own soon enough.
Re:This is not so bad (Score:2)
So you know, I am a card carrying member of the Mandrake club, and I am because I use their software, no other reason.
Uh? (Score:2)
Not it is not! Of course Mandrake is not shareware. It is available for free, source and all, no strings attached, permission to distribute, copy and mirror at will. This is _NOT_ the shareware model. If you register a shareware you still only have one license, not as many as you want.
Simply in order to sustain the costs of putting up the distro Mandrake needs money, more money than they can raise, at least short-term, by selling it.
It turns out I really like their distribution, and I use it to work and make my own money, and it would be a disturbance for me should they go out of business. So I gave them money, and hoped enough people like me would do the same so they can stay in business and I can keep happily using their stuff. Even though I don't _have_ to give them money.
Easy hey?
As a side note,I paid the club membership, but really, I would hope they spend as little as possible on members-only services. All I expect from them is to use that money to keep on building nice distributions (8.2 is _so_ easy to install compared to windows it's obscene). And no I don't mind free-loaders, I just hope enough people understand it is in their best interest to have companies like Mandrake, Suse, RedHat Connectiva... around
Re:This is not so bad (Score:2)
Keel Haul the /. Weenies
Mandrake is my Linux distro and I do what I can to support it. $60.00 gives you access to a community of users and developers with more experties and, and, well... just more stuff than you can shake a stick at... (man I like mug after mug o' coffee on an empty stomach). Of course that's $60.00 U.S. so as a canajen I gotta mortagage the country for the $$$. How about I just fall the last big fir in the back fourty and send Mandrake a big old log?
Amateur Hour (Score:2, Insightful)
This just makes Mandrake look both foolish and amateurish. If they wish to be taken seriously as a business, they can't go whining to their users for welfare payments one minute, then renege on promises the next. Mandrake produces a fine distro, but their business acumen leaves a lot to be desired.
Here's a free hint, guys: pissing off your loyal user base to save a few bucks in the short-term is a great way to doom your company.
Angry users (Score:2)
But...
Can someone please point out an angry user?
On Mandrakeforum all I found were a few posts of someone who said to be disappointed, and another one who was displeased.
That's not the same as angry. Well, maybe on Slashdot, but not in the rest of the world
So maybe this story has the size of a mosquito, where on Slashdot it is blown up to the size of an elephant?
Re:Angry users (Score:2)
Why should Mandrake get a free pass? Is it okay for, say, Red Hat to do the same thing? Mandrake begged for donations, they promised equal access for all, they reneged on the deal after people had paid. It's a pretty cut and dry case of fucking over your supporters.
Nobody should get away with that kind of crap.
I intend to ask for a refund. I was interested in supporting Mandrake, not Sun, and certainly not the salaries of managers who would allow this to happen.
Re:Angry users (Score:2)
more on announcement from MandrakeClub (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.mandrakeclub.com/article.php?sid=
You will see this as part of the announcement for commercial applications for MandrakeClub members:
"At this moment it isn't clear what will happen with the StarOffice. How badly do you need this application?"
This is dated March 8. Before they made the big membership drive, IIRC, or very close to it. Most of the responses below say that they don't care about SO. So, it looks like someone is spreading FUD about Mandrake and that Mandrake needs to be a little bit more thorough is updating its the marketing on its website.
Not all club members are angry (Score:2)
Personally, I'd like to see Mandrakesoft stop offering free ISOs of their distribution to non-members (yeah, I know the GPL insists the source must be available, and it should be, but Mandrakesoft shouldn't make it easy for people to take and not give back).
Secondly, I wish they would give more incentives to join the club, such as making the popular Mandrakeforum site club members only.
I'm sure there are a lot of people running Mandrake that haven't paid for it and haven't joined the club. Legally, there is nothing wrong with that, but if the distribution is to survive, then perhaps some incentives may encourage people to part with their money.
Re:Not all club members are angry (Score:2)
It doesn't state that you have to make it freely available for everyone. Anyone that *you* distribute a binary to must be given reasonable access to the source code upon request. "Reasonable" can include a fee for transfer, media costs, etc.
Yeah it's neat they let people download ISOs, but that bandwidth isn't free to them. Why they wouldn't say $5/download or something is beyond me. Or simply have a one disc distro of binaries with a link to download sources if you want them.
Don't apologize for the GPL here - most people do more than it calls for (and many do much less, I'm sure).
To be or not to be - a level platform that is (Score:3, Insightful)
There are two reasons why I don't like this StarOffice license deal:
1) People who in essense donated money to Mandrake in order to promote the development of the free platform now find some of that money going into Sun's coffers, regardless whether they wished to buy a license for the proprietary StarOffice or not.
I welcome any kind of Linux software support by independent developers and commercial ISVs but how does this kind of deal encourage choice? Should the vendors of WordPerfect Office, SmartSuite or god forbid MS-Office, or any other commercial applications, begin to sell pre-paid licenses to users/supporters of particular platforms? If you had effectively paid for one (as part of your platform support) would you still be interested in paying for the one that might really interest you? How is Mandrake's paying for StarOffice really different from hardware OEM's paying for Windows + MS-Office "on your behalf" when you go out and buy that new beige box? Shouldn't both the OEM's and Mandrake let the customer decide if they want the extras? Just negotiate the bulk discounts for your customers and let them decide.
2)"All members are entitled to same benefits"
I simply can't see how any vendor should be allowed to change such terms unilaterally and without due warning, let alone a Linux vendor who had just appealed to people's goodwill and financial help.
I've supported Linux (various flavours, bought boxes, converted and helped Windows converts etc.) for many years and one of the main attractions of Linux for me personally was the moral high ground it offered. I still like Mandrake's distro and appreciate their efforts at promoting Linux use on the desktop but I'm not happy with the way they handled this issue. Did something happen to Mandrake's soul when they became a publically-traded company?
It will be interesting to see whether the Mandrake Club staff will ever answer my email or not...
Now go ahead and burn me at stake for not approving with everything that some free software company does. I'm strong enough to take (actually deflect) any crap without the urge to join some militaristic boot camps. So there.
Just charge for the download to cover bandwidth? (Score:4, Interesting)
It's no big deal if people mirror them or copy them to friends, you just have to try and prevent multiple people from grabbing it. So only allow one login per username and expire the code after 15 days of the first login.
If they don't have everything they need in 15 days or if they didn't make a backup on CD they can pay another $3 and try again.
Wouldn't $3/download cover bandwidth costs?
Re:Just charge for the download to cover bandwidth (Score:2)
Probably, but...
MandrakeSoft doesn't actually host the ISOs. Volunteer mirror sites do, many of which are *.edu sites. The universities absorb the bandwidth costs (probably quite insignificant compared to their overall budget).
Re:Just charge for the download to cover bandwidth (Score:2)
Good Bye Star Office! (Score:2)
Guess what. No one bought it. Even at that price. Do they think people will switch to Star Office for over $100/user?
Re:Good Bye Star Office! (Score:2)
There is a slight difference....SO doesn't suck!
I know because I purchased WP for Linux and it's a horrible bastard product which they failed to have function properly out of the box...let alone failed to support with patches that it needed. As far as I'm conerened, they owe me money back!
Star Office on the other hand...is much faster than WP ever was on Linux and, hey, what a concept...it actually works!
Was the Windows version... (Score:2)
I was very unimpressed by Mandrake (Score:2)
I also searched the cooker archives and found that many people were saying that the Mandrake community had changed- too much pressure to release, and a reluctance to acknowledge bugs.
But I wish them luck. SuSE is a much bigger organnization with more resources. Plus I had to pay $80 for SuSE- but it was well worth the money.
Open source users; their own worst enemy! (Score:2)
After
I have heard that if they don't get enough support to survive they may concider not releasing new versions of Mandrake until they do receive enough support to justify it.
Sometimes the users of open source are their own worst enemy!
Way to go guys.
A member speaks (Score:2, Insightful)
Further, I have installed Mandrake 8.1 on lots of my machines and have been able to abandon windoze to one underpowered box that I use when I absolutely need some app. That, in my mind, is the value I received from the club membership and from Mandrake. I am free of windoze and free to have a well designed good performing machine.
Lots of Slashdotters say they want an open software environment with sharing of assets but when somebody makes a reasonable business decision they cry and whine.
You know.... (Score:2)
If some people leave the Mandrake user-base then hopefully they will move onto other places in the linux world. Hopefully [for many in the community] Mandrake will make some money not for selling linux but a good linux app.
Hell, star office is nice on my XP machine. I run it at home where I can't afford a $400 piece of software.
FTP sites should hold some ISO's and I expect colleges to host some distro's so I can install from a floppy if I'm in a pinch. Hell, starting today I'm hosting different completely free linux iso's on gnutella.....
... but the end point is we want linux boxes on store shelves. I'm not a developer but I like linux and I hope it gets a good sized [35% total?] user base all around.
Linux must make it somewhere on someone's desktop because not only do some people feel like they have to pay cash - but some people need funding for development.
Trust (Score:2)
And they made SO6 free for higher class members. I have no problem with that either, I could have used SO6 (I'm still using OO 639c) but it is possible to buy it from Sun anyway. All members can buy pro suite at a discounted rate which has SO6. And those silver and gold members did pay more than me, so it is only natural they can profit more from their membership.
My only problem is that mandrake failed to keep their promise. They categorically stated that we would all be same, enjoy membership goodies no matter how much we payed. When I first saw it, I thought it was dumb to say. But they did say that. I didn't request to be treated same with other levels, even if I paid considerably less; it was their promise
Why should I trust mandrake now? Which promise they will break next? These are the real problems with their move. SO6 has nothing to do with discussion.
And another thing is, I just whine. Perhaps somebody will be enough pissed so they won't be satisfied with just whining. Do you think mdk has a chance in the court? How will the company survive if it is forced to make SO6 downloads free for every member?
Pussies (you whinners - you know who you are) (Score:3)
I gave $120. I did it and did not immediately log in to see what I could get. I haven't paid attention. I am not rich, I am a frickin' grad student. I did it to support a good distro through some bad times.
I also PAID for the boxed 8.2 release...same reasons. Up to now, I've downloaded iso images or did the slower, painful upgrades via rpm alone. I figured it was time to give back. It is a GOOD thing to pay, at least once in a while, for the work your distro is doing. Ungrateful, snot-nosed twerps.
THIS is one of the main reasons that there are no linux games. This is the main reason there is practically no linux commercial software. When was the last time you saw an opensource tax-prep package? Or a top-of-the line game come to linux and do well? All that has EVER come is a port (loki, now dead because of deadbeats leeches) or out of the goodness of the developer's heart (idSoftware) but STILL requiring a windoze game purchase. This last is just a nice gesture and does nothing to keep the company afloat and game-producing.
Ya'll have the misimpression that you are OWED software. That you shouldn't have to pay for ANYTHING...ever. That you are entitled to ANYTHING. Nope. You are not. You want the niceties (simple installers, nice development ala Transgaming's version of wine that works better than ANY other version of wine to games), then you should be willing to pay to get them...REGARDLESS of licensing.
Too many of you talk a good game
about the strength and political superiority of opensource but what you are REALLY doing is demanding free/never pay for software developed by the labor of others. I LIKE opensource and I like that I can get most/all of it for free but I also know for a fact that a lot of it would NOT be here if NO one coughed up money to cover the costs. Fact. Grow up and join the real world.Did it occur to you (Score:2, Interesting)
Probably, a guy at Mandrake thought: "why not make it a little bit more attractive to go for the $10 option by introducing a difference (though with open office around, really only psychologically)". Maybe people will think: " uhmm... star office, what's next. You know what, I'll tick the $10 option."
Would have worked for me. Too late for them now.
FTP download site (Score:2)
The other strange thing is when you do join, there is a lag time between when you pay and when you get your website login, mine was about 4 days. The receipt for payment doesn't even notify the customer that he will be receiving a login. Some people probably pay and mistakenly assume that it is just a donation until 4 days later when they get a login.
In case you wonder... (Score:2)
PPA, the girl next door.
Re:A Solution (Score:2)
However, one thing is certain in my mind. Mandrake is a business. When businesses make promises they often get sued to keep said promises; usually they get nailed under false advertising. The people complanining may be petty, but I assure you Mandrake is going to get itself very quickly into buckets of very serious legal trouble if it doesn't get its business act toghether yesterday.
Re:subscriptions, microsoft, support OT (Score:2, Insightful)
Microsoft's idea is forced paying. You dont have a choice.
Re:subscriptions, microsoft, support OT (Score:2)
This isn't like it's a Mandrake application. It's a third party application.
If Sun was giving it to them for free or if it was a Mandrake application, then your complaint would hold water. Since it's not, you're being very unrealistic. Basically you're demanding they go out of business for attempting to improve their product offerings.
How sane is that?
How reasonable is that?
Basically they are saying, where they can cover the nut, they are improving service where it makes sense. Where it would cost them money (aka...force them out of business), they simply can't offer it. Don't forget, as a publically traded company, they have a higher obligation to their share holders! Like it or not, that's common sense!
In what way, shape or form is that unreasonable? It's not. Saying otherwise simply makes you sounds selfish and self centered.
Re:Lest we forget.... (Score:2)
That's actually not the same thing at all. A better and more accurate example would be...for every part that we make, we'll provide and warranty. The third party extras for the attached VCR (third party software), you'll be required to pay for the third party parts...but will still put it together for you (free labor and delivery). Sounds like you got a MUCH better deal than what you thought were were...after all, you're getting something for nothing...Mandrake Soft is making it available in the first place...which is a service....at their expense....
Sounds very reasonable to me.
I paid my $60 and i'm angry too. (Score:2)