Oracle Switching To Linux 539
Bill Kendrick writes: "This Computerworld story quotes Oracle CEO Larry Ellison as saying 'We'll be on Linux no later than the summer, so we'll be running our whole business on Linux." When asked what this means for Unix vendors like Sun... "It will be several years before the big machine dies, but inevitably the big machine will die.' Ouch!"
Yeah, right... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Yeah, right... (Score:2, Interesting)
Intel is releasing faster chips all the time and Linux is continually improving -- I don't think it will take long until Sun is left in the dust.
Re:Yeah, right... (Score:4, Informative)
for starters, you are comparing a dual cpu box with a quad cpu box. The quad's always cost more per cpu. Simple matter of the fact that it is harder to get 4 cpus' to talk together compared to only 2 (why do you think intel has yet to produce a 64 way smp server.... sun did it 5 years ago, cray did it before them.) You also have to look at things like backplane contention (are all of those cpu's on the same bus? sucks to be you if they are)
anyway, yes, sun boxes cost more than their intel counterparts in the low to mid range. That said, I have yet to find an intel box that does what the X1 can do for the low end, and once you get to 8 ways systems, intel starts to disappear from the map (and the sun boxes are the same cost or cheaper).
Now, we got the hardware price argument out of the way.
when making a decision, there are 3 major areas to consider: Price, Performance and Reliability. Only an idiot would focus on price when the cost of downtime is a million an hour.
The real reason i purchase sun boxes is not because they are the fastest. You want fast cpu's? Go get an intel box.
here are the main reasons I continue to purchase sun boxes:
#1) Sun's support organization. It is second to none. period, end of story. You have a problem, they fix it. I had a failed disk earlier this week, the support rep's first response was to send a tech on site that day.
#2) When they boast about binary compatibility from $1,000 to $10,000,000, they are not kidding. I can give the developers a low end box and know that the app will still work on a mid to high end box
#3) It just works. I dont get the "what glib are you using", "is that rev XYZ of that nic?" or any of that other crap.
#4) the hardware seems to last forever and ever and ever. And sun supports the stuff for a long time. Every try and get dell to support a six year old box? yeah, good luck.
#5) did i mention the support?
#6) it was built to be managed from a serial port and live on a network from day 1. I love the fact that i can put all of my servers in a colo, walk out, and do the OS install from home. I know that PC's are now beginning to get to the point where you can hook a serial cable up and get them to boot from the net and do an os install. lets face it, there are whole books on how to use jumpstart in the sun environment and do 100% hands off installs. It just works, and it is fully supported.
So, as you can see, there is more to the decision than just cost. In the world that i work in, time is money, and the hardware cost is a very small percentage of the TCO.
Re:Yeah, right... (Score:5, Informative)
(1) Sun's support is great if you are in the right area. Check with companies in smaller centers to see what kind of support they are getting, and how long it takes to get a good engineer out to resolve any serious issues.
(3) Isn't quite true. The OS is only the foundation, and you rapidly find that you need this particular OS patch for Sybase, another for DB/2, another for Encina, Tuxedo, Websphere, ... If you can find a combination of packages that can agree on patch levels, count yourself lucky! The only advantage Sun has here is a better coordination of patches than standalone Linux.
(4) You have got to be kidding! Sun's CPUs, memory modules, and hard drives fail at least as often as other vendors. Personal experience would indicate IBM and HP as the most reliable, but I have no empirical evidence to support that observation.
Your point on price not being relevant is largely true. The cost of the physical hardware is trivial compared to maintenance staff, software licenses, development costs, and cascading downtime.
Re:Yeah, right... (Score:3, Interesting)
First, the less consequential. We're losing faith rapidly in Sun's engineers. They are getting as bad as Microsoft with buggy bug-fixes.
What's important is for the price of a high-end Sun box, I can distribute across several faster Intel boxes. I will have enough money left to swap out what are commodity boxes when they fail. Support is less of an issue for what amounts to disposable server hardware. Even after buying with the assumption that everything will break, I will still have cash to spare.
I can architect a server infrastructure that, as far as the end-user, and therefore the keeper of the purse-strings, "just works" cheaper, and will beat the Sun platform between 3-5 times in terms of performance.
You say Time is money and you're right, but even if Sun's support or hardware reliability was everything you say it is (and IMO it is not) it takes less time to swap out a fast Intel box, and throw it out if it's fried.
Re:Yeah, right... (Score:3, Insightful)
A company I worked at lost their ENTIRE database because the keyboard monkey Replaced a failing controller card, swapped cable locations (put cables back in wrong slots), bumped a scsi cable, bent a pin and claimed ignorance!
What do you expect for paying 10% support contracts and having a monkeys that need a gui to do anything.
re #5) Did I mention KEYBOARD MONKEYS?
re #6) You obviously never tried to install apps that required a gui.
Jump start a sun. Sure but try to JS a sun off of a linux server and your are F*CKED. Because sun decided to make their own PROPRIATARY dhcp crud.
I could go on but this will just turn into a pissing match with each of us saying you/your os sucks. But bottem line is SUN sucks becuase they will never own up to all the mistakes they make.
Oh yeah that tech ^H^H^H^H keyboard monkey that screwed us up? well he "lost" his notes. I would say he burned them in the parking lot when he realized what he did.
Re:Yeah, right...not (Score:4, Informative)
Let me guess, you have a multimilion contract and they had a newbey which could use some training :-)...
#2) When they boast about binary compatibility frSo, as you can see, there is more to the decision than just cost. In the world that i work in, time is money, and the hardware cost is a very small percentage of the TCO.om $1,000 to $10,000,000, they are not kidding. I can give the developers a low end box and know that the app will still work on a mid to high end box
eeuh, 2 posibilities here : a) you're talking hw, and i don't understand you at all. The only one which did care for downward campatibilit was INTEL (also only reason why it stayed popular) b) you're talking about software and then it's just stupid. Just recompiling you're app for newer hardware gives you a better performing app. Binary compatibility is just a stinky way to be able to hide theire source.
#3) It just works. I dont get the "what glib are you using", "is that rev XYZ of that nic?" or any of that other crap.
#4) the hardware seems to last forever and ever and ever. And sun supports the stuff for a long time. Every try and get dell to support a six year old box? yeah, good luck.
Right, but for SUN's 1x price I can get a a newer box each year.
#5) did i mention the support?
Euch you mean the part where you get forwarded from helpdesk to helpdesk and finaly get a ticketnumber saying you're in their problem database ???
#6) it was built to be managed from a serial port and live on a network from day 1. I love the fact that i can put all of my servers in a colo, walk out, and do the OS install from home. I know that PC's are now beginning to get to the point where you can hook a serial cable up and get them to boot from the net and do an os install. lets face it, there are whole books on how to use jumpstart in the sun environment and do 100% hands off installs. It just works, and it is fully supported.
Correct yourself here too.. you are talking about the UNIX way, not about the SUN way. The same can easily and much cheaper be achieved on PC hw with a free unix like bsd or linux.
So, as you can see, there is more to the decision than just cost. In the world that i work in, time is money, and the hardware cost is a very small percentage of the TCO.
Please stop glorifying SUN, the only reason you need them is because they have an IT department with a legal department to back them up. (which is the key for most of their businesses) For the rest it's just a big corp not much diffrent from M$ : some brilliant guys and lot's of morron's acting important
--red
Re:Yeah, right... (Score:2)
Re:Yeah, right... (Score:2)
Linux works great in clusters and performs wonderfully on commodity i386 machines. What's the problem?
.
Gold Medal (Score:3, Funny)
I think we can chalk this up as a win.
GO LINUX!
Re:Gold Medal (Score:5, Funny)
I think we can chalk this up as a win.
Oh yeah, big win! Linux replaced THREE SERVERS! 783,472,991 to go!
Re:Gold Medal (Score:5, Interesting)
The article also said that they would also provide FULL system support for Linux. That's a really big plus. The IT managers know that if they deploy Linux that Oracle will back them up if anything goes wrong.
Big, big win.
.
Re:Gold Medal (Score:3, Interesting)
.
+1 insightful to the above... (Score:3, Insightful)
This is something i've been wanting to say for a while, but you said it so i'll just agree. I don't think the Evil Empire of Microsoft has always had a devious plan to take over the universe and push everyone around. It's just that now, they have the power to _be_ evil. It's the same way in any other situation - power corrupts, or, put differently, you _will_ do what you _can_ do. In other words, what you can get away with.
Situation: what happens when linux has 95% of market share? You think that will Utopia? NO! I think it will be distro wars, and binary incompatibility, and Distribution Z running off with its code from Distributions X and Y, legal battles over the licenses cuz that linux kernel+software will be worth BILLIONS if that day comes - whoever controls it controls 95% of computing...you think that'll be fun then?
Sorry if i'm getting too excited - but I think that what is of greatest importance is competition - linux isn't the second coming, as much as you'd like it to be. Free software's ideas are great - but linux is more than an idea - and it can be corrupted and misused and monopolized. Competition is what we need - and part of linux is that it allows competition (with itself, even) through it's openness, yes. Me, I'm looking for competition, not dominance.
Hmmm (Score:2)
Not sure what to think of this, honestly.
Sure, Linux is great, I love it. That's not the problem.
The hardware aspect of this just doesn't sound that great to me. Replacing three high end SPARC boxes with a cluster of Intel hardware might not be the greatest idea in the world. Secondary costs could easily skyrocket. I guess only time will tell...
Re:Hmmm (Score:2, Interesting)
To quote the article:
They're getting rid of old equipment, not mindlessly replacing new hardware.
I wonder how old the HP boxes are?
Licensing (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Licensing (Score:5, Insightful)
All of that said, if oracle can get you to get rid of your 72CPU SunFire 15K and replace it with a 128 single cpu intel boxes..... (extra intel boxes to make up for the lost ram and system bandwidth in the 15K)
Lets see what that would cost ya...
list price for a 72 cpu license for a single box is 2.9 million. List price for those 128 cpu's w/ RAC will cost ya 7.6 million.
Lots of smaller, "cheaper" systems can often cost less overall. This is not the case here, where the price delta more than makes up for the cost of the big sun box, and we dont even have to get into the argument over the extra cost involved in managing 128 different systems. (besides, RAC is not a 'shared nothing' cluster, so management of large clusters is a real pain)
anyway, larry is always going to need sun to produce the big boxes for its big clients.
Re:Licensing (Score:3)
note that standard edition is much cheaper than Enterprise Edition. (like 1/10th the cost) However, if you want to use RAC (which larry is indicating as the replacement for a single large system) then you must use EE. Also, you are not permitted to put standard edition on any system with more than 4 cpu's. Also, this is just oracle's cost, you still need to add in your own cluster software to make sure that if an instance goes down, you dont loose that data (RAC is not a 'shared nothing' cluster)
now, if you want to manually partition your data, you could get away with using standard edition on a ton of boxes. you are simply trading cost in one area for extra time and expense to implement in another The actual advantage in ones particular environment is dependant on the cost of time (students are cheap
Re:Licensing (Score:4, Insightful)
It is very poorly supported by oracle.
I had to do a lot of tweaking, (editing kernel headers, etc)
However, since i got it to work, it has totally outperformed the windows NT implementation.
For one thing, it has uptime of 200+ days.
Re:Licensing (Score:5, Informative)
Linux kills Sun? (Score:2, Interesting)
Will they access Linux with NC's? (Score:2)
sPh
Re:Will they access Linux with NC's? (Score:5, Funny)
So THIS is how he plans to get rid of the competition. (Pictures of MIG flown by Larry flying over competitors corporate HQ, surface to air missiles a-flying). Can we all chip in and buy one of these for Linus?
I think we should get Linus a Harrier (Score:2)
Re:Will they access Linux with NC's? (Score:2, Funny)
For some reason this guy always reminded me of Larry Ellison so I can just picture him flying that MiG over Microsoft's hq in Redmond
Re:Will they access Linux with NC's? (Score:2, Funny)
sPh
I thought Oracle doesn't need any OS layer... (Score:2)
Re:I thought Oracle doesn't need any OS layer... (Score:2)
My guess is, as they got further into the game, they realized that they wouldn't be able to compete with any level of scalability the performance of Oracle on Sun. The One Widget to rule them all! *cough*
Re:I thought Oracle doesn't need any OS layer... (Score:2, Informative)
IIRC, the server that Oracle showed off Oracle 8i with was an HP double-wide pedestal server (possibly a PA-RISC server).
He'll be flying into the airport late again... (Score:5, Funny)
Hmmm, gonna be pulling some late nighters there. I'll give him that its good talk. But I bet this is one case where the "sales" department hasn't told the support department their pitch yet.
"YOU TOLD THE CUSTOMERS WE'D DO WHAT?"
Standard Distros (Score:2, Informative)
Otherwise, it will be too big of a hassle figuring out where the problem lies with a custom distribution. This is not really that good of a thing for either Oracle or Linux... because either Oracle will have to have their own distribution, which you can not alter if you want to keep support, or you will have to go with a RedHat, Debian, Mandrake or some other flavor and keep it to their specs...
Interesting to see how this turns out....
Re:Standard Distros (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, they will probably only support one or two major distributions of Linux, and they will probably subcontract out to the Linux vendor some of the Linux problems.
This actually makes a lot of sense for Oracle. After all, they want you to spend as little on your hardware and operating system as possible. After all, they are selling a database and applications, not Solaris licenses. If they can cut Sun out of the loop that is billions more in potential profits for them. Their solutions become less expensive (and more competitive) without any loss of profit margin.
The fact of the matter is that the operating system is quickly becoming a commodity. In a few years even Microsoft won't be selling their operating system (that's why they are so desperate to move to a service and support type business).
Re:Standard Distros (Score:3, Informative)
"Now you can use the Solaris[tm] 8 Operating Environment at home or at work -- without paying a license fee. For only the cost of media ($75 U.S.) plus shipping, you can use the software on an unlimited number of computers with a capacity of eight or fewer CPUs."
Re:Standard Distros (Score:4, Insightful)
It would appear the Solaris on Intel has come to the end of the road. Here is the quote from Sun's website.
However, even if Sun wasn't end-of-lifing Solaris for Intel, there are obvious reasons why Oracle can't base their future business plans on the availability of a low-cost version of Solaris on Intel based hardware. The most obvious of these reasons is that Oracle doesn't own Solaris. If Oracle were to start suggesting to their customers that they run Oracle on free copies of Solaris for Intel (instead of Sun's Sparc hardware) then Sun is bound to notice, and they would almost certainly change the license for their Intel version. After all, they can't really let their free Intel version of Solaris cannabalize sales of their Sparc hardware.
Linux, on the other hand, is safe because Oracle has as much control over it as they need. Since Oracle has access to the source code they can easily customize Linux to their particular needs.
Larry is right, it sucks to be in the operating systems business right now. Especially if you are trying to sell a Unix-like operating system (although Microsoft is feeling the pinch as well). Linux on commodity hardware continues to improve at a remarkable pace, and you can't beat the price.
Re:Standard Distros (Score:3, Interesting)
The market has essentially polarized into Windows vs. (some form of) Unix. Which basically boils down to "Microsoft" vs. "everyone else". Some play both sides but if they're smart they know what'll happen to them if they hang around MS too long. Some exit strategy is required.
So we get Unix, with all its warts. But we also get a "People's implementation" via Linux which is great ("pimp" linux :) and BSD - pick your political party. There's the "Mack Truck" versions via Solaris/AIX/et al on honking big mothers of machines. And
things like QNX, various real-time Unicies, etc... A free market. (I'm purposefully avoiding the Linux everywhere thing, sure do it but other systems have often have their own advantages and it may not be too healthy in the long term, we have to wait and see)
Where do MS fit in then?
Re:Standard Distros (Score:4, Interesting)
In a situation like that, support shouldn't really be a big problem, at least no bigger than normal.
I guess if you're installing your 8 processor Oracle database server on a LinuxFromScratch box, you'd probably be on your own.
.
Re:He'll be flying into the airport late again... (Score:2)
If Oracle ships a very light version of Linux with their database, then there's a good chance that this may be feasible.
most telling Ellison sentence (Score:3, Interesting)
nuff said.
Larry to Sun.... (Score:5, Funny)
Unforturnately for Larry, the same quote is being said to him by the Free Software movement....
Heh, no kidding (Score:5, Interesting)
And then somebody discovers this "PostgresSQL" thing....
Payback's a bitch, innit?
DG
http://autocross.dsm.org/books.html
Re:Heh, no kidding (Score:4, Insightful)
What I'm saying here is that the many thousands of dollars per month large companies pay for Oracle is worth the absolute assurance that their database will be usable 24/365(6). Sometimes, it's just cheaper to pay the money than lose out on $100,000,000 worth of money transfers during the hour you're down.
Re:Heh, no kidding (Score:3, Funny)
Redhat, one of the most trusted and experienced names in the database industry...
Re:Yeah Right (Score:3, Interesting)
Human Genome Project? Last I heard, PostgresSQL
Earth to Zealots... (Score:2)
Larry is almost certainly thinking of the advantages of commodity nature of the hardware (Intel) [once you get past some of the market speak] not to the nature of the software that happens to run on it (Linux).
Sun is focused largely on HARDWARE, not software. Oracle is primarily about SOFTWARE, not hardware. Oracle can quite easily port their entire line of software, ergo, you're comparing apples and oranges.
Isn't it a bit ironic... (Score:5, Funny)
Perhaps Sun should announce their commitment to PostgreSQL.
Re:Isn't it a bit ironic... (Score:3, Interesting)
*ROFL* - N o kidding!! Thats just how this sounds. To me it, at first glance, it may appear that oracle could be canabalizing their own product. If Linux is good enough to replace Sun kit, why isn't PGSQL good enough to replace moderate database requirements? What an interesting time we live in!
Re:Isn't it a bit ironic... (Score:5, Insightful)
most Oracle users.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I left the industry after clients started using similar glassy-eyed statements about Java. Both Java and Oracle have their place, but considering Oracle's insane price and administration overhead, it needs quite a bit of research before deployment.
Re:Isn't it a bit ironic... (Score:5, Interesting)
There are a small fraction of Oracle users that "cannot afford to lose data and/or they need something that you can scale the hell out of." Both of which are not 100% true of Oracle (personal experience(*) here), but true enough that sales droids make good money.
(*)I've had Oracle databases simply go away when the machine crashed (would not even try to recognize the data on disk until a full backup had been restored). Mysql and Postgresql have never done this to me. As for scalability, Oracle is a beast. It costs exponentially more as you get into options like parallel server (which makes it less stable and harder to manage by an order of magnitude), and your hardware costs skyrocket as you have to start buying boxes capable of calculating the last digit of pi. Personally, I don't call that scalable. Call me wierd.
Re:Isn't it a bit ironic... (Score:3, Insightful)
if their cluster solutions works as well as the rest of the their software, it shouldn't be a problem.
Regarding Postgres, your claims are pretty weak. I have been using it for about 4 years and have never 'lost data'. Besides, isn't that what backups are for?
SUNW (Score:2)
Last I looked, they were trading at 10.78!
Ouch indeed!
Oracle still not open.. (Score:3, Interesting)
I want to know when they will be announcing that Oracle is Open Source!
maybe they'll support more distros? (Score:2, Informative)
larry larry larry... (Score:4, Funny)
It's all about the customers (Score:5, Insightful)
Additionally, who with a production system isn't going to want both the hardware & software reliability and 24/7 support of the caliber that Sun provides?
Don't get me wrong, I love Linux & use it as my primary platform. But I wouldn't deploy my db back-end on it. We used Suns at my last job for very good reasons.
He may take the Sun out of Oracle, but he won't take the Sun out of the users, and if Oracle starts slipping on the Sun support, there's always Sybase.
Exactly. (Score:4, Interesting)
Not to mention that with what Oracle charges for it's very confusing clustering software, it was actually cheaper for my company to buy one more expensive Sun server to run Oracle on than lots of cheap ones + the clustering software. Since Oracle licences are a recurring expensce, and we just had to buy the Sun server up front, the disparity gets even worse.
That reminds me, I have to take the opportunity to rant about Oracle pricing now. They actually charged us for a second license because our Oracle software is located on a NFS-shared network filer. This way, if the hardware of the DB server takes a shit, we can quickly mount the filesystem Oracle lives on, and start it on another box.
They even said they would not have charged us a second license if we had a second machine powered off, which we brought up in the event of a hardware failure. They claimed that Oracle was providing us the benfit to be able to failover quickly. Umm, no, the network filer is. BEA doesn't charge us for this setup. iPlanet doesn't charge us for this setup. Why should you get to?
great! (Score:3, Redundant)
Then replace the proprietary Oracle with open source systems like Postgres and MySQL.
Now we're talking!
And then Ellison backed up his claims... (Score:2)
Re:And then Ellison backed up his claims... (Score:4, Interesting)
I remember when I worked for ZDNet in '96 we used to make fun of CNet, our main competitor at the time, for purchasing such general domain names. "What, do they think they own everything?"
A few years later, they bought ZDNet.
An astute move for Oracle, great for linux (Score:3, Insightful)
This should also go a long way towards bolstering the impression of Linux in the IT world. If Oracle is running linux, then it must be able to handle mission critical apps (so the agrument would go).
Natural Move for Server Vendors (Score:4, Insightful)
grain of salt (Score:2, Insightful)
One Question.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:One Question.. (Score:2)
Re:One Question.. (Score:2)
typo (Score:5, Insightful)
"We'll be on Linux no later than the summer, so we'll be running our whole business on Linux."
I think he meant to say: "We'll be owning Linux no later than the summer, so we'll be running the whole business of Linux." I can't really back that up, unless you take the fact that Larry Ellison said it as proof
Seriously, this would be good for Linux in the big picture. Most of us would stick with our MySQL and PostgreSQL servers, but with Oracle...Enterprise credibility goes up. Additionally, all the industry behemoths (AOL/TW, Oracle) would fare well to bolster Microsoft's competetors.
I might burn some Karma for saying this, but Linux is symbolically a pawn, being used by the giant corporations for leverage against their current giant corporation rivals.
I also wonder how market share affects this. Linux is growing in the server market. Oracle isn't being used in these machines. Which means less money for Ellison. I wonder how this will work out. Any suggestions?
This isn't a win for Linux... (Score:5, Insightful)
What he really liked, apparently, was the fact that the hardware was cheap and easily replaceable. It's a win for clustering, certainly, but is it a win for Linux?
Re:It definitely *is* a win for Linux (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:It definitely *is* a win for Linux (Score:3, Informative)
Mixed blessings. (Score:4, Insightful)
On one hand, having a larger user base is definately a GOOD THING. Proving that Linux can provide the infrastructure for one of the world's top companies is a GOOD THING.
Problems arise in the mid to long term possibilities. Will Sun ultimately lose so much business that they're driven out of the software market? Despite the fact that they seem to be sunsetting, they're still a software/OS player, and the more players in the field, the better the products (my belief is that Linux has achieved so much partly because it had Sun, SGI, Be, MS to prove itself against) all around. Its not like MS can provide Linux with any great technical challenges to overcome...
And am I alone in worrying that having so many big companies like IBM, Oracle, God forbid AOL/TW using Linux may end up with them pushing development away from the needs of the average user? Sorof like getting a loan from the Mafia, you never know when or how you're going to pay up.
It's 2009. And the sole corporate survivor... (Score:3, Funny)
successfully destroyed each other as they tried
to take down Windows.
It all started when Scott McNealy in a rash of
unintelligent banter retaliated toward
Oracle by announcing "oh yeah! Well... well...
Solaris will only be supporting Linux
from now on too!"
-J
A bit saddening... (Score:5, Insightful)
Reality is that traditional RISC-based workstations and servers, such as Sun's higher-end Ultra and Blade workstations, are really a joy to work with. They are amazingly robust and flexible, since they typically are the result of long and thorough development and testing efforts. They tend to have useful lifetimes of about a decade, where they keep finding new roles and finally get mothballed after enjoying a last hurrah as a print server. They have genuine firmware, so you don't have to jump through flaming hoops to bootstrap the system they way you want to. Their enclosures are very well engineered for easy maintainence, fewer moving parts, and good airflow. And on and on...
Whenever I see the inside of an Intel-based server, I am a bit disappointed. Working with one tends to be disappointing as well. Truth is: you do get what you pay for.
I hope Oracle doesn't learn too many hard lessons these next few years.
Linux != Intel (Score:3, Interesting)
and I want it now.
Why does your message leave me wondering if you
are aware that Linux runs on the very RISC machines you are praising?
Re:A bit saddening... (Score:3, Insightful)
Oracle already runs on linux... (Score:5, Interesting)
It seems from a lot of people's comments that they think that Larry is saying that Oracle will finally support Linux. Well, Oracle has run on Linux for awhile now, though it's been a lower priority. Patches come out for Solaris versions first, then Linux and Windows.
All Larry was saying that at Oracle they'll be running their own product on Linux rather than Solaris. From which we can presume that they'll start making Linux a higher priority when it comes to patching...
I think it's healthy (Score:3, Insightful)
This would probably force the big server makers to bring more innovation to the lineups and lowering the price.
So at the end, Linux gains more marketshares, Windows gets even less in the server market and probably lower TOC for those big servers.
Replacing HP boxes with... ? (Score:4, Interesting)
Take Larry with a MAJOR GRAIN OF SALT (Score:3, Interesting)
This isn't too say he's lying, but don't think Oracle is going to go chucking valuable platforms to back up his rhetoric.
Let's get this straight... (Score:4, Funny)
Oracle are saying that big servers will eventually die and be replaced by clusters of smaller servers running Linux.
IBM are saying that clusters of smaller servers will be replaced by mainframe-class servers running Linux.
Place your bets please, ladies and gentlemen.
Linux hurts UNIX vendors, not MS (Score:5, Interesting)
Switching to Linux, when all of your sysadmins know Windows, is going to cost in retraining. If your shop runs UNIX, the sysadmins will be ready to roll with Linux.
So, you see, those who tout Linux and decry Microsoft are really taking an ironic stance. They are helping MS (by hurting their competition) when they advocate Linux.
Replace Sun with PC, a win for MS at times (Score:3, Interesting)
Hmmmm.... (Score:2)
A cry in the dark (Score:4, Funny)
Programmers slouch in front of their computers...
And read these fateful words..
Spoken by their master...
Perhaps in haste and bravado...
We'll be on Linux no later than the summer,...
First there is silence...
Then, in one collective voice...
For all to hear...
"Oh shit!"
Ellison may be knifing his own baby (Score:3, Insightful)
By making this move, Larry will be exposing the high-end companies he courts to commodity technology ideas that they otherwise might not explore. Most of these companies have "more money than sense." Often they view free or open software with disdain for its percieved lack of support, or even for its percieved unAmerican philosophy. But after having their eyes opened in this fashion, they may start developing a keen awareness of how badly Oracle is screwing them.
At the least, Oracle may introduce to these companies a culture of thriftiness, which is probably not in Larry's best interest.
Why Sun will be preferable to Intel Clustering (Score:5, Informative)
Banks and others with lots of cash have traditionally enjoyed the "Let's buy a couple really really big boxes and replicate them everywhere" mindset and I don't think that will change. Clustering is way cool but I am not convinced the TCO is far less to cause large customers to switch their entire mission-critical, multi-billion dollar a day transactional systems to Linux.
They will stay with what works for a long, long time. Why Larry's pronouncement of 'support' is interesting is that Linux is, for the most part, unsupported. Sun has hundreds (if not more) of engineers around the world on standby -- if your E10K goes down at 4AM they probably know about it before you do (since they have all sorts of neat things built in) and are already on the scene. With Linux? Not so much -- but Oracle is going to try and push the fears of 'what if it goes down at 4am!' out of their minds by saying "That's ok, we can fix it!". Linux and Intel need to offer much of the same features - I know Compaq has neat little remote monitoring cards with their servers, something like that which hooks into Linux and is a commodity (like video cards, or RAID cards, etc.) would help a lot.
Yes, there is an inherent 'single point of failure' with big boxes. That is why they 'cluster' (in name only and not a special type of software) by replicating all their data from their master to several slaves. Currently Sun platform usually has MORE than ample room for growth and you buy 3 E15Ks simply to have warm-standby machines in case the first goes down (and you can always use the other two as readers).
From a TCO standpoint it is far easier, faster, and cheaper to replace a single machine (under warrantee) than it is to have 20 small ones go down at night. Yup - you need to have redundant supplies on hand for the 'worst' situation - and if you have 100 Linux boxes in a nice array and an earthquake hits you now have to order 100 new boxes to replace your destroyed ones. Sun can get you a replacement (or replacements) installed and configured long before the first truckload of new PCs arrives.
Further, you have to configure and maintain 100 boxes vs. a small cluster of Sun machines. I haven't had much experience in large-scale clustered Linux systems but I would surmise that making a kernel change on 100 Linux boxes would take more time and $$ than to 3 Sun machines.
Plus, Sun's 64 bit architecture beats the pants off of Intel -- and in a large DB app you NEED that extra I/O (which is why a 220R with 450MHz x 2 CPUs will spank any dual Intel system out there). I have yet to see any head-to-head comparisons of Itanium and UltraSparc III, so perhaps Intel can rip that from Sun someday.
So, what about Red Hat's version of Postgres? (Score:4, Interesting)
Uninformed comments... (Score:5, Informative)
These comments I could see in this article are the most stupid uninformed balast I've seen in a long time. Maybe its this way for all articles, but I know my ground here and can judge this.
O.R.A.C.L.E (Score:4, Insightful)
The true meaning of Oracle is:
One
Rich
Asshole
Called
Larry
Ellison
After reading all the posts (Score:4, Interesting)
1) Linux = Intel
2) Larry on Linux = Larry bids SUN and other UNIX vendors farewell
3) Why Oracle while we can get PSQL?
4) PSQL can *never* replace Oracle
5) It's a conspiracy! Larry wants to squeeze more from us because Oracle cost more on Intel platforms!!
I just speak from a DBA's standpoint, that:
1) As many has pointed out, Linux is not necessary = intel. Oracle being on Linux doesn't mean abandoning others.
2) If you have really admin/develop on Oracle you must know that Oracle relies heavily on Java, and Java is SUN's. I can only see Oracle and SUN would get more close than any other time in history.
3) & 4) PSQL can *not* beat Oracle now, if you get to know more about Oracle you'd understand how insufficient PSQL is. However, it doesn't mean PSQL, or any other DBMS, can't beat Oracle in the future. I still remember the day when Oracle 5 was regarded as 'cheap' and 'pathetic loser' among DBMS. Look at Solid DBMS, it goes from free to a very successful commercial DBMS in just a couple of year.
5) I failed to find a way to buy a cheaper Oracle for non-intel platforms, compare Mhz by Mhz.
My guess(again, from a DBA's view) is that Larry is not satisfying with the database business in midrange systems. Oracle works great on mainframe and it generates multi-billions profit, while it's always been a big trouble support midrange market because the variety is vast(you name it, SUN, AIX, HP-UX...all with lines of different hardware and software version). Compare to Linux it is relatively simple(note relatively).
Frankly I'm not sure whether Larry and his crews would like to use Linux to fight in midrange market, I'd really doubt about it not because I've little confidence in Linux, but because I felt that even Oracle staffs has then same attitude to Linux as those in Microsoft, that Linux is good for fighting below-midrange market. Of course, I'd disagree if they ask me - I run parallel-replicated Oracle server with Linux's load-balancing with RAID 5 and JFS. It's very depending on how many Linux developers/admins can support the midrange market.
Re:Hmmm... (Score:3, Interesting)
The answer is... (Score:2)
Re:Just more of... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:obvious (Score:3, Insightful)
Why do people assume that linux must kill everything else? Why wouldn't other OSes evolve as well?
I swear, linux zealots insist that monopolies are wrong and people have choices for the OS they run, but they want linux to be the only choice.
Re:50 on karma so here goes.... (Score:2)
Hell, it's news for him to even announce that they are going to try.
Re:50 on karma so here goes.... (Score:2)
Maybe Oracle and Sun aren't as snuggly as we all thought.
Canibalism (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, ironically, Linux is eating into Sun's market share, to the delight of OpenSource zealots, who decry Sun simply for being a for-profit corporation. I get the sense that many OpenSourcers are rooting against Sun, and I believe that's an entirely counter-productive position to take.
Microsoft is the enemy of OpenSource, not Sun. Sun may not have open-sourced Java and Solaris, but, hey, they need to make money just like everybody else. Sun has many OpenSource products and has contributed much to the community.
OpenSource and Linux will lose a great deal if Sun goes out of business, and not vice-versa.
Re:Canibalism (Score:4, Insightful)
> contriubuted a lot to the OpenSource community.
I don't disagree with you.
> Now, ironically, Linux is eating into Sun's
> market share, to the delight of OpenSource
> zealots, who decry Sun simply for being a
> for-profit corporation. I get the sense that
> many OpenSourcers are rooting against Sun, and I
> believe that's an entirely counter-productive
> position to take.
To say that Linux is eating into Sun's marketshare is to say that Sun is primarily a software company. It is my understanding that Sun is a Hardware company that provides certain software that is optimized for their hardware.
So, if Sun drops Solaris and adopts Linux, how can that be a loss? They can, after all, begin putting more of their development efforts into making Linux a more native OS for Sparc CPUs.
> Microsoft is the enemy of OpenSource,
Once again, I have to agree. OpenSource is the anathema of Microsoft's way of thinking.
> OpenSource and Linux will lose a great deal if
> Sun goes out of business, and not vice-versa.
Yep. No doubt about it. I figure that the days of UNIX differentiation are close to an end... the end of an era and the beginning of a new one. A beginning of a new time of easy interoperation which will benefit everyone - after all, Sun, IBM, HP, Compaq/Digital, SGI and all the rest can still make the High-End cutting edge hardware and software applications/middleware optimized for their hardware platform.
Maybe Sun can put even more effort into Java to make it faster - maybe even revisiting the hardware implementation angle. What about a drop-in Java Virtual Machine in hardware implemented on a PCI card or something?
Re:Canibalism (Score:3, Interesting)
Personally I think that with one exception (see below), the idea of hardware tailored for specific languages doesn't make much sense (although processors and languages have always had symbiotic relationships... C is a good example with its pre- and post increment operators that were there because the hardware of the day had support for that). In case of Java, chips for running java bytecode natively would have to be a stack machines, and those were tried decades ago (60s?), and were eventually decimated by register-based machines. And even though cache certainly helps with stacks, the idea of doing all operations in memory instead of registers... well, just doesn't sound like a good idea.
I don't know why even many Sun people were hinting at java chips being a solution; they _might_ make sense for low-end embedded systems, but not so much for performance but for price and simplicity. Perhaps those were mostly marketing people, and the basic idea of hardware solution being faster than software was tempting (not to mention the fact Sun is really a hardware company).
Now, there IS one hardware architecture development that could well help Java... and it is something both Sun (project "MAJC" or such?) and IBM are researching / developing; processor-level multi-threading. Basically, having multiple processor cores that could do "thread multiplexing", ie. schedule in instructions from different threads to same execution unit. This is possible for threads but since they share the same address space (and thus memory mapping and caches)... and might give nice boost. However, it appears to be still more a research project than actual production thing.
Re:I just hope McNealy doesn't bite back ... (Score:2, Funny)