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Linux Software

Embedded Linux at COMDEX 59

Posted by CmdrTaco from the stuff-to-hack-on dept.
discovercomics sent us a nifty report from MSNBC telling the tale of the Embedded Linux Devices that were present at COMDEX. They talk about the IPAQ, The Yopy, the Axis 2100 network camera (which is cool, but expensive), and more.
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Embedded Linux at COMDEX More

Embedded Linux at COMDEX

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  • I'd have to say I agree with your top-level point:
    The current wave of devices with embedded Linux as their operating system is going to be a relatively short-lived one IMHO. Not because Linux is particularly bad for this sort of thing, more because Linux isn't particularly good for this sort of thing.
    but not your specific reasons for it.
    The fact is that no matter how hard you try to cut Linux down it's still too bloated for a device that doesn't require the full functionality that a modern OS provides.
    First off, Linux isn't especially "modern" - it's a macrokernel version of Unix - a basic approach that has been around longer than I've been alive. Second, the kind of features you mention below are in fact immensely useful for small devices. I'll hit each in turn.
    What need does my camera have for pre-emptive multitasking....
    These kinds of devices are first and foremost interactive. Pre-emptive multi-tasking enables actions that require immediate response (e.g., user feedback, handling time-critical things like battery management) to happen regardless of whether someone writing application software followed guidelines or not. If this thing is running my car, you're damned tootin' I don't want some random piece of software to lock it up. Even if it's running my watch, I don't want that.
    or virtual memory?
    As a solution for providing staged memory, virtual memory could be incredibly useful in a small device where memory and power and such are at a premium - it would be great to be able to punt off some of the stack to low-power, slow, SRAM while high-power DRAM is dealing with a tight inner loop for pen feedback or phone protocols.
    When is my wristwatch going to need a stable threading model or SMP support?
    First, stable: When did your wristwatch last crash? Now, threading: I don't know about you but my watch does more than one thing. It's a multi-timezone deal, but also has a stopwatch (that runs whether or not it is visible), an alarm (ditto), and an address book. Now, given the way chips are often priced, might two cheap chips be more cost-effective than one bigger chip? Quite possibly.
    The answer to these questions is of course, they don't. A small, dedicated operating system is easily able to handle controlling these devices, and in a much more compact and efficient manner.
    This is a rephrase of the old "assembly vs high-level" argument. Will you be able to do something smaller and more compact? Sure. But you'll make sacrifices elsewhere in time to market, flexibility, support, etc.
    Just as Linux is having trouble scaling up to big iron, it has trouble scaling down to small devices.
    What do you mean by "big iron"? I certainly would not consider myself a Linux zealot (I happen to conceptually favor microkernels), but a massive Beowulf cluster seems pretty "big" and "iron" to me. Is Linux the best solution for supercomputing? Probably not, but it certainly works.

  • I've seen a number of embedded projects hit serious and expensive delays because of bugs that only manifested deep in a kernel for which no source was available (or was not available at a cost a small company could afford). This has two effects that will promote Linux:

    1. Proprietary real time OSs can add substantially to project cost and time. Further, this is hard to predict. This is especially true if the project is not exactly what the OS vendor initially had in mind in terms of target hardware and application.

    2. Engineers HATE long unpredictable delays in their projects caused by lack of access to stuff they think they could fix if it was available. This is driving a lot of internal motivation to try Linux for embedded projects whereever possible.

    Of course the Linux hype is a factor. For example, it may well be one of the reasons that some projects look at Linux instead of eCos, which is also open source.

  • I respectfully disagree with you. I think the reason Linux is and will remain to be popular for embedded applications is that each vendor doesn't have to recreate the wheel. In this case, Axis didn't have to write an operating system for their camera, or a http or ftp server either. Their little web server is some open source web server (no, not Apache). So rather than create an OS and a web server, they just pull together what they need from the open source community. After all, isn't interchangeable parts what made the whole industrial revolution thing work in the first place?

  • I'd like to make a counter point as to why I think Linux would make a good choice for embedded solutions. Note that I have several years experience as an embedded software engineer so my opinion my be a bit biased :)

    Let's start with product development. When it comes to the operating system, whether it be a simple task switching executive or a full fledged operating system like Linux, WinCE, QNX, etc., there are 2 routes to take. One, roll your own or two, get one off the shelf. Rolling your own is extremely expensive to a company. Not only does it cost money to pay for the engineering, but it takes engineers away from working on the actual application of the product. That leaves getting an off the shelf opoerating system. (Admittedly, off the shelf operation systems won't work in all cases, but generally they get job done.)

    To continue with product development... The ability to run an embedded product's code on your development workstation and the embedded device is a tremendous advantage. Host side development tools tend to be easier and more reliable. The API on a Linux workstation happens to be identical (with vfew exceptions)to the API on an embedded device running Linux. WinCE has a similar but slightly incompatible API to Win32. Target side development tools are more difficult and less reliable because they tend to rely on precisely setup configurations. Not to mention that there is an added step to trying out new code when you fix a bug. With target side debugging you have download the new code after each build which could take longer than the build depending on method of communication with the target.

    Most readers of Slashdot know about the Linux kernel's configurability and modularity, so I wont spend too much time on that. Suffice it to say you only compile in support for stuff you need like SMP (which very few embedded projects need).

    Networking. More and more embedded devices need networking support. The Linux kernel with various userland programs provides a rather complete set of networking capabilities. Whether it be serving web pages describing system status, web browsing Slashdot on a train through a web pad, or some mundane SNMP control, Linux will fit the buill.

    As to Linux's "bloat", when Linux first appeared on the scene almost 10 years ago, 16Meg of RAM was prohibitively expensive for mony desktops, much less embedded devices. However, 16Meg today is nothing. 16Meg will fit on a single chip instead of several SIMMs. The capacity of hardware has grown much faster than the size of the Linux kernel.

  • heh, I want a dual processor wristwatch running Linux. It could play mp3's, be a webserver (so I could see what time it was from anywhere on the internet), and act as a firewall for glasses (the last thing I need is some cracker messing up my display).
  • Things Linux could tell you about your car:

    You have 3.1415926 gallons of gas. Kewl!

    It is 1.78324 miles from home to the Post Office

    You have new mail.

    The car is emitting 32.1 ppm SO3

    It has been 2999.98 miles since last oil change

    Radar detected, Cloaking Device enabled.

    The Right passenger weights 183.772 pounds

    Tire air pressure (PSI): 36.3 LF, 34.9 RF, 28.3 LR, 37.0 RR

    Drag coefficient 0.28 @ 65 mph

    Velocity 57.42 mph, fuel usage 36.11 mpg.

    Scanned local radio stations and found 3 Country, 6 Hispanic, 18 Lite Rock, 2 Hard Rock and 5 Pirate.

    Audio Storage: 5,772 MP3 recordings.

    Um. This would rule.

    --

  • These "embedded" devices like the Yopy and
    Ipaq are actually running standard linux distributions that are tweaked for the ARM
    processors. It is not an embedded linux any more
    than my Linux Desktop.

    Linux's strength is the ease with which it can
    be ported to new targets. As mentioned in another post,
    it is open source and can be debugged easier than Windows CE.

    Yopy, Ipaq, and PalmPilots are not tough embedded
    environments. They are usually dealing with a user
    not a demanding RF interface like a cellular protocol.
    As such, they can provide lots of nice
    user level apps and GUI's but I wouldn't want
    Linux running my cellular air interface.

    Linux solves most "real-time" issues by using smart peripherals,
    big buffers, DMA and fast processors.

    The memory size, processor speed, and those color
    displays all consume lots of battery power; hence
    the relatively low battery life. Maybe this is
    a factor in why there are so few products on the
    market, but lots of "concept" products.

    These concept products keep the big players on the
    leading edge and give them bragging rights. If a
    serious market developes with a high enough volume
    the big players have a concept they can turn into
    a real product. If a market does not develope
    at least they got some cool press and the cool image may assist in
    selling other products.

  • with automatic shoot-and-post to amihotornot [amihotornot.com]

    Or, alternately, a radar-and-cam set up that scans the locality, finds people, automatically rates them, and gives you a heads-up for any 9's or 10's.

    Ah. . .better living through technology !!!
    (grin, duck, and run. . . .)

  • Modded down because I acknowledge there are some rather nice non-Linux solutions?

    Pussy.

    BeIA [be.com]
    Real Audio, MP3, SSL, CCS, PersonalJava, Javascript, email client and much more in 6 meg.

    QNX [qnx.com]
    Just a damn fast browser. Alebit lacking a few features.

    The Linux Internet Appliances seem to take longer to bring to market than the other solutions, at least that is the case with QuBit and a few others. The Linux version will follow the BeIA version by some nine months, I hear.

    Information Appliance Comparison by Be, Inc. [be.com]

    Like Gortician gives a fuck.
  • Troll????? No, damnit! I really would like to have linux embedded in my coworker's skull - I have damn good reason to believe that they are not really mentally stable, and I was implying that linux may help that situation. Yes, offbeat humor, but a troll... come now, I merely warped.

    And the monkey thing... that'd just be damn funny, in a sick, non-PETA sort of way.

  • Perhaps with more companies looking to be a part of LBE and more of them buying the large "pavillion" type floor space areas complete with seats for presentations and even a boxing ring, - the Hilton didn't have the floor space the LBE wanted so it was moved.

    Slashdot poll: Who would you most like to see in the LBE boxing ring?

    • Debian vs. KDE
    • vi vs. Emacs (Bill Joy vs. RMS?)
    • Gnome vs. Enlightenment
    • Michael vs. Lars Ulrich
    • RMS vs. ESR
  • "Thank you for pressing the self destruct button. Have a nice day."
    _____________
  • I had a Palm III just up and die on me one day. No combination of the buttons would bring it back to life, and I treated it with the utmost of care. Fortunatly Palm send me a replacement unit in 1 day and I've had no problems since.

    Good thing HotSyncing is basically backing up your Palm every time you run it (execpt for the address book, those records never seem to make it back on the palm, Grrr). I'd bet the Palm Pilot users are among the best when it comes to backups for just this reason (even if these same people have never backed up their home/work computer).
  • I think that people are focussing very narrowly on what the definition of an "embedded device" is, so much so that they overlook certain things. Embedded systems are not only tiny things with a few KB of memory...

    For instance, a compact PCI board with a G4 chip and a Gig of RAM with dual 100Mbit ethernet ports runs Linux perfectly well and qualifies as an embedded system.

    In a case like this the firmware loads the kernel and ramdisk image off a bootp server, you NFS-mount whatever else you need, and whee! you've got a system that is technically embedded and yet can be easily upgraded.
  • If you stop by the IBM Wearables Lab in New York, you can take a look at a wristwatch that runs on linux, and leverages its stable threading model.

    Palm OS and Windows CE are great for doing PDA's, but when you decide to install them onto a VCR or a car stereo you will find them considerable less flexible or configurable than Linux. Everyone here knows how easy it is to get a minimum footprint of Linux running with only the modules you need. And Linux's licensing terms are considerably more flexible than Palm or WinCE.

    I am working in the technical strategy phase on a consumer appliance that will be Bluetooth-enabled. Linux lets us get coding right off the bat with the great drivers at Axis [axis.com].

    Try coding and testing Bluetooth support with one of the commercial embedded OS's!

    Corby

  • The current wave of devices with embedded Linux as their operating system is going to be a relatively short-lived one IMHO. Not because Linux is particularly bad for this sort of thing, more because Linux isn't particularly good for this sort of thing.

    The fact is that no matter how hard you try to cut Linux down it's still too bloated for a device that doesn't require the full functionality that a modern OS provides. What need does my camera have for pre-emptive multitasking or virtual memory? When is my wristwatch going to need a stable threading model or SMP support?

    The answer to these questions is of course, they don't. A small, dedicated operating system is easily able to handle controlling these devices, and in a much more compact and efficient manner. Just as Linux is having trouble scaling up to big iron, it has trouble scaling down to small devices.

    The real reason Linux is being touted as the solution to hardware manufacturer's problems is simply that it is the flavour of the month in the eyes of the industry. As a succesful IT consultant I'm getting loads of interest in Linux from companies looking to cash in on the tech-savvy image that comes with Linux, rather than focus on the benefits it can bring in certain cases.

    Remember, last year it was all Windows CE, this year it's all Linux. Neither was the solution, and neither will last. You can't put a bulldozer to work building sandcastles and expect to get perfect crenellations.

  • It looks like the manufacturers are split about 50-50 between the people that are using Linux because they should and they believe in free software, and the rest are looking to shave a few more %% profit by cutting out wince. What are the odds you'll ever see the kernel mods done for the Acer PDA? Compare that with Axis, who has ported Linux to their own architecture and have the whole pile available for download on their site.
    Will we be seeing any GPL compliance suits from all this Linux use?
  • I'm using one of the Axis 2100 Cameras for security and it really works great. It runs 24/7. I capture the images on a Linux box and filter them out so I'm left with only images with "motion" in them. Works great. Everything's been rock solid for the last month, since the last change I made to my motion detection software. Now I just need a bigger hard drive for all those images...
  • Car jack me? Sure, you just have to figure out the root password, and I could always have a deamon which shuts down the car in 30 seconds if you don't know the ultra secret password.

    That's a rather scary idea there. So some guy with a gun gets only 30 seconds up the street from you... I think I rather not have him return my way after the car stalls. LoJack and a cell phone to call the police is what I'd rather have.

  • The 2100 is "cool but expensive"?? At 270UKP, it's a steal. I appreciate that it would be cheaper to hook up a 30-quid video camera to a frame grabber in an old box, but for those of us with massive investment in structured cabling, it's way cheaper than hooking up dedicated surveillance cameras, and they're very easy to move around.

    Of more interest is the 2120 [axis.com] (about 850UKP), which has built-in motion detection, 25fps (PAL) and it's weatherproof (I think. I read it somewhere but now I can't see it in the spec). Check out the live feed of 45 and 5th [axis.com] and stress test one of these beauties.

  • Fix a messed up PalmOS unit? Easy. Paperclip the sucker. Press down the power key to do a hard reboot (IIRC).
    Then, refresh the unit from the desktop. You'll lose everything since you performed the last backup. You do sync on a daily basis, yes?

    Part of the attraction of the PalmOS is that it is very easy to use. I have yet to see any unit that couldn't be rebooted. Unless it was run over by a truck or something.
  • To all the people who keep asking why anyone would
    want Linux on a PDA, here's a few ideas, and why
    as soon as my iPAQ shows up, Linux is getting installed:

    1. Python can be installed, this would be one of
    the most incredible time savers for me, as it would keep me from having to go back to my desk just to whip out scripts.

    2. Think, 802.11, and a real telnet client.

    3. Development. You _can_ develop for these devices with just a copy of gcc, forget WinCE where every time I see anything about coding for it, it's right along side a long description of all the expensive costs involved.

    4. One of my personal pet peeves with WinCE, it's impossible to change the font size as far as I can tell, if you can I certainly haven't found a way.

    5. Palm's screens are too small, as that whole lower third is taken up, so even with the IIIc (must have colour, it's not readable without it) the screen size is next to nothing.

    All in all, if Apple would release an udpated Newton, I'd buy one in a heartbeat, as it didn't have any of the problems I have with current PDA type devices. Though it still wouldn't address the idea of running Python or whatnot on it, but there were self hosted Newton Development enviorments. The next best thing is certainly not PalmOS, or WinCE, and Linux at elast _I_ can make it into what I want.
  • Did anyone else notice that this guy couldn't say ANYTHING positive about Linux without mentioning Win CE?

    On the Yopy...
    • it looks a lot like some of the last generation of Windows CE devices.

    On the Ipaq...
    • Compaq's iPAQ is currently the fastest Windows CE PDA on the market
    • the Linux version doesn't do as much as the CE version
    • using Linux on an iPAQ means giving up the built-in CE, but the Web site tells you what you can do if you ever want to restore it.


    [rant off]
  • The major difference between any M$ OS and any Linux distro (apart from the fact that Linux works, relentlessly :-) is that M$ insists on being in your face all the time and charging you all it can all the time.

    They don't have a sustainable model. They exist on the churn. People say, "Nah, this is good enough." and M$ starves for income. Diminishing revenues stops investors, M$ cash reserves dry up and M$, not having a sustainable business, disappears.

    Just like Adam Osborne did with the Osborne 1. Different reason (leaked info about the Osborne 2 dried up sales for the 1,) different time scale (M$ can bleed a lot longer,) but same result. One trick ponies die.
  • Quite frankly, most of them have been hot air. One or two have actually managed to demo a product. None of them seem to have actually produced anything yet though!
    Uhh... don't look now, but I think half a dozen companies and groups have Linux running on a handheld device. Oh, wait.... you mean applications, huh? You know, correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that Linux was an operating system.... hmmm... I can see where you got confused, with the whole Microsoft mess, since all of their applications are so nicely tied in with the OS.

    Designers are attempted to apply a desktop solution to an embeded problem. That never works!
    Unix didn't really start out as a desktop solution, did it? But it sure scaled nicely, well enough to cause everyone to forget where it originally came from.

    Linux may scale well upwords, but it doesn't scale well downwards
    Right.... I hate these modular operating systems. Its such a pain in the ass to cut out uneeded modules.

    It seems embeded Linux so far is a total no go. Once again, you're correct. www.handhelds.org [handhelds.org] only gets 10 or 20 thousand hits a day, anyway. Plus, they don't have Quake running on it yet. You call that an operating system? What a bunch of slackers...

  • Voice from inside dash: You have failed to identify yourself, termination sequence initiated. Have a nice day.

    --

  • Well, there's always that, but imagine a car with Windows: Blue Screen Of Death takes on a literal meaning, no?

    --

  • It's probably more public perception than a devious under-handed plot by Microsoft.
    I've been reading MSNBC off and on and they seem to be pretty neutral when it comes to reporting technology news. Microsoft may be helping with the software, but I don't think they control the editors.

  • They didn't mention iRobot (Score:3)

    by mr_gerbik ( 122036 ) on Tuesday November 21, 2000 @06:34AM (#609523)
    They didn't mention the iRobot [irobot.com]. This thing was shown at Comdex. Its robot that is controlled via a web browser. The robot runs on linux, uses a wireless connection.. there are a bunch of specs at the site.

    CNN [cnn.com] has some coverage of the irobot here [cnn.com].

    -gerbik
  • One word: Tivo... Then it was that company in UK that produced a mp3 player for cars... Then you have a bunch of VoIP devices... I'm telling you man, linux will do great on the embedded devices and a good reason is that you have the sources and you can adapt it for whatever platform you want... I'm telling you this from my own experience... that's what I do for a living:))
  • Ugh, I cringe at the sound of that stupid name ripped off from Apple's moronic nomenclature strategy. You need to hire the FBI just to track down an available one, and the battery life on it stinks (3 hours, as compared to the 8-hour Cassiopeia). And it ships with Windows CE, so you have to do a serious retooling just to get Linux on it. Considering its availability, buying an iPaq is about as sensible as buying Rambus.
  • Whoa! Kar Warz for real! I just can't see these things being misused - NOT!

    Still, a operating system for non-critical functions would be very, very cool. Why haven't I seen something like this yet? Think about it. People often list cars as including all service records, etc. With this you could post them on the web.

    --

  • I'm not sure what your experience with embedded systems is, but your views on linux's aplicability reflect that you either do not have experience with or are predjudiced towards another type (and certainly not CE as well).

    For starters, the linux kernel can be as compact as you like it. RedHat and Caldera are not ideal implementations in this case. There are several [linux-embedded.com] distrabutions and tools available. Some are available for free (Note, I just pulled the first link off of google - I didn't see the distro we use on this list).

    In development, most of our systems boot off of a compressed kernel floppy, in the field, our systems relly on DiskOnChip(DOC) and so forth to store the kernel and proprietary software.

    Stability is the key thing - that and usually script management, remote access (for resetting and reconfiguring devices), security (SSL can be tiny) and so forth. The best part is, I pay for the DOC and not for the distrobution (note: some of the mini distros are for expensive, some are free).

    There are more embeded systems than just consumer electronics. We do hefty amounts of utility work, percision measurement, robotics, data collectors and so forth...

    Linux as an embeded OS isn't a fleeting thing, we've been doing it for a few years. I've also implemented systems using CE with varrying degrees of success (sometimes our clients demand it, sometimes its the better solution). The bottom line is that it really depends on the a couple of things: application, development cost, planned maintenance cycle, product lifetime, product downtime, support cost, and unit cost. Yes, you can cheapen a development by going with CE, but expect higher downtime, a shorter lifetime, and higher maintenance costs. I would sooner create something that I can rely in though. We have linux products 700 miles away, still happily transmitting useful signals to our customers that have not been touched since the day of instalation four or five years ago. I can't say the same things about some of our CE products of even last year.

    Maybe we're one of the few companies which does things right (though I don't think so - none of us are kernel hacks and such), but I'd just say we're pretty good at designing a solid product.

    If it will fit on a floppy, its small enough for an embedded solution. I don't know, maybe Linux is no good for a camera, quite possible - I've never designed a camera. There are however, systems which can and do benefit from linux. Think outside the box of PDAs, cell phones, camcorders, and geek toys.
  • I often see people claiming (without any proof) that Linux changes too often for embedded, or that the software is too fragmented. Who cares if something is not the latest version if it still does the job it was designed to do? Linux 2.0.x kernels still run just fine...

    These days, most embedded Linux systems use a copy of the kernel, glibc 2.0.7 (or libc5 or uClibc), busybox [lineo.com], plus a copy of whatever applications they need. You will find that more and more, more embedded Linux systems are surprisingly similar at their core.

  • Who wants to learn how to fix a messed up palm, or send it to some one?

    Right. Who would want to fix a messed up palm? As the previous replier mentioned, it's much easier to just reset (the stylus head screws off for a reason) the Palm. I'd much, much, much rather tell an end (l)user to "just reset your palm and reload the applications" than spend twenty minutes figuring out that the (l)user in question corrupted the system libraries.

    Telling a user to reinstall their desktop is lazy and agruably an unethical waste of several hours of their time. Telling a user to reset and reload their Palm is lazy and arguable an ethical savings of the support person's time (it only takes a minute or three to restore a Palm).

    hymie

  • Linux Positioning at Comdex (Score:3)

    by ahg ( 134088 ) on Tuesday November 21, 2000 @07:19AM (#609530)
    A small correction but perhaps notable:

    Last year the Linux Business Expo was not in the main hall as the author suggests (that would include both the north hall and south hall of the Las Vegas convention center) but in the Hilton Hotel next door. This year, we were in the more distant Sands hotel. This positioning sucked - at least from my standpoint in the LinuxFund.org booth in the ".org" area sponsored by LinuxMall - but I don't think it was meant to in anyway marginalize the Linux Co's.

    I think Linux received far more floor space at the Sands than it did last year in the Hilton. Perhaps with more companies looking to be a part of LBE and more of them buying the large "pavillion" type floor space areas complete with seats for presentations and even a boxing ring, - the Hilton didn't have the floor space the LBE wanted so it was moved.

    The end result, we got about half the traffic we did last year. Others I spoke to agreed. Last year many Comdex attendees did not realize that there was a deidcated Linux Expo just next door, and were excited to check it out when they learned that "Linux" (some new fangled thing the market was excited about)was there for their exploration. We were not able to draw that crowd in this year when we were a shuttle bus ride away.

    Here's the upside for the LBE: - We grew while the rest of Comdex shrunk. Maybe this will allow us to command some floor space actually within the Las Vegas Convention center next year.
  • Most people simply don't need the power (drainage) of an uber-device like the iPaq or any other CE handheld for that matter. Sure an iPaq can play mp3s and movie clips, but it costs twice as much and eats through batteries. The reason that Palm is still winning is because good organizer software, price and a long battery life count for much more in the handheld market.
  • You're right, with those things, the ingredients for a wearable are all there. I'm guessing that the sleeve you mention would cost ... what, $250? (the current sleeve costs $160 at jandr.com, probably not the greatest price but first I checked -- so I hope $250 is pretty conservative.)
    Ethernet card? Well, I dunno what special thingies the iPAQ needs, but i have a nice linksys 56k & 10/100 PC card, so maybe I'm covered. VGA cards as PCMCIA, though ... the only one listed on Pricewatch is an HP that costs 156 dollars.

    The head-mounted display is the problem ... I've not seen any yet that I really liked.

    Still, since that's a cost you're going to have to face anyhow. you're right that this combo sounds like a pretty economical wearable!

    timothy

  • Silly bunny. Go read the article.

    Linux has already done all the things you said it can't.

  • Nice image from ads.msn.com on top of the article.
  • a massive Beowulf cluster seems pretty "big" and "iron" to me.

    The term "big iron" (in my experiance, at least) usually refers to very large SMP machines (in my experience, at least). They're considerably more difficult to tune an OS for than clusters, mostly because memory and communications are laid out very strangely to allow both fast and high-bandwidth access by a huge number of processors. Supporting hardware failover and hot-swapping in these systems isn't a cakewalk either.

    Linux, in various forms, has started to tackle these issues, but a kernel optimized for single-processor or small-count SMP machines won't work well on a huge SMP box, and vice versa.

    The point is that Linux is currently still missing a lot of features that traditional big iron operating systems already have, and probably won't implement them very well without a code fork into "small iron" and "big iron" kernels (which actually would be a good thing, IMO).
  • Actually... I am inclined to agree with you, 30 seconds is not a good enough head start for me.

    However, possibly 30 seconds later, the doors can lock, the car shut down, and the radio crank up to max volume :) Personally in my car, a max volume would blow up said car jackers head, or atleast leave him permanently deaf or hard of hearing.

    But I live in the US, he would sue me for making him deaf for car jacking my car.

    Bleh
  • but I'd be a lot happier to carry around (for instance) an iPaq and a visor than (as I often do) a laptop and a visor. The Visor is my addressbook, random-idea-on-subway, jotted-notes thing, the laptop is for modem / ethernet / typing stuff. With a folding keyboard and the PC card slots, a lot (most) of what I would use a laptop for could be done with the iPAQ (or a wearable, for that matter, but that goes without saying ...) For a reason that may sound silly (street cleaning), I often work for the hours of 11-2 every monday in my car. My laptop is too big to open comfortably in the driver's seat no matter how far I scoot it back.

    And as far as "people don't need" ... well, all these needs are relative anyhow. No one needs a standalone MP3 player either, but if a combo exists which saves space and number of breakable electronics, hey, sounds interesting.

    timothy

  • Well I didn't say "people don't need", I said "most people don't need". The point here is that while a handheld that plays mp3s makes a great geek toy the vast, vast majority of handheld owners buy their devices as electronic organizers and balk at devices that cost twice the price and do their jobs less well. Obviously the situation in the handheld market bears that out.

    Personally, I'd love an iPaq to play for many of the same reasons you suggest, but I can't imagine ever replacing my Palm Vx with it because the Palm is just so damned good at what it does.

  • Is embedding Linux a good idea? Because Linux changes so often, it would be obsolete even before the rom chips were burnt.
  • Car jack me? Sure, you just have to figure out the root password, and I could always have a deamon which shuts down the car in 30 seconds if you don't know the ultra secret password.

    Come to think of it... Cars should be networked, that way you could hack the jerk on the cell phone in front of you and make him think he's out of gas! =)

    --

  • "Red Hat, SuSE, Corel, Caldera, Slackware, Best, Storm -- you name them, they were there, telling attendees how their version of the open software operating system was better than all the rest"

    A big announcement made today was that a number of these companies have joined forces behind KDE desktop software -- to counter another group that favors the Gnome desktop interface.

    Just thr 1st few paragraphs of this article makes the Linux world look like it's filled with splintered factions of "Mine is better than yours" geeks and hackers. The KDE League, as far as I understand it, had NOTHING to do with 'countering' the GNOME Foundation...they don't even have similar purposes.

    Is this just more MS FUD (it *IS* Microsoft's news network...'where all news is bought and paid for!'), or is this really the public perception of Linux? If so, we need to do some things differently.
  • " We're about to see an explosion of all sorts of devices that have Linux running inside. "

    Someone better check out that bug! If these linux devices keep exploding, someone could lose an eye. And I wonder if it's just these devices, maybe my gateways will explode too. Oh God! Save us all!

  • Linux for all, or maybe not... (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I have lost count of the number of announcements and demonstrations with regard to Linux being squeezed into all of these weird systems.

    Quite frankly, most of them have been hot air. One or two have actually managed to demo a product. None of them seem to have actually produced anything yet though!

    The only reason i can think of for this is that embeded Linux systems sound great on paper, and look atractive to the accountants ("Hey, we can save money on the OS!"), but in practice the concept fails to deliver.

    You only need look at the sucess of properly designed embeded OS's to see that the market leaders are companies such as Palm & QNX. These are companies who have created their embeded operating systems from scratch, for that very purpose.

    Systems such as Windows CE & Emebeded Linux havn't done so well (Especially in the case of Linux), simply because they have not been thought out properly. Designers are attempted to apply a desktop solution to an embeded problem. That never works!

    Linux may scale well upwords, but it doesn't scale well downwards. Thats just reality, and these designers need to get over that. It seems embeded Linux so far is a total no go.

    T. Lee
  • Embedded devices will most likely not rely on tomorrows technology to get the job done - they're special purpose devices, and as such - stable, open source code - that the developers can tweak and release, giving the device all the functionality it needs and none that it doesn't... is a good thing (tm)
  • There is a big difference between latest-and-greatest and that which is suitable for the needs of a particular product. After all, what's the point of the latest drivers for the latest whiz-bang device when the device doesn't, and possibly never will, have said device?

    If the embedded software used is stable enough and sufficiently featureful, there's really no need to install kernel 2.9.10001030-pre5004-AC234 or whatever.

  • I'd like to have embedded linux installed in one of my coworker's skull... it'd have to be more stable than they are - plus, if they get on my nerves, I could just log-in and mess with 'em...

    Or, better yet, we could embed linux in the monkeys used in the SMBP [slashdot.org] to make the whole network more stable...

  • I think a great embedded linux machine would be a a small, inexpensive voting machine. You could make it less than $200, and would never have to recount again!
  • Actually... the docs that come with the camera lay out several methods of routing the camera's images through a more powerful web server, so the only thing pulling images from the camera is the web server, which then dishes them out to whomever. I'm not using mine this way (it's not accessible to the outside world), but it should work.
  • PalmOS currently dominates. The Visors are very cool, and there's all kinds of Palm stuff exploding everywhere.

    I think, however, the unforseen benefit to unix on a PDA, is just the true insurgence of the business world to unix. If these are cheaper, faster, and freely licensed I think you'll see Admins flocking to these because they can SUPPORT it. Who wants to learn how to fix a messed up palm, or send it to some one?

    ----

  • Yopy? (Score:1)

    by tweder ( 22759 )
    I was at Comdex/2000 and I searched high and low for the Yopy. Almost everyone I asked had absolutely no idea what I was talking about - and the one's that did weren't sure where it was, or if it was even at the show at all.

    I was able to check out Compaq's iPaq running linux. While it was pretty cool, it seemed to have some _serious_ stability problems. The guy who was demoing the unit had to reboot the thing three times just while I was watching. After cracking a joke about the thing running WinCE I nabbed some info and continued on my way through LBE.
  • Obsolete is the wrong choice of words there.

    Obsolete implies that something new completely replaced it (ie, a 1.2 gHz replaces a 500 mHz machine). As long the Linux version in question is able to support the hardware, you will be able to run the operating system and most software that comes out after. Thats because Linux builds on top of itself with each new release. There are major architecture changes, but those happen over a period of years, not months.

    By obsolete, you must mean a competing operating system with a year attached to it. You know, the one that changes architecture so often that you need to repurchase your $500 dollar office suites every few years, otherwise they will no longer run....
  • Can you imagine the number of hackers that would try to hack your car? It might make a good excuse not to go into work. It may get to the point where you would have to apply patches everytime you get your oil changed.
  • I used to laugh at the iPAQ, echoing the usual "ha! If it's that small, I want a long-battery life palm. Who needs more than that in a palm-top?!" argument, which argument I am not belittling;) [Got a visor last year which keeps on rocking despite drops and battery malnourishment.]

    However, now I've seen the iPAQ up close a few times (and the itsy, which has a much cooler shape and color!), and I'm 98 percent convinced that iPAQ (or similar) is an actually great idea.

    The cons:
    - battery life. No getting around it, only choosing better paths.
    - Whuddeye miss?

    The pros:
    - Bright, legible screen. Good enough that with an external keyboard, I'd be happy to use it for a writing station, and OK for it as a web-browsing thing as well, (perhaps with an even slimmer Galeon or a mini-Konqueror?)
    - plays mini-movies, MP3s, etc. Which might have been silly a few years ago, but when it's closer to trivial, it's hard to ignore.
    - 802.11 via plug-in module - email, in hand, on couch ....
    - Runs X (pro or con, your choice)

    In short, I think at $500 (plus accessories) this is coming in very well compared to other tiny computing choices, and even better then those tiny folding keyboards for it are widely avaible.

    timothy

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