

Mandrake Shakeup 221
An AC submitted this sad news: "NewsForge has a couple of articles on a management shakeup and more at French Linux distribution Mandrake. The CEO, CIO, CTO and others, including most of the IS team, have been let go. Others have taken voluntary pay cuts or cuts in their work hours. Ouch!" Several of the slashdot staff are big Mandrake fans; I hope they can keep going in the face of adversity.
Re:sigh (Score:1)
Re:Will the same thing happen to RHAT? (Score:2)
They haven't burned through all of that capital yet. Ultimately, I am afraid they will...
While it's hard to predict the future, Red Hat is currently breaking even. Which implies that they aren't burning through anything...
Re:It was Distribution (Score:2)
Money and distribution is important, but its also not fair to be charging for other people's work, and essentially making them pay for it. No one would help on any of their projects if they did that, and it would be essentially like stepping back to a closed source model.
Think of charging for a distro as charging for the work that went into putting the distro together and creating whatever glue it took to make it all work. If you consider what it would cost to get the same things from MS, you will see that $70 really is more like charging for putting it together (>$$$ for OS, >$$$$$ for various compilers, $$$ for web server, $$$$$$$$$$$ for unlimited no questions asked site license).
Re:sigh (Score:3)
Is it the way some of these companies market themselves, which is close to zero when it comes to mainstream magazines
I think that is close to the mark. Potential users just don't know what Linux has to offer them. If they will listen, I find that a few minutes of education and evaluation of their current usage is enough to get them to try Linux.
Personally, I like Debian, but I recommend Mandrake to beginners. It is easier to install than windows, and comes with decent defaults for a workstation. The GUI config tools are pretty good as GUI config tools go.
Re:What nonsense. (Score:2)
Re:What can we do to stop this from happening agai (Score:2)
Re:It was Distribution (Score:2)
Re:What can we do to stop this from happening agai (Score:2)
I think you are misunderstanding the idea behind "service". Solutions are a service.
GPL is not aimed at removing ownership, it's aimed at removing ownership of software.
Lawyers do not _own_ the arguments they come up with, but they are paid enormous amounts of money to come up with them. Once the arguments are made, they are public record, and anyone can use them again. Yet lawyers get more money than just about anyone else.
As long as software creates solutions for problems, developers will be paid, even if the final results are freely available.
Re:What can we do to stop this from happening agai (Score:2)
What it all boils down to.... (Score:1)
I just paid for my 8.0 powerpack preorder, and when I built an OpenBSD firewall I bought my copy of 2.7 (and paid more for the shipping from
Oh, and please save your mod points for good comments like this one [slashdot.org].
Your Working Boy,
- Otis (GAIM: OtisWild)
Re:sigh (Score:2)
Because Mandrake may be easy to install, but it's even easier to just keep the Windows 9x that was installed when you bought your computer.
Hoping to capture the desktop in a sudden coup is overly optimistic.. Slow and steady progress will earn Linux's share, just like the last ten years.
Re:Mandrake Woe (Score:2)
Of course Debian has an even better set of packages - but I've had an irrational fear of Debian ever since installing with dselect a couple of years ago.
Re:sigh (Score:2)
Re:What can we do to stop this from happening agai (Score:1)
We pay taxes to the government, they provide us with services in return (roads, police, armed forces, the Smithsonian, tax shelters for the rich, etc.). In exchange for giving the government money, they try to make sure we're not invaded (I hear Canda has 90% of their population amassed within 100 miles of the border as we speak).
We can also pay money to Redhat, and they provide us with services in return (updates, support, etc.). In exchange for giving Redhat money, they try to insure we're not cracked.
The GPL does not prevent the charging of fees for service, but it does give more power to the consumer than many companies are comfortable with.
Let's hammer this metaphor to death. What if the Constitution had been proprietary? Right off, the Bill of Rights and addition amendments wouldn't exist, as users wouldn't be able to add onto the Constitution. On the other hand, the US government could have made a fortune licensing the technology known by the internal code named "Democracy" to other countries. Then again, Greece might of had prior art....
Re:What can we do to stop this from happening agai (Score:2)
Granted, the fact that Mandrake could just take Redhat 5.2 and sell a better version of it speaks against the GPL from the business standpoint, but that frame of thinking is the wrong way to look at the GPL. The GPL isn't about protecting business rights, it's about protecting the consumers.
Try to think of the United States Bill of Rights as a metaphor for the GPL. The Bill of Rights is stupid from a governmental perspective. Citizens who can speak out against the government? Citizens who can't be coerced into testifying against themselves? Citizens who can carry their own weapons? (allright, that one's pretty stupid today, but it made a lot of sense in the 1700's). The Bill of Rights isn't for the government, it's for the people. It helps keeps government honest, open, and democratic, and it assures citizens of their rights and freedoms.
In turn, we shouldn't expect business to have to justify the use of the GPL, rather, it should be consumers that demand the use of the GPL, and business in turn respecting their customer's wishes and needs.
Re:What's wrong with Mandrake? I'll tell you (Score:2)
There are quite a few other channels for support besides Mandrake Expert. There are the Mandrake Expert Mailing list, the Mandrake Newbie Mailing list, alt.os.linux.mandrake, and so on.
Their pay schemes have not yet been implemented, and I would be surprised if they ever are.
Believe me, mandrakeexpert is just as frustrating for the experts. We get bombarded with questions like, "Can I get AOL on Mandrake?" "I want to set up a home LAN." So, yes, there is a difference between end-users and experts.
Trying to blame mandrakeexpert for what is going on at MandrakeSoft is like trying to blame Slashdot for what happens to LNUX.
Re:Stranded (Score:2)
You're making progress..... Now you've got to make the mental leap that Samba, like most GPL software is a *solution* to someone's problem. One that they're willing to pay for. The fact that it implements a crap protocol (with which I heartily agre b.t.w.
I'm sure you can get there in the end. In the meantime, people keep paying us to develop and service Samba, so the GPL is a wonderful business plan for us (as it is for RedHat also).
Regards,
Jeremy Allison,
Samba Team.
Re:Will the same thing happen to BSD (Score:2)
I don't think I was misrepresenting you though. You believe that the GPL destroys legitimate business. HP, IBM, SGI, Sun, Veritas and *hundreds* of other companies don't. Where there are that many MBA's telling you you're wrong, don't you question what you're saying ?
Regards,
Jeremy Allison,
Samba Team.
Re:Stranded (Score:2)
Programmers working on Samba can leverage this knowledge into high consulting rates and employee wages (trust me on this one
I do agree with you about the insecure proprietary protocol however. But whilst people keep buying Microsoft based desktop systems, what're you gonna do.... ?
Regards,
Jeremy Allison,
Samba Team.
Re:The Million MBA... er, lemming march (Score:2)
I don't think they're trying to leverage a fad either. I think they see the GPL as their only hope to compete with an existing monopoly. Donating code to the BSD movement does then no good, as Microsoft can co-opt it (as they and NetApp have with BSD based code already).
They're using the GPL as a business weapon.
I don't think the GPL had anything to do with the failure of Eazel or Mandrake. Management, and bad luck (bubble bursting when it did) had more to do with it than any software license.
Regards,
Jeremy Allison,
Samba Team.
Re:Stranded (Score:2)
Just because we don't have a samba.com doesn't mean we're not a business success. There are (reasonable) estimates that 30% of Windows clients connect to some Samba server. People claim apache as a business success all the time, there isn't an official apache.com. There are however, many businesses based upon it. Or do you separate out the success of Apache (>60% market share, that's a business success in my eyes) from that of Samba because Apache uses a license you agree with ?
Your comment "programmers cannot make money off the code they actually generate" is incorrect. I have personally been living from the work I do on Samba for nearly five years now. I'm making money from what I do, and what I do is write GPL code.
Regards,
Jeremy Allison,
Samba Team.
Re:Stranded (Score:3)
Explain the business success of Samba please ? I can and will dog your efforts to paint the GPL as anti-business until you can explain our success and all the companies who co-operate and donate code to us.
You know, little companies like IBM, Sun, HP.....
I'm still waiting.....
Regards,
Jeremy Allison,
Samba Team.
Re:Will the same thing happen to BSD (Score:4)
Got an answer to our business success yet ?
Thought not... (after all, you've only been repeating this troll for as long as I can remember, from your infoworld days).
Readers who want a laugh can look up the old infoworld forums where Brett, a "journalist" at the time, had neglected to do his research and discover that Novell had in fact shipped a GPL version of Samba several years previously before Brett was claiming that the GPL was preventing them from doing so....
Regards,
Jeremy Allison,
Samba Team.
who makes the decision to fire all of these people (Score:1)
I must be missing something obvious about corporate chain of command.
Re:Is the shakeup for financial reasons ? (Score:2)
Note: one of the weaknesses of any online community is the fact many believe themselves to be poorly connected & that everyone else either knows -- or doesn't know -- what they have heard. That is why I haven't shared the following bit of news.
At the last PLUG (==Portland Linux/UNIX Group) meeting (3 May 2001), one of the members mentioned that he had just been laid off from Mandrake, shortly after returning from a business trip to Vietnam. In effect, about 3 weeks ago Mandrake was cutting back headcount of their US division.
This latest move merely has brought to wider attention convulsions already going on in their company.
Personal note: it's going to be hard to find work as a Linux guy when so many Linux experts are already out of work.
Geoff
Re:No, you are brain-dead... (Score:1)
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Re:"Mandrake beats win2k" MCSE (Score:1)
At work I've been able to get some of our MCSE Gates clones to switch to Linux and Gnome using Mandrake. They tried RedHat but complained about it being too difficult. I hope Mandrake can solve their problems and get some product on the shelf, and developers on the keyboards soon.
I have a couple of Linus fans at work and I've tried to convince them to use and program for Windows 2000, but everytime they throw up their hands: "This ATL is too hard! COM is too hard! MTS gives me a headache! ISAPI modules are too difficult for me to comprehend! ActiveDirectory is too complex!" Eventually, after spouting anti-MS rhetoric to whoever would listen (to justify their failures) they rebooted their Linux which they could understand easier. I suppose they just couldn't handle the hard world of Windows. I plan on trying again in a couple of years.
Re:"Mandrake beats win2k" MCSE (Score:1)
I'm not a big fan of PC Anywhere (nice program but man did it cause a lot of system faults [as it hooks into the video driver/GDI], not to mention that the scripting was seriously broken in several ways), though I've had fantastic success with Netmeeting : It's fast and VERY reliable. However there's virtually no reason to ever need the GUI to administer 2000 : Close to everything is accessible via remote management tools that while providing a nice GUI communicate over a small pipe commands.
Re:Is the shakeup for financial reasons ? (Score:1)
ObJectBridge [sourceforge.net] (GPL'd Java ODMG) needs volunteers.
Re:What can we do to stop this from happening agai (Score:5)
How many proprietary companies went down in the past year? How many closed-source/non-[F|f]ree companies slashed their staff, killed off the management team, and "refocused"?
Does it even enter the realm of remote possiblity that perhaps many of these companies weren't focusing on a business model that generates income?
Yes, Mandrake can be had for free. I tend to buy the boxed set - because waiting to download a few ISOs is a pain in the ass, and because it is indeed the point of this whole thing.
It is probably more that they don't offer much of anything else beyond a nice distro: and that's where they're screwed. It has nothing to do with the GPL.
RH has certification, consultants, and a varied business (with Cygnus, etc). They've got partnerships. They've got industry recognition. If you were to ask Ballmer which Linux company they fear (or are concerned with), I'd bet dollars to donuts his answer would be Red Hat.
Mandrake made a great product - I'm using Mandrake 7.2 right now, and intend to buy 8 RSN - but they didn't have the varied model RH has. They aren't getting preinstalled on Dell or IBM. They aren't the 'gold standard' of compatibility.
I'll be sad to see them go, if they do. OTOH, I can always use Debian, Red Hat, or Slackware.
Who's actually leaving... (Score:5)
There is talk of Mandrake hiring a lot of their support staff back on a contract basis, to provide tech support here in the NA.
Re:What's wrong with Mandrake? I'll tell you (Score:1)
questions there.
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Re:Mandrake is NOT! out of money... (Score:1)
This is a damn good idea. A mandrake linux magazine! I'd definately buy that. They could have 2 sections, the newbie and the expert sections where they cover general use (newbie) and software details (programming, server software, etc. expert). Hmm, maybe a subscription based online magazine would do it (but I'd prefer to have it in print if possible). Something else that they could do with the subscription is make available the periodic updates.
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Support Mandrake if you use their distribution (Score:2)
Re:It was Distribution (Score:1)
Download a copy, try it, and if it is worth it, support the people that made it happen. Code, money, whatever. Communities are a two-way street and if we don't support developers how can they support us?
After having heard the refrain over and over that Linux is great for the end user because it's free as in beer, I think it would be a pretty shitty thing for its advocates to start trying to lay a guilt trip on people who chose it for that very reason.
I'd hope that won't eventually become a future Info World review dot-point. Good: Free for the cost of download. Bad: Communities are a two way street, so you owe the developers (you lazy ass!).
Cheers,
Re:Possible Outcomes (Score:1)
Why does it seem more and more that Linux advocates see IBM as some savior on a par with Linus himself?
Cheers,
Re:Wake-up call (Score:1)
"But you told me to switch from Windows because I would save money because Linux is free of charge. Now that I've switched, I'm supposed to feel guilty that I took you up on your offer?" Sorry, but if it's time for anyone to put their money with their mouths are, it's not the people you brought in with all the free talk.
Cheers,
Re:It was Distribution (Score:1)
I'm talking about the "sales pitch" given to current Windows end users, not to Windows developers. I think it's pretty a rare occurence when the GPL is used as an argument in these cases rather than the free beer aspect. Do you disagree?
Cheers,
Re:sigh (Score:1)
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Re:Not them too! (Score:1)
It's Free Software. You can't be stranded. That's one of the major features. (Compare that situation to what you do if the maker of Windows, MacOS, BeOS, AmigaOS, OS/2, etc goes out of business or drops the product or whatever. Now that is what it's like to be stranded.)
Worst case: you end up having to use the final Mandrake, or maintain/update it yourself by cruising Freshmeat every few weeks.
Better case: some other distro maintainer decides that they like the last Mandrake so much, that they take it over. There are no barriers to this sort of thing happening, other than work.
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Re:Stranded (Score:2)
You've got things backwards. No serious commercial development != stranded. The GPL is what prevents the stranding from taking place.
I use AmigaOS at home and OS/2 at work. So believe me, I know all about what it's like to experience a lack of "serious commercial development." And since those platforms are closed, "serious commercial development" is the only development that can ever take place. If the IP owner decides that it's not worth it, then it just doesn't happen. GPLed code is never hostage to that type of reality, and always has potential for development, whether that happens to be "serious commercial" or otherwise.
So please, don't tell an Amiga/OS2 guy like me that GPL results in stranding. I wish that my favorite software received -- or even could receive -- even a fraction of the maintenance and development that Free Software gets.
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mandrake's not the only one (Score:2)
The problem is determined by the situation (Score:2)
So I try blind fumbling through all the possible choices of names, taken three at a time, mixing in TCP/IP numbers just in case. And I still haven't been able to log on to a server or print to a printer. This has been true for several different distributions. Mars/NWE didn't help. Caldera didn't help (though that disk may have been bad). Red Hat didn't help. (FWIW, I've been through 4 distros in several versions, Debina, Red Hat, Caldera and Mandrake. These were largely distros that were purchased as boxed sets, though not Debian, of couse, and frequently I got the upgrades as CheapBytes disks.)
When the external disk that I was running Linux off of died, I didn't replace it. (I didn't try Red Hat 7.1, as the disk had died by then, but I recently had a chance to ask some Red Hat techs, and was told that the workstation logon probably wouldn't work, though Caldera had some drivers... [see list in prior paragraph]). I use Linux exclusively at home, but at work I need to use the LAN.
Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
Re:*BSD is dying (Score:2)
Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
Re:sigh (Score:2)
And OpenOffice.org is open source, so no guilt required. Plus they got rid of that annoying desktop thing.
Re:sigh (Score:2)
Of course, that could have something to do with the fact that I build all my own boxes...
Re:The problem is determined by the situation (Score:1)
Re:Damn... (Score:3)
Ambiguous sentence. (Score:1)
Hopefully you didn't mean that the way it sounds.
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Re:Desktop Developers... (Score:2)
No they aren't; I did some contracting work for MandrakeSoft, and I was asked to use GTK for the interface, because that's what everything else used. I would've preferred Qt, but hey, what can you do? I got the impression that these types of decisions aren't made at the developer level, they're made a bit higher up.
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Re:Look at the bottom line - not so fast (Score:4)
When executives are let go in groups, it is very, very rarely an issue of budget cuts.
For example, when you hear companies taking hits, and they need to drop staff, who do they drop first? The visionaries? The guys at the top? Why would they can themselves? If they knew of severe budget problems, they'd stand up in front of the press, talk about it, and either quit or find other jobs to get into. People who know about really tough budgets usually find a graceful way out, or else they start canning the low-level staff.
On the other hand, when there's personal disputes, the low-level staff keep their jobs. For example, if there was a battle between the Yanks and the French, with major disagreements, that's when you see the kind of executive bloodbath that Roblimo talks about in the article. You see people get sacked en masse without a chance to talk to the press first, or to spin it their way. Executives never get sacked en masse as a result of budget problems, because they're the ones making the budget. The only way that happens is if you have dissatisfied funders or shareholders - which of course, could still be the case here.
Re:"Mandrake beats win2k" MCSE (Score:4)
I rarely make book recommendations, but when you said that, you caught my eye. I'm an MCSE in the process of switching over to Mandrake, and I've got the perfect tool for your conversions: "Linux for Windows NT/2000 Administrators, The Secret Decoder Ring" by Mark Minasi with Dan York and Craig Hunt. It's put out by Sybex, and you can find it at your local big bookstores on the shelves. The book is outstanding. I tried to make the leap several times, but I couldn't do it until I got this book.
It explains everything in terms Windows admins can understand, and it's even honest about the advantages of both platforms. It's the first book I've seen that really makes the transformation easy.
Re:It was Distribution (Score:2)
I think they'd be better off continuing to put out release candidates until they get one that - as is - they're happy enough to put out as the retail release (and final ISO download if they want to continue doing that).
I tried the "release" 8.0 download, and among other issues found that:
- the 2.4.3 kernel they install by default (it also comes with a 2.2 kernel) suffers from the VM failures that were still unfixed as of recent 2.4.4-ac versions. Symptom - under heavy swap conditions, the kernel will just kill processes (in my case parts of KDE) in a temporary hack attempt to keep going.
- the aic7xxx (Adaptec SCSI controll driver) they ship with is broken to the extend that you may or may not be able to install off a SCSI CD (at best it will take 3hr+ due to SCSI timeouts and retries). This is a known reported issue. I got around it by copying the CD to disk and doing a disk based install, then installing a newer kernel.
Unfortunately Mandrake's way of doing things is that they release the last release candidate plus bug fixes, so it's anbody's guess whether the retail version fixes any of the 8.0 "release" download issues.
Re:It was Distribution (Score:3)
You never see people complaining about not being able to download SuSE ISO's, or about SuSE being $29.95 (official version) rather than Mandrake's $3.49 at cheapbytes.
Linux many be free software, and none of us need a distribution, but we all recognise the value of them and use them. It's a pretty odd business model for Mandrake to create a product that people clearly want and then give it away! Sure if they stop providing free downloads or allowing ISO distribution people will whine, but as long as they provide a product we want and do so at a reasonable price (they do - it's 29.95 same as SuSE), then we'll buy it.
Right business decision, wrong villian (Score:2)
Re:It was Distribution (Score:2)
Either way paying $50.00 for a box at staples is far cry from paying $50.00 per user to MS.
Nooooooooooo! (Score:2)
I love Mandrake. Redhat is nice, but do a search on
rpmfind.net and see what comes up most. Mandrake
has more recent builds on almost all packages than
Redhat ever has. Nicer bootup system, more recent
kernel builds, better desktop configuration tools, it
would be a shame to lose it! Especially since the 8.0
release was so highly acclaimed!
::sob::
Say it ain't so, Mandrake! Say it ain't so!
--
Shaun Thomas: INN Programmer
Re:Will the same thing happen to BSD (Score:1)
Re:Look at the bottom line - not so fast (Score:3)
When executives are let go in groups, it is very, very rarely an issue of budget cuts.
Well, this depends how much they are paid... There was a rumor that they were paid a LOOOOOOOOOOOT... Not sure how it went exactly but the following scenario makes sense:
sigh (Score:3)
Not even a nicely GUI-filled, easy to use distribution as Mandrake made a difference to people who love the ease of MS based products. I've never used Mandrake, but have seen co-workers use it, and claim it to be the easiest to use of all the Linux distributions.
If this is the case, then why haven't many MS users switched over to something so easy. Is it the way some of these companies market themselves, which is close to zero when it comes to mainstream magazines, or is it that too many distributions add to the confusion or something.
So far so good for Redhat however who is managing to keep in the game, and for all the Linux users, just hope this is the last distribution to go under, else your going to have some massive "Linux is dying" trolls. Not to mention (which is most important) a sad showing of the possible overall outcome for Linux, should they not hurry and capture a large portion of the home pc segment.
Re:sigh (Score:2)
Also note that Bynari [bynari.com] now ships an Outlook/Exchange compatible mail client that makes fitting into an MS network a lot easier. I think it may be closed source, though, not sure.
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Random thoughts about layoffs, Mandrake (Score:2)
Thought 1: when the seniors are cut and the line employees kept, it's usually due to a shareholder/board decision, for serious business-plan shifts or no-confidence votes. Conversely, when the line employees are cut, it's a decision within the company to reduce complexity but keep the same basic direction.
Thought 2: as a Linux newbie, I tried fresh Mandrake 8.0 iso's first. Tried to get it to work for a Toshiba 1715XCDS crappy laptop. The installer seemed to work okay, but once the installer quit, the actual system was flaky, especially the way Toshiba's lcd/crt switch worked. That, combined with the sugary cute penguin mascot junk EVERYWHERE, I decided to back-step to Red Hat 7.1 which worked much more reliably (though still a couple gotchas). Mandrake was much too cutesy and maybe too bleeding-edge untested.
Thought 3: another poster made this observation but I thought I'd amplify it. I downloaded ISOs because I wanted more recent versions than were available at Wal*Mart and Best Buy. I would have paid the money either way, to support the companies involved. I'd support modest premium fees for not-yet-boxed ISO images from a fastish FTP site.
Look at the bottom line (Score:2)
Re:sigh (Score:3)
I use Mandrake (7.2) in a mostly MS-only workplace and I find it quite annoying to recieve all those Word Excel and Powerpoint documents by e-mail. For some of them, abiword or kword is OK, gnumeric is sometimes OK, but it's far from being optimal.
Re:sounds like Eazel to me (Score:4)
(I work for Red Hat as a developer)
Market share != profit (Score:2)
Let me tell you a classic story. One day, the two ethnic brothers decided to go into business selling watermelons. They got a truck, bought a truckload of watermelons at a dollar apiece, and then sold them in the marketplace at a dollar apiece. Their product sold like hotcakes; in fact, the brothers had cornered the market. After several loads of watermelons, they discovered that -- because of the expense of fuel for the truck -- they had not only failed to make money but had less than before.
"I told you, you idiot," said one ethnic brother to the other. "What we need is a larger truck."
--Brett Glass
FreeBSD lives; Walnut Creek and BSDi were bought (Score:3)
--Brett Glass
Re:sigh (Score:2)
To try Linux, yes.But I doubt it is enough to use Linux as their primary OS (or only one- double booting is a geek thing which many normal PC users find strange and cumbersome).
Things which prevent people from accepting Linux are:
Re:"Mandrake beats win2k" MCSE (Score:2)
Hopefully they'll stick it out. (Score:2)
My work, on the other hand, standardized on Mandrake long ago.
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Re:It was Distribution (Score:2)
Desktop Developers... (Score:2)
Re:Debian Shakeup (Score:2)
Maybe these recent events will show people that Debian is the Linux distro that adheres the closest to the free software movement.
Re:Wake-up call (Score:2)
Q: I've got a problem
A: Do this, this, this and this.
Q: Great, that worked!
A: Cool, pay me.
This rarely happens. Not in windows. Not in Linux. More often than not, you get better answers from free, public forums. On top of that, what stops third-parties selling support? I understand the focus is corporate support, not support for home users, but still, it is rarely worth it.
The simple fact is, people are going to have to start paying for Linux. It's not fair, but if it doesn't happen sooner or later, a lot of great stuff like Mandrake (my distro of choice, it rocks too damn hard) might go under. There are lots of ways to do this - create cheaper "light" versions. Make it free for "non-commerical use". Making money off "support" is destined to go the same was as making money off banner ads did.
Re:sigh (Score:2)
StarOffice is no substitute for MS Office, unfortunately.
I have everyone send me there documents in HTML, even MS Office reads that. If I recieve an MS Office file and StarOffice won't read it, I send it back and request the document in HTML format.
Jesus died for sombodies sins, but not mine.
Re:What can we do to stop this from happening agai (Score:2)
OK, let's flesh out your metaphor a little more. The US Constitution established rights for citizens, true, but it also established a government and made provisions designed to ensure that the government would be likely go continue.
If the Constitution had been written like the GPL, it would have had the Bill of Rights, but no provision for raising taxes. We may not think of paying taxes as a privelege, but if all our soldiers had been sent home for lack of funds and the Soviets had invaded we would have quickly realized what a privelege it was.
In short, a balance between business and consumer is required. By attempting to shift that balance too far towards the consumer, the GPL limits itself. "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn" (Deuteronomy 25:4) but that is exactly what copyleft does.
Re:What can we do to stop this from happening agai (Score:5)
Oddly, the founder of a wildly successful free company doesn't agree. "I saw [in the GNU Manifesto] a business plan in disguise." Michael Tiemann, Future of Cygnus Solutions: An Entrepreneur's Account [oreilly.com].
Why tools and solutions companies like Cygnus (and Ars Digita, and Ada Core Technologies, and CodeSourcery) have had more success with free software than retail and support companies is an interesting question. Perhaps you should look into it instead of making wild and inflammatory claims.
In other news (Score:2)
So we have unprofitable easy to use distros like Mandrake cutting back and we have profitable difficult ones like Slackware being cast adrift.
Will some one wake me when this starts to make sense?
Discloser: I have slack on one box and mandrake on the other because faux-wife should not be made to use slack and i should not have to use mandrake.
keep going in the face of adversity (Score:3)
*yes I know he meant the Mandrake team, but I wasn't able to resist.
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Re:sigh (Score:3)
My point with that is that I think it should be encouraged that once people settle on a distribution that works right for them, that they go out and buy a boxed copy off the shelf. In most cases, what you get for your money is a lot more than what you get for the download time.
Second, I'd like to vent about the number one thing that irritated me about Mandrake: the ridiculous RPM dependencies. For example, a program I'm installing tells me it requires gtk+-1.2.6-14, where I have gtk+-1.2.6-12. Or another program requires some PDA-related package, where I don't have a PDA. Sure, I could just use --nodeps and it'll probably work, but I didn't know that at first and newbies won't either. Seeing those warning messages will only make them afraid that something might break if they don't get all of the required packages. And having to find and download those packages will only frustrate them. That's not newbie-friendly in my opinion. Serious improvements need to be made to RPM's dependency system in order to fix this, IMO.
Re:Ok, I'm a hypocrite. (Score:2)
Go grab your credit/check card and give $5 or $10 and put our money where our mouth is. I'm going to now.
It was Distribution (Score:4)
An interesting point - the GPL does not require providing FTP access to the distribution free of charge, particularly before a boxed version of the product is available. I was no huge fan of what Libranet did by charging for the download, but in a moment of rare clarity I realized if the choice is to have a fee based download or boxed purchase versus losing a distribution, I would gladly pay. I have purchased 2 versions of RedHat (5.2 and 7.1) solely because I believe in supporting companies that have empowered me. not everyone can create a Debian - it is a special group of people that make things like Debian happen.
I don't think I am alone when I say I don't mind paying for Free Software. As oxymoronic as that sounds, developers need to eat. Companies need to make money. Hopefully Mandrake will rebound and solve their issues. In the interim - for those of us with the means - we should consider buying a single copy of our favorite distro, or donate to Free Software projects we value. Download a copy, try it, and if it is worth it, support the people that made it happen. Code, money, whatever. Communities are a two-way street and if we don't support developers how can they support us?
Re: (Score:2)
I saw this on Mandrake's website (Score:2)
Redhat - 30.7%
Suse - 23.8%
FreeBSD - 5.6%
Caldera - 2.5%
Corel - 2.3%
Turbolinux - 1.2%
With 33.8% US Market share, how can they be loosing money?
Is the shakeup for financial reasons ? (Score:2)
I assume it was obvisouly for finicial reasons. I am quie supprised. Mandrake is a very popular distro. I admit they do not have much support services but it seems to be more aimed at the linux newbie market then server market due to its bleeding edgeness. I wonder how much profit a professional distro like Caldera or Redhat make on services for bussinesses vs profits on the sale.
I noticed SuSE is gaining alot of market share and may be close to toppling redhat in the US. The link [suse.com] is at there website so it may be biased.
Its also one of the most easiest install's I have ever seen. Easy installations is one of mandrakes main strengths and selling points. It also is very solid and bugfree and still has a unix flavor.
Perhaps the rise of SuSE and support profits for redhat have eaten mandrakes profit margins. I also noticed that alot of geeks who are angry at bugs in redhat and mandrake have switched to debian. Debian probably is the most solid distro non commercial distro out there. I believe its just competition thats hurting them.
Not them too! (Score:2)
I sincerely hope they don't go under, who would take up the slack? They've contributed a lot in the way of GUI setup and configuration tools.
In related news, TUX the penguin received (Score:2)
news that he was being let go effective immediately. When asked about it he said "It was difficult for them to keep me on posing for pictures and drawings, because it just looks like that I sit around all the time."
"Perhaps things would be better if there was a more viable business model or something" he continued, "but I hope to continue on in a voluntary role."
What's wrong with Mandrake? I'll tell you (Score:2)
MANDRAKE EXPERT, that's what's wrong. when you have an issue, you go to some 'expert' forum and they are pay schemes to get people to answer questions. this shifted focus away from some other community areas and created a 'FORK' in the community. now you don't just go to mandrake forum to discuss the OS and ask questions, those posts go to mandrakeexpert.com and to 'be an expert' is to register and ask to get questions sent your way.
let's just help each other, and be a community like we always have and scrap this mandrake expert concept, in Linux, we're all experts, that's what makes this a special place to be, there are no end users in an open world, and no-one should be thought of as an end user vs an expert.
that's just my twisted view on things, no-body will listen anyhow.
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Re:I'm an OpenBSD user, but... (Score:2)
I agree. Mandrake is by far the best distro for ease of installation and use. And at the moment, it is a better desktop OS than Red Hat, without losing compatibility with Red Hat...
The best of both worlds.
This is why I use Mandrake 8.0 on my desktop, and Red Hat 7.1 on my server, though Mandrake 8.0 has some VERY interesting, and easy GUI based setups for several of the server apps that is making me consider trying it out as a server.
This is what I do: I ALWAYS go buy a copy of the latest Red Hat or Mandrake (Have since 6.2 and 7.0 respectively). Why? Because I feel I should give something to the people who are giving me this software that costs FAR less than it's worth. $30-40 for a Linux distro is a far better deal than `Doze.
Mandrake Woe (Score:2)
Mandrake is doing though, what most tech companies are doing, laying off and firing people, although not as high level and drastic as Mandrake has done. I hope this doesn't affect their distro, (yes it will). Mandrake is such a high quality OS. I had RH first and get Mandrake later and stuck with Mandrake.
Survivor (Score:2)
Possible Outcomes (Score:2)
1) Mandrake keeps on doing what it does best - produce a desktop friendly distribution. This is my preferred outcome, and is not unreasonable. Mandrake are still one of the more popular distributions and their Macmillan publishing deal probably brings in more than a few bucks.
2) Mandrakesoft goes under - but the distribution keeps on going as a community project (a bit like Debian). Not unimagineable given the strong community involvement in the development of distribution releases through Cooker.
3) Mandrakesoft gets bought out by a big hardware company that can see a benefit in developing its own distribution. Imagine IBM buying up Mandrakesoft. So long as they maintain community involvement through Cooker, and partner this with the QA IBM could provide (especially with their own hardware) you could end up with a very good hardware/software combination indeed. Keeping a community involvement would be good for IBM (PR anyway) - they can move into the distribution game without antagonising community developers Given the work Mandrake have put into user-friendliness, if they wanted a desktop distribution, Mandrake is probably a good starting point.
Just a few wildly uninspiring thoughts....
Mandrake Shakeup - this is a good thing! (Score:5)
I have been watching this conversation go on for a day now and while tempted to reply have not done so until now.
I am an ex-Mandrakesoft employee. I did not leave the company as a part of the layoffs, but a few months prior to all of this going on. The writing was on the wall. I was seeing to much of Corporate America starting to grow within a company that wasn't a part of Corporate America. For those of you whom work in large corporations you can understand that.
It is my sincere beleif that what is going on is a good thing. Mandrakesoft has been through a turmendous amount of termoil over the last year primarily brought on by an American CEO and CIO that attempted to take a small, but very effective, Paris based company and jumpstart them into a .com IPO. There was a culture class.
I think that if people investigated a little further several of the people mentioned in the article left on their own accord, and not part of a layoff or a mass firing. I do not know all the details, but I will share mine. Please understand there may be some holes in my story as I do not want to do ANYTHING to hurt the company that I still believe in.
About a year and 3 months ago I left a very good job with Aetna Healthcare (Insurance) to go to work for Mandrake. I was hired because of my work on the KDE project, I had been doing packaging on my own and one day I got an email asking me if I would like to get paid for what I did. It was my dream job, however, never before hearing of a "hire by email" oppurtunity I thought long and hard before making the move. Close to 10 years with another company and moving to a small Paris based company was a really tough decision to make. When I made the move I took a $5,000.00 per year pay cut and a cut in bennefits as well. But it was worth it.
For the next 6 months I worked out of my home, relying on email and IRC and infrequent conference calls to communicate with my collegues. Then changes started happening. First, I started doing a lot of Linux training classes and some of these where for MandrakeSoft. Others for a small startup company in North Haven, CT named Innovation Software Group, LLC (http://www.innovationsw.com/training). These classes where soon picked up on by Mandrake management in Los Angeles (US office). I was asked by the US manager to put together a plan for starting training in the US. I was also given a change of job title to North American Training Coordinator.
Around this same time the new CEO started changing peoples job descriptions and brining a lot of outside people into the company. Most of these people had never worked outside of the Corporate world before. And had never even seen Linux before. Things suddenly became very political, and most of us found ourselves first out of the communication chain, and second unable to get any answers to questions we had. I do not know how it was for the people in the Paris office, but for me working remotly it was hell. Once of the few things a remote employee has to rely on is proper communication.
As a part of this communication gap came along the announcement of the purchase of a "training company" named CourseMetrics, out of Berkly, CA. This company was supposed to be an expert in training. Late in January I visited this company and came away with a very different opinion. It was a company in failure. It was a strugling .com company that for some unknown reason was being purchased. The people in that company did not even have an idea of what Linux was and all they had ever done in training was to write surveys. There was no bennefit to Mandrakesoft.
But this visit also showed me something else. I had the oppurtunity to observe our new mgmt in action. For a week I was around and watching all the US based managers that had taken a firm grip on all parts of Mandrakesoft. All of a sudden all IT functions where being directed by a US managers, sales by a US manager, and so on. The biggest concern for me was I was seeing the start of a corporate "you kiss my ass and I'll kiss yours" power play that I had seen before in my prior life at Aetna. I had no wish to go back to that life.
So I gave 60 days notice and gave them a few options to retain me. This didn't happen so I left.
I found out afterwards that the US managers whom I reported to never even informed the Paris managers of my reasons for leaving. I was a little surprised and dissapointed. They all thought that I was mad at Mandrakesoft and in truth I was worried and dissapointed. I will probably be forced to go back to work for a coproration, at 35 years old I do not have many options as I need to start thinking about retiring sometime in the next 30 years. I had really hoped that Mandrakesoft would take me there as I am still one of those people who believes in employee employer loalty and long term commitments.
The reason for me making this know is to make you aware that the changes that have happened are good things. I believe that with the management team led by Henri Poole out of the way only good things will happen. The prior management team (the founders) who have now regained control of the company have been able to do the job very well before and I think given the oppurtunity will do so again. The technical staff and the general support staff that remain in both the US, Canada, and in Paris are some of the most dedicated people I have ever met. We have seen the comments on newsforge about accepting pay cuts to help the company survive. I will almost put money that most of them have accepted this in some way or another unless it was totally an imposibility. There is a lot of pride behind their product and rightfully so.
Please give them the benifit of the doubt, do not start rumors to hurt them, and please go to your nearest store and buy a boxed set. If you do not run Mandrake yourself, hey, give a copy to a friend who is still stuck in the Windows world.
I am currently working as an independent Linux instructor and the only build I feel comfortable teaching linux to newbies on is Mandrake. I do not want to see it go away or become less than a quality product.
Chris Molnar
molnarc@nebsllc.com
Re:Mandrake Woe (Score:2)
Shouldn't that be "... base ..."
If you're gonna do it, do it right!
Re:Not them too! (Score:2)
That's my fear, too. I'm a linux "newbie" and I freely admit it. So, am I going to be stranded now? I've tried a couple of other distros (Red Hat and Corel)...and before I get any snide remarks about that, read the first line again.
I know that Mandrake came from Red Hat, but they're different now, are they not? So am I going to have to start my 'education' over? I really like Mandrake and I hope these are temporary setbacks, but if they're not I really hope somebody steps up and helps out us new guys.
Whether or not you like to admit it, Linux has a steep learning curve. Especially for those of us who haven't had college courses in C and Unix. Personally I have no desire to spend forever learning every tweak and command to get my OS to work right...I want minimal hassle between install and "up and running"...and I think that's what the 'masses' (read: MS drones ready to jump ship) want, too.
We can preach all day about the superiority of Linux, but what does it matter if the only ones who believe it are the ones who are preaching? Mandrake went a long way (IMHO) toward reaching out a hand to those of us wanting to escape Microsoft (especially before XP comes out and gets rammed down our throats *shudder*) who were afraid of the complexity of Linux.
I'm not saying Mandrake was perfect, but they were easy enough to get even me online! If they go, I sure hope someone else moves into their place.
I really like Linux, and I'd like to see it take off as a desktop OS, but without people catering to the new guys, then I can't see that many people will be enticed away from their comfy little Microshelters.
Wake-up call (Score:2)
It is a shame to see Mandrake take the hit. They really helped but Linux on the desktop and promote KDE as a viable desktop.
PS> I don't use Mandrake or KDE but I recognize their acheivments. And yes evevry distribution I own is an "official" boxed set and I have bought boxed sets that I don't use on a regular basis to support those companies. They make great gifts.