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Linux Business

Linuxcare Responds To Tim O'Reilly's Article 82

Posted by timothy from the consider-source-horse's-mouth-grain-of-salt dept.
Dave Sifry writes: "I wanted to let you guys know that my response to Tim O'Reilly's recent column about Linuxcare. Things really aren't as bad as some in the press have made it appear. I feel it is important to get a dose of facts into the conversation -- now that we're out of our quiet period and we can talk about what's going on, and all of the neat stuff we've been working on." After all that's been said about LinuxCare, it's good to hear info straight from the top, and that Tim O'Reilly is an active listener. Just remember who's speaking.
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Linuxcare Responds To Tim O'Reilly's Article More

Linuxcare Responds To Tim O'Reilly's Article

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  • Mathematica, which is considerably better than Maple, is available for Linux (and many other platforms).

    "When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood."

  • kinda funny...slashdotters have argued in the past that linux shouldn't be compare to win95 because it isn't a client, and that it is better than win95 as a client

    The two arguments aren't mutually exclusive... it may not really a client, but it's still better than win9x. (G)

  • Yes, what you say is all very well but surely the origin of this discussion is exactly the provision, or otherwise of services. Linuxcare does provide such a service but as Robert Heinlein wrote "There aint no such thing as a free lunch". If the suits or whoever don't want to move to Linux it's more likely that they haven't heard of it. I know because I work at a finanacial services company (as a not so moronic sys admin, I hope!) and most of the WAN is run through NT4 boxes and anyone with a bit of knowledge would have surely figured out that there are more reliable OS's out there. Who in their right mind would trust anything of importance to M$?
    I put it down to ignorance more than anything else. What we need is a bit of advocacy for Linux, and I don't think Slashdot counts, you're preaching to the converted here.
    No, a higher profile for both the OS and support organisations is what may change the bean counters' minds and get a decent level of reliability onto more servers and workstations.

  • Text is fine, but there are times when you need the formatting. My lab reports needed underlines, plus the occasional bold or italic, in order to follow our standard formats. My term paper had to have centered text, as well as bold and underlines, to be in the required format. I won't even get started on superscripts, subscripts, footnotes, and endnotes. BTW, I don't think any mathematical or scientific paper would be easy (or professional-looking) in text. There's just too much formatting that has to be done.

    I'm not sure all of the conversion programs will function as desired. Have you ever tried to convert a program between different Word versions? How 'bout importing a WordPerfect document into Word? How 'bout exporting an RTF file from Word?

    There are so many incompatibility issues that would have to be addressed, that I'm not sure it would be worth it. The initial investment in licensing would be saved, but how much time would be lost in trying to sort out incompatibilities between products?

  • Does anyone remember when we all started using linux cause it was cool??
    I switched because it was open and (relatively, at that time) stable, but yeah.

    Now linux is getting into a framework where everyone talks about the "business model" and the "value added" components, and the blah and the blah and the blah.
    Linux is becoming corporatized. It's now the 'next new fad' of the computer industry. Now that everybody has a webpage, and everybody has a .com e-business (bleck.. remember when the web was about resource sharing and transmitting information? Back in the post-ARPAnet but pre-SuperInformationCyberHighway days?), so the latest fad is running a Linux server. Not Linux because it's more stable and reliable than Windoze (although that began the fad), not Linux because it's secure and has strong multiuser support and uptime, not even Linux because it's a 1337 operating system, but Linux because it's the latest thing. These fads tend to rip through a new technology, spread crappy implementations of it everywhere, and then leave it rotting, the old userbase disgusted and the new users left in the dust with a horrid half-implemented Linux system that fails half the time and doesn't even boot the other half. (Linux, in some respects, is better than that, but this new system they have isn't the same kind of quality as there was before the fad.)

    I'm fucking switching to BSD
    The one great thing is that once the fad sweeps through Open Source, it won't come back for a while. BSD will remain unharmed, while at the same time getting the B1 security certification that its been working on all the while. If this fad rips Linux apart and truely mutilates it, we can expect that the older Open Source advocates will switch to BSD. It's not that terribly different from Linux.

    going to happen sooner than we think.
    Self-Actualizing Prophecy alert! If the strong Linux userbase leaves because Linux is becoming corporatized, then even more of Linux will become corporatized. If the strong userbase remains, and they hand out copies of the GPL to the new sysadmins, and Slashdot remains an open forum for talk about things like this, then Linux will never truely become completely corporatized. Sure, businesses will make closed-source apps. But, if the strong userbase remains, we can make open-source ones to compete with the closed-source ones, just like Linux competes with Microsoft. The incredible Linux userbase, in my opinion, is capable of doing everything that the closed-source companies can do, and more.

    which have a frighteningly strong chance of holding up against at relatively weak GPL
    That is the one weakness of the entire Open Source movement. If, say, Microsoft found a loophole in the GPL, we're all dead. But hopefully that won't happen. I believe that, with the governments pro-competition idiology that the GPL will hold up in court, being the incredible volume of software that would be vulnerable if it was thrown out.

    switch to the next "linux"
    In my opinion, if Linux were ever to die (I hope not), then BSD would be the next 'Linux'. It's open source, without being part of the Open Source 'fad'. It has a higher security certification than Linux (Last time I checked), and is certainly a viable alternative. But I hope that Linux doesn't die.

    (hint, it's founder's name starts with B, and ends in "ill Gates")
    Bill Gates made an operating system? MS-DOS was bought by Microsoft (originally QDOS, Quick and Dirty Operating System, now Microsoft's Dirty Operating System), Windows was blatently ripped off of Xerox, with bits of the MacOS, NT was from VMS and Windows, and Win2k was from NT and 98 (which is actually 95 + Active Desktop and bug fixes, and 95 is actually a graphical shell for 3.11 with some 32-bit support). Microsoft never 'founded' an operating system. Although Bill did write one of the early BASICs. Blame him for that.

    I'm not saying that I'm abandoning linux.
    Good.

    absolute freedom of linux.
    Well, I switched because it was reliable and open, but free (beer) doesn't make it any worse. Although I think that Linux will still be around, although its userbase might not be as elite, and might use propriety software, there will always be those of us who use only open source code. Long Live Linux.

  • a different view... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Not everyone uses Linux to escape Windows. I use it because I love UNIX. That's the same reason I use FreeBSD, NetBSD, and Solaris. Sure, I've used Windows, and I don't like it, and I prefer to use Unix. But the reason I prefer Unix isn't because of Windows. It's because of Unix.

    FreeBSD used to be my workstation OS. Now it's Linux. Why? It's more workstation-friendly (like: user-mount option in fstab, more device drivers). It has a better selection of Java development tools (like: JDK1.2 from Sun, and JDK1.3 from IBM). And the fact that non-development products are starting to support it doesn't hurt. (StarOffice from Sun, UT from Epic, Q3A from id)

    I'll admit that I prefer the expert-friendly feel of BSD and some of the "pure" Linux distros, like Slackware, to the commercial slickness of Solaris. But even commercial Unix is better than Microsoft.

    Red Hat seems to be trying to make Linux as much like Windows as possible, but even their product is still better than Windows.

    I believe that as long as the POSIX compliance is adhered to, and as long as Torvalds still owns the kernel, that we'll never see the scenario you discribe. BUT... the minute that a company chooses to ignore POSIX in the name of "innovation", or Torvalds sells rights to the kernel... well, that's when I reinstall BSD on my Linux servers.

    Linux has become very commercial and trendy lately, and I don't like that, but there's noy much I can do, besides support the distros I do like. As long as teams like Slack and Debian continue to make the no-nonsense, fuck the GUI, console-friendly, drunk with power distributions they have to date, I'll stay a Linux user. Because for me, it's all about the Unix.

  • And unless Word2k is extremely perverted, it will save the document in the same format it was read in.

    It's really perverted. But Word 97 did it as well. Just open an .rtf, and then save it - without making any changes. Poof! It is now 5 times bigger, and can't be read by WordPad.

    Here's an example: test.rtf - "Hello, World!" in 10-point Arial font.

    • Before: 133 bytes.
    • After: 2,699 bytes.
    Same story: test.html - "Hello, World!", no font specified.
    • Before: 165 bytes. No parsing errors.
    • After: 2,054 bytes. 4 parsing errors.

    --

  • you are saying that linux will go the way of windows

    it will not

    the scenario which you describe yourself is not the one of windows but the one of unix.
    so in the worst case linux will have the same fate as unix, a fate which i don't mint so much.
    any unix today is better than windows, and if i get offered a job where i can work with unix, i'd take it, because i don't care which unix it is, as long as it is unix at all. (of course i'd prefer something free like linux or open/net/freebsd, but that's another issue)

    so even if linux does not succeed in unifying todays unices, a free linux will always remain

    greetings, eMBee.
    --

  • *Sigh* I never said that Linux was created before the GNU project. I just said that the GNU software was added to Linux later, which is true. Additionally, just because Linus used standards, that doesn't mean he didn't write the implementation himself, and then continued with the help of others. Torvalds isn't a god, but he didn't just find Linux in a cereal box either.

    STALLMAN is who you should worship. He has laser-vision and fire-breath and magic powers. Don't fuck with him!

    This, however, is true :)

    j/k

  • The problem I see with the way LinuxCare tried to grow, massively, is that a critical factor in a "service" business is that of establishing working relationships.

    Thus, getting the level of sales to increase by $100M/year requires convincing a goodly number of people that a working relationship is worth more than $100M/year.

    The problem is that it's difficult to so quickly establish relationships of trust.

  • Bill Gates made an operating system? MS-DOS was bought by Microsoft

    lol - had i bet $200 that i'd get called on the Bill statement. I'd have $400 in my pocket right now. I'm WELL aware that Gates didn't write DOS. But he's responsible for where M$ is today. Without Gates, there is no windows...that was more of the point i was elucidating to. Especially since i can't remember the name of the guy that coded DOS.


    FluX
    After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
  • > Here's an example: test.rtf - "Hello, World!" in 10-point Arial font.
    • Before: 133 bytes.
    • After: 2,699 bytes.


    Hmmm. They must be saving the pixels rather than the structure of the document.

    Nah, that's 200 bytes per character in the document. They must be saving the legal notices as well.

    --
  • People think every file can be read by everything.

    You know? They are right. This is how it *should* be.

    Maybe we could get closer to this model, if you sometime choose not to follow the line of least resistence ( let's say one time out of ten, with the smartest of your students ) and try to teach them the drawbacks of using proprietary standards.

    Which possibly you do already.

    I know, I'm a dreamer.

  • You can go to any support company you want and have them do the work you need. You needn't be stuck paying outrageous support fees if there are multiple vendors with equal access to the OS. They will have to compete for your business. Beats the hell out of having to pay $150 for a 10 minute call (after they've had you on hold for half an hour) only to be told that the problem you're having is still an "outstanding issue."

  • Bill shared his ideas with Time magazine. Doubt that many knowledgeable people were able to read through those without either falling out of their chair laughing, or nodding off several times.

  • It's indeed a Good Thing to see such an honest and open response.

    Quite often, you see retractions and responses being made in either a snide ("I'm sorry I wrote that, but you still suck.") or a fawning manner ("Thanks for pointing out thatyou own my ass, can I kiss it and make it better?").

    -W-

  • Comment removed (Score:4)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Sunday May 14, 2000 @07:44PM (#1073309)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Maple (which I think is considerably better than Mathematica) is also available for Linux.
  • Linux is not a known word at my school. I think one of the big reasons is, it's free.

    ...
    So why don't they do Linux when it's free? Star Office, when it's free?

    I think there's a bigger reason that you're missing here: The purpose of school (theoretically) is to prepare students for "the real world." An ever-increasing part of "the real world" involves knowing how to use computers and accomplish many mundane tasks using them -- The kind of tasks that normal people do every day.

    And, like it or not, the real world doesn't use Linux, and it doesn't use Star Office. The real world uses Windows 95 or 98, and Microsoft Office. Knowing how to use Linux and Star Office doesn't really help your average person know anything about the tools that they're going to be asked to use every day, when they get out into the world and work for one of the 99.9% or so of all companies that use Windows as their primary operating system. And no, an argument of "a word processor is a word processor, they're all the same" doesn't work for people in the real world!

    I admit that it would be nice if Linux ruled the world, and perhaps some day it will. Until that time, though, I think any school that uses non-Windows boxes as their primary "general user" workstations is doing a poor job of preparing students for the real world.

  • But just try holding any software vendor liable for a poor product. Even before UCITA, most licenses specifically preclude any problems with claimed performance as grounds for suing. To put it very bluntly, take M$ Winxx (where xx= 3.1, 3.11, 95, 98, NT 3, NT 3.5, NT 3.51, NT 4.0, 2000, etc) and boot up the machine. Run NO programs. If it crashes, tough shit. You can't sue M$. Can't sue anyone. The idea that someone is accountable is the biggest joke. Soon, maybe, some PHB's will finally start figuring it out.

    But, let's not forget that most PHB's have their own PHB's. And that looking at the world through a particular set of rose-colored glasses works even better the higher up the corporate food chain you go.
  • I don't care if people use Linux for business.

    That doesn't mean *I* have to do it.

    (hey, if 20 people you know run Windows, does that mean you should too? :)

    If I found another free Unix system I liked *much* better, sure, I'd switch in a heartbeat.

    I used to run DOS and Windows 3.1, because I didn't know better, and there wasn't a widely-available free Unix clone that didn't *suck*; I wasn't about to switch to Win '95, since it was so much less powerful, dumbed down, less stable, and more annoying. Windows 3.1 couldn't exploit the power of even my P133. People stopped writing as much good stuff for DOS. Hello, Linux!

    I tried installing BeOS briefly; it looked cool, but didn't support my (generic Trident TGUI9660) video card. I didn't want to read Slashdot in grayscale --> bye, bye, BeOS.

    As for the *BSD's, I haven't really tried them, but it doesn't look that different. I'd have to install the GNU tools, of course, (I know them too well--I'm addicted!) and learn about the partitioning, but it sounds remarkably similar...

    Many companies try to build a proprietary business plan with Linux at the core. It hasn't worked. The community has correctly taught Red Hat, Caldera, and Corel how it works, and all of these companies have been responsive and clueful in their co-operation. Kudos to Red Hat and Caldera, for weeding out some of that proprietary software. Thanks, Corel, for improving Wine so much! Any company that doesn't do this isn't going to be accepted by the community. They might find a niche market, but that's it.
    ---
    pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [ncsu.edu].
  • So why foster that? There are many programs that can read Word document files, and even Word can be coerced into saving as something readable by nearly everything yet retaining most of the formatting, i.e., rtf and HTML (even in M$-perverted form). Plus, having Linux as a server doesn't mean the clients can't run Word --- ever hear of Samba?
  • Somehow we've gotten the idea in our heads that computers are such great tools that they automatically translate into improved efficency without any human effort involved.

    an IT department is non-existant

    You'd like to think so, but usually there is some third party consultant or integrator lurking around these situations. Odds are these guys own a local clone shop and aren't the brightest blubs themselves. Either way, their interest is selling hardware, not selling ongoing support and services. (I've seen these guys juggle their price lists because nobody will buy "Microsoft Small Business Server" as a seperate line item -- they will only buy the magic box.)

    If anything, there's something to be said about IBM's old business model where you wrote them a check every year, and they made sure that you were set up. Certainly in the low-end small business and school markets there's people who definately should be paying for it because they will never accumulate the knowledge themselves.

    So, there's a market here for service-oriented providers that maintain systems for their customer base. Linux is a perfect fit here, at least on the server. But I don't see these services advertised -- instead it's all "P550/64M/12G/AGPX4" commodity hardware stuff.
    --
  • Ok, then, what about LaTeX? It still works with any editor. (Personally, I use LaTeX for everything).

  • Torvalds didn't buy an OS from anyone and use it as a basis for Linux. Linux was written from scratch.

    Um, no. Linux was based on Minix. Linux was first posted to alt.os.minix. So, it isn't completely original.

  • Tell them that there's lots of one player games for Linux.


  • Since many here have mentioned that their school isn't going to do Linux, I thought I'd offer a bit of good news. I work at North Carolina State University in one of the largest computer labs on campus. (100 Leazar Hall) Our setup is based on Athena at MIT. (Kerberos, AFS, zephyrs) This lab is currently using SPARCstations running Solaris that are begining to show their age. Well, anyways...

    We are replacing most of the 200 or so machines in this lab with Dell PCs beginning Monday and ending in August. And they will be running EOS Linux. First new realm client being added to the system in a long time. I think its great and long overdue.

    So some schools do have a clue... Yeah, we have smaller labs running NT4 for some of the apps. But NT on our system is a support nightmare. (NT needs to be really screwed with on this Athena setup) So I'm happy the main Computer Science teaching lab isn't going to mess with Windows NT4. =)

    http://www.eos.ncsu.edu/labs/map/rooms/Proposed_le z.html [ncsu.edu]

  • Heh, well said. I started using Linux as my primary OS in '97 when it was as you say "cool". In my small town no one had heard of it (let alone Unix!) I kept telling people about it, and no one would listen. Then the Red Hat and VA Linux stock shot through the roof (never mind where it is now). The next thing I know people keep coming to work to ask me about "Linux this" and "Linux that". Suddenly I am "the Linux Guru" in town. I know I am no guru. I see the Guru posts on Usenet, and Slashdot and I wish I WAS a guru. Because I started using Linux first here in town everyone assumes I am. Wierd...

    I have a few systems running Linux, and I am building a new one, I was going to install Debian on it (each system has a different flavour) but now I think I am going to install OpenBSD just because its "different" and nobody around here seems to know what this "BSD" thing is... I wonder if that will be the case three years from now....

  • *sigh*

    I'm not arguing that this is the way it should be, or that this is how people think about everything. (ie I don't see a word processor == map bijection).

    This is simply my experience. People think every file can be read by everything. Anecdote: One of my friends (very smart, eloquent etc etc) needs to send a letter to my uni's CS and Maths departments. She knows they use Unix, and sends an MS Word attachment...

    I'm not entirely sure what you thought was wrong with my post aside from the fact that people know how to use maps, even though maps sometimes use different symbols for the same thing. Congratulations. That is true.

    Since I don't really understand what point you were intending to make, I can only assume some positions for you:

    1. I am dumb and made a stupid post. Reply: You don't want one, you already think I am an idiot.
    2. People (and possibly me) are dumb: they can use maps, so why the hell can't they change file formats? Reply: Map readers are aware of the differences between the maps and thus can use the fairly obvious similarities between them (or the key) to 'decode' them. End-users don't see the details of file formats, they see similar output for all of them, and thus assume they are the same, and probably aren't much more complicated that text. To fall into your wierd map analogy completely, seeing two maps, identical except for some differently formated town names, wouldn't you assume they were maps of the same area?

    But this is fairly silly. Pragmatically, it's this simple: people (and the students of this teacher in particular) don't get something. You either help them with it or choose the route of least resistance. In this case, a cost-benefit analysis might suggest least-resistance.

    --

    Instructions for a really good refutation of this post: Take all words, replace one in particular with the word 'pencil'.

  • > Linux is becoming corporatized. It's now the 'next new fad' of the computer industry. ... Not Linux because it's more stable and reliable than Windoze (although that began the fad), not Linux because it's secure and has strong multiuser support and uptime, not even Linux because it's a 1337 operating system, but Linux because it's the latest thing.

    Possibly your analysis as "fad" is correct, but you do not cite any evidence so support the claim.

    Is it not equally likely that IT needs are skyrocketing - as they always have - and that companies are installing Linux because it gives exceptional power at an exceptional price?

    --
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Even MSFT acknowledged that a serious OS needs serious command line and batching facilities.

    No, Linux's/UNIX's command line will never die. True, the 'normal' user won't see or use it, but the poweruser/system admin needs it to automate tasks, to work faster and more effective.

    Yes it takes more time to learn, but once you've learned it, it is simply faster and more convenient than a GUI.

    Sadly, most peoples idea of so called archaic CLI interfaces have been formed by the rotten DOS/Windows CLI, which doesn't compare to those of UNIX, VMS, OS/390 etc.
  • It's a Coke® and Pepsi® issue. Some fellas like Mathematica; others (myself included) like Waterloo Maple [maplesoft.com]. It depends on what your school pushes.
  • No, not Microsoft Office.

    The real world uses Windows 95 or 98, and Microsoft Office.

    AbiWord is enough of a Word clone, and Gnumeric is enough of an Excel clone, that it almost doesn't matter.

  • There is a critical difference that must be acknowledged when comparing Windows and Linux, however: the fact that Linux is yours. Many people get lost in the 'costless' part of the free software equation, and miss entirely the 'unencumbered' part. It's free because no one person can tell how you can or can't use it.

    It's yours to do with as you please, provided you aren't restricting someone else's use of it, which doesn't preclude hacking it to do what you want (and in your case, to not do what you don't want). Linux is really a concept, a core of functionality around which revolves an increasing bulk of other stuff which really isn't Linux itself, but a reflection of how people use Linux. StarOffice isn't Linux. Emacs isn't Linux. Hell, even the GNU tools aren't Linux, though one would be hard-pressed to separate the two.

    My point is: if Windows has bloat, you just have to suck it up, 'cause only Microsoft can change what 'Windows' is. If you think Linux has bloat, there's nothing stopping you from whittling off the cruft yourself. Hell, there'll probably be people that'll agree with you on the bloat issue, and help you with the whittling.

  • Linux is not a known word at my school. I think one of the big reasons is, it's free. Usually, free things suck. The free gifts you get for calling those 800 #'s, ya know ... those shitty ones. They don't understand that in this case, free IS better, free IS free, free in this case == stability, something we don't have now. Currently for the whole district, we pay about $90 for each copy of Windows, which totals to over $50,000 for the whole district. We have a site license for a security program, Fortress which is about $10 a copy, Norton Antivirus, $15 a copy, MS Works and MS Office, MS Office is $50 for each machine. When you total that up (which isn't all of it either..) you easily get probably $500,000+ in SOFTWARE ALONE. The machines are pos E-Machines, at $600 a peice. Times that by a whole school district, we won't go there. So why don't they do Linux when it's free? Star Office, when it's free? Security wise, you don't need outside programs...

    It's all because of support. There is no support, according to my school. They want to be able to phone someone up, unless they BUY RH or some varient, they don't get that. It's all really just a support issue.

  • I'm glad to hear it (Score:4)

    by SweenyTod ( 47651 ) <sweenytod.sweenytod@com> on Sunday May 14, 2000 @06:04PM (#1073330) Homepage
    High profile sites like Linuxcare are important for those of us pushing to get linux into our companies. Suits don't care a small pile of fetid dingo kidneys about how technically capable an OS is.

    What they want to know is "will my email go through?" Cost isn't the issue. But support is. Having high profile support organisations you can point the bean counters at is very important.

  • Tim O'Reilley == TOR (Score:4)

    by Shaheen ( 313 ) on Sunday May 14, 2000 @06:36PM (#1073331) Homepage
    It's obvious that Tim O'Reilley needs to be simplified to TOR. We talk about him too much on this site for everyone to spell that last name, and everyone loves TLA's, right?

  • sign a support contract with someone like UNISYS, Compaq (ex DEC)

    Buy support contracts from Compaq. Boycott Unisys for reasons discussed here [burnallgifs.org].

  • Rare public acknowledgement (Score:3)

    by Jburkholder ( 28127 ) on Sunday May 14, 2000 @06:10PM (#1073333)
    > I've already apologized to Dave for not talking with him before publishing my article, so that I could have gotten more of an inside view of how they now view their business.

    Well, that's kind of reassuring that O'Reilly appears to be taking some personal accountability for this. Marks him up in my book as having the integrity munch a little crow in public.

  • Actually, the suits where I work seem more concerned whether or not they'll still be able to play Solitaire.
  • Now think of the following scenario--you are running linux with staroffice as the main office suite. As far as I know SO doesn't have good built in support for either clarisworks, or word. (the office suites of choice in most schools)

    You are aware that there is a version of star office for windows that can be downloaded for free right? So the students can install it at home and use it for free-their parents can save the money they would have spent on ms office and get a memory upgrade.

    As it is, there is going to be a problem when you attempt to do cross platform disk reads.

    This is not going to be a problem. I take floppies/mo disks formatted with fat partitions between my linux computer and my roomates 98 box all the time.

    UH OH...it is in whatever format SO or WP defaults to... Most teachers I know do not have the technical expertise to deal with situations like that.

    If they have star office installed at home this wont be an issue.

    If you want to discuss this further email me.

    john
  • it seems that many linux-zealouts only like and use the OS because they can get a power trip on the thought that they are better than others because they know how to do some command in linux that is better than the Microsoft counterpart. When linux becomes popular, and everyone uses it, developers will start creating better GUI's. Archaic commands will no longer be used, and the zealouts will move onto a new OS. It's not about free-speech, free-software, or even the fact that it's better, it's about Power. About 99% of the *nix system admins that I have talked to are usually big pricks, who can never be wrong.


    Linux has it's moments. It's better and more stable than NT, but shouldn't be used for client machines.(kinda funny...slashdotters have argued in the past that linux shouldn't be compare to win95 because it isn't a client, and that it is better than win95 as a client).
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • reply from a teacher's perspective (Score:4)

    by Windjammer ( 145853 ) on Sunday May 14, 2000 @08:02PM (#1073338)
    OK, I tend to agree with you on most of those points, however I want to play devils advocate here. (and not for free bsd either)....When you are talking about public schools you have several other issues at hand as well. One of the first things you would need to keep in mind ESPECIALLY for public schools, is the KISS concept. Many teachers as it is are extremely skittish about using computers as it is, and if you make it any harder than necessary to use a computer, they will back away from them. The next thing you need to keep in mind is compatibility. After working with staroffice as well as word perfect, I found that neither of them had the "feel" of word or claris works. In addition there is another problem the minute you start thinking linux--it is the compatibility issue. I'm not referring to the server side of things, in fact linux was absolutely perfect for use as a netatalk server for a lab of 35 cranky mac classics. The compatibility issue I'm referring to comes from the fact that when you have an entire classroom full of students, who are using a lab to finish up a report, you NEED them to be able to pop their disk in from home, and bring the report up within a minute or two after sitting at their computer. Now think of the following scenario--you are running linux with staroffice as the main office suite. As far as I know SO doesn't have good built in support for either clarisworks, or word. (the office suites of choice in most schools) You have 30 kids in a class, 10 of which did part of the work at home. 5 of them did their work on clarisworks, the other 5 on word. As it is, there is going to be a problem when you attempt to do cross platform disk reads. Now take in to consideration that you are throwing in an alternative OS that I know first hand is VERY cranky about reading floppy disks (unless you build in some sort of automount autoformatread feature.... Here is the final thing...save off at the end of the period...Sammy, Joe, and Eric all need to finish their work at home. They save off, and when they go to bring the information up, UH OH...it is in whatever format SO or WP defaults to... Most teachers I know do not have the technical expertise to deal with situations like that. I also know firsthand, that if faced with something that proves to be EXTREMELY difficult to go around, most teachers look for alternatives esp if it deals with technology. Now computer science labs are a different beast linux would be my first choice for a CS lab...esp if they are PCs....
  • I don't know about your school, but my school basically implies that the computer and a Micro$oft OS are inseperable. Besides, if a person is so inept that he or she can't learn one word processing program afterlearning another, then I would question whether that person has anything useful to put into those programs.

    Even if the school doesn't teach anything other than that, it should at least inform students that there are alternatives, or educate them on the difference between an operating system, an application, and the underlying hardware. In the introductory computing class, a teacher was quoted as saying "Now, this loads your file into the screen." Then again, I shouldn't expect too much. This is a school that hires a basic electronics teacher that doesn't know to build a transistor amplifier.
  • >:Linux is not a known word at my school. I think one of the big reasons is,
    >:it's free. Usually, free things suck. The free gifts you get for calling
    >those :800 #'s, ya know ... those shitty ones. They don't understand that in
    >this :case, free IS better, free IS free, free in this case == stability,
    >something :we don't have now. Currently for the whole district, we pay about
    >$90 for :each copy of Windows, which totals to over $50,000 for the whole
    >district. We :have a site license for a security program, Fortress which is
    >about $10 a :copy, Norton Antivirus, $15 a copy, MS Works and MS Office, MS
    >Office is $50 :for each machine. When you total that up (which isn't all of it
    >either..) you :easily get probably $500,000+ in SOFTWARE ALONE. The machines
    >are pos :E-Machines, at $600 a peice. Times that by a whole school district,
    >we won't :go there. So why don't they do Linux when it's free? Star Office,
    >when it's :free? Security wise, you don't need outside programs...
    >:
    >:It's all because of support. There is no support, according to my school.
    >:They want to be able to phone someone up, unless they BUY RH or some varient,
    >:they don't get that. It's all really just a support issue. --

    Do you, by any chance, live on Long Island? My school, Farmingdale High School,
    has a setup surprisingly similar to yours, with Windows, Fortress, Office,
    NAV, etc. etc. The only problem is that the setup does not work properly. The
    school in increadibly lax in security, and computers have repeatedly been
    comprimised. In a lab of twenty, three of them are without boot sectors on
    their hard drives, five have corrupt registries, and the most important one,
    which is the sole computer with a Zip drive, BSODs, usually fatally, every five
    minutes due to corrupt DLLs and vxds. This does not count the fact that
    virtually every computer's "preferences" are changed on a daily basis, usually
    to Comic Sans MS for the default font, yellow-on-white, and strange Word
    settings that inhibit normal use, or at least require precious time to access.
    Network access is over some strange combination of IPX/SPX and TCP/IP, and the
    NT server essentially gives everyone administrator access because the one
    sysadmin is either too busy or too indifferent to set up proper security.
    The network itself simply does not work, on a random basis for each
    computer, and the connections are always tenous with at least 50%
    packetloss (over IP, anyway.) The users in my school are increadibly
    illiterate; most of them don't even know what the network is, or what the
    error message "No domain server available" means, and only complain that "No
    H: drive is available" to save their work on *after* they have worked on it
    for forty minutes. My school makes no effort to education them on their inner
    workings, only how to type in M$ Word. Most users in my school think regedit
    is "too technical". At least my local computer repair establishment has a
    great deal of business, despite the fact that it charges exhorbinant rates. In
    my work for the yearbook and school newspaper, articles are often mangled or
    outright deleted, but my proposal for passwords was called "overkill" and "too
    complication". And one last thing: Each user has their own account. That is
    good. The only problem is that each account's login name is the students'
    student IDs, the password is the students' initials, and the students
    generally use the public directories anyway.

    Do you have any ideas on how to solve these problems? I find it disgusting
    that my school wastes a perfectly good PIII-500 server with 256mb of memory
    and twenty computers with 200mhz processors, sound cards, four gigabyte disk
    drives, etc. on this crap when one of those workstations acting as a server
    for thin clients would better server my school's needs and be more secure at
    the same time.
  • So what you're saying, is that windows2000 is basically an add-on to qdos?

    But of course I'm sure that you're as happy to state that linux is just tacked onto Unix 0 on some Vax machine in the mists of time.

    Frankly, it's just grandpa's axe. The handle's been replaced a few times, and it's gone through 13 heads, but it's the same axe. In fact, windows2000 must be the latest upgrade from MacroSloth Abacus(tm) (17)23.

    And no, gates didn't write the operating system- He never claimed to have written it. All he did was make a brilliant business decision. If you don't like the end result, blame IBM. He did however write a shitload of the stuff it came with (including the BASIC in ROM on all the old machines), and he did invent the filesystem it ran on.

    -Gfunk

  • I feel for you in your support nightmare, but let me ask this:

    Why not VMWare or some other package to negate the need for the dual booting?

    I'm a big fan of emulation, especially in something as stable as a Unix based OS. Several of my friends use VMWare and other variants on the theme to great success. It can be argued that interoperability can be gained in a lot of different ways and this is merely a variation on the theme, imo.

    Personally, I won't give up my Mac, simply because the desktop is a friend I've had for 15+ years now, but I do use the linux machine on the LAN for my other important work and see no reason not to possibly put some windows emulator on the machine just for the comfort of being able to muck around with a few apps I got sent but can't use.


  • That has to be the single stupidest argument around for using MS software in education.

    What happens to all those people that you've just taught Word to when the next version comes out and the interface has changed? You get a pile of calls to the company help desk asking them where the font settings menu item went.

    What you need to teach in schools is concepts, not implementations. Take a look at any decent CS course - do they teach you that "the only way to use a computer is through version X.XX of Yoyodyne's C compiler"? No, they teach you about algorithms, about data structures, about procedural languages and declarative languages, about fundamental concepts that will let you work on any computer system created, past or future.

    That's the sort of flexibility that education needs to provide. Otherwise you end up with a workforce that needs retraining three years after graduation.

  • [When linux becomes popular, and everyone uses it, developers will start creating better GUI's. Archaic commands will no longer be used, and the zealouts will move onto a new OS.]

    You mean normal evolution in software will take its natural course? Yes, of course. Stating the obvious? I do not think Linux of today will be the same O.S. we are using 20 years from now! Newer paradigms will arrive.

    [ It's not about free-speech, free-software, or even the fact that it's better, it's about Power.]

    That is a limited view! Yes, power may be the driver for some, but there are other factors to consider. Flexibility is one, free (as in liberty) and free (as in no-cost) are others. Performance is another. The list goes on and on... Just picking up one factor and making the be-all/end-all is not productive!

    [About 99% of the *nix system admins that I have talked to are usually big pricks, who can never be wrong.]

    I do not agree with the 99%. I assume that you just meant "a large number", rather than an exact figure drawn from scientific studies. You mean that they are human, and suffer from the shorfalls of being human? Yes, so what? You find pricks in atheletes, actors, celebrities, managers, engineers, techies, children, ...etc. So why generalize?

  • Torvalds didn't buy an OS from anyone and use it as a basis for Linux. Linux was written from scratch. Then then Stallman's GNU software was added a bit later so that it actually had some decent functionality.

  • MS Works was the problem in my case. The only Word processor that doesn't handle Word Format is made my MS. Strangley enough, last tinme I tried RTF, Word managed to interpret it differently. I propose that everybody should use Wordperfect 5 format for everything.
  • What about HTML?
    It's easy to learn, there are a zillion 'WYSIWYG'
    editor programs, it can be read on virtually any
    platform, and best of all, it's plain-text!

    Binary text file formats are pure evil from the smoking pits of hell. :)

    --Kevin

    =-=-=
  • That's not to say that linux is going to be around forever, or die in the next two years. Linux is going to be a BIG player in the next decade....but i'm afraid that corporate big wigs are going to kill it. I'm afraid that corporate greed is going to usurp the freedom that everyone went to linux for in the first place.

    This is scarily easy to believe. If fluxrad is right, then it looks like we have to give Stallman credit for having seen further ahead than the rest of us.

    Yes, RMS is extremist, blinkered, dismissive of everyone who doesn't agree with him, and approaching paranoia. No, I don't like the way he summarily disses non-techie things he clearly knows nothing about (religion springs to mind). But we're close, aren't we, to concluding that Free Software (because free is right) is more important than Open Source (because open is efficient). After all, what's efficient this year will be prehistoric next year. But freedom will still be important.

    --

  • Linux does not contain any Minix code, and it never did. Linus happened to be using Minix (or MINIX as it's more properly known) to start developing his Linux kernel. For convenience, he wrote code to access the Minux filesystem, to share data between the two OSes. So you could say that the Linux kernel was 'inspired by' Minix - it was kind of a reaction against it, actually - but it's not 'based on' Minix.

  • <DEVIL'S_ADVOCATE>

    So, if I've read TOR's articles correctly, we're going to end up in a situation where corporations pay companies like Linuxcare to provide them with support and services for their Linux installations. If the client wants the OS customised, then they'll probably pay for that too...

    So, at the end of the day, from the client's point of view, the model isn't that different from that for proprietary software. You pay a fee up front (except it's for customisation, installation and training services, rather than for a licence) and an ongoing fee for support.

    </DEVIL'S_ADVOCATE>

    D.
    ..is for DEVIL'S ADVOCATE, for the benefit of stupid people.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • You mean normal evolution in software will take its natural course? Yes, of course. Stating the obvious? I do not think Linux of today will be the same O.S. we are using 20 years from now! Newer paradigms will arrive.

    no, what im saying is that many slashdotters/linux zealouts have the "sold out" attitude. They only use linux because it is different from "the norm".
  • Did anyone besides me notice that this reply is attached to the wrong post? This isn't the first time I've noticed this happening since the server change.

    It is currently attached to #26 [slashdot.org], but looks like it should be attached to #12 [slashdot.org]. Does anyone know if this is a bug in slashcode or just a mistake by the poster?

  • I've had the same thing happen to one of my posts... but I've had it happen before the server change, too...
  • "Well, NTFS is cut up in 4k chunks, so it really doesn't matter. You'll never notice those extra few bytes on larger files..."

    I had a report that was ~30-40k in .rtf, and came in at ~1MB in Office 97... haven't installed Word2k... I saw it on a machine and nearly cried out loud "Oh my...! What *have* they done!!!"

    Scary...
  • Star Office works well, too. KOffice looks pretty sweet...
  • Maple works well on Linux, and is (for certain things) much better than Mathematica... it all depends on what you use it for. Maple is much better than it was in 95/96... ugh.

    A personal choice issue, for the most part.
  • Some general notes that can be applied to LinuxCare:
    1. One major advantage a startup has is maneuverability. The smaller the company, the more you can turn on a dime.
    2. Cutting staff (read: burn-rate) increases short term maneuverability.
    3. The #1 reason companies go out of business: not enough startup capital. Cutting the burn rate is obviously helpful here too.

    - jonathan.
  • Oh, I got your point. I was being ironical. Hence the (G) as in (Grin). Peace.

  • Shouldn't 'everyone loves TLAs' be shortened to 'ELT'?

    Of course, some might argue that ELT means 'everyone loves three' which I don't think is true, but I do believe the new standard provides for recursive macro expansion, which neatly solves this problem.

  • Aw shit! (Score:4)

    by fluxrad ( 125130 ) on Sunday May 14, 2000 @07:24PM (#1073361)
    Does anyone remember when we all started using linux cause it was cool?? It was this REALLY GOOD operating system. Now linux is getting into a framework where everyone talks about the "business model" and the "value added" components, and the blah and the blah and the blah.

    And the winner of the worst, or most cliched, term involving linux is....(drum roll)

    Tim O'Reilly for "Thinking Outside the Box"

    (we watch as Tim goes up to accept his award and i'm in the back puking my guts out - i shout from my station at the porcelain cubicle "I'm fucking switching to BSD")

    I posted in another article that one of the large downfalls of the internet is going to be "ownership." Everyone wants to own a piece of the HUGE economic pie that is the internet. Nearly the same could be said for linux...only it's eventual downfall will be one of two things. Either a better OS comes along (probably not, as evidinced by the perennial domination of that "other" graphical based operating system), or it will sink into the myre of business based applications and corporate double-plus-unspeak. The scariest thing i see about the articles we all just read...is that the second looks like it's going to happen sooner than we think.

    That's not to say that linux is going to be around forever, or die in the next two years. Linux is going to be a BIG player in the next decade....but i'm afraid that corporate big wigs are going to kill it. I'm afraid that corporate greed is going to usurp the freedom that everyone went to linux for in the first place. Why would a business open source a product that IS their cash cow? Look at Microsoft. Look at Apple. Sorenson, Real. Proprietary business looking to make a buck off linux eventually challenge the GPL and make proprietary changes (which have a frighteningly strong chance of holding up against at relatively weak GPL). They'll demand that everyone in their company use it, fuck compatibility! And they'll start using terms to describe linux, and linux based companies, that refer to "thinking outside the box" - of course, we'll need to make sure that they're "value added" (I just actually understood what the fuck that meant like a month ago).

    Eventually, hackers (not the ones you saw defined in Webster's) will get sick of all the bloat that linux has become, and they'll switch to the next "linux" - (probably invented by some bolivian hacker named Binuso Torvales or something). Why? Because quick changes stoped being made, code wasn't as good as it should have been. Proprietary software wasn't just common, it was the norm. And linux turned into what it was supposed to kill. You may not like it...but if linux IS the best operating system available today (just nod, cause it is)...then we've seen it's fate in another OS. (hint, it's founder's name starts with B, and ends in "ill Gates")

    I'm not saying I'm abandoning linux. That's not going to happen for a LONG time to come. I'm just saying let's watch it. Let's never forget the ethic that made most of us switch to it in the first place, not the relative bloat of Windows, but the absolute freedom of linux.


    FluX
    After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network

  • And what, exactly, is wrong with plain ASCII (or Unicode) text documents? School reports don't need fancy formatting, embedded documents, double-strikethrough-underline-bold-vertical-shado wed-blinking-red text, or text. What's wrong with text?

    Nothing's wrong with text except that people don't know it exists. People who don't turn bold, italic, justify on, are very likely un-clueful (I don't like 'clueless' cos I know many clever people who just aren't interested enough to 'get' computers at anything more than a superficial level).

    A lot of people, even people who use computers on a semi-regular basis, don't get the idea of non-compatible file formats, or non-compatible anything. They think of computers as a tool, which should be designed to do what they want, easily, and obviously, one thing they want is to transfer files. So they should be able to click save and everything should be sweet.

    Even if they do understand how to ask MS Word or whatever to save in ASCII, they don't understand why that has to happen, and thus the whole thing will be a big turn-off.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • my point was that I have seen slashdot argue for and against something, at different times, depending on when it was good for the linux community.
  • Actually, the suits where I work seem more concerned whether or not they'll still be able to play Solitaire. I had a friend who wanted my to install linux for him, then after about a hour of playing with the different card games I had put on it he complained that none of them were like windows solitare and wanted to switch back. So he booted back into win95, started solitare and BSOD'd. andy j.
  • So, from their point of view, nothing changes, except the fact that they CAN make changes they want to the OS, and not hope that some (other)megalomaniacal corporation makes whatever changes they need. A lot of people tend to forget that before the wintel systems took over, it wasn't uncommon for places to get source licenses (although somewhat restrictive) to the OSs... (SunOS, etc)

  • Obviously you have never tried or seen anyone try to get support for an M$ product.

    You have too choices. You can try using the support that was included in your intial purchase. This will get you a total non specalist on the end of the phone who will be using the same problem databse /FAQ that you can access on the M$ website for free. You get the same level of support from most LINUX distros at their web sites. (IMHO you get a better quality of database and FAQs from the LINUX mob), you, also have access to various usenets mailling lists where some very talented people will try to solve your problems just cos they are nice guys.

    Optionally you can sign a support contract with someone like UNISYS, Compaq (ex DEC) or even M$ itself. These contracts cost you large sums of money -- but you do get access to technical expertise.

    Such support is also available for LINUX.

    I think the real problem here is instutional laziness. It is very difficult to force a change through in any large orgnisation, and much more difficult in any Civil Service/Goverment buearocracy. Its easier to follow existing procedures and do what the last guy did than to push for a switch to LINUX, even if it means throwing away close to a million dollars which could have been spent on actual education.

  • I agree to the most of it, however, i don't mind that companies make their products/drivers linux friendly, as long as they put it under GPL (like creative with emu10k1), or when they give it away for free, like star office. but when they demand money for it, or force you to buy a licensce and register it, I fire up my dissassembler and start cracking. those who want to pay for the stuff, i dont mind, i just dont like it when they try to make money on other peoples efforts.
  • Eventually, hackers (not the ones you saw defined in Webster's) will get sick of all the bloat that linux has become, and they'll switch to the next "linux"[..]

    Well.. perhaps. But with Linux you don't need the bloat. Some people run KDE.. some people run GNOME. I run fvwm with a solid black background and all window borders off.

    My point is that we can choose to not use the bloatware. For now anyway..

    (but I've better start reading Operating Systems: Design And Implementation ;-))

  • Does anyone remember when we all started using linux cause it was cool??

    No, not really. The first person I knew to pick up Linux did so because the then-available BSD variants wouldn't deign to run on anything as lousy as his hardware, and Linux would.

    Now, he first person I knew to pick up a BSD (Net, IIRC) did it because it was cool. I picked up Linux because I liked it.

    Picking up Linux because it is cools is a far more recent phenomenon.

  • Pity my moderation period is just expired.

    I definitely agree with the following sentence:

    What you need to teach in schools is concepts, not implementations.

    In other words, schools need to teach more on computers than how to push buttons, whatever OS they choose to use.

    If more people knew the difference between data and program, the ILOVEYOU virus would have had a much less impact, if any.

  • you've seen people on /. argue for and against something. I think the problem here is that you're looking for a concentrated opinion or an "Official Corporate Viewpoint", and you're just not gonna find it. It can be quite confusing if you think many voices are speaking for one.

    --
  • Yup, that's about what it is. Learning how to use Word, Excel, keyboarding basic documents, etc..

    All of which I believe you can do with Star Office quite easily.
  • while i don't necessarily disagree with you, if students and working on papers/programs/etc. at both school and home it's helpful to have a common platform. the school has to serve a large number of people and it goes without saying that most of the students who have computers at home are probably either using macs or a windows box.

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