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Yellow Dog Linux 2.0 Released 95

Posted by michael from the fine-new-pet dept.
lyberth writes: "Finally after almost too much waiting Yellowdog Linux has released the newest linux distro for the wild and wonderful ppc platform. An awsome new installer, support for most of the new mac hardware, and the first distro to include Xfree 4 for the ppc, as standard makes this pretty sexy distro. The press release can be found here."
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Yellow Dog Linux 2.0 Released More

Yellow Dog Linux 2.0 Released

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  • Re:But you see, Unix sucks, linux rocks. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    What is neolithic about the current file attribute system? Better yet do you have some links to papers or books that address these issues? I am right now doing a google on timpanogas and will go back and look at the reiser stuff, but, your comment was very interesting and I was hoping you could elaborate.

    I mostly use Linux BSD etc. but was recently forced to work on WIN2K and find it impossible to reconcile file permissions and licensing issues with the software I have to install. So I don't see it as superior. Of course I still have much to investigate with regards to M$. I point this out because of recent articles touting M$ as the only "inovator".
  • Does anyone know where the portion of the GPL that reads that if you modify the source code, that you must release the source code to the public after you've sold it for a while is?

    Quoth the GPL:

    2 b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License.

    Note that this doesn't mean you _do_ anything for them, just that you give them permissions to it under the terms of the GPL.

    The only people you need to actively provide source to are the ones you've given binaries to. You may want to have a look at the GPL FAQ: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl-faq.html [gnu.org]

  • And I've been running Xfree 4.whatever on my iBook for about the past six months. Contrary to the blurb.

    Whatever...

  • Remember, the GPL is not internet-aware and only requires that sources accompany binaries without further restriction

    No, no, no. It has been explained countless times here before. The GPL only requires that the source be available, but not necessarily included along with the binary distribution.

    b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange;

    That's one of the three conditions on which you may distribute GPL'ed binaries, of which you are required to comply with just one. See "Terms and Conditions for Copying, Distribution and Modification" in the GPL.

  • And Theo De Raadt doesn't hold copyright on the OpenBSD CD image layout?
  • It does in fact comply with the GPL as other people pointed out.

    However, nothing is stopping someone from buying YDL 2.0, and making/distributing the ISOs themselves.
  • woody's not released yet. I guess lyberth was only considering released distros. (I run woody on my x86 machines, and unstable on my ppc.)
    #define X(x,y) x##y
  • I think the main advantage of Mac hardware is in the market that Motorola targetted the G4: embeded systems. A laptop is pretty close to an embeded system, or at least has similar requirements: low power and small space. A G4 uses a lot less electricity to do the same amount of number crunching as most other processors that are at least as fast, x86 or otherwise. (i.e. not counting StrongARM/XScale or stuff like that.) Running without a fan is nice. My 486 laptop does that. When I feel like getting a new laptop, I'll probably try to get one based on the powerpc (or StrongARM, if anyone makes them!).

    As for absolute performance, Mac fans should really stop deluding themselves. Everyone has their reasons for buying what they buy, so of course one is not automatically an idiot for buying a Mac that is more expensive and slower for general purpose computing than a new PC. Anyway, please peruse Silicon Insider [realworldtech.com], especially Apple's Power Failure [realworldtech.com]

    One thing you'll notice if you have a PPC is that compiling stuff takes longer than on x86. gcc just plain does more work when generating ppc code than x86 code. (i.e. generating ppc code takes longer than generating x86 code, using a cross compiler.). Presumably, this is because it has a lot more registers, among other differences, so there is a lot more stuff for gcc to consider while optimizing. Another thing is that, especially on my quad PPC604 mac clone from Daystar, compiling doesn't scale very well. I think the fact that the 512kB L2 cache is shared among the 4 CPUs, and has to be accessed over a relatively slow bus, really kills things. CPU-bound tasks that don't need to touch a lot of memory do a lot better. This has improved a great deal with recent Macs, especially the G4 which has great SMP support. (the G3 and G4 have per-processor L2 cache, and have the tag-check hardware on-die, even though the main SRAMs are external.)

    Well, that was one of my more disorganized and wandering posts... :)
    #define X(x,y) x##y

  • There is a monolithic kernel for nubus Power Mac's being developed; I know that people have gotten Debian working with it, don't know about other distro's but it's worth a shot. Look here [sourceforge.net].
  • So if for example I go buy a boxset and burn and give you a copy of the binary cds. I and not YDL would be the one who at that point would owe you the source.

    No - the FSF says this:

    What does this "written offer valid for any third party" mean? Does that mean everyone in the world can get the source to any GPL'ed program no matter what?

    "Valid for any third party" means that anyone who has the offer is entitled to take you up on it.

    If you commercially distribute binaries not accompanied with source code, the GPL says you must provide a written offer to distribute the source code later. When users noncommercially redistribute the binaries they received from you, they must pass along a copy of this written offer. This means that people who did not get the binaries directly from you can still receive copies of the binaries, along with the written offer.

    The reason we require the offer to be valid for any third party is so that people who receive the binaries indirectly in that way can order the source code from you.

    Of course, they are quite entitled to ask the same price for a copy of the source as for the box set.

  • I didn't see any mention of the compilers in their press release and web pages. Does anyone know if YDL 2.0 includes AltiVec-aware compilers and tools?
  • Debian PPC is nice. Testing and unstable both work fine.
  • To boot debian on my G4, I simply insert the 2.2r2 CD into the DVD drive, boot with apple-option-O-F, then at the open firmware prompt I type:

    boot cd:\\yaboot

    At the yaboot prompt I type:

    debian video=ofonly

    Has worked for me so far.

  • I was just about to install OS X on my iMac. I really wanted to run YDL 2.0, but it's been such a long wait. No doubt the resulting product is fantastic, but it got to be a little much.

    I'll install promptly!

    -Waldo
  • It won't work on your 7100? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 7100 is a 601 processor, and it says on that page that the 601 is supported by 2.0.

    I think it'll work on 6100s and up.
  • Wrongo. The GPL says source must be included wherever the binaries are, and can't be further restricted. As long as Yellow Dog includes the sources with the distro, they're free to put it online or not at their own discretion.

    If they want to sell it and not put it online, that's okay too. It'll just take one person to buy it and upload the sources, in that case.

  • Mea culpa. /. is nothing if not precise. But I figure my main point has been made :)
  • Not true. The word "download" isn't even in the GPL; instead, it states that the sources must either accompany the binaries or (alternatively) be made available to anyone that wants them. So long as Yellow Dog includes the sources (without further restriction on them) with its distro, there is no violation. Simply because most distros are kind enough to provide free ISOs does not mean it is a requirement.

    The GPL is not internet-aware.

  • Re:GPL? (Score:5)

    by tuffy ( 10202 ) on Tuesday May 29, 2001 @10:55AM (#190603) Homepage Journal
    If the source code is included with the shipped distro, Yellow Dog is not required to make it available for download. Remember, the GPL is not internet-aware and only requires that sources accompany binaries without further restriction.

    In this case, all it'll take is for one person to buy it and upload the sources in order to effectively make it downloadable - which is what the GPL ensures. But Yellow Dog doesn't have to do that themselves if they don't want to.

  • And I believe that this is the reason that the designers of the GPL intended that proprietary software not be legally distributed combined with GPL software. IANAL, so I don't know whether to do so is actually to violate the GPL. It violates my interpretation of it. And, yes, that means that I believe that SuSE is in violation. I don't have a big wad of cash and a stable of lawyers to do anything about it, however.

    Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
  • What is neolithic about the current file attribute system?
    Neolithic = "New Stone Age", incidentally. In the beginning, all users could access all files. That would be the "Old Stone Age", or Paleolithic, thus extending my metaphor into a conceit.
    Unix access control depends on the idea of three access levels, and one user who transcends access restrictions altogether. The three levels are "user, group, other" as you probably are aware. Compare this to DEC VMS, with "system, owner, group, world" and you see it's nearly the same idea, just expressed a little more coherently, and with the addition of "system" (which is primarily used by the backup process; you can lock the system admin out of your files, but then you don't get backed up - a nice trade-off, IMHO).
    But then Unix goes on to implement the concept of a root superuser. Fundamentally stupid to lock everything and then mass-produce skeleton keys, I think... Suffice it to say that many OSes do not use this concept, and are thus radically more difficult to crack yet easier for the administrator to secure.
    Anyway, Unix then goes on to posit three types of access to a file - the simplistic rwx or "read, write, execute". Note that execute access is really just read access - you can cat a file to a shell without using execute, or you can copy a file you don't have the ability to change and then chmod +x your copy. So really, there's only two types of access - read and write - in Unix. (The x bit is just to keep you from stepping on your own privates by accident, which is easy to do in Unix since there is no "run" command.)
    Compare Unix's rwx to MVS, the ancient IBM behemoth OS, which implements "read, write, update" (but which unfortunately assumes that you have all lower privs if you have a higher one - so, under MVS RACF, if you can update a file you can read it. This is sufficient for most but not all situations.) The IBM system does not restrict files to a single group - one file can have separate read/write/update values for ten or twelve distinct groups of users (or more).
    Compare Unix's rwx with DEC's VMS - which implements "control, read, write, execute, delete". The "execute" is not quite as meaningless as it is under Unix, but nearly so; it doesn't take long to figure out how to subvert it. More importantly, the "delete" access is parsed out from "write", and "control" determines who can modify the protection values on the file.
    DEC has ACLs, too, probably the nicest implementation available and it doesn't store them off in some separate data structure, but rather keeps them with the file headers where they belong. But this diatribe is way too long already without going into ACLs.
    Novell has the most highly evolved system, which actually separates out create access from write access (which is amazingly useful) among other things. The Timpanogas guys (your google search should have turned them up, if not try searching on MANOS or FENRIS LINUX) are working to integrate the GPL'd linux code base with a Novell directory system, based at least partially on the ncpfs and ncpmount work that is included in most distros. The Timpanogas guys apparently have no social skills whatsoever (and seem to have squabbled with Linus) but they are reputedly crackerjack coders.

    Better yet do you have some links to papers or books that address these issues?
    I like @stake and counterpane.com for security stuff. Bruce Schneier of counterpane has addressed the lunacy of root superuser on occasion, I think. There is boodles of analysis on that available from the government, too.

    I am right now doing a google on timpanogas and will go back and look at the reiser stuff, but, your comment was very interesting and I was hoping you could elaborate.

    I wish I could spend more time writing this, but my 4-year old and I are supposed to be building a lego aircraft carrier at the moment. I don't think you'll have any trouble finding info on these subjects, though. Most linux people agree that the Unix access controls are horribly weak, and there are many discussions going on about how to fix the problem in linux while maintaining Unix compatibility (which is still desirable at the moment).

    I mostly use Linux BSD etc. but was recently forced to work on WIN2K and find it impossible to reconcile file permissions and licensing issues with the software I have to install.
    I have great sympathy. Since both systems essentially suck, it is difficult if not impossible to reconcile them. I would recommend the use of samba and serious perusal of the docs that come with it... FreeBSD already has ACL abilities at the kernel (of course, FreeBSD is also, well, BSD, so I will wait for linux to get a similar capability) which samba can use.

    So I don't see it as superior. Of course I still have much to investigate with regards to M$. I point this out because of recent articles touting M$ as the only "inovator".
    Oh, gods, don't get me started. Unix has an excuse, it is ancient and was not originally designed to survive in the current totally networked world. M$ has no such excuse for their crapola security and access control systems! In fact, considering how much of WinNT was ripped off wholesale from VMS when Dave Cutler left DEC to work at M$, the situation is appalling!

    All right, on to the legos. Just remember there are many more OSes than just Unix and MicroSquat, and many of them (probably most of them) have way better access control than either.
    --Charlie
  • Mac OSX is BSD-based. I stopped using Unix twenty years ago because of the attitude of the people at Berkeley - it was obvious that they were not interested in improving Unix, in fact the basis of their activities was the assumption that Unix was the apotheosis of computer operating system design.
    Unix has simply horrible access control - the ridiculous and unnecessary concept of the root superuser, for example, or the neolithic rwxrwxrwx file attribute system.
    Linux represents not just a free unix, but a unix-derived OS that is evolving toward something vastly better. Look at what Timpanogas is doing to try to bring real file access controls (and please, don't even bring up the various pathetic and incompatible implementations of POSIX ACLs that currently exist) or what Reiser is doing to co-evolve the file and name spaces.
    I use linux primarily because it is free and NOT UNIX. Just like a human is not an australopithecus. Interestingly enough, though, the advent of linux seems to have shaken the BSD world up to the point that Unix has started evolving again, too... or maybe that's just synchronicity. Apes aren't australopithecines either.
    Yeah, I'm not an anthropologist, my spelling is probably wrong.
    --Charlie
  • "Is anybody actually going to run out and buy a new G4, with MacOS X included... and then put Linux on it?"

    Actually, now that you mention it, yes.

    Let's face it: The G4 hardware is actually pretty darned spiffy, but I've never actually considered buying one thanks to the overall status of Mac OS's... 9 is buggy, unstable crap, and while X is pretty - possibly even stable - it is functionally crippled (the lack of support for DVD is especially ironic, given Mac's roots and the whole push for the DVD-watching crowd a la iMac-DV.)

    I personally have been lusting after the *hardware* in one of those pretty cubes since they were released, but I wouldn't dare plonk the money down on it thanks to the fact that there's really no good Mac operating system that can fully and/or reliably *utilize* that hardware. OS X was my hope - the one thing that would possibly convince me to get one - but that didn't exactly go as expected.

    Now there's YDL 2, and all I have to say about this release is that those titanium laptops are suddenly looking like a really good idea to me right about now.

    Kudos to the canary-colored canines, I say.

    --WorLord
  • if you have a mac with a rage128 (and its variations), then running quakeforge shouldn't be a problem since the rage128 driver supports accelerated 3d rendering in XFree 4.0.x. The 3d driver is still considered somewhat new/unstable, but I've heard of people getting the driver to work nicely.

    Checkout the linuxppc-dev list at linuxppc.org for more info.
  • Typos in HTML suck, don't they?

    The correct link is: iMacLinux [imaclinux.net]

    And the URL is: http://www.imaclinux.net

    Have a nice post-holiday Tuesday.
  • I am not sure about the legalities, but if you paied for it surely you can get the other to wait one month, while you have the head start you paied for? I am not sure about you, but I feel the one month wait, for the downloadable version, is a fair approach to recouping costs, especially if it means a quality distribution.
  • It is true that the Macintosh is not the only hardware platform to make use of the PPC, examples of other PPCs include the RS/6000 and some Amigas. I am sure there are others, but I can't think of any for the moment.
  • From the Yellow Dog site:
    When will YDL 2.0 be available for download?

    Monday, June 25th. Why the wait? YDL 2.0 was over a year in development. An expensive undertaking by any standards, we were determined to produce the finest PowerPC Linux distribution available with one of the easiest installers for any platform. And now we ask for your support. Please purchase YDL 2.0 from our resellers or our online Store when it becomes available on the 29th of May.

  • Either use OS X (a better unix for PPC than anything else by a mile)

    Try out OpenBSD 2.9, and then tell us what the best unix for PPC is.

    We've been running -current for months on our development database server, a G4 cube. You couldn't pay me to install OSX on that machine.
  • I'm genuinely curious as to why you're running a server on Mac HW when the Intel HW is generally cheaper and more adaptable

    It was free.
  • Who enforces the GPL? I've seen comments in this grain before. If someone violates the GPL, who has the legal authority to enforce compliance?
    The copyright holder, of course. That who is licensing the code to you.


    --
  • Who enforces the GPL? I've seen comments in this grain before. If someone violates the GPL, who has the legal authority to enforce compliance?


    And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
  • I don't believe the source even has to accompany the binaries - just that you have to make it available upon request at minimal media cost to anyone who buys your product.

    It seemed the original poster may have actually been talking about the product itself, not the source, being available for download, and of course there's no such requirement. Just because your source is GPL'd doesn't mean you have to give your product away!

  • Re:Fantastic... (Score:4)

    by macdaddy ( 38372 ) on Tuesday May 29, 2001 @10:31AM (#190618) Homepage Journal
    I'm curious what your reasons are for disliking LinuxPPC. Would you mind sharing them?

    Personally I really like LinuxPPC. I have numerous installations in a number of locations and I don't tend to have many or really any problems that I can't fix myself. I used to admin a mirror server that mirrored a large number of Linux distros and other open-source items (apache, proftpd, mrtg, LDP, etc...) and it was hosted on a box running LinuxPPC 99. It ran quite well for a machine that had as little RAM as it had and suffered as much pounding as it did. I'm still impressed by it. I use it here at work as a personal server and a place to host our network statistics and other information. It's been rock solid since I put up that machine when I started work here 10 months ago. I use it at home as well and haven't had any trouble there. Isn't Tivo also based on LinuxPPC?

    Sure you occasionally run into problems with something not compiling. That's not really a LinuxPPC problem but more of a coder problem not writing source to be as portable as possible across common hardware platforms. That happens. Ask an Alpha user. :)

    There have been some problems with LPPC in the past like sound support, support for new machines, etc... but the tend to get fixed quickly. Support for new hardware doesn't happen over night after all. Maybe if Apple divulged a little info to the LPPC group a few days or weeks before dropping a new machine on the market, support would come sooner.

    I can't honestly say that Linux on PPC-based architectures would be as far as they are today without the support of LinuxPPC Inc. MkLinux never would have gotten it here. YellowDog wasn't even on the scene yet. I don't believe Debian had been ported to PPC yet either. In the Fall of '97, you had either MkLinux DR2.1 or LinuxPPC to choose from. Someone has to buy the newly released pieces of hardware and donate them to developers for progress to be made on supporting those new machines. LinuxPPC usually does this act. All PPC Linux distros greatly benefit from this, not just LinuxPPC. YellowDog does too. So will Mandrake [slashdot.org]. So will the rest.

    Personally I've had really good luck with LinuxPPC and will continue to use and support their efforts. I'd be interested to hear about the problems you encountered though. I'll probably purchase a copy of YellowDog 2.0 just for the hell of it and give it a whirl. Good luck with whichever distro you use.

    --

  • It is perfectly kosher to sell GPLed software. The YDL people are obligated to provide source to anyone who buys one of their binary cds. There is nothing in the GPL that says one has to provide source to just anybody. However, as long as the cd does not contain any commercial or other non-redistributable software then anyone who legally obtains one of those cd's CAN make it availiable at no cost.

    The last point is a major big deal. If a YDL cd contains something like BRU then an iso of that cd CANNOT be freely distributed. Anyone wishing to distribute a YDL iso would have to 'sanitize' it of non-redistributable software first. If I'm not mistaken then these considerations apply to the full version of SUSE because of some commercial packages.

    In short, as long as they are providing SRPMS to their customers for the GPL/LGPL stuff then they are breaking no license.
  • This is absolutly amazing, especially since just about everybody has already explained that it is compliant with the GPL and therefore is WHAT OPEN SOURCE IS ALL ABOUT. If you buy a CD then you can get the source. If you cannot wait go and download Apache and look at the source I do think that it is a bit of PR suicide though. The only thing that saves them is that there is basically no comp. on PPC for them to worry about.
  • so if we were to napster the binaries around who would be responsible to fork the source?

  • god damn it. (Score:3)

    by QuantumG ( 50515 ) <qg@biodome.org> on Tuesday May 29, 2001 @12:26PM (#190622) Homepage Journal
    You can go to a casino and say "please bar me from entry for a week" and they've got to do it, it's the law. Slashdot needs a "please ban me from posting for a week" button. The closest you can get is a 24 hour ban by being modded down 5 times in 24 hours, thus the point of the above post, and what do I get? Score:4, Funny.

  • Great. Will it run on my 7100? (Score:4)

    by solios ( 53048 ) on Tuesday May 29, 2001 @10:57AM (#190623) Homepage
    Forget the new hardware- I still have a use for it. If I had a "spare" G4 that I wasn't using for photoshop or video editing, I'd be, like, happy. Or something. My 8500, 9500, iMac and powerbook are all running MacOS and they're staying there for awhile. But... I have an anceint, rancid 7100 that's just waiting to rust sitting under my TV.

    If you have an x100 system, you have TWO whole options for an OS- MacOS (7.something - 9) and MKLinux. There's no Be, no *BSD, nothing else. If you've never used Linux before, MKL is easily the WORST place to start- it boots to a command line and has to be bootstrapped off of MacOS (meaning you can't boot into it natively) - this is DR3 I'm referring to, not whatever the current build is.

    Yellow Dog Linux needs a big shiny merit badge for "most useless web site"- Debian, the BSDs, MKLinux, et al all have easy-to find sections that will tell me what hardware the distro runs on. YDL has no mention of anything, and a search by model numbers gets squat for hits. Going by the web site, it runs on flower power iMacs and powerbook G4s- the only model screen shots they display. Odds are if you have one of these, you're running MacOS- anyone who sets out to buy hardware that will end up as a linux box, from my experience, invariably goes intel. It's cheaper.

    Linux, from everything I've heard and seen, runs quite well on older hardware- yet there's no mention of said hardware on the YDL page. Anywhere. MKLinux is ass (from a Mac user's perspective), LinuxPPC took a huge shit when I tried to drop it on my 8500, and the Debian installer is going nowhere unless you already know how to partition and format a disk from the command line, 'cuz from firsthand experience, there is NO help for the damned formatting utility.

    I'm a Mac user. I like the idea of unix/linux and want to play around on hardware that's not mission critical- I've unsuccessfully grappled with three different distros and have been resoundly shocked by the horrendous quality of the format/install process. If the OSS community is trying to bring new users to Linux, well.... you guys are doing an amazingly piss poor job of it.

    I'll stick with OS X for right now- I can run Apache and photoshop on the same machine without rebooting. AND the default install boots right into a pretty, albeit marginally useable UI. Linux, so far, can't compete in that respect.
  • It's on their site:

    Power Macintosh G4 2001
    The G4's with Nvidia graphics are NOT Officially Supported with YDL 2.0. These machines contain new video hardware that is not yet supported by PowerPC Linux and will not work without addition end user configuration.

    Neither are LCD monitors (you have to make some changes manually).
  • It comes without a fan, but if you open it up you will see that the Mac cube has an 80mm fan mount inside. If you've installed a better hard drive that is also hotter than stock (like an IBM 75GXP) then adding that fan is a good idea. I had a couple of shutdowns that I could not attribute to anything other than heat before the fan, and none after. If you use a silent fan like a Panaflo L1A it will be quieter than the drive anyway.

  • GPL? (Score:2)

    by mwalker ( 66677 )
    Hey, I hate to be the first to whine about this, but:

    When will YDL 2.0 be available for download?
    Monday, June 25th. Why the wait? YDL 2.0 was over a year in development. An expensive undertaking by any standards, we were determined to produce the finest PowerPC Linux distribution available with one of the easiest installers for any platform. And now we ask for your support. Please purchase YDL 2.0 from our resellers or our online Store when it becomes available on the 29th of May.

    Does anyone know where the portion of the GPL that reads that if you modify the source code, that you must release the source code to the public after you've sold it for a while is?

    I'm having trouble finding it. Not that I have a problem with them making money, or charging for the media, I'm just hoping that our lurking GPL experts can clarify this one for me.

    NOTE: I am NOT accusing them of a GPL violation. I'm asking a question. Please don't flame me, I burn easily.

  • Unsupported but should work (Score:3)

    by flatrock ( 79357 ) on Tuesday May 29, 2001 @11:25AM (#190627)
    They are on the unsupported, but should work list. I take that to mean that they don't have those machines sitting around, so they have no way to support you if you have problems.

    We have the same problem where I work. We write drivers to be as portable as possible, but don't promise they will work on all hardware on all the OSs we support. On some OSs we provide source code for the files that are system specific, object files for the rest, and a porting guide. They can port it themselves, but don't expect much support for your hardware if it doesn't work.

    There are other drivers where we just provide all the source, it depends on the product, and legal issues with whatever IP is involved.
  • The GPL only applies when you distribute something. They haven't distributed it yet, so they don't need to release the source code(and they are only required to release the source code to people who actually bought it.
  • <pant/>get...titanium<wheeze/>...laptop.... <drool/>
  • with xfree86 4.02 and the rage hardware, which i am so glad to see being pushed out of the way by better nvidia chips on ppc(even though ydl doesn't support them yet), does hardware mesa-gl/glx work? i know q3 doesn't support it, but maybe quakeforge would? anybody know?
  • SuSE does the same thing. bastards. but with the GPL, isn't it only required to distribute/make available the source code for any gpl programs?
  • hmmm, i would think that this would be the one thing that terrasoft (producers of YDL) *could* copyright, since it's the assemblage of parts that forms a linux "distribution", right?
  • yeah, but not aqua, while OTOH, it's easy to run XonX, which is what i do... of course, hardware requirements are pretty steep for os X, and it's not exactly a speed demon (at least not on my pwoerbook g4)
  • I just recently installed Debian on my 3400c. It was on the supported list, but just barely. Most of the difficulties were due to the barely compatible OF, and boot methods. I doubt seriously that any pretty install they have will work on it, but if you setup bootx or something similar you should be able to get to the ugly install...


    jred
    www.cautioninc.com [cautioninc.com]

  • Sheesh, I've been looking through the posts, and boy does everyone here seem confused.

    SuSE 7.1 has been available for download for at least a month now on ppc, and includes k_2.4.2 (pretty stable, a few kinks) and Xfree 4. With drivers for the R128, I might add.

    I can't say for YDL, since I can't install it entirely off FTP (I can, and have, done that with SuSE). They seem to have a pretty good system -- if you buy the package you get licensed, commercial sw which is not offered online, and you also get installation support, etc. Perhaps YDL ought to consider this sort of arrangement for their next release... by the time the FTP distro is available I'll have customized my system way too much to consider installing new core sw, and as a result I doubt I'll be likely to install it...

    Don't get me wrong -- I don't want to take the sail out of YDL, but they're not the only one apart from LinuxPPC, and they're not the first one with Xfree 4.

  • Anyone know where to get iso CD images? As I write this it doesn't seem to be on their ftp server.
  • It would be legal for someone to buy it and then put it up for download right?
  • found this link in 2 clicks

    http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/support/faq_hardwa re .shtml

    and on my third click

    What hardware will simply NOT work with Yellow Dog Linux?
    - Power Macintosh 6100, 7100, 8100
    - WGS 6150, 8150, 9150
    - The PowerBook 1400, 2300, and 5300
    - Any Performa 52xx, 53xx, 61xx, 62xx, and 63xx.
    - The 6360 is the only exception -- it will boot the Linux kernel
    ---

  • I am glad that this is the first ppc linux distro to include it. Too bad SuSE PPC 7.1 comes with it and has been out for a while. Why doesn't anyone check thier facts before posting stories? It is like that little IPFilters licensing issue yesterday.
  • You are wrong. But is a common mistake. They do in fact have to give source or make it possible to get source when they distribute the binaries to you.That would mean that either the box set has cds with the source on them or they have a ftp site somwhere with the source. They do not have to give the source to anyone to whom they do not give binaries. So if for example I go buy a boxset and burn and give you a copy of the binary cds. I and not YDL would be the one who at that point would owe you the source.
  • Gee. The sarcasm is literally DRIPPING from this one.

    Curious George

  • Linux/PPC has been ported to NuBus Power Macs since June 2000: http://nubus-pmac.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net] There is nothing wrong with LinuxPPC. You didn't say what version you tried on your 8500 and it is hard to tell what went wrong from your eloquent description. I have been running LinuxPPC since 1999 version on a Workgroup Server 8850/200. The 2000 version is even more polished.

    I also am still running MkLinux on an old 7100/80 and while it certainly isn't the latest/greatest Linux distro, it certainly is functional. There are worse things than learning how to use Linux from the command line. Personally, I have grown to prefer it (and I am not a UNIX guru-- I'm a dyed in the wool Mac fan since my first Mac Plus 12 years ago.) You can learn a lot, even with MkLinux (including that Joy of Joys for a Mac User Linux Newbie: Learning to Mount a Floppy! )

    So, if you want to let that 7100 continue to rot under the TV, be my guest... but don't bellyache about it when there ARE options out there you just don't want to explore.

    Curious__George,br>

  • So you can enjoy a consistent, clean user interface that even your mother can use. So you can install new drivers simply by dragging their files into a folder. So you can run a huge range of professional quality software packages.

    oh hang on...that's MacOS, not the Mac. whoops. you're right...there's no need for a Mac.

  • Okay, cheesehead. I'll bite at the flame. I think the whole point of the post is this: YDL's web site implies that it can breathe new life into old, decrepit hardware. Fact of the matter is, the old decrepit hardware they mention happens to be on the "unsupported" list. Hrm. Okay, so instead of a usable out-of-the-box OS, you have to hack away at the kernel through endless recompiles until you get something usable. Have fun!

    If you ever want Linux to get out of the server room and onto the desktop, shut the fuck up and start compiling kernels for every ancient piece of hardware. When you're done, get to work on a nice, pretty installer that handles the mess of partitioning and configuring a distro to any machine with no user intervention.

    Why?

    Because despite the fact I've installed more NuBus, PDS, PCI, SIMMs, DIMMs, AirPort, PCMCIA, and proprietary cards than you have sitting in the umpteen spare parts boxes in your closet, despite the fact I've wrangled my fingers into the most contorted positions to get to parts nestled way, way, way down in the innards of PM8100's, despite the countless pieces of hardware I've installed into every generation of Macintosh boxen, I still want an OS that installs and is up and running in a snap. I'll tweak once it's running. If getting it running is like some marathon several-month-long episode of Junkyard Wars, I want no part of it, thanks.

    Moral of the story: until Linux distros can install on virtually every piece of hardware and be running ( and online, and printing to the printer) before the average user finishes two cups of coffee, it's never gonna make it out of the server room.
    ---

  • How about serve email from your 7200?

    so i've been working in a few of the cisco 7200s here at work most of the day. i take a break and open up slashdot and start reading this comment. with my mind still on the ciscos i think "why on earth would i want to serve mail from a router?"

    maybe i need a coffee...

  • Not only that the FSF encourages distributors to charge [fsf.org] for software, with the notion that this is a prime opportunity to secure funding to further develop Free Software-- something I'd say Yellow Dog is involved in. Certainly the $30-$40 for the set of disks you get from YDL is not making anyone a multimillionaire-- their 1.2 distribution was dang nice, imho, and I'm guessing that 2.0 would be money well spent as well (especially if you're not going to be a hardline Free Software zealot and only use the main tree from Debian).
  • Your last statement is actually untrue. If YDL sends you a binary and a source CD, they don't have to make any offers to provide the source code to you or to anyone else ever again-- they already have satisfied Section 3a of the GPL.

    The GPL says you cannot set a price for the source code at all, except for the actual physical cost of distributing it (i.e. price of a blank CD or whatever). This is to prevent the source code from becoming very expensive while the binaries remain affordable.

    If I buy a copy of YDL and they include the source, I'm personally responsible for giving copies of the source along with the executables if I'm sharing with my friends. The only way I'm safe is if I receive an offer for the source, but no actual source code. Then I can pass along the offer.
  • No, it's a real term! Look it up at a politics site or on google if you don't believe me.
  • I like the name ... I presume it's names after Yellow-Dog Democrats, who (it's said) are so loyal they'd would vote for a yellow dog as long as he's running on the demo ticket.

    Kind of like Mac and/or Linux users, eh?

  • Hopefully they've improved their installer - I got nowhere with the previous version on a PowerMac 7200.

    As noted in the recent article about Mandrake for PowerPC, most of the Linux distros for PowerPC have suffered from really bad installers - the LinuxPPC one in particular was SO slow on my machine with a really clunky interface. Hopefully YellowDog has improved the situation.

  • 4 posts, and their server is already crawling. Presumably, today would not be a good day to download the .iso's?
  • WRT to Linux, when I see "unsupported" I take that to mean that it may work but no guarantees. And you can pretty much expect that the documentation will NOT match what is necessary for those machines.

    Their target is mac users, who by definition may not be as familiar with a command line, tweaking a system to get sound working, etc. They will NOT like "subscribe to this mailing list and ask" as a response to "why doesn't my sound work?" when they just plunked down $70.

  • from their homepage... (Score:4)

    by jchristopher ( 198929 ) on Tuesday May 29, 2001 @10:31AM (#190653)
    When will YDL 2.0 be available for download? Monday, June 25th. Why the wait? YDL 2.0 was over a year in development. An expensive undertaking by any standards, we were determined to produce the finest PowerPC Linux distribution available with one of the easiest installers for any platform. And now we ask for your support. Please purchase YDL 2.0 from our resellers or our online Store when it becomes available on the 29th of May.

    So... is that "legal"? I am not a programmer, but if I was, I'd be very upset that they are selling my work but not obeying the terms of the license I released under.

    I know there is no requirement that they actually make an .iso for you, but don't they have to at least make the source available?

  • ironic (Score:5)

    by jchristopher ( 198929 ) on Tuesday May 29, 2001 @10:41AM (#190654)
    Their page says "Why YDL 2.0? Wanting to spif up that PowerBook 3400? How about serve email from your 7200?"

    Yet both those machines are on the "unsupported" list.

    It's interesting that the place where Linux is most useful - older hardware that needs a new life - are frequently the machines that YellowDog won't run on. Is anybody actually going to run out and buy a new G4, with MacOS X included... and then put Linux on it? If you're shopping for new stuff to run Linux, would you even consider PPC hardware? The reason to buy a G4 is to get MacOS, otherwise, what's the point?

    YellowDog would be great for putting those old 7200 era machines to work...but it won't run on them!

  • Does anyone know if this release has support for the GeForce3?

  • ack - sorry I overlooked the obvious statment on the front page....

  • Size. 8x8x9 is really small, cute, and nifty. The next closest hardware is a Cobalt Qube, which is, what, $3k?

    Fanless. Cool. Low powered.

    Aesthetics. Not a terribly profound reason, but a Cube does look rather nifty.

    That's my guesses, at least.

    Geek dating! [bunnyhop.com]
  • Because that doesn't violate the GPL.
  • The page specifically mentions all of the 6100, 7100, and 8100 models. The reason it won't work is because of the NuBus architecture with these models, as opposed to the PCI architecture.

  • It takes some doing from the press release site, but you can make your way to the supported platforms page.

    or you can click here

    YDL 2.0 [yellowdoglinux.com]

    I'm sure it's great, but it won't work on my Power PC 7100AV at home.

  • Can I use this with one of these: (nota bene: These are no iMacs)

    PEGASOS Dual PPC MoBo [bplan-gmbh.de]
    • microATX Mainboard
    • 133 MHz CPU slot
    • two PC133 RAM
    • AGP slot
    • 3x PCI slot
    • FireWire
    • 10/100 MBit Netzwerk
    • 4x USB
    • AC97 sound
    • IRDA
    • ATA100
    • KBD (PS/2)
    • Mouse (PS/2)
    • 2x RS232
    • Centronics
    • Floppy
    • Gameport
    • FlashBIOS

    Nota bene: This is a motherboard, so all in the list is onboard !
    That would give heaven of a multimedia machine: DualG4, Firewire, IRDA and Ether onboard, put one of the DCE Microservers (see next one) in one free PCI.....WROOMMMM !

    DCE [dcecomm.de] G3/G4 Microserver on a PCI card
    Note, I did not find info on this card on their site, yet.
    • G3/G4 CPU 450-733 MHz 1-4 MB Cache
    • bis 1 GB 133 MHz SDRAM
    • 100 Mbit Ethernet
    • optional Firewire
    • PCI 2.1 Master/Agent
    RIORED PPC MoBo [czuba-tech.com]
    • RIORED mainboard supports one or two CPU daughtercards. Each daughtercard contains one PowerPC G3cx microprocessor operating at a speed of 550 MHz.
    • 64MB to 1GB memory by four interleaved sockets (used 2 by 2) consisting of 64 or 72-Bits (ECC) unbuffered SDRAM 168pins DIMMs.
    • Memory speed support of 100MHz (PC-100) for up to 800 MBytes/s.
    • 512KB of FLASH memory for the BIOS and SETUP.
    • Four 33MHz PCI-32 (32-Bits) slots with BURST transfers at 133 MBytes/s.
    • Two 66MHz/3.3V PCI-64 (64-Bits) slots with BURST transfers at 528 MBytes/s.
    • AGP (3.3V) bus support with onboard DMA capabilities.
    • PCI IDE for four devices (Ultra-DMA 66).
    • PCI USB for four onboard ports (1.5 & 12Mbits/s).
    • I2C port to pilot a front panel LCD to show the system information.
    • I2C port for geeks.
    • Time-of-year clock & NVRAM (256Bytes) with 3V lithium battery.
    • Interrupt management with clear distribution (not shared int lines).
    • Power management with wake up capability from USB events (keyboard / modem) and PCI cards (Ethernet).
    • Ambiant thermical sensor.
    I2C ports, yammi ;-)
  • yeah, sure you can.. but bandwidth costs alot of money unless you run it out of a dorm or are the owner of an ISP.
  • why should they? they only have to give out the
    source code to people they distribute their
    product to. and you can probably get 95% of
    the programs they used from the Net anyways.
  • ... but with OS X out combined with Intel hardware being so cheap I find the whole notion of a Linux distribution for PPC to be rather pointless. Either use OS X (a better unix for PPC than anything else by a mile) or use Linux on Intel. There is no substitute for common sense here, folks.
  • You're running a DB server on a Cube? Why? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, really. I'm genuinely curious as to why you're running a server on Mac HW when the Intel HW is generally cheaper and more adaptable. Is there some other modivation I'm not aware of?
  • So... is that "legal"? I am not a programmer, but if I was, I'd be very upset that they are selling my work but not obeying the terms of the license I released under.

    It follows the GPL to the letter. Go to www.fsf.org and read up a little. The GPL never requires anything to be free (as in beer). It only requires that they include the source to GPL programs with their distributions.

    I know there is no requirement that they actually make an .iso for you, but don't they have to at least make the source available?

    The source is available, from the sites of the included programs. The reason you pay them money is that they put everything together correctly.

    Art At Home [artathome.org]

  • Linux, from everything I've heard and seen, runs quite well on older hardware- yet there's no mention of said hardware on the YDL page. Anywhere. MKLinux is ass (from a Mac user's perspective), LinuxPPC took a huge shit when I tried to drop it on my 8500, and the Debian installer is going nowhere unless you already know how to partition and format a disk from the command line, 'cuz from firsthand experience, there is NO help for the damned formatting utility.
    You can use a MacOS hard drive utility to partition and format your disks ahead of time. Just make an A/UX partition. Some, but not all, versions of Drive Setup will do this. I believe other utilities like Silver Lining can also do this.

    Art At Home [artathome.org]
  • The reason to buy a G4 is to get MacOS, otherwise, what's the point?

    You've never heard of testing? What if you wrote an app that worked in OS X, but you wanted to make it more portable? After you tried it on some other *BSD, YellowDog or some other PPC Linux would be the next step. Needless to say, it would also help with identifying the nature of whatever bugs might be encountered.

    Art At Home [artathome.org]

  • SuSE has a PPC version that worked pretty well for my PB g3 this weekend... 2.4 kernel, xfree86 4...

  • It'll run on a 7200 and PB 3400; I checked 'cuz I've got a 7200 and want to run YDL on it. All they're saying is that they'll only support you via email if it crashes/burns/turns you into a weasel/etc.

  • Re:Altivec patches for GCC? (Score:4)

    by majoun ( 323758 ) on Tuesday May 29, 2001 @10:48AM (#190671)
    According to this page (3rd party tools):

    http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/products/3rd-party .s html#psrv

    VAST & DEEP Parallel Tools, by Pacific Sierra Research
    VAST is a precompiler that automatically applies high-level vector and parallel optimizations to C and Fortran programs. Of specific interest here is VAST-C/AltiVec, which automatically vectorizes C programs for AltiVec-enhanced C compilers, such as the modified gcc distributed by Yellow Dog/Black Lab...
  • You can always download from www.linuxiso.org (along with most other popular distros), but this server usually takes a day or so to get the latest versions.
  • There's more to PPC's than Macs, there are a lot of applications for embedded systems where Linux would be ideal on a PPC. We looked at using some flavor of Linux on a PPC for one of our systems just so we wouldn't have to deal with the bytes being in backwords order on Intel machines.
  • Boohoo, my PowerBook 3400, PowerPC 7200, 7100, etc aren't supported. Yeah, well I have an ANS [erik.co.uk] running champion server 1.1 and that's "not supported". Grow a pair, put on some black socks with white sneakers and make it fit!
  • Finally, something other than linuxPPC and the Godawful Mach kernel for the ppc...I'm glad yellow dog is still coming along...
  • Haven't checked it out. Debian's my favorite for PC. Thanks for the info.
  • It would make more sense to me if I spelled sense sense instead on since, since I spelled it since.

  • You can't download it just yet.... (Score:3)

    by arglesnaf ( 454704 ) on Tuesday May 29, 2001 @10:18AM (#190679)
    I noticed a release announcement in the rant on Mandrake asking for donation threads last friday.

    The only issue some of you might have is that from what I read at iMacLinux [imaxlinux.net] it is not downloadable until the end of June. It honestly makes since to me to try and recoup some of the costs by having the people who want to try it out first pay for it. IMHO

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