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Linux Software

Dell & IBM Both Shipping Linux 160

Posted by CmdrTaco from the ain't-that-spiffy dept.
Several people noted that Red Hat is now partnering with Dell and offering Red Hat as one of its strategic operating systems, as well as shipping Linux web/proxy boxes to Lexus and Toyota dealerships. But thats not all... Big Blue apparently is now shipping T20 Thinkpads with Caldera and Star Office preloaded.
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Dell & IBM Both Shipping Linux More

Dell & IBM Both Shipping Linux

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  • Re:"So someone installed Linux onto what used to be a Windows box, and the first thing the managers noticed was the uptime?"

    Ummm no actually the first thing management (read PHB) noticed was the "puuurty new colors" and those "kick ass screen savers" and those "kewl see through windows" and then they noticed how rock solid an operating system can be without micros~1 products on the computer.
    ___

  • MS on good behaviour now (Score:3)

    by Frymaster ( 171343 ) on Tuesday June 20, 2000 @01:15PM (#987967) Homepage Journal
    A sign of the times... now with MS on its best behaviour, not wanting to screw up their appeal and with a PR problem slightly smaller than Zaire's, we'll probably see a tonne of OEM's start doing this...

    BTW, if you really want *BSD, BeOS or Minix (There's gotta be one Minix fan out there) shipping...call your favourite OEM. Dell, Compaq... they don't hire psychics you know. If they perceive sales, they'll ship 'em... eventually.

    On a vaguely-related note, my theory as to why OEM's haven't shipped a lot of pre-installed "alternative" OS's is that the Linux/*BSD/Minix crowd has a strong do-it-yerself rep. Why would OEM x ship Red Hat on their box when the customer is:
    a) Probably not going to be swayed by the convenience factor, since convenience and ease-of-use ranks 47th or lower on a *nix user's priority list (or so the perception goes)
    b) There are so many *nix brands out there that, chances are, they're not going to get a plurality of the users to make it worthwhile. Sure, they could ship RH, but 70% of the *nix users are geeks who would probably just uninstall it anyway so they could load the latest snap of Suse 42b4a2 that they compiled on the Beowulf cluster of palm pilots they've got in their garage. At least that's the perception from the OEM's point of view.

    Last point... and really offtopic. I saw an ad last week for Compaq that said "24x7 Nonstop"... are they trying to tell me their computer will only run for one fucking week?? Sheesh!

  • Argh! Now that someone noticed it, I can as well make it official...
    Resistance is futile. Slashdot will be assimilated.
    Oops, no, we're not Microsoft, forget that.
  • Not true! If you go here [dell.com] you can see that they offer every single one of their Precision workstations (very nice pieces of kit BTW) with RedHat 6.1 optionally pre-loaded.

    If you go here [dell.com] they even offer a special Precision 420 "made" for Red Hat!

  • Thanx for the info. Still, it only seems to be for the UK. For Switzerland, France, etc. they don't put Linux anywhere. AND YOU STILL HAVE TO PAY FOR A WINDOWS (98, NT, 2000) LICENSE!! If you scroll down, where there's the OS choice, it's all windoze...

  • Woops, didn't check enough. Indeed, UK customers *can* buy a RH preloaded workstation *without* paying the MS tax. But it's on ly in the UK, unfortunately...

  • Dell seems to be only offering Linux in the USA, not in Europe. You can check http://euro.dell.com and they *never* propose Linux, even for high end servers (only winblows and Netware).

    Anyway, when you see the kind of monopoly M$ has over Europe, it isn't surprising. If you guys think M$ is a bully in the USA, come and have a look at it here... A friend of mine has a computer store and is an official MS reseller. One day, some MS marketing guy came over to look at how they were presenting their crap and noticed some Linux distros among the various software. The reaction was immediate: "If you want to keep being one of our official reseller, those penguin boxes have to disappear, etc...".

    Now, no major PC manufacturer dares selling anything else than MS in Europe by fear of retaliation. Good thing I build all my PCs!

  • Last point... and really offtopic. I saw an ad last week for Compaq that said "24x7 Nonstop"... are they trying to tell me their computer will only run for one fucking week?? Sheesh!

    IIRC, the old Digital slogan (before they were bought by Compaq) was "365x24".

    One day of downtime every 4 years? :)

  • We just got a Dual Xeon Dell poweredge 6400 for statistical number crunching. I giggled as I found the contents of the box to contain an offical copy with documentation of RedHat 6.2. Which had been preinstalled by dell as well.

  • In fact, more accurately, it appears that Windows in its various guises is actually an option on these, and Linux the default! Even on the non-promotional boxes.

    I'm not sure what Dell is trying to achieve by this, since I'm sure that the majority of Dell's customers will want something more mainstream like Win2K on their workstations at this moment in time. Maybe they're just trying to make the prices look lower? :-)

  • I had a similar experience. I configured an Inspiron 7500 Notebook 700 MHz PIII, 128 MB RAM. The Linux system had a total cost of $286 more than the same hardware with Win 98 and Office 2000 installed. Plus, you can't get the SXGA+ screen on the Linux preinstalls.

    Apparently the "MS Tax" is more of an "MS Tax Credit".

  • I agree with your goal, but your analogy stinks.

    Most of those bikes cost thousands of dollars and the market as a whole for those bikes is .001% of the bicycle market.

    The mass-retail market demands a pre-installed, plug-it-in-and-start-downloading-nudies OS and that's what they'll ship, just like the mass-retail market for bikes demands a pedals and a seat and isn't likely to start offering seat-and-pedals free bikes anytime soon.

  • The problem is that Dell/IBM/? have a huge mindshare advantage. They just see a new market, and step in. Big companies and Joe Consumer buy from an established company they know already instead of the ones that supported the development of the market in the first place.

    I don't know if anything can really be done, I like capitalism and all, but it seems kind of unfair at times.

    It could be worse. Under communism, we'd have the governement developing OSes, like in China. (No kidding. The PRC really is working on something, the H? OS.)

  • I think he meant that the machine, not the software, was frozen. As in the component configuration - they only make one box with Linux on it, and you don't get to choose your options.

    ---
  • I can't believe they decided to bundle their computers with shit.

    Well, maybe one day they'll stop loading Microsoft products on all their machines. One can only hope.

    What would you rather they bundled on them?

  • Another question is that will DELL/RH/IBM support it and is the cost of support factored into the preloaded box?

    Finally, here's a multiple choice question :

    Q: Why is IBM/DELL shipping boxes with Linux instead of Windoze?

    (a) They want to piss off Bill Gates (nah nah nah nah, your's monopoly's gone!)
    (b) They listen to consumer demands
    (c) They play the "cool" card and hope to ride the linux-association stock craze
    (d) A Dell middle manager noticed that an unofficial desktop running linux was more stable (sic)
  • They have been installing on Servers. This is the first time they will be installing on Desktops and Laptops
  • Yeah, now two of my three lots of Red Hat are way above purchase price.

    Can't see how this will help Corel with cash flow that quick - they only have a few days left before the Canadian government padlocks the doors.

    Good thing it's Open Source, you can always get tech support and recompile it yourself, eh?

  • I know you're trolling, but I just can't help it...

    I can think of one thing that a MS OS can do better (at the moment) than a Linux-based OS, and that's play games. I doubt that Toyota is worried about the quality of Quake III on their proxy server, but they ARE probably thinking strongly about the stability and speed of the server, and Linux wins, hands down.
    ---------
    "There's no swimming in the heavy water, no playing in the acid rain.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Redhat is less of a hardcore/server distribution than, say, slackware, because, as you say, it tries for both the desktop and the server market.

    You are certainly wrong about general users wanting or needing PCs in the future. Did you even read the article [osopinion.com]? The first issue that is brought up is 'the metaphor crisis.' Because PCs must support many different applications and varieties of hardware, they are hard(er) to use, because the mouse/keyboard metaphor is not optimal for many applications. Let's say, for example, that a door, a lamp, and a TV were controlled by a generic PC interface - a mouse and keyboard. It would be horribly backwards, because the interface is not optimized and adjusted for the application. A door has a handle, because it is the most logical interface. A lamp has a switch, because it is the most logical interface. A TV has a remote control - because it is the most logical interface. What happens is that the PC is divided into many appliances, each with its interface AND hardware optimized for its application. Things finally become easier to use - what the user wants. Keep in mind that the general user is the guy who bought an iMac to check 'that internet' out, not the linux junkie worried about where his shell prompt will go.

    The corporations will not largely affect information flow, either. Mass media corporations like aol/time warner can certainly do their share, but the Web will still flourish as it does today. Most information will be free, but, sadly, some things will be littered with ads. But, then again, the same happens today.

  • WRONG! (Score:1)

    by Lumpy ( 12016 )
    penguin computing was NOT here first. in fact they cant even come up with their own logo so they use TUX as their logo (I see this is VERY WRONG) Anyone with a screwdriver and a linux distro can sell linux pre-installed, so what they do is not revolutionary, or special in any way.

    VA on the other hand.... they make 100% sure that the hardware is 100% linux compatable, and they work the bugs out of the new hardware before shipping. yes they just slap together a pc and slap linux on it, but the task of choosing hardware that doesnt suck is a big one.
    (although, having sound and video on the Mo-Bo is a dumb-ass move... but if you have to sell dirt-cheap pc's that's the way to go.)
  • I cannot remember any instances where the brand of computer was mentioned in a bust. "Now for the breaking news...A Dell Dimension was used to bring down the New York Stock Exchange, while in other news Backard Smell sales decreased do to small hacker sales."
  • My experience with Dell [www.dell.] and RedHat [redhat.com] Linux was rather distrubing. We purchased a Dell PowerEdge 2400 (with the PERC2/si Raid Card) [dell.com] when recieved the machine it was not preloaded. In fact the raid driver was not finished. They finaly got us the driver after three weeks when to out suprise the driver was compiled for a specific version of the kernel (Dell's Special Tweaked version) which had a PPP problem (which we needed). I guess my point is RedHat and Dell get all sort of publicity for being open sourced, but yet we could not get the source code to compile the driver ourselves. Yet company like Caldera [calderasystems.com], IBM [ibm.com], and Mandrake [linux-mandrake.com] get some publicity but it is almost an after thought. This is just my opinion. Peace Out.
  • Maybe me fortifying netscape improved things, but I do get lockups occasionally, but always for three reasons: failed DNS lookups (recovers), slow to render pages (gets there eventually), and flash blocking on the sound device (stopping xmms lets it continue).

    Though I believe everyone that says netscape locks up/crashes on them, I'm always puzzled because it doesn't happen to me.

  • On some workstations, yes. Not surprising... didn't they buy out DEC awhile back? On a somewhat related note, what the heck ever happened to Digital Unix?
  • I think that Micro$oft's pronouncements had more to do with the recent speed of Linux's rise than Jackson's pronouncements did. One big thing that Linux got out of the court case was that Microsoft thought that it was to their advantage to tout Linux as a 'real contender'. For the PHB types this was something of a green flag.
    If Miserosoft
    themselves is touting this as a realistic -- even technically superior -- alternative to Windows, perhaps I should stop swatting at my techies everytime they tell me that Linux would solve this problem.
    Chivalry does not mean refusing to take advantage of your opponents' blunders.
    --
  • Interesting how RedHat knows how to do business and aquire business partners. That's why to many RH=Linux :)
  • .
    Having just aquired (yesterday) a Sony Glasstron, I am now looking for a laptop that support S-Video or has an RCA video jack, plus a built in DVD drive.

    Ok, this fits the bill, BUT -- do all of these *work* under Linux? Especially the DVD drive, which I would want to use as a DVD and VCD player.

    --
    Evan

  • Yes, it would have been nice to get it with Debian but I just ordered a Dell Dimension with Red Hat and was for the first time able to buy a computer with no revenue for MS. The configurations are pretty locked as it only came with 128MB of RAM I had to put 2 additional 128MB DIMMs on the order and will have to install them myself. But how difficult is that??? I called Gateway and they would not sell me a box with Linux and with Compaq you have to special order a server with Linux. Compaq does not have any standard desktops configured with Linux. So for the big players so far it's only Dell and IBM that are 'really' supporting linux!!

    notoriousgdd@netscape.net
  • can I get one of those cool fall-apart stickers? :)..

  • Makes sense to me... (Score:3)

    by PopeAlien ( 164869 ) on Tuesday June 20, 2000 @01:00PM (#987997) Homepage Journal
    The last thing you want as an auto dealer is a 'crash'..
  • We're talking the purchasing types and the straight out of business school (25 years ago) CFOs who think that if they're not buying from a big company, "what will we do when the system crashes??? What happens if this company goes out of business???"
    Everybody knows that computers crash all the time. I mean, just look at my desktop Windows box. It crashes twice a week, and I hardly do ANYTHING on it. -- and we buy that from DELL. Now you want me to buy our servers from some no-name animal-cracker company that figures that they can do better than Dell with an operating system that people give away?

    Get real!.

    For some people, blue screens are better than red ink -- even if the red ink is fictional.
    --
  • Finally, major companies have started to respect the open source revolution! However, I have a feeling that all the big names are doing it for company PR and stuff: "Well, the Dell corporation is interested in only the best for our clients, and we believe that offering linux solutions is reaching that goal." I wish they would start shipping with *BSD and beOS, but I doubt that's going to happen in the next few years....
  • You have to be joking if you think Linux is a good desktop OS for the average home user. KDE is a hack of the Start Menu, and a bitch to memory. Where's Photoshop, Illustrator, pinball games, and all my other apps? GIMP is utterly disgusting when compared to Photoshop. In fact, the GUI itself is pretty clunky (enlightement, KDE, GNOME, fvwm hah). I'm not saying Windows or Mac is the best that can be done, but Linux sucks as a desktop OS for average users. My mom couldn't even figure out how to check her email, and that's all she does. Pathetic.

    I do think it will get better, but right now it's just a hack of a desktop. I'll stick to windows for design work and Linux for development/networking.

  • yup. I think this is a coincidence. I think it has more to do with the progress that has been made with Linux in terms of friendly install, improved driver support, lots of good software. You now have distro's that will install very easily on most any machine, and a good gui that the average user can grasp and run without any real knowledge of a CLI..
  • Why is there no difference in price [ibm.com]?
  • wandered into two national computer stores last week and was amazed at the huge selection of Linux distros. Not just that, but they were placed in top-billing racks. And suddenly all these corps are shipping units with Linux.

    Even the game store at Pacific Place in Seattle had something like six distros. And some major games. So, it's even catching on in gaming, where, sadly, it's still got some catch up work to do as an OS.

    I think this whole court case has definitely provided a window of opportunity, both by distracting MSFT and by making them behave like a bully a bit less. But now that it's in Supreme Court limbo land, we may see the gloves come off.

    Never underestimate the sneakiness of MSFT.

    [note: I own MSFT shares]

  • I have a ways to go to break even on my last batch of RHAT. In the black overall on them though.

    What's up with CORL? Bankruptcy?

    ---
  • I work for Dell.. I can't believe they decided to bundle their computers with shit.

    Hmm. The last time I bought a Dell, it was bundled with styrofoam. Perhaps the engineers at Dell have discovered that fecal matter provides better shock absorbtion?

    Novel concept, anyway.
  • I've got a dual boot system, Debian 2.2 and Winblows 98 (only so I can play DVD's and games that haven't been ported yet, and 'cause it's work's laptop and the boss insisted that Winblows be installed on it.) Debian runs quite well on the system, but I had a ethernet card problem, so I called Dell Tech Support to try to get a replacement. After shipping it back three times, 2 motherboard swaps and a new keyboard later they finally swapped the ethernet card. They about blew a gasket when they found out that I had the system dual booting. Dell's tech support claimed my problems are due to dual booting. RIGHT!

    I then had to lie to them and say that I only had windows installed on it to get them to help me. And working with their Tech Support is like pulling teeth. They have a script that they run through and will not under any circumstances deviate from the script.

    So as far as buying a system pre-loaded with Linux on it, I'll get it from VA or Penguin rather than the likes of Compaq, Dell or Gateway. They're still in bed with Billy-Boy, and won't help if you have a hardware problem if you're not running win-something-or-another.
  • Dell only seems to provide their drivers in binary form.

    This Adaptec's fault. They won't open-source the driver.
  • True, RedHat is making money, but for a business in RedHat's position, $16mil is a pitance. And a 2.5mil loss is still way to much for a company as established (and old! RedHat is not a startup) as Redhat. I think Be is a bad long term investment too. They still aren't making a profit, but at least they have some new prospects on the horizon. Until RedHat can take advantage of its position as the dominant Linux company.
  • Where is this price difference

    From the look of this page here [dell.com] there can be quite a significant price difference. I'm not qualified to comment on whether "PE4400 - Highly Scalable Departmental Server" for $11,515 (forth box down) is a better solution that "PowerEdge[tm] 4400 with Red Hat Linux" for $7144, but if I was buying a departmental server it would be my job to find out before I paid all that extra money for the Microsoft solution. As far as I can tell the hardware is equivalent. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


    Cheers,


    Chris Morgan

  • I've been configuring systems on Dell's Web site, and trying to get roughly comparable systems with Linux and Windows installed. Can someone explain to me why the Linux version costs $100 more than the Windows version, even if you include Office 2k Pro?

    --

  • Do you think Dell would have had the balls to ship a Linux box if not for the DOJ investigation? OEMs couldn't even preinstall a browser on their Windows boxes without MSFT's say so. Intel quashed a lot of their software plans because of MSFT. Everyone was under their thumb. From the looks of things that were discovered at the trial [gpo.gov] MSFT basically was dictating what a majority of the computer industry did.

    If anyone believes that Dell would risked angering MSFT by selling Linux, a rereading of the Findings of the Fact is in order. MSFT played the OEMs with its Windows pricing scheme and does that played ball (Compaq, Gateway) were charged substantially less than others. IBM on the other hand would have pursued Linux regardless but I'm not so sure about Dell. Here's a Google cache of Bill G commenting on Dell [google.com] from the MSFT trial days.

    PS: I once interviewed with Dell and asked the why they didn't have a comprehensive Linux plan and the response was "We're waiting to see how things go before committing resources. Once someone shows it's a viable plan, we'll jump on it."

  • Yes indeed. Check this out: http://www.perl.com/pub/language/ misc/ms-ascii.html [perl.com]

    --

  • How do you know what I think? In fact, what I think is: they think they're going to get money from me, but they certainly aren't if they can't do better than that. They certainly aren't "righteous", dood or otherwise.

    --

  • That sounds more like an arguement for my analagy than against it. My point is that the "upper" or "power" segment of the market is small, but that the manufacturers should support our needs as well.
  • Yeah, but you could still crack the case, right?

    How many Linux users are going to worry about the warranty anyway?

  • These are desktop systems not just servers so they can't claim limited application as the reason for limiting hardware options and as you pointed out it certainly seems odd that they limit options like memory and mouse selection. You might have expected this to happen if they had loaded Linux on the cheap models and just made the package a price leader. Interestingly they went with the less expensive OS Linux and loaded it on their more robust and reliable machines (Albeit with few options) weird...
  • My guess is Dell got guaranteed supplies in exchange for agreeing not to open up to AMD

    To lock up for AMD is the more appropriate term. Replace the processor and your Dell won't boot anymore. If you want to upgrade your Dell to an AMD processor, you have to scrounge the netnews to find out which Intel motherboard is in there, use the Intel BIOS recovery disk to reflash the motherboard with Intel firmware, and then replace the CPU.

    It always struck me as weird that the Intel BIOS takes away the restriction against AMD that Dell built in :-)

  • Apparently some of the managers were getting really sick of all the DoJ crap, so they smoked some joints and then posted this crap.
  • call your favourite OEM. Dell [...] they don't hire psychics you know.

    This is an excellent suggestion, 'cept that a dozen people I know called Dell and got a blunt reaction, without any hint that they might do something with the feedback.

    When I called them, I put the screws on them: "I don't want Windows'98". Ah, monsieur is a connaisseur! I'll tick Windows NT for you then. No, I don't want Windows. I want to install UNIX on it, and I don't want to pay for Windows. I'm sorry sir, we're not allowed to ship a Dell without an Operating System. Okay, fair enough: throw a copy of Linux in. No, I'm really sorry sir, but that is impossible. I can ship you a machine with DOS 6.2 if you want. It's.... wait a minute while I look it up... No, that's actually more expensive than shipping with '98. So, I'll include '98 with your order. Thanks, but no thanks.

    This from the company that pre-installed *ANY* OS you threw at them in their early days...

  • From a stregic perspective, Penguin and VA have always been vulnerable. They cannot compete with the big boys on production volume or price. COMPAQ has been trying to do what DELL does for years, with limited success, so the likelihood of VA or Penguin ever being able to compete head to head with DELL is nil. But for a while that didn't matter, because their edge was in Linux expertise. Even today, they still have this edge. The problem for them is that there are no "barriers to entry" to prevent DELL from being able to duplicate that edge. All it will take is closer cooperation with Red Hat, or if they want to get aggressive, the purchase and LinuxCare, and DELL could be competitive on Linux expertise.

    What Penguin and VA should do is find ways to differentiate themselves from the DELL and IBM Linux offerings. It's no longer enough just to say "our pre-install is slightly better". It needs to be a lot better, or they need to offer additional services that DELL and IBM don't offer.

    Another good strategic move would be for VA and Penguin to partner or merge with a larger-scale manufacturing company, which is the "if you can't beat em, join em" strategy. Of course, if they want to remain small players, that's fine (although it would disappoint their shareholders, in the case of VA). There are plenty of small high-end hi-fi manufacturers who make kick-ass products at great expense to serve the audiophile market and could care less if they don't compete head-to-head with SONY.

    Not to be confused with a marketroid, let's just say I'm a fan of Michael Porter, who is the leading expert in Competitive Strategy, and probably the most respected marketing professor at Harvard Business School. It pays to know your enemy ;)

    "What I cannot create, I do not understand."

  • Are you really arguing that Linux is not proceeding on it's own merits? ...or crediting it's long-arrived success to the actions of the DOJ? I honestly don't think the DOJ or Judge Jackson deserves the credit- it belongs with the people who've developed it and made it what it is, rather than to the government. Our politicians may claim credit, but don't be fooled- they were cheerleaders, while other people were running with the ball.

    I think you're underestimating Linux, or overestimating the degree of control MS has on the market, or both.

    Keep in mind that MS hasn't changed any of it's business practices- it's still convinced that it's just playing hardball, and that this is OK.

    Given this info... I'd say that this *is* a coincidence... in my opinion.
  • The entry level PowerEdge 1300 server is $1760 with RH vs. $2410 with Win2000; that's $650 cheaper, which is significant.
  • Look at what MS is doing with MPEG4 and windos media (They'll be "using the OS monopoly to extend share in other markets" when they bundle windos media into M.E. Look at what MS is trying to do to Palm. Look at what MS is doing to Kerberos. Look at what MS continues to do to Java every day. If this is their best behaviour, I think they're best isn't good enough!
    ___
  • Question. Why do they call it the One Source Alliance? Some pun off of "source code", or the fact that Dell will have one source of Linux distributions?

  • Comment removed (Score:4)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Tuesday June 20, 2000 @01:24PM (#988025)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Because they have a contract where they get paid for every unit shipped, even when it doesn't have a MSFT OS on it.

    And since the penalty removing that type of contract is suspended until the Supreme Court rules, that's not going to change any time soon.

  • Even though this is just some big names preinstalling RedHat in most cases, it'll go a damn long way toward helping the reputation of Linux in general.

    I notice particularly, that they mention shipping Web/Proxy boxes to Lexus/Toyota.
    This relates to something that I have been trying to push for in my LUG.
    I wanted us to present Linux as a viable option to K-12 schools, who in a lot of cases are beginning to think seriously about doing things properly with regard to the internet, but the cost is too much! Using a free OS can help offset that a bit!

    Only problem is, that when you tell most people about it, you mention RedHat, or other distros and various other names that they've never heard of, and you get nothing other than a blank look!
    But now you can mention Dell, or particularly Big Blue, and they'll immediately have more confidence!

    Sad, but true!


    "How much truth can advertising buy?" - iNsuRge [insurge.com.au] - AK47
  • ...should be taking.

    MS is for games. Remember back when IBM was crippling their boxes because they didn't want to be seen by corporate clients as a game machine. When corporate buyers find out their purchasers have been buying a system which only excells at games, that's when Microsoft is in trouble.

    "So that's why our productivity hasn't been going up."
  • The power segment of the market buys two kinds of computers: servers, which all major vendors will sell without an OS, or screwdriver specials either self-assembled or by a mom-n-pop shop.

    Again, what you're asking is for mainstream vendors to supply something that the mainstream market doesn't appear to want. What you want IS readily available, you're just shopping in the wrong market.

    Again, though, I agree with you: there's little reason why Dell or the others couldn't sell systems with empty HDs, other than the market hasn't been demanding it.
  • Having worked at Toyota while the proxy work was being done (and, I'm proud to say, contributing somewhat), I have to say that PR was the last thing they were thinking about. I wasn't in on the decision making process, but I believe it was purely a technology decision.

    We went with linux because a small group of people had a working prototype to show to management while the MS consultants said we'd be able to do anything we wanted if we waited four more months for Windows 2000 (with Active Directory!). Once MS said they couldn't do it, we went ahead with linux. It was not a PR decision at all.

  • ...as a favor to Microsoft. As in:

    Bill: "I'm having a bit of trouble with the government."

    Michael: "How can I help?"

    Bill: "Well, they think I have no competition. So, if you could pretend to sell Linux boxes, it'll look good for me."

    Michael: "Sure, especially if you knock another five bucks off my OEM licenses."

    Bill: "No problem."

    But, after Michael Dell's appearance on Charlie Rose last week, I'm beginning to have doubts. (Or at least I'm beginning to suspect Dell has doubts.) The following is a quote from that interview in which he talks about how businesses have to adapt their business.

    "If you had a business that was based on tricking your customer -- which, in fact, a lot of businesses were fundamentally, you know, assumed that the customer didn't have very much information and the customer was, in effect, uninformed -- well, that's going away. And you have to assume that the customer is knowledgeable and has access to resources around the world and can compare and contrast and gain access to new ideas extremely rapidly. So you have to be able to thrive on that."

    I don't know who fits the description of a company who assumes the customer is uninformed better than MS. So, maybe Michael Dell is finally having some doubts about his relationship with a company as dishonest as Microsoft.

    And hedging his bets.
  • Try configuring a Workstation 420 smp-capable system. In the config I tried (1 CPU, 256MB RAM, 10krpm 9GB SCSI), with everything being the same except OS, I get a price difference of almost $300 in Microsoft's favor.

    --

  • And I don't mean "in Microsoft's favor" in a rah-rah-linux microsoft bashing way. I mean it exactly literally.

    --

  • Many sysadmins that I know will always wipe the vendor pre-installation in favor of doing their own, just because there will always be something (partition choices, etc.) that they find to be "not quite the way they want it".

    So, my question is: has anyone bought pre-loaded linux boxes from VA or other companies? How have you found the installation? Personally, none of these would do me much good because my distro of choice is Debian (just my preference!). However, lots of people blow away the factory installations of IRIX and Solaris to re-install the same thing, so I'm wondering how prevalent this will be with pre-installed Linux.

    Also, I've seen where some vendors charge more for Linux instead of Windows...if this is the case, it seems silly to even offer the option. As another poster said, just give me the system with nothing on the hard disk at all, and let me do as I please. Of course, that would certainly make them difficult to support (I speak from experience building and reselling Windows PCs...some customers would want them without OSs, because they already owned Windows or something, but even in that case we'd still have to hook up a hard disk with an OS to test all the hardware).
  • In the days of redhat 5.2 (apollo), their distribution was praised for its great RPM technology. But ever since the 6.0 release, Redhat has been more aggressive in the market than anything else. The redhat distribution now focuses on the ease of installation and maintenance. By doing this, they are capturing the desktop (newbie?) market. Assuming that linux is the future (and it may not be: PCs are on the go. IAs are moving in [osopinion.com].), Redhat needs to take the desktop market in order to win the general server share. Here's an example of why: how did Microsoft win the early server market? Not by pushing a better server product, but by winning the desktop market (windows...). The same people who are buying Redhat for their desktops, because they know no other linux, will buy Redhat for their servers, just out of convenience (and ignorance?). Maybe by acquiring openBSD, redhat could turn things around and put out a great, secure server linux.

    I think that by making these moves they've gotten alot of news (man, look at their stock prices) and business partners (almost every big corporation "involved in the open-source revolution" ships with redhat linux, no other), but they've lost alot of support from the hardcore open source community. Now, a lot of people blacklist redhat, associating it with newbies and ignorance. But, as I said before, maybe they will push a good server linux too.
  • try here. [dell.com]
  • I suppose this news is responsible for RedHat's 20% stock price increase today. For those of you missed out on the IPO last year, now is still a good time to buy. I picked up a bunch in the teens last month and have been watching with glee as it has almost doubled.

    The thing about redhat that wall street doesn't understand is they aren't going to go away. It's a safe company as far as I'm concerned. Their stock may be wild and crazy right now but it's a good long term investment. I think that their 300/share price earlier this year was just silly but it shows were they could be in a few years.

    Damn it Jim, I'm just an engineer not a financial advisor!

  • irony (Score:2)

    by mattdm ( 1931 )
    Sad how that page is completely full of MS-HTML. ?s everwhere.

    --

  • I've bought machines from both Dell and Penguin with Linux pre-loaded. In all cases, I've wiped the HD and reinstalled. For workstation machines, I have RedHat kickstart install scripts that install only the packages I want (including some of my own packages), configures networking (NIS, DHCP, etc.), fixes config files to my company's settings (printers, NFS mountpoints).

    There are still reasons I prefer buying machines with Linux, though. I know the hardware will be supported (soundcards in particular). I give the included printed Linux documentation to whoever will be using the computer, and I let people borrow the included CD's if they want to install Linux on their home machines.

    Ryan
  • How is this a good long term investment? IT has a shaky, unproven business model, and has yet to turn a profit, even though it completely dominates the commercial Linux market. Think, Linux has 30-something% of the server market, and RedHat is the major commercial vendor in this space. Yet, they still haven't managed to make money off of it (aside from the stock). I seriously think that Linux is not going to make it big through the efforts of companies like RedHat, but more through people just downloading a distribution and contracting with a professional tech support company.
  • Damn. MS MADE Kerberos what it is. MPEG4 is a seriously kick ass codec. Are you telling me Sonorsen should be sued for keeping its codec (the monopoly on Quicktime por... er... videos) prorietory? And MS is not trying to do anything to Palm. They are simply trying to compete in the market with a higher end product. To tell the truth, I would rather have the power of a WinCE device than the simplicity of a Palm, because I don't have much use for a device that simply keeps shedules. In this case MS really is innovating, trying to get the whole, "PC in your hand" thing going. While it is very effective, palm is simply trying to make a better day planner.
  • BSDi [bsdi.com] offers systems [bsdi.com] with FreeBSD on them. BSDi or Linux are optional.

    This all due to the acquisition [bsdi.com] of Telenet by BSDi.
  • That's a flat out lie. They simply started getting wind of what was happening with Linux and started trying to offer it to people. As well as the demand that was starting to creep up got them to start offering over 6 months ago. It was not widely known at first and was mainly on request, but now you can get it directly off the web site.

  • What's With The Related Links? (Score:4)

    by Seumas ( 6865 ) on Tuesday June 20, 2000 @01:53PM (#988069)
    This is slightly off topic, but the Related Links box on this article at the top of this Slashdot page looks like this:

    • Linux
    • Red Hat
    • Red Hat
    • Red Hat
    • Dell
    • strategic operating systems
    • lexus and Toyota
    • preloaded
    • More on Linux
    • Also by CmdrTaco
    I thought Debian was Rob's distribution of choice? Has he switched? Is Red Hat dumping some extra cash (or cool toys) on the Geek Compound to receive this extra notice on Slashdot? . . . Or are the three repetitions of the Red Hat link just an accident? ;)
    ---
    icq:2057699
    seumas.com
  • I run Red Hat 6.2 on a Dell Inspiron 7500 and it rocks! The sad thing is that they outsource the Linux support to a third party. Good thing I haven't need to use it.

    Specs:
    15.4" SXGA 1280x1024
    700Mhz, 256 MB, 25GB, DVD-ROM/Floppy Combo

    -ryan

    "Any way you look at it, all the information that a person accumulates in a lifetime is just a drop in the bucket."

  • Apparently some of the managers were getting really sick of the BSOD. The techs installed Linux on their machines one night, and most of them didnt even notice. During a 'stragetic meeting' someone noted that the computer systems seemed much more reliable than before. Then the techs told them about the operating system switch. After that they decided they wanted to pass the improvement onto their customers by shipping Linux!

    Abashed the Devil stood,
    And felt how awful goodness is
  • Now that these giant computer manufacturers are preloading Linux, what incentive does Joe Consumer have to buy from a company like Penguin? Those companies found a niche and started selling products. They were here first! Are they just going to get shoved aside or remain small? Or do you think that they still have a chance to become major manufacturers while the older companies are still getting their acts together?
  • Hey, what is wrong with BSD. I recently erased my Linux partition (yes I know I'm an OS slut) and replaced it with a FreeBSD partition. I installed via FTP, and in general, FBSD seems much less chaotic to me. It's the first UNIX I'm actually thinking of keeping around. The point is, that Dell users would probably be better served by BSD. There are more experianced sysadmins familiar with BSD, and more high-profile sites run BSD. Also, it seems to be much easier to manage and update for the thread-bare sysadmin.
  • Out of curiosity, are any retailers offering to ship systems preloaded with *BSD, or even making noise about doing so down the road?

    The ultimate goal, recall, is to have systems shipped with your choice of operating system - not just with any given one.
  • Speaking of Linux distros, I was recently reading the Microcenter ad (a big chain store) and noticed many Linux distros. Favorites like RedHat, Corel, Debian, TurboLinux, FreeBSD... yes, FreeBSD was listed as a Linux distro.
    Oh the humanity.
  • Having a judge bail you out is not exactly something to be proud of. In fact, the Linux community should be ashamed if MS loses this case, because they'll never know if they won on basis of superior product tactics, or they just had Bill's head handed to them on a silver platter. I strongly believe that current laws don't work too well for computer companies due to the nature of the product. There is nothing about a cable line that prevents competitors from using it, but almost everything makes OSs incompatible with each other. Almost by definition, widespread computing needs a monopoly-class OS.
  • Heh. Check out this guy's posting history [slashdot.org].

    I can't believe he got this far with only a few negative moderations.

  • Not news... or... "It's the laptops stupid!" (Score:3)

    by SlushDot ( 182874 ) on Tuesday June 20, 2000 @02:06PM (#988095)
    When I see the vendors sporting Linux pre-installed on LAPTOPS will support for the BUILT-IN MODEM AND BUILT-IN ETHERNET, then I will believe that a vandor is really serious about Linux. Til then, there's no medals for tossing a different CD in the box or even pre-installed Linux on a PC (which takes minutes for anyone to do).

    Laptops!

    Laptops!

    Laptops!

    I want to see laptops with Linux and in the sub $2000 category too, with DVD roms, 100 base T, v.90 modems, just like MS bribes the laptop makers into doing.

  • That is the capitalist model. I love the Penquins, et al but if they can't make a better mouse trap than Dell/IBM/?, they are gone, and if its a fair market, I won't be sorry. If you buy from someone thats more expensive, but has only an equal product, you are giving to charity, which you can do, but the rest of the world won't.
  • Try disabling javascript as well. That's what I do and netscape almost never crashes. I have it going for days at a time, shutting it down periodicly because of the memory leeks.

    Mind you, I don't stray terribly far fram slashdot. slashdot, freshmeat, lwn, linux.org.uk and sourceforge are my main net abodes, though I do visit many of the sites linked of slashdot and I will occasionally go on wild goose chases via google (mind you, google tends to tame them a little:). But netscape crash on me? Very rare. And this is with fortified rh6.1 netscape + flash.

  • We also just bought about $70,000 of servers from Dell. We bought a bunch of their 2450 servers and four of their PowerApp 100 machines.

    All are well made and came perfectly preconfigured with Red Hat 6.2 and work just fine.

    One annoyance, however, is that the 2450 servers have an intergrated Ultra3 RAID controller OEM'd from Adaptec. They don't supply source for the drivers and the precompiled modules only work with specific kernel versions. I emailed their support about this and was informed by their tech that they only support the hardware and I should "talk to Linux" about my kernel version upgrade problems. They have a few support problems to work out I suspect.

  • The problem is... (Score:4)

    by NetJunkie ( 56134 ) <`jason.nash' `at' `gmail.com'> on Tuesday June 20, 2000 @01:06PM (#988100)
    My problem with Dell and their pre-loading of Linux is that the selected models they have with it are config locked. You usually can't even add memory to the system. You take it as they spec'd it out or you don't get linux on it. But at least they ship it. We just switched to Gateway at work and I had to order my Athlon with 98 and Office. There was no choice for linux so I had to pay the MS tax.
  • I've been looking around Dell's web site, and I still can't find systems with Linux as an operating system choice. Am I missing something?

    --

  • I wandered into two national computer stores last week and was amazed at the huge selection of Linux distros. Not just that, but they were placed in top-billing racks. And suddenly all these corps are shipping units with Linux.

    Hmm. Do you think this would have happened before Judge Jackson? Do you think the consumer was hurt by M$? The difficulty is quantifying the damages because the harm was the with holding of choice.

  • .. I've built kiosks around Win95 and got what I deserved- Daily calls from the client- "The screen is all blue.."

    Maybe you should try a different line of work then... because it would appear that you don't know quite what you're doing.

    SImon
  • Well, maybe one day they'll stop loading Microsoft products on all their machines. One can only hope.

    What would you rather they bundled on them?

    Whatever I choose. Which for now, as Linux still doesn't hack it for your average Joe, is Windows.

    Not that I'm your average joe, but after spending 4 hours a few weeks back installing an ne2000 compatible network card and getting it to work on Mandrake 7, I don't have the time to screw about with Linux. Not to mention the fact that to get Mandrake to install, I had to futz with the BIOS before and after installation to get it to work (didn't like LBA mode... pshaww).

    Simon
  • I don't agree. I believe the DOJ vs MS case made wonders for Linux being adopted by IBM, Compaq, Dell. Expecially Dell.

  • I find this story dubious at best.

    If you claim it was a desktop machine, you are clearly as great an idiot as the other posters think you are.

    If it was a fileserver, well it is not unlikely that some techs somewhere at Dell did something like this, but I strongly doubt that had much to do with the above announcement.

    Regards,
    Ben
  • At the end of today's trading:

    RHAT +18.97%

    CORL +13.56%

    LNUX +12.35%

    ok, here's a bunch of non-caps text to get around the anti-caps lameness filter. Which I didn't even know existed...

    ---
  • Now that these giant computer manufacturers are preloading Linux, what incentive does Joe Consumer have to buy from a company like Penguin? Those companies found a niche and started selling products. They were here first! Are they just going to get shoved aside or remain small? Or do you think that they still have a chance to become major manufacturers while the older companies are still getting their acts together?

    They might, but it would be an uphill battle. The older companies have name recognition and past contracts which only need to be renewed, which count for a lot.

    The main selling point of, say, Penguin is that Penguin presumably has more experience building and configuring Linux systems, and so (hopefully) does a better job at it.

    In order to become a major player, a company like Penguin would have to:
    • Build an ad campaign around their expertise.
    • Spend lots and lots of money pushing this ad campaign like crazy across television and computer magazines to get comsumer awareness up.
    • Spend lots of money pushing this ad campaign in trade magazines where retailers, OEMs, and businesses' purchasing managers will see it.
    • Spend lots and lots of effort approaching small- to medium-sized retailers offering prebuilt Linux systems with the Penguin logo, to gain sales volume and credibility.


    This can be done, and has a chance of working, but takes a lot of effort and a very large amount of money. There would also be the risk of failing spectacularly, as there are a glut of suppliers on the market.

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