Kernel Configuration As An Adventure 171
brent_linux writes: "ESR has developed a new kernel configuration system called CML2. Recently (as in yesterday) he posted to the kernel mailing list that he had added a new configuration for Expert Users. This new interface follows the interface developed from the old infocom text based adventure games. Commands such as 'look,' 'nearby,' and 'go' are used to navigate and options are items that you 'take' or 'put.' Check out the mailing list for his messages or download CML2 for yourself and check it out."
it offers the `quirks' of adventure games, too! (Score:5)
It won't budge.
> take SCSI
Seriously, it is not going to move an inch.
> take SCSI
You try, but it won't move.
> take SCSI
It moves a little!
> take SCSI
SCSI: taken.
-- Robert
make zorkconfig? (Score:2)
Kernel Panic (Score:2)
So does this mean... (Score:1)
...that you might be able to execute a series of obscure actions and get babelfish integrated into your kernal?
--
I watched the LInux Kernel Summit (Score:3)
There was some discussion as to why it had to be in Python. ESR said it could be done in C, but he declined to do it, since it would be _hard_. At any rate, it will be sweet when there is logic checking in the kernel and it won't be possible to start compilation of an invalid configuration - the idea is that with this logic, whatever you make will _boot_.
Now is they can just decrease my compile times from 20 minutes to under 1 minute...
It was the next natural step... (Score:4)
It was the next natural step after the Kill -9 With a Doom Shotgun [slashdot.org] article from some time ago, I guess...
The next step will be have to be a lemmings-based office application, or maybe a combat flight simulator-based intrusion detection system.
New compiler (Score:4)
You are in a series of twisty, turning tunnels, all alike
Damn, they really DID update GCC.
Heh... (Score:2)
Great way to get new users... (Score:1)
(Just wait until after they buy before telling them it's not QUITE like Diablo...)
It doesn't look decent... (Score:3)
There is a row of buttons on the wall of this room. They read:
X86, ALPHA, SPARC32, SPARC64, MIPS32, MIPS64, PPC, M68K, ARM, SUPERH, IA64, PARISC, S390, S390X, CRIS
The button marked X86 is pressed.
>take lantern
Lantern: taken.
>enter SPARC64
You are now in SPARC64 kernel, process.c is staring at you in its cage.
>look process.c
arch/sparc64/kernel/process.c:
(Actual quote from grepping 2.2.17 source)
 _
some comments on the new adventure (Score:4)
esr has some ideas planned for future versions, see your cml2-1.6.2/TODO.
when esr first posted to the kernel list the announcement for this new feature, I posted a reply to him on lkml along the lines of "_WAY_ too much time on your hands, dont you have some linux advocacy to be doing?
for those of you ready to take the jump to cml2, it is available at http://tuxedo.org/~esr/cml2/. You will need python2 (RedHat PowerTools has an RPM, Debian has a DEB in stable) to use it. you will also need tkinter2 if you want to use `make xconfig'. installation is simple.
i was one of the people initially against cml2 on lkml (i didnt want to install python2, i didnt think cml1 was broken -- and hence we were created problems) but now i am pretty impressed by cml2. its still not a must, imo, but i like it. it should be integrated in 2.5.2.
give it a try.
-- Robert
Zork Kernel (Score:5)
There is a device driver code fragment here.
> take code
code taken
> compile code
the code is buggy it will not compile
> debug code
You try and debug the code but fall asleep.
> drink jolt
jolt drunk.
> debug code
You spend the next several hours debugging the code.
The Lantern grows dim.
The Lantern goes out.
The code is debugged.
It is dark.
> N
You are eaten by a gnu, you are dead.
Boss! I'm not playing games! (Score:3)
Oh yes, this is a Quake front end.
 _
Re:ESR wrong (Score:1)
MSFT: $70.69 (+23%)
LNUX: $3.28 (-74%)
Surely you mean 6/13/2001... or was ESR trying to predict the past?
---
Re:It was the next natural step... (Score:1)
The natural cheap shot... (Score:1)
The next step will be have to be a lemmings-based office application, or maybe a combat flight simulator-based intrusion detection system.
Lemmings-based office application? Ya know, Microsoft already has some office based applications that depend on lemmings buying them... It shouldn't be much of a streach from there.
(Ok, I don't normally take pot shots at Microsoft (they have treated me well on the only deal I've done with them), but I had to...)
...and I'm STILL stuck on the Heart of Gold ... (Score:1)
Oregon|Kernel Trail (Score:1)
Sample "Kernel Trail" Dialog Box
You need a new driver for your SCSI card, your wife hasn't seen you in a week, your kids call you "the guy in the other room on the computer"
Would you like to:
A) recompile the kernel and then hope it works again.
B) Shutdown and do it later.
C) Use a sledgehammer cause the fscking computer just won't work the way you want it to
D) get a divorce and give the wife custody of the kids.
Maybe I'm onto something... maybe let kids play this one in school... heh
Steve
Re:some comments on the new adventure (Score:4)
Great.... (Score:1)
Re:It was the next natural step... (Score:1)
Kernel Configuration already too easy. (Score:1)
Re:it offers the `quirks' of adventure games, too! (Score:1)
what a waste! (Score:1)
Re:some comments on the new adventure (Score:1)
Re:it offers the `quirks' of adventure games, too! (Score:5)
A Jack Valenti steals your
> use decss
The Jack Velenti is stunned.
You are attacked by a large band of corporate lawyers!
> take udf
udf: taken
A corporate lawyer hits you for 5 years!
A corporate lawyer hits you for 6 years!
A corporate lawyer hits you for 3 years!
A corporate lawyer hits you for 7 years!
A corporate lawyer hits you for 5 years!
A corporate lawyer hits you for 5 years!
You are eaten by a corporate lawyer!
Game Over
Re:So does this mean... (Score:1)
> hit 3c507
The driver vanishes in a cloud of greasy black smoke.
>
Re:Thank God you can choose NOT to use it (Score:1)
Right click on the little sucker, click options, un-click the checkbox "Use the Office Assistant" or whatever the hell it is. I do it on every fresh install and I never see the little bastard again.
Compile for the Z-machine? (Score:3)
Actually, this might be practical... (Score:2)
The point is, that Microsoft's interface is pretty interactive. Most sysadmin types that I know (windows or nix) prefer text-based interfaces because of the control, flexibility, and the ability to use scripts to make life easier. As a MS SQL Server admin I rarely use the GUI for anything but the simplest tasks.
The downside of the text interface is it's lack of interactivity and visual representation. In reality, there's no reason why one couldn't make the experience adventure-like. You could have verbosity levels, which would be great for novices and training situations; once you advanced in ability, you could turn down the verbosity (or it could automatically turn it down based on its own assessment of your skills as an admin). Unfortunately, everyone is having such a blast making the same Infocom jokes that they don't bother to realize that this might be a useful idea.
Rest assured, Bill Gates is not spending his time making campy "for the fun of it" user interfaces. This infocom thing might be a funny idea, but think of the CTO who reads about ESR and his thoughts on open source, and starts to consider implementing it, then sees this is how ESR spends his time. It only re-inforces the non-professional image that Microsoft is trying to portray of Open Source.
Speaking as someone under Microsoft's thumb, I hate it at times. And yet, every new release of their software has some truly amazingly useful features that sell the product very well. I get a kick out of this fun stuff, but it ain't gonna sell with my boss, nor his boss, nor his boss, the CTO.
ESR, sorry man, but if you're serious, it's time to change. You can't beat Bill Gates with geek subculture. And while you're doing that, Gates' army is charging, on a mission.
-----------------------
Re:some comments on the new adventure (Score:4)
ESR says in his info page that such a thing already exists and is one of the reasons he chose Python in the first place. He mentions that a kernel source tarball could be distributed with a compiled version of the CML2 interpreter.
Insightful (?) observations (Score:1)
Keys = root password
Grate = firewall
Dwarves/pirate/grues = virii
Lamp=Watch/debug
Re:some comments on the new adventure (Score:1)
http://www2.linuxjournal.com/cgi-bin/frames.pl/
Something I came across as I was messing with a Wiki today.
Been There...? (Score:1)
I'm not a kernel hacker, but hasn't this already been done with the Adventure shell, and a few others which are based off of MUDs?
Then again, I guess that it's based off the the Infocom games, so that makes it slightly different. After all, it'll bring back memories to 'get babelfish' and 'put towel over head.'
But, darn, you gotta watch for them Grues....
---
Chief Technician, Helpdesk at the End of the World
Re:I watched the LInux Kernel Summit (Score:1)
Re:Necesary? (Score:3)
Maybe if you would just bring it a shrubbery? A nice one, not too big...
Courtesy of xscreensaver/hacks/screenhack.h, and reprinted 'cause it's so damn funny and this is a worthy article:
Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!
Re:some comments on the new adventure (Score:1)
Re:what a waste! (Score:1)
Of course this isn't the same but it's simlar.
Also this is part of the fun of linux that keeps people here!
Re:Zork Kernel - Walkthrough! (Score:1)
The Lantern grows dim.
The Lantern goes out.
The code is debugged.
It is dark.
What are you doing, debugging with the lights on? :-) Also, from a walkthrough [force9.co.uk] for Infocom's "The Lurking Horror":
"Some notes about the game before we start, TURN OFF the FLASHLIGHT when you are in lighted areas to conserve the batteries, I won't mention this is the solution. When and where you start getting tired will vary depending upon the number of moves you've made. So when you are told that you are getting tired go back to the kitchen in the computer block and drink from the bottle of Coke which you will find in the refrigerator."
Later on, it gives instructions on how to get the hacker to repair your filesystem, and borrow his valuable master key for some Chinese food.
I sure hope ESR has implemented these features...
I'd like to see that for BSD (Score:1)
But the Linux kernel already had that.
Is there a change to see CML2 ported to BSD kernels ? I love BSD, but kernel configuration is something I really hate on these systems. It's very difficult and non user-friendly.
Re:Actually, this might be practical... (Score:3)
ESR was doing this more out of a desire to show what can be done with his nifty creation than to show what should be done. Apparently he wrote the entire interface on an airplane trip.
The cool part is that this particular interface is one of four that use his Python based backend configurator whatsit. In othe words the underlying software is designed to be useful, and the Zork interface only shows how flexible and powerful it is (and how easy it is to modify it so that it does what you would like).
And before you get all high and mighty about Microsoft and their business attitude, just remember that it was the folks at Microsoft that included a useable flight simulator in Excel. Compared to that particular stunt this hack is nothing. At least ESR's Zork kernel configurator is still useful as a kernel configuration tool.
Re:Actually, this might be practical... (Score:2)
IF people are doing this not for fun that what are they going to code open source for? Profit?
The fun is all part of it. It gives people drive to do better.
Even MS does it with the likes of "clippy" and his being out of a job. It's call fun and even MS knows how to have some.
I suggest you go read this book call "PC Roadkill" you'll find that inside MS there is more fun then you think. They are not all just money hungry spwans of evil.
Re:Actually, this might be practical... (Score:2)
If a CTO wants "professional" Linux, they can pay RedHat or some other services company for it, and good luck to them. But that's no reason that the rest of us can't enjoy it the way we have been all along.
Me, I'm happy to live in a world where I can configure and use Linux in business during the day, and laugh about ESR's antics after work. The guy's an inspiration and a good indication of the level of energy and inventiveness going into the platform. If that spirit of playful curiosity remains, it won't take long to defeat however many billions of dollars worth of business ambition, consumer disregard, FUD, and greed.
Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!
Re:Been There...? (Score:2)
I'm not a kernel hacker, but hasn't this already been done with the Adventure shell, and a few others which are based off of MUDs?
This is a configuration tool, not a command shell.
Then again, I guess that it's based off the the Infocom games, so that makes it slightly different. After all, it'll bring back memories to 'get babelfish' and 'put towel over head.'
I just hope it isn't more like 'computer, range is 360, theta is 150, phi is 30.'
But, darn, you gotta watch for them Grues....
Count yourself lucky you're not likely to come across any kobolds or paskalds. They're Red Purple Black Purple Red, through and through.
Chief Technician, Helpdesk at the End of the World "I am an IT-Goth and an Adept of Tantric VAX."
Hmm... is an IT-Goth like an Ur-Grue? :-)
> WEAR BOOTS
They are nice. You are likely to be hit on by a Goth...
Re:I'd like to see that for BSD (Score:2)
device agp
which was necessary for me to get my work laptop happy with X.
I actually prefer the one-bigass-textfile config approach, but, of course, YMMV.
Made for the Web, too. (Score:2)
One of the reasons that Windows is easy to install and configure (or seemingly so, anyway) is that Microsoft have insulated users from the gory technical details of thier hardware via friendly, easy to use, really hard to fsck up Wizards. So, if a vendor chooses, they write a Web front end that accepts the serial #. The vendors' database pulls up what was installed in that machine (CPU type, Chipsets, RAM, Disk etc.) and the CML2 Builder Web Page creates a custom kernel script, downloads it to the boxen and cranks up gcc. (Maybe XML would help?)Third party cards may be a problem - don't know how to make additions to machines newbie-proof.
All in all, I like this. And I'm sure the game interface could still be used in a browser. I haven't had the pleasure of meeting a Grue, but that damned Twonky...
Re:make zorkconfig? (Score:2)
Re:what a waste! (Score:2)
Yeah, but if we were the kind of programmers who could resist the temptation to play with "useless hacks", we would have taken the job at Microsoft in the first place.
Re:it offers the `quirks' of adventure games, too! (Score:4)
Epic battle with Bill Gates! (Score:3)
- look
Kernel Core
You are standing in the center of the most magnificent room you have ever seen. The chamber is enormous, with huge data shunts rising up from the floor as far as the eye can see, finally disappearing into the blackness above. Doorways, crawlway entrances, and ladders abound, each labeled with their destination and purpose.
Linus, Savior of Mankind is here. He wields a Text Editor in one hand and a copy of "C Programming for Dummies" in the other.
You see exits leading out, in, north, south, east, west, northeast, northwest, southeast, southwest.
- greet linus
You greet Linus, Savior of Mankind with a sincere smile.
-
Linus sees you and smiles warmly. "Welcome to the Linux kernel! Please note that this is an experimental version, so it's not entirely stable yet."
-
Linus takes a Text Editor from a burlap sack.
-
Linus gives you a Text Editor.
-
"Please feel free to use this tool to add to and/or repair the Kernel. Enjoy your time here!"
-
Bill Gates, Dark Lord of Everything That Is Evil wanders in from the west.
-
Bill Gates greets you with a sincere smile.
-
Bill Gates says, "Just looking for some new code ideas to "innovate" into the new Windows Anti-Christ Edition. Remember, 'ALL YOUR CODE ARE BELONG TO US'!"
-
Bill Gates removes a simple oaken pipe from a burlap sack.
-
Bill Gates removes a tinderbox from a burlap sack.
-
Bill Gates removes some marijuana from a burlap sack.
-
Bill Gates places some marijuana in a simple oaken pipe.
-
Bill Gates lights a simple oaken pipe until it is smoking nicely.
-
Bill Gates takes a long drag off a simple oaken pipe.
-
You see an aura of ultimate destruction appear around Bill Gates.
-
Bill Gates laughs evilly.
-
Bill Gates holds up his hand, closes his eyes, and begins to chant strangely.
-
Mystic energies swirl beautifully before your eyes.
-
Without warning, the energies converge into strange apparations, in the shape of flying windows, and float evilly in the air around you.
-
Suddenly, the strange apparitions rush at you with terrifying speed, ripping into your soul and shattering your mind.
-
You bleed 666 health.
-
You have been slain by Bill Gates.
You have played 8 games so far.
Thank you for playing 'make adventure'!
For those of you who are knocking the concept ... (Score:3)
Re:Made for the Web, too. (Score:5)
You couldn't be more right. Why, just the other day, after my mom asked me how to open up AOL, and how to save a Word document, she asked: "I think there's a new nVidia driver out, is there an easy way to recompile my kernel, say, in a web-based manner?"
---
OT: This reminds me (Score:5)
"DOS is, quite possibly, the worst text-adventure game ever"
Atleast text-adventure game errors made sense
Next... Actual kernel functions (Score:2)
look:
you are in a dark cave
search:
you find a treasure chest
open treasure chest:
the treasure chest is empty
give treasure chest to process handler
...
the process handler is not placing processor states into the treasure chest and exchanging them for inactive ones. Congratulations, your kernel operation has reached a new level.
Congratuations, you have reached a new level, select device drivers to install!
buy bttv.o
You do not have enough experience to install this as a module, build into kernel?
...
...
...
Wrong answer (Score:4)
That was one of the original Macintosh interface guidelines. And it's still a very good rule. Think hard about that the next time you design something that needs "configuration".
An adventure installation program (Score:3)
Hell I'd like to see a graphical multi-user shell enviroment on Linux. Not to replace the cli or gui but to go along with it and make it more fun for users and help them learn how different parts of the OS interact. They'd need to be able to do everything the shell usually allows as well as interact/chat with other users. They'd start in their home directories and be able to browse the filesystem from that point (seeing anything that was visible to them from the normal shell) and be able to teleport to different directories directly. They'd need to be able to create a new file or directory as well as delete them all in real time. They'd have to be able to run commands, edit files, etc. I'd have a little CLI part under the MUD-UI where they could type/edit commands they were selecting from the MUD-UI as well as chat with fellow users. I'd make it so any program could be written with the ability to interact within the MUD-UI in the same way programs can interact with X to create windows, menus, etc as appropiate for the enviroment. You could really do a lot with it if you don't get silly and think most people will want to replace their CLI/GUI methods with the MUD-UI and treat it as an addon. Start with something simple and well known like the Doom engine (the nicely cleaned up version) and first try to do everything Bash does for a user and then extend from there.
KDE has a new Kernel Configurator too (Score:4)
KDE 2.2 will be shipping with a new kernel configurator too. It's build into the KDE Control Centre and is a very simple, fast and easy way to configure your kernel. It uses the kernel's existing configuration files/system but has it's own parser and intuitive gui. Check it out!!
Re:Wrong answer (Score:4)
What if you're compiling a kernel for a completely different computer? What if you want to experiment with a new option, or turn a feature into a module?
I'm not a fan of creeping featurism, but there's clearly room for kernel configuration. (And hey, it looks like ESR got the design of CML2 right. I'll give him credit for that.)
--
Re:some comments on the new adventure (Score:2)
Re:make zorkconfig? (Score:2)
But it *is* an adventure, when you rm all the Makefiles first!
Re:What an idiotic idea... (Score:2)
The CML2 system even makes sure you're making a valid configuration, unlike the current system.
In response to the other reply to this, the system has significantly less code.
Oh no, he released make infocom... (Score:4)
bash: ispell: command not found
Ok... why stop here! (Score:2)
Need to upgrade the mud based shell as well. Anybody who's anybody does their work in FPS mode these days. After all, its the only truely intuitive process. I mean seriously.. whats more likely? Someone entering the workforce that "intuitively" understands the concept of files and directories, and double clicking, or would they more likely understand roaming around with a shotgun and shooting monsters to erase files.
Lets get cracking people.. Until we can fully emulate everything we do in full 3D, then we might as well just do it in reality since it would be more efficient that way.
-Restil
Re:Actually, this might be practical... (Score:5)
This kind of thing is the stuff that makes Unix worth using. It's the kind of stuff that makes us better than Microsoft. Not GNOME. Not KDE. Not GNU this or Open Source that. The freedom to implement what you like rather than what a focus group calls for is one of the fundamental advantages of Free Software and of the hacker tradition that preceded it by 20 years or more.
Rest assured, Bill Gates is not spending his time making campy "for the fun of it" user interfaces.
Fine. He runs a multi-billion-dollar company. He wears suits. He talks about "vision" and marketing and The Road Ahead. Is this really somebody you want to emulate?
You can't beat Bill Gates with geek subculture. And while you're doing that, Gates' army is charging, on a mission.
On the contrary, he can't be beaten without it. Give up the fun, you've given up one of the primary distinguishing features. It doesn't count as a victory if you end up the same as your enemy.
This is one of the best things I've seen in recent years. I couldn't be happier. If a stuffed suit decided not to use Open Source because of it, I think we're just that much better off. Nyah!
Re:some comments on the new adventure (Score:4)
while (customer_asks_for_cheese)
{
lie_about_cheese_presence( );
}
Oh! Wrong kind of Python-to-C translator!!!! Sorry.
Re:Oregon|Kernel Trail (Score:3)
You attempt to ford the river. You lose sparcaudio, two filesystems, and ffb_drm. sparcaudio pulls cs4231 into the river with it. You are out of filesystems.
Man, OT was the best. :-)
Take a leaf from th Hobbit (Score:2)
Re:kernel mailing list archives (Score:2)
http://uwsg.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/
Re:KDE has a new Kernel Configurator too (Score:2)
Funny: Todays UFi is right on topic: (Score:2)
Re:KDE has a new Kernel Configurator too (Score:2)
Re:I watched the LInux Kernel Summit (Score:3)
No, that's not correct. First of all, CML2 won't check your hardware. If you compile a Pentium kernel to run on a 386 it will not boot. Likewise, if you compile a PPC kernel to boot on a 386 I doubt that it'll boot either.
Secondly, even kernel compiled with CML1 (the oldstyle config, menuconfig, xconfig, that's now in place) will make sure that your kernel boots up if you get the architecture right. What CML2 does for you, is preventing you from compiling a kernel with a Gigabit ethernet card, but without the PCI bus support, you'll definatelly gonna need.
So, with CML2, if you've compiled support for most if the cards and other peripheri you've got, then CML2 makes sure, that you're not lacking some basic support for a bus or so.
A graphical adventure shell (Score:3)
For beginning users, a graphical interface like this might be useful. I've thought of what I think is a good representation for files and directories, which could be merged with that DOOM-shell idea.
Directories are rooms. The texture of the walls and floor tells you what type of filesystem it is - e.g. marble for ext2, rotten wood for FAT, clouds for NFS. The color tells you what permissions you have on the directory - e.g. blue is read-only, green is writeable. A door to the parent directory is on one wall, doors to subdirectories are on the far wall. On one wall is a button. Push it, the wall drops down and there are all your hidden files and subdirs (.emacs, .netscape, etc.).
Files are objects in the room. The shape of the base tells you what kind of files they are - e.g. square for regular files, triangular for devices, round for pipes, etc. Colors indicate permissions again, and texture indicates detailed type - parchment for text, circuits for executable, etc. Height indicates file size, in a logarithmic mode. (Each unit of height means double the file size.) You can instantly tell a great deal about a file just by looking at it. Symlinks to other files are semi-transparent.
Like a game, you can select different tools (a delete tool, a copy tool, a link tool) and apply them to files and directories. Like most games, the "~" key brings down a shell console. You can switch to another user or "god mode" (root) and then the colors of things change to reflect your new permissions.
What do y'all think?
Re:some comments on the new adventure (Score:2)
Kernel configuration programs are non-exclusive. You can still do 'make config' (the classic yes/no prompting one that I know dates back to at leas the 1.2.x kernels), 'make menuconfig' (which requires ncurses, upping the dependency level but increasing convenience), and 'make xconfig' (which ups the dependency level quite a bit more but adds a graphical install). So the Python dependency, just for one configuration program, wouldn't be a problem.
kernel configuration could be much improved (Score:3)
It's time this part of linux is brought into the 21 century as well. Most users don't really need to recompile, they just need to put binary modules together. 95% of the users don't have scsi, do not have obsolete bus architectures, run x86 processors, would like to be able to mount their dos/windows drives. Why not build a set of kernels for different architectures for the most common desktop configurations and leave the compiling to people who really need it (i.e. those with older, more exotic hardware or those wanting to tweak optimization settings and so on).
It's nice to have the flexibility to compile the kernel, it is bad that it is the only way of getting a usable kernel. Maybe having binaries is not an option but in any case the configuration tools could be a lot more user friendly by for instance doing some hardware recognition, recognizing that certain options exclude each other, offering some presets which make sense on common architectures like x86 pc's. A nice option would be to automatically duplicate the settings from the running kernel into the new kernel, only prompting for settings that are new or require changes. That would make kernel updates a lot more painless. Even for the advanced users that would mean they could spend less stuff on the trivial stuff and instead focus on the important stuff.
Re:kernel configuration could be much improved (Score:3)
I agree that kernel developers should not bother with providing compiled kernels for end users. However, they could facilitate making it easy for others to do so. I imagine a high quality configuration systems is beneficial for them as well as it saves time not configuring obvious things.
The price of not making kernel compilation & deployment easy is that adoptation of new kernel releases is slowed down. A good example of this is that only now the first few 2.4.x kernels start to appear in distributions. In addition, since x still very low, there are frequent, very relevant kernel updates that most users would want to have if they were running a 2.4.x kernel. But because updating is non-trivial for most users, many people don't bother to update.
Re:some comments on the new adventure (Score:2)
--
Garett
Already done (Score:2)
full grammar? (Score:2)
What's the actual command grammar here? If it's just parsing a verb-noun command, it's not like "Infocom" but merely one of the many precursors or poseurs which also littered the landscape.
Infocom's parser handled a fairly diverse set of grammars for commands:
floyd, put the wrench in the cardboard box.
put all the goo, the interface card and the canteen under the table.
open the satchel then put the thing into it
Until it can handle such a diverse command set, I wouldn't try to suggest it's like Infocom games.
Re:kernel configuration could be much improved (Score:2)
You're right. This is why most distros just install a typically configured kernel and make the kernel source optional. Your average user doesn't need to compile a kernel any more. I've been happily and lazily running stock Red Hat kernels for several years now.
Keep the kernel ultra-configurable. It's useful for the people who really compile their own kernels. Make it easier for non-geeks by simply giving them working kernels. Sometimes you will need to compile a kernel, especially for unusual or very new hardware, but it's improving. Distro makers have alot of incentive to keep improving the quality of their stock kernels.
Adventure Shell! (Score:2)
Before that there was a real adventure shell, I remember one incident that was described by a friend about his boss using it...this person was trying to print something, and so he fed his document to the Print Daemon...it simply ate it...it turns out that you have to throw it at the Print Daemon to get it to print it!
And for those of us who remember it...(check out my User# here), I remember back when we only had a "Make config", and had to answer *EVERY* question about configuring the kernel...but then again, it was smaller then...then again, I remember doing kernel compiles overnight on my 486 system....My first kernel was v0.11, but I really only started to use it with v0.12.
ttyl
Farrell
Re:Already done (Score:2)
Re:kernel configuration could be much improved (Score:2)
It is true that for most users it is not really necessary to compile kernels. OTOH it is also true that kernel updates fix bugs, add hardware support, improve features improve security, etc. Considering that, most users would probably upgrade their kernels if there were a convenient way of doing so. There isn't, so they don't. It's pretty sad that you need red hat (ot whatever linux distributor) to recompile the kernel in order for mainstream users to get better support for new devices (e.g. usb devices), security fixes and other kernel goodies.
Contrary what you are saying, I would claim distributors like red hat actually benefit from the kernel configuration's obscurity since in most cases the only way to get a new pre-configured kernel is by installing a new version of a linux distribution. In other words, by preventing their customers from upgrading in a convenient way themselves additional revenue is created because people keep buying new red hat cds to stay up to date.
Re:Funny: Todays UFi is right on topic: (Score:3)
I've been looking for an excuse to post a link to the abandoned missile base VR tour [triggur.org] all week. Thanks ;-)
> POST LINK
The URL gets posted to Slashdot. There is a moderator here, holding a crack pipe.
> SCORE
Your score is 2 out of a possible 5.
Re:Actually, this might be practical... (Score:3)
Besides, you apparently never use MS software. I think my favorite is the flight simulator embedded in Excel. Should we now abandon Office because it's too frivolous?
Ooops. I just fed a troll, didn't I? Oh well, life goes on.
Re:Compile for the Z-machine? (Score:2)
The thing that makes me doubt the possibility of an inform port is the theorem-prover that you'd need. I don't recall that being part of the standard library, despite its obvious usefulness for making puzzles...
Speaking of which (Score:2)
Re:Already done (Score:2)
I haven't kept up with RH in a while, but it certainly seems they should be able to package new kernels within hours of a new source tree being posted. Could call them 'dev' kernels or 'unstable' or something similar.
Re:New compiler (Score:2)
This was, in fact, the code in version 1.34 of the gcc to handle #pragmas!
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
or this one (Score:2)
"VMS is a single-player text adventure game. If you win, you get to use Unix."
(Back when DEC Alphas were running both OpenVMS and OSF/1.)
Re:Wrong answer (Score:2)
This wasn't much of an issue with the Mac, because Apple kept tight control of almost everything, and if their OS couldn't figure out the configuration, then by gum it must be unsupported... But MS spent a few thousand man-months trying to test Win95 on all possible PC configurations, and still missed quite a few; a volunteer operation like Linux _cannot_ maintain a database of video cards, network cards, modems, motherboards, and BIOS's large enough to automatically configure for more than a few percent of the PC's out there.
Yes, this is one of the things that is holding Linux back from wider acceptance. On the other hand, once the machine is configured right, it won't mutate on its own. Windows does. So if you hire some guru to fix your machine, in Linux it should stay fixed, in Windows he _will_ be back.
brIn Windows it's quite likely that you will not be able to find any documentation that relates to your problem, short of paying MS tech support to look it up for you. Linux documentation may leave much to be desired, but you can get all of it quite inexpensively and if you do enough reading it does seem to be possible to understand the entire OS. No one at MS understands the entirety of any Windows or Office program.
Re:Speaking of which (Score:2)
1. Compile everything and compile each piece as a module.
2. Don't compile your boot drive's support as a module; SCSI support as a module on a SCSI-based system won't get you very far!
3. Always have 1 or 2 previous kernels to fall back on via. LILO or Grub; no need for a boot or rescue disk due to a failed configuration.
4. Backup .config after a sucessful compile and restore it when compiling a brand new kernel; you can use it later on the same machine and for making other kernels used on other machines.
5. To familiarize yourself with the step needed to compile a kernel, write your own script to do each step and change it often. Put in some sleep commands to pause execution at each stage.
Rule #1 occasionally fails with unofficial kernel releases during 'make modules'. If so, you can usually disable the one failing module and suffer no practical loss.
Rule #4 is handy if you encounter problems since you don't have to answer the same questions twice, and you have some consistancy when dealing with a fresh machine; you don't have to wonder if the hardware is different or if you messed up configuring the kernel generally when something doesn't work.
I realize that this means that the compile time is longer. You, though, spend less time tweaking each system...so the trade off is usually well worth it.
Re:kernel configuration could be much improved (Score:3)
...which is presumably why the README tells you in big bold letters to do a 'make oldconfig' before you do anything else. :-)= Advanced users certainly do that.
However, it isn't automatic, and is probably more important for those who aren't used to recompiling their kernel regularly and therefore are less likely to know that the README is serious about that. ;-) Which I think is your point. Is there any easy way to make it automatic?
[TMB]
Re:kernel configuration could be much improved (Score:3)
Re:An adventure installation program (Score:2)
Re:I watched the LInux Kernel Summit (Score:2)
Re:I watched the LInux Kernel Summit (Score:2)
You're thinking of the issue of source file dependencies, which are something separate and are not addressed by CML2. There is a separate project to replace the current recursive make [pcug.org.au] and kluged dependency analysis with something that works properly.
Re:some comments on the new adventure (Score:2)
Re:some comments on the new adventure (Score:2)
-Paul Komarek
Re:I watched the LInux Kernel Summit (Score:2)