Interview with Adam Di Carlo (Debian Boot) 150
robstah writes: "The installer is the heart of any Operating System, Debian is no different. The mature but ageing boot-floppies installer will rear its head for the last time in woody. In this interview with Adam Di Carlo, one of the lead developers of this system we investigate the past, present and future of the Debian installation system ready for the upcoming release of woody: The next generation of Debian."
Um... (Score:1)
--jon
boot floppies (Score:2, Informative)
The heart of any operating system? (Score:2, Interesting)
What I'd like to see is more install source options... perhaps the capability to mount Windows shares via smbmount to access the CDROM.
Re:The heart of any operating system? (Score:3, Interesting)
The "scratch", maybe?
Unless... could it be... Linux!?
Re:The heart of any operating system? (Score:1)
Satan? (Score:2, Funny)
Yes, but only for FreeBSD and NetBSD.
I think it would be better to call the installer.. (Score:2, Funny)
Re:I think it would be better to call the installe (Score:4, Funny)
Re:I think it would be better to call the installe (Score:1)
And then, once started in life, you never need/want to see them again.
Dinivin
Good analogy (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I think it would be better to call the installe (Score:1)
Actually, I can think of one other, but I'll keep slashdot clean
Do Not Fix What Isn't Broken (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand, what Debian really needs to do is enhance and extend the aforementions tasksel utility. Tasksel has the right idea, but it doesn't go far enough. It's not very extensive and it'd be nice to break things down into smaller groups without having to jump all the way over to dselect. For example, from tasksel, installing the TeX packages is clear, but maybe I want all the immediately necessary LaTeX components and not all the utilities that convert TeX to every other format imaginable for documents. But make this a hierarchial option that's hidden in tree form under this task. That'll give us more middle ground between tasksel and dselect.
Re:Do Not Fix What Isn't Broken (Score:4, Insightful)
Anyways, if debian is "perfect", as in it fits your needs with no complaint, more power to you. But for the rest of us, we appreciate the developer's hard work in trying to make a *really* good distrobution even better...
Re:Do Not Fix What Isn't Broken (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Do Not Fix What Isn't Broken (Score:1)
Well, let me point you to autoinstall [debian.org] instead then. It's done by Prodigy and although I've never seen it IRL, it's supposed to be quite cool.
Michael
Re:Do Not Fix What Isn't Broken (Score:2)
You likely are doing something horribly wrong as I've had hardly any problems with testing OR unstable. Don't rely on un-official "pre-Woody ISO's" for one. Some of them ARE broken, but that's not the Debian project's fault. Start out with the latest stable (2.2r4) for a base install and then switch the package source to testing/unstable and install via FTP or your own local archive of known-good packages. (also convenient if installing identically to multiple systems, which it appears you want to do)
Getting locked into cyclical traps of "this package depends on that one, but conflicts with another with depends on yet another which conflicts with.." is too common to be ignored. I shouldn't have to use dpkg to clear up messes like that, but I do.
Make sure you're using dselect to help you manage the dependancies. And remember, just because there's a more updated package that has just hit the unstable tree, doesn't mean you have to use it right away. It's really not as difficult as you make it out to be.
I'm a sysad at a company that is looking to switch to linux, and all I need to convince them to go with debian is come up with an automated installer.
If you're the sysadmin, why do they care how dumbed up the installer is?
No, you can do the same thing with Debian either by setting up your own archive as previously mentioned and/or by using the clone-debian script. You can also do it manually. It's not that hard. Or, if you really want to save some time installing multiple workstations, just clone the whole partition to each drive.
Don't get me wrong, I use debian for my personal workstation, but we're rolling out mandrake everywhere else...
It's better than nothing (or windows), but Mandrake is still a messy distro. For your own sake, reconsider that choice.
Re:Do Not Fix What Isn't Broken (Score:1)
Okay, I know I'm feeding the trolls, but... (Score:1)
As for me, I won't use Debian because the adsl package is fucked beyond belief.
Re:Okay, I know I'm feeding the trolls, but... (Score:1)
Anyway. Why rely on the adsl package? Roaring Penguin PPPoE (rp-pppoe) is a pretty solid package...configure, make, make install.
It's been rock solid for me.
-Ben
One Crummy Package is GREAT Justification to Drop. (Score:2)
# make install
I spent 1/2 an hour fiddling with the Debian pppoe package, and concluded it was a much better idea to punt over to David Skoll's original version.
I did a make install , answered the questions, and my firewall has been up 64 days since the last time I moved the machine, and it works like a charm.
Considering the entire distribution as worm-fodder just because one package hasn't turned out well is about as logical as deciding Windows is wonderful because the BSOD is a particularly nice shade of blue.
Installing X is Broken (Score:2, Insightful)
In fact, that's probably the biggest reason Linux isn't ready for the desktop. Once you get a system set up and configured right, it's fairly easy to use, particularly with KDE and GNOME these days, but if you can't get your system to that point then it's all for naught. Remember that not everyone has a local geek and Linux pretty much never comes preinstalled.
Re:Do Not Fix What Isn't Broken (Score:1)
Also, as the article states, it does not handle problems very well.
All in all, the debian boot floppies handle installations admirally, but ther'ye past their sell by date, and the new debian-installer should make a wonderfully addition.
Re:Do Not Fix What Isn't Broken (Score:1)
Fix it! Please! (Score:2, Informative)
Debian is a wonderful distribution (even for new users, now) once you've got it running, but if you think any "entry level users" can sit down at a Debian installation and have the slightest hope of getting through it successfully, you're deluding yourself.
Re:Fix it! Please! (Score:1)
Re:Do Not Fix What Isn't Broken (Score:2, Informative)
I've read discussion on debian-boot, where joeyh stated that aptitude would advance into base and replace dselect. This got reflected in aptitude's latest ChangeLog, but I don't know if it will really happen. Anyway, aptitude is a lot nicer than dselect.
On the other hand, what Debian really needs to do is enhance and extend the aforementions tasksel utility. Tasksel has the right idea, but it doesn't go far enough.
I'm sad to tell you that we dropped old-style tasks for woody and did a new implementation. This is not bad, but it seems tasks got tidied up quite a bit and there are fewer around now.
Michael
Re:Do Not Fix What Isn't Broken (Score:2)
It seems
Anyway, I jumped the gun on this; the release manager decided that fiddling with base just before a release was too risky, and so this is not, as far as I can tell, happening.
The only change necessary, though (AIUI) is to tell debootstrap to download aptitude along with the base packages. (if aptitude is installed with base, the initial configuration process will offer it as an option) If boot-floppies is buildable by mere mortals in woody (haven't tried recently), this would be fairly trivial to do. I think.
(also, there is no chance that aptitude will entirely replace dselect any time soon; if nothing else, there are some people who like dselect)
Daniel
Re:Do Not Fix What Isn't Broken (Score:2)
Debian has the worst installer of any operating system I have ever used.
Even FreeBSD has a more user-friendly installer
Re:Do Not Fix What Isn't Broken (Score:1)
Got it with a text-book last year...YUCK. The OS may be a good 'learner', but the install...YUCK!
-Ben
Re:Do Not Fix What Isn't Broken (Score:1)
Re:Do Not Fix What Isn't Broken (Score:3, Informative)
And people who don't believe him should consider the fact that "getting boot-floppies into shape" has been (if we can trust my memory) a MAJOR cause of delays in the last two releases.
(this is not to fault Adam, who does wonderful work, but rather to emphasize that the code is just too fragile to be kept alive)
Daniel
installer not broken, but content is (Score:1)
Many dialog boxes I have seen do not have a clear objective: you need to read thru the entire text of the dialog box before you understand what your options are. The dialog boxes really should have a clear question as a heading, then a paragraph explaining which option you might choose, then buttons allowing you to select an option.
The current installer has a distinct feel that the text for each section was written by a different person. For a distribution that has the most stringent standards on most other topics (keybindings, file hierarchy, and so on), the installer should have clearer guidelines.
(Most of my experience is with potato.)
The Installer is... (Score:3, Funny)
otherwise known as...
ahem...
ah... lets not go there...
Solaris 8 Intel Installer (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Solaris 8 Intel Installer (Score:1)
Re:Solaris 8 Intel Installer (Score:1)
But then again, I once installed it on my ultra over the serial port. You don't know pain until you try that...
Re:Solaris 8 Intel Installer (Score:2)
Re:Solaris 8 Intel Installer (Score:1)
On the other hand when I tried to install Debian I got stopped at can't find "/images-1.44/compact/rescue.bin" even though I was installing from a bootable cd-rom.
eramm
Policies essential, installer incidental (Score:4, Interesting)
What makes the difference in a distro is the set of policies and procedures that make the distro something recognizable. If those are comprehensive, enforced, and automated enough, it becomes possible to trust the distro from release to release.
The infrastructure of the Debian distro has flowered as the "apt-get" tool and its related GUI applications (gnome-apt, aptitude, deity). Apt-get makes a Debian system far easier to maintain, and keep up to date and secure, than any other. Debian policies and package tools make it possible to use safely. Apt-get without all the infrastructure beneath would be too dangerous to trust.
For more detail on the topic, see the Advogato posting [advogato.org].
Re:Policies essential, installer incidental (Score:1)
Re:Policies essential, installer incidental (Score:1)
The installer is incidental. Debian users run it once, and never again.
Well, my job [freegeek.org] is to teach newbies how to build computers out of old parts and install linux on them. From my point of view, the installer could get used *a lot*.
At home, however, I agree with you. You get it installed and then forget about the installer. But my point is, the installer will be quite important in some situations.
Re:Policies essential, installer incidental (Score:1)
That's not to say the installer (or the kernel) are not necessary and important. Rather, if the installer is all that at distinguishes the distribution, that's one sorry excuse for a distribution.
Bare bones CD-ROM installation media. (Score:2, Insightful)
For my first 2.2. installation I put the drivers.tgs and the base2_2.tgz on my existing windows partition then just used the boot/root disks to do the install. This was nice; and I did something similar on two machines which were shipped to me w/ a RedHat installation on them.
But... what do you do when you don't have an existing OS on there? After some thinking I put together my own
How 'bout it Debian team... a ~20MB
Justin Buist
Re:Bare bones CD-ROM installation media. (Score:1)
Secondly, there are ton of "net install ISOs" out there that people have made, for potato, woody and even sid. Ask on #debian on OPN, or do a search on google. They're there.
Re:Bare bones CD-ROM installation media. (Score:1)
I don't see why the debian team doesn't just release some iso's and allow a few people to download them and mirror them for everyone..
many people that I try to convince to use debian are put off by the lack of official, bootable install cd's.
Once debian gets bootable install cd's and a newbie user installer, I see it taking off and becoming very popular due to the superior package management and the fact that they don't put a lot of the crap that redhat, mandrake, et al. insist on installing whether you want it or not..
Re:Bare bones CD-ROM installation media. (Score:1)
Re:Bare bones CD-ROM installation media. (Score:1)
Re:Bare bones CD-ROM installation media. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Bare bones CD-ROM installation media. (Score:1)
Using the pseudo-image kit (even on Windows) is at least as easy as actually installing Linux (read instructions, follow instructions - I get the impression Debian is aimed at people who can read instructions, so that suits them fine).
The resulting CD is bootable and works fine (and once you've finished with it, its bootability, built-in root FS and utilities make it a nice rescue disk).
Re:Bare bones CD-ROM installation media. (Score:2)
Daniel
Re:Bare bones CD-ROM installation media. (Score:1)
Re:Bare bones CD-ROM installation media. (Score:2)
Daniel
Which boot? (Score:2, Funny)
Great work and all that, we really appreciate what you've done. Now, I'd really like to know which boot you put on first thing in the morning, is the right foot or the left foot? Have you ever put your boots on the wrong feet before?
Thanks!.
P.S.: What do you think of RedBoot [redhat.com] (It's for embedded devices)?
Re:Which boot? (Score:1)
Dinivin
Boot Floppies aren't "aging"! (Score:3, Interesting)
1) You don't have to configure the machine to boot from CD, then remember to turn that back off in the BIOS when you are done.
2) HTTP or NFS access across a 10Base-T is about equal to a 10 spin CD-ROM - across a 100Base-t its faster than all but the most top of the line DVDROM drives.
3) Start one install, as soon as the machine boots remove floppy, insert into next machine, and repeat.
Don't get me wrong - I like CD installs for single machine environments. But I ALWAYS have the latest copy of RedHat exported from my server in the basement - makes it a lot easier when rolling a firewall/scratch machine/whatever.
Re:Boot Floppies aren't "aging"! (Score:4, Informative)
That said, the installer can and will still work with floppies, CD-ROMs, NFS, HTTP/FTP and whatnot.
Re:Boot Floppies aren't "aging"! (Score:3, Funny)
Somewhat similar to saying "I finally got my woodie up" in the general public.
Re:Boot Floppies aren't "aging"! (Score:1)
Say what? (Score:1, Redundant)
OT: Debian mozilla 0.9.6 anti-aliases!! (Score:1, Offtopic)
$ LD_PRELOAD=libgdkxft.so mozilla
Enjoy a jaggy-less web experience!
-adnans
Debian Anyone? (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Debian Anyone? (Score:1)
Never used suse, since rpm pisses me off. I've used mandrake and redhat, dunno how different thay are.
What's up with all the emphasis on installers anyway? How often do you people reinstall your OS? Damn, I've got 5 machines running in here and haven't installed any OS in months.
Re:Debian Anyone? (Score:1)
Wanna why? Well, just try to install stable on some less than 1 year old hw or unstable (woody) instead.
I did it on a P4, a P3 a P2 all kind of hardware, you can even make your own Boot disks to install it.
Use their mailing list to ask for help, because the installation is all fscked up. The next thing you want to do after reading the answers you get are getting is ordering your copy of SuSe
One thing is to have a BAD installer and other is not TO READ THE DOCS, thats a capital offence hence the answer you get.
The bottom line is, you want an easy installer or you want to have control on what you install?
Best Way to do a Debian Install (Score:4, Informative)
1. Download and write to floppy the image-1.44/compact disks (rescue, root, and driver-1).
2. Boot with Rescue in.
3. Follow the directions.
DHCP makes this a blast and you're into Dselect (or tasksel if you want) within fifteen minutes at most. You end up download much less than an entire ISO in most cases, and it's better because you're always going to get the latest packages.
If you have to do an install on multiple machines, download the entire tree for your distro onto one machine, and set it up as a server with FTP or somesuch so that APT can access that local machine as a repository. Over 100baseTX, it takes no time at all to do an install (after all, a fast hard drive over ethernet is probably faster than your cdrom drive is anyways
There are also ReiserFS boot disks available now that will let you get up and running with a great journalling filesystem from scratch, with the selection of one simple option.
I found the Debian installer much easier to use than Red Hat's, and much more powerful than Mandrake's.
Give it a try! You won't go back!
Re:Best Way to do a Debian Install (Score:1)
The interview mentiones that there are even EXT3-disks available now.
Michael
Re:Best Way to do a Debian Install (Score:2)
The link is on the official XFS site.
How do you know the floppy drive works? (Score:1)
1. Download and write to floppy the image-1.44/compact disks (rescue, root, and driver-1).
You forgot 0. Buy a floppy drive. Many computers I encounter have broken floppy drives that damage disks.
Re:How do you know the floppy drive works? (Score:1)
I Prefer to do it this way as it's much quicker too. Add the base.tgz + drivers and you can get a base system up and running in no time at all.
That's how I installed on my laptop without a floppy drive.
Option for experienced users? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Option for experienced users? (Score:2)
Daniel
Graphical installer? (Score:1)
In other words, we'll see a graphical Debian installer around 2010 or so?
Re:Graphical installer? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, they do have long release cycles, but why exactly do you want a graphical installer anyway?
I've never quite understood this point. Bringing up the GUI early in the install process adds a bunch of complexity and failure cases, and to my mind anyway, doesn't really add any functionality.
What features of an installer do you have in mind that can be accomplished within a GUI but not with a text-based UI? And don't say "to impress people who confuse pretty with advanced" - why the **** should we care about their opinions?
One thing might be "to fit a reasonable amount of information on one screen" - which is why I boot with "vga=1" meaning 80x50 cells, and I think this should be made the default on boot-floppies, although I understand why it isn't (it would screw over those .001% of users that don't have VGA-compatible video cards or BIOSes).
This is like those BIOS setup screens that come with icon boxes, scroll bars and PS/2 mouse support. Does anyone find them easier to use than the venerable text-based BIOS setup screens? I don't. I find them confusing. Easy-to-use does not imply graphical, or vice versa.
Re:Graphical installer? (Score:1)
Debian perfect? (Score:1)
1. Partition
2. Setup Swap
3. Select packages
4. Install
5. Configure fstab/gpm/timezone/etc.
Yes, dependencies are something that never existed in Slackware, but I never found it difficult to deal with. http://linuxmafia.org is a big help to get the binaries, in case u aren't in the mood to get on to a compilation spree, immediately, or are just in a hurry to get a package.
The FreeBSD ports system is great, and I think i heard someone mention it for linux in an earlier
which can be downloaded from http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/gnu-darwin/por
Slackware is getting better and better by the day, and I've seen very few Slackware users, that I know, who've switched to any other distribution, lately. The install follows the KISS philosophy, and its as fast as it gets, and relatively easy to the newbie, and more importantly gets the system ready, for more hacking.
The "heart"? (Score:2, Interesting)
OK, then: the heart of my new NetBSD system would be tar(1), because that's about as close as I got to an installer while setting it up.
maby this would help (Score:1)
Re:maby this would help (Score:1)
Re:maby this would help (Score:2)
Yup... no finding and downloading packages... no worrying about dependancies... no recompiling stuff by hand... just one command on the command line, and apt does all the work for 'ya. That's why I run Debian. Furthermore, whenever a newer version of any program you have installed comes out, apt will download and update it for you.
Frankly, if there's a means of making this model easier, I just don't see it.
Really useful feature to add (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Really useful feature to add (Score:1)
I'd imagine it wouldn't require a huge amount of work to do this. Debian being my alltime favorite, it's not a bad idea to hope... I hope
Installer? Huh? (Score:1)
*blink* (Score:1)
I blame mozilla!
Re:*blink* (Score:1)
Re:Eeek, dselect in sight! (Score:1)
Good thing we dumped it in favor of aptitude then, huh? :)
And please make the CD bootable
They _are_ bootable generally.
Michael
Re:Eeek, dselect in sight! (Score:1)
they just need to get out there and see how """normal""" people think.
Last time that I checked, we were normal people. Unfortunately, Debian isn't like the "other guys" in that we don't have either people with extensive UI design background nor have we consulted with expensive usability experts (and I use that term loosely...hence the expensive argument).
I, myself, am rather tired of people taking shots at the installer without providing specific feedback on how to make it better. All that I ever hear is people saying such constructive comments like "it sucks" or "it's confusing", which do not help improve the situation. Perhaps one of the critics should sit down with someone from the install team (or the whole team via phone) and hammer out a better UI for installation. Hell, consider this a challenge to anyone who doesn't like Debian's installer to improve it with us.
I've been in this field for too many years to count at this point, and I have never been confused by Debian's install process. I'm not ignorant enough to think other should be like me, but I do feel that the apparent complexity of the install process as it is today provides folks like me with more options and let's us get our system installed the way that we like it the first time (rather than having to go back and remove or upgrade 75% of the packages like I have to do with some RH systems that have been in my charge professionally). I'm all for providing a simpler interface with an option to get more advanced for people like me, but until someone steps up and helps streamline the process rather than waiting for the existing Debian folks to fix it without input (and criticise when things don't change enough for their liking), then you may be waiting a very long time.
Bear in mind that the entire Debian distribution is produced by volunteers, not some company with investors and/or revenue. Most of what we get accomplished is done without corporate support at all (95% of the potato alpha distribution, for example, compiled on my personal system that I paid for and keep on the net at my own expense). Donations usually only encompass hardware, which is made available to the developers as a whole and rarely (if at all) include services such as UI design or development assistance with regards to hardware (hardware docs, etc).
In short, I'm no huge fan of our installer, but it serves its purpose and does it well with very few bugs that the user sees (behind the scenes is another story...it's a pain to add new archs to the existing system). Hell, I personally thank Adam for doing such a good job given the flawed initial design of the boot-floppies system.
Re:Eeek, dselect in sight! (Score:1)
I'll promise to send at least a case report the next time I install Debian (probably the latest 2.2r4), although I'm not a Debian virgin anymore...
Aptitude is definitely much nicer than dselect, but still not intuitive enough, in my opinion.
Generally, I'd recommend at least mimicking the UI of other installers and package managers. Not that any of them are really good, but they are at least much easier to use than dselect, aptitude, or *eek* command-line apt-get. You don't have to hire a horde of UI specialists if you just borrow the work of Microsoft's/Redhat's/SuSE's/Mandrake's horde. Copying UI concepts is what made MS Windows, KDE, and many others very successful. Stealing ideas is good. It's building on other people's work, exactly what the basic idea of Free Software is.
Graphical UI would help a lot, as you can make it much more eye-friendly with colors, fonts, and graphics, and have more freedom in doing the layout.
When upgrading packages, I'd recommend to make it totally non-interactive (at least by default).
I really like Debian because of the relatively well working package system, and will definitely install it also as my next workstation distro, probably quite soon.
Re:Eeek, dselect in sight! (Score:2)
The most useful definition of "intuitive" I've ever heard is "whatever the speaker or writer of 'intuitive' likes"
*eek* command-line apt-get
apt-get is a very useful tool, for what it's meant to do. There's nothing majorly wrong with it, except that it's not intended to browse the full set of packages, which is what most of us want to do sooner or later
(I wouldn't put "eek" before mentioning how hard it is to drive nails with a screwdriver, personally..YMMV (of course, there aren't any mobs of screwdriver fans roaming the streets telling you to drive nails with them, but I digress))
Graphical UI would help a lot, as you can make it much more eye-friendly with colors, fonts, and graphics, and have more freedom in doing the layout.
Adding a graphical UI to aptitude would require a near-complete rewrite, unfortunately, and there's a very practical need/use for a text-mode package manager that doesn't scare young children above the age of, say, 3.
I've thought from time to time about doing a GUI apt frontend, building on what I've learned from aptitude, but I've decided that I'd have to either (a) give away aptitude or (b) get a full-time job before attempting it.
I've heard synaptic is rather nice. I wasn't terribly impressed, but they have implemented one of my long-standing todo items, visual construction of filter terms. Newbies would probably like this more than typing ~b~D(~vhelix)
When upgrading packages, I'd recommend to make it totally non-interactive (at least by default).
Yes, this would be nice in many circumstances. Unfortunately, dpkg needs to be redesigned a bit first AIUI
However, proper use of debconf should severely cut down on interaction (emphasis on "proper")
Daniel
Re:Eeek, dselect in sight! (Score:2)
Yum, I'm a gang now?
I guess getting armchair criticism from an AC on
Cheers,
Daniel
dselect (Score:1)
Once you get to know it its really good, there are probably 4 or 5 alternative GUI's about, but i still use dselect 90% of the time, sometimes even over apt-get (more info).
CD *is* bootable (Score:1)
Re:XFree86 4.x (Score:1)
Re:XFree86 4.x (Score:1)
1) I had woody on all my servers since febrary, maximum uptime, not problems with the packages, etc..
2) There are Woody ISO'sp hp?sid=207 [debianplanet.org]
Go see http://www.debianplanet.org/debianplanet/article.
Re:XFree86 4.x (Score:1)
(I'm using unstable at the moment, the only serious instability I've noticed is the nvidia X driver which Debian have nothing to do with)