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Linux Software

Linux Appliances 113

Posted by CmdrTaco from the technology-rob-dreams-about-in-his-sleep dept.
Has anyone else noticed the proliferation of little Linux appliances? The latest couple that have been submitted are the PIA (which runs on a Celeron and looks to be available for $300). The other is from Indrema which is still vapor, but with things like a wireless keyboard and an SVHS port, it looks like a cool game box. Rumored release for it is November with a sub $500 price tag. These guys are getting close to what the NetWinders wanted to be a year ago ... What else does the Linux appliance future hold?
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Linux Appliances

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  • Re:But is it because Linux is superior? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I'm the moderator who said this was a Troll. I wish /. gave moderators some time to defend themsleves, so here goes..

    The post moderated was utter trash. As pointed out in a follow up to it, the merits of the post were total crap. BSD is just as seperated as Linux in terms of Kernel and Userspace. The points on the open development model were trash. I could submit a patch to Linus and he can reject it just as quickly as any BSD kernel maintainer could.

    As for the forking issue, I don't see how it's a bad thing. The code can still be reused and remerged. The big forks of BSD out there (Open, Free and Net) all exist to fill a niche, just like the specialized Linux versions that are showing up (the ones for Clustering, Real Time, etc.)

    Anyway, I hope my justification sticks, and I think that the moderators that made this trash 'informative' need to be shot. The BSDL is just as Open Source as the GPL. BSD will not die any more then Linux will.

    And one more thing, will people STOP begging for karma by saying 'I know I'll get modded down for this'. It's sick.

  • Correct me if I'm wrong but . . . (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole problem with Linux being difficult to setup and not truly plug and play due to unpredictable hardware and lack of drivers? Isn't that why Macintosh and Sun computers work right out of the box, why Windows resorts to gratuitous use of `wizzards' and why you need a college degree to setup Linux or BSD correctly?

    With an `appliance' type device where the company is selling the hardware with pre-installed software, shouldn't it be an absolute no-brainer to setup and use, assuming the company has done their job correctly and finished all of the difficult setup ahead of time?

    just my .02 Gil

  • I wanna see Linux on a single chip! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    One chip. CPU. Memory. Flashdisk. Ethernet. Video. Keyboard. Mouse. Serial ports. Just add power and connectors. When will it happen?
  • A couple times a year this super computer show thing comes to town. You can pick up simple computers like this for around $300, but with floppy, cdrom, keyboard, etc. Aside from the odd case, does this thing have any real benefits over a standard small tower PC?
  • Don't expect these devices to be much like what you have on your desktop. No command line and no X windows. More likely, they will their own custom user interface, probably with a touch screen or something similar. The only part of the systems that will be Linux will be kernel, and perhaps a few utilities hidden well away from the user. Remember, for appliances, manufacturers want to target the software to fit the intended use of the hardware.

    --
  • Huh? It DOES run a linux distro - that was
    the original hack. Someone found an even
    simpler way to get netbsd onto it too!

    Now they claim they've made it un-hackable -
    time will tell.

  • Not even on a Super VHS VCR?
  • Sure I could throw together an AMD K6-450, 128MB, 4.5B, 10/100BT machine with a 17" monitor a for about the same price +/- the shipping but that assumes that my time is worth $0.00. For the folks at home to get connected it sure sounds like enough. Of then I'd have to add some basic compatible desktop office type software, an IM of some kind that could get to AOL, some printer drivers, a modem so 6=1, half dozen=the other. If this netpliance works for what it works for it's great if you compare it to Rebel or Cobalt, etc. just on cost alone (for personal use low end web connections only.)
  • Considering Linux is free, you can pare it down to fit on a floppy and still do scripting, TCP/IP, etc, and did I say it was free? With a opensource lightweight display system it will even fit in more places then it does now and it is free.
  • The toaster is one of the simplest electronic appliances in one's house: it's essentially just a coil of wire that heats up and has a lil heat-activated release device. It is thought by some that the epitomy of smartification (adding computers unnecessarly) would be to give the one of the simplest appliances a computer.

    Speaking of which, i need to go check on my toast... i think the PalmPilot i now use to control my toaster has crashed again. ;-)

  • Show me one Sun machine that you can just pop it out of the box and lets users work of it..

    Buy any sun computer nowadays and you will find the OS preinstalled. The patches you need to install are not required for new hardware. Only on revolutionary third party software will you need to install patches or add files to /etc/. You may have to configure the device to make it work (i.e. setting an IP address on an ethernet card) but that should be expected.

    "boot -r" or "reboot -- -r" will rebuild the devices. Almost all devices that are made for the Sparc platform make the physical devices conform to a strict list of instructions for compatability. This is pretty much the same with Macintosh. The drivers are bundled with the OS, and the vendors adhere to those specifications.

    The problems are not in the software, they are in the legacy hardware that does not have specified instructions to use for most types of devices. The hardware vendors for the x86 platform are expected to product their own drivers and distribute them with the hardware.

    // dijit
    dijit@half-truth.com

    "Always check your facts before speaking like an expert."

  • It's the ability to make any changes the develuper sees fit with out letting anyone know anything is being develuped at all.
    Yes Linuxes popularity plays a roll but not in the marketting. It's all those programs that a develuper can addapt to the appliance.
    Cut down on develupment time making minimal changes to the source such as rewriting the vertual console to run on a specalised chipset rewrite the sound drivers to use a costume sound chip rewrite the video4Linux drivers to use a specallised video sample chipset.
    All the while making minnor changes in existing applications to run on the system.
    Add to that an existing romdrive allready in the kernel and an operating system thats not to fussy about how it boots and you have the ideal operating system for appliances.

    TiVo and i-Opener appeals to gadget freaks... there is a larg Linux geek gadget freak overlap to create the illusion of "Linux appeal"
    However in my famaly the gadget freak is my sister and I am the Linux geek.
    She wants TiVo.. I don't..

    While the cost cutting advantages are a plus it's really a matter of getting from the drawing bord to the maket fast with out letting anyone outside know you are doing anything.
    Beat the compeditor to the market while doing your best to make sure there are no compeditors...
  • Linux faces the issue of "Not made for you"...
    Linux is allways playing catchup in drivers..
    Hardware venders only release drivers for the primary operating system of the target hardware. They do not bother with Linux drivers.
    To make matters worse many companys won't release specs so if Linux drivers are to be made the hardware has to be reverse engeneared.

    Considering all this Linux ports to PC, Mac and Sparc pritty well.

    With as well as Linux dose in keepping up on Linux hostile hardware Linux should work wonders on a Linux friendly platform.
    Linux dose have Plug and play support but as hostile environments rarely plug and "play fair" Linux tends to backoff rather than push the issue and crash..
  • YOu can create your own using the PCChips Book PC [ebay.com]. I'm not sure if Linux has all of the drivers you need and I'm aware of PCChips quality problems but I really like the book PC features. BTW: I put a ebay link to the article because PCChips site is so slow. I'm not the person selling this item.
  • Disposable income? HA! That would be nice...
  • The CardPC [cellcomputing.com] is most compact off-the-shelf device now. Motherboard the size of a PC Card. Available from several manufacturers.
  • We have a WAN with remote sites that require us to fly in. (no road access). Linux allows us to create a small distribution on a flash drive and run it on a ram disk. We are not programmers, shell scripts maybe but that is it. Now we build these small direcpc routers, ship them on site and they work. We never hear again from the site or the client. Certainly more versatile for us non-programmers.
  • I'm afraid not.
  • Can't do that in Debian -- it makes you enter the root password when runlevel 1 starts up. Kind of annoying if you screwed up your passwd file, I can tell you from experience.
  • I'ts a big shame that the iOpener doesn't run a linux distro, otherwise there wouldn't be as much of a desire to hack it. I live down under, and can't get an iOpener :-( , otherwise I'd have 10 running as terminals, and print servers.
    -0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-
    Laptop006
    laptop006@netexecutive.com
    Vic, Australia
  • Ohmigod, you mean to say that a large corporation with billions of dollars and over two decades of product releases behind them has more credibility than some small unknown company that has never released a product? Amazing!
  • so, just boot onto a floppy (will these things let you boot onto a floppy? they must if you can install RH I guess) and mount the hard drive and change the password by hand *shrug* doesn't seem like that much of a big deal...
  • these machines are not for linux users...i dont see the market potential for these.... i booted it..i couldnt even access root... uh HELLO?!?! then i tried to an install of Red Hat 6.1 no luck there.. something else seems fishy because i couldnt get it to read another drive that already had RH on it... i mean it the BIOS couldnt even see the thing?!!?!? anyway i would stay away from them.... save up for a REAL computer... i wanted to do some gateway and NFS type stuff on it... for home use... which is really why you would use Linux anyway.. and couldnt .. you get no apache or anything fun ;) it's just like a shitty version of Windows 98... heh... if you were going to buy a cheap machine to do office software.. dont buy a PIA.. waste o time period.... again i dont see the market potential for these boxes .. since it doesnt really exploit the potential of linux... it might as well run on well Windows... hell get an Imac ... im sending it back on Monday
  • Are there any other machines similar to a Cobalt RaQ or Qube that can be rigged to serve? These net appliances seem to accommodate surfers and such but what about really cheap internet servers?
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • I can't wait unitl linux has toast. Additionally, who made this tab key so sensitive in slashdot?
  • Wow the NetWinder... what a great idea. Runs on like 15 watts, DC powered, small, and inexpensive parts. Problem is, it's too damn expensive.

    From a web hosts' standpoint, it could have been a dream come true. A perfect solution for building an inexpensive server farm to allow clients to each have their own dedicated server. Corel could have been chewing Cobalt's market to shreds (it truly amazes me that Cobalt stays in business) because they did get it right. Yet the price held it back, and commodity PC hardware is still king in the dedicated server market because it's still cheaper.

    Close, Corel... pretty close.

  • Or merely cheap? If the latter, why not use Free/Net/OpenBSD?

    Because Linux is divided into a kernel and discrete components, such as the C library, bash, command line utilities, etc., which can be easily separated and replaced with something else.

    With *BSD, the OS distribution gives strong incentive to use what is provided in /usr/src and /usr/ports, to the exclusion of software not provided. Further, it's more difficult to do a binary-only installation. You're always going to have source code for something hanging around, and probably not something you intended to keep, and certainly not tarred and gzipped!

    To build an embedded Linux operating system [linuxembedded.org], all you need to do is build a Linux kernel, build a libc (e.g. glibc2 or newlib [cygnus.com], and build whatever other tools you need, then combine them into a nice binary distribution. Even without a package mangler.

    I can't even begin to conceive of how one would build such a thing with *BSD without seriously disturbing the OS installation hosting the build process. I'm sure it could be done, but if it were that easy, someone would have done it by now.

    Further, Linux is open source and open development. Anybody can participate. BSD is far less open source, and far less open development. Ever tried to submit a patch to a *BSD kernel? Ha, good luck. There should be no question as to why the BSD kernel keeps forking.

    As for Linux vs. BSD, BSD advocates will say that it is technically superior in many areas, and be correct. However, Linux is far superior in at least one aspect: the manner in which it is developed. I expect BSD to be left in the dust in all technical areas that matter within a very short time, unless they can get their act together.

    Foo. There went all my karma.
    ---

  • hmmm...great idea...but what happens when the core dumps?
  • yay, new kernel features, darkness, heat, length of toasting...
  • what is this?
  • What's the problem with more little Linux toys. More little Linux toys means more things we geeks can play with on Airline flights, impress fellow geeks with, and repel chicks with.
  • is that a euphimism? :)
  • and then there are the options split --tree and...
  • hehehe, golly I wish I could have moderated this one, it's funny... :)
  • *giggle* feel free to pass them my way!
  • I think that would be great, perhaps even super-cool neato (adapted from gatespeek), but why did you post as anonymous coward?
  • OH! now I get it, you're making fun of people who post just to get some positive, karma, right?
  • Perhaps we'll soon see a story about a new microwave running Linux...complete with customized alarm settings... :)
  • If I were bringing out a new product I would much rather use a free item (linux) instead of paying (Microsoft). Linux is really the only logical choice for these new products.
  • Everyone's quick to call the Indrema vaporware but the X-box, oh it's very real. With it's "600mhz x86 processor" of no description. I suppose it just shows the influence MS has, even on "non-believers".
  • I think it has a lot to do with control. What brands of bread do you use? Call it paranoia but it's a perfectly normal reaction to everyone being out to get you :D.
  • The PIA just looks like a standard cheap computer. something like the iOpener with a built in screen and being nice and compact would be better. the PIA doesn't even include a moniter
  • i'll pass the ones that start going on about how windows wont do "insert very amusing thing it wont ever do, but still... people being who they are want it to", and i keep the linux ones =)
  • we have a pair of those at work, and they are slick little systems. our main pages are on them right now, and the cool thing about them (imo) is all the comments from people we have coming into the shop when they find out that our webhosting servers are on my desk =)
  • The problem is, in order to make your toast lighter or darker, you have to recompile the kernel, or else reconfigure the module via /etc/toast.conf...

  • "[i]s out already" apparently does not mean "I can go buy one." Unless I'm missing something, I can't put my hands on one right now unless I want to buy 10,000 of them.

    I'm also extremely interested in how they plan to handle the composite/s-video outputs and DVD decoding under Linux...

    I'd buy a few of the boxes right now if they were available at a reasonable price. (I just bought two PIAs but this is what I really want.)

  • Why is it always toasters? I mean, what's the obsession people have with computers and toasters? I remember during the y2k fiasco, people jokingly asking if their toasters were y2k compatible. Now, talking about Linux on the toaster. Is it like, the ultimate hidden goal of humanity, to get a computer onto a toaster? Idunno, just mindless ramblings I guess.
  • Yes, but Linux has the advantage of being somewhat more efficient for similar uses. Like the old problem with WinNT based servers - who needs a complex gui on a file server? Windoes, in any incarnation, has a whole bunch of extra crap that will waste resources, therefore requiring a more powerful, and expensive, system. Unfortunately, Windoes also has the raw market brute force required to push their products onto large businesses anyways, who will in turn produce the more widespread products. So, once again, as always, it'll be the smaller businesses with a few smart sympathizers and highter efficiency fighting the megalopoly with its advertising muscle and extensive rescources.
  • >COMMADORE

    Did you mean Commodore, as in the computer ( =D for those that remember )?

    I don't remember any of the Commodore series (the PET, the VIC, or the C64/128) ever coming with any kind of taco promotion. When did you get such a machine? I would be interested to know...

    Or, if you mean "taco biased", would you point out to me exactly where a taco biases the circuitry? That would be one of the most ingenious hacks I've ever seen.

    Perhaps the taco came with their typwriters, or other business products (like filing cabinets, mouse pads, or the dreaded Commodore PC). Whichever it is, PLEASE send us a picture.

    >more like a badly written commercial.

    Now I _KNOW_ you are talking about Commodore Computers...
  • A 386, SX-16 with 4 MB RAM and 20 MB hard drive will run Linux with Apache. That should be the cheapest solution. And with that low a running frequency, you probably won't have to worry about buying a case.

    That solution will run you about -$5 if you are lucky (the person with the machine will probably give you $5 to take it away).

    I wouldn't try serving more than 1 person at a time, though, with that little memory... :-)
  • All of these things look absolutely marvelous. When it comes down to the single or limited use market for computers (gaming boxes, mp3 players, toasters...) these things seem to fit the bill quite nicely.

    The only question I ask is, how will the ease of use factor fit in to everything? I mean, I am quite aware on how easy linux has become to configure/maintain, but can these ever be something my parents could use?

    But hey, they have troubles using the microwave, so that probably wasn't a good example ;-)

    -bugbbq

  • sample of Commercial Appliances based on FreeBSD -
    Nokia Firewall/VPN Appliances [nokia.com]
    Internet Devices, Inc. - Products Overview [alcatel.com]

    router/dialup/etc ... - FreeBSD on a Floppy...
    PicoBSD [freebsd.org]

    Commercial Embedded BSD [bsdi.com] from BSDI [bsdi.com]

  • While these new Linux appliances say something about the scalability of Linux/other unices (Microsoft had to completely recreate Windows in order to have their crappy WinCE), these computers don't use Linux for what it's best at. It's not exactly rocket science to create an internet PC, with basic browsing functions and so forth. When trying to create an internet appliance, which is supposed to run very few functions very reliably, the flexibility of the OS (what Linux is great at) is not important. It's nice that some companies are helping to promote Linux by using it for appliances. However, I'd rather see more high end PCs coming pre-shipped with Linux or at least hardware supported by Linux from major OEMs.
  • Why are you trying to advertize something that you already use with your incestuos sister? I see that you are still AC! You are one limp biscuit! Who's your daddy? Shouldn't you be in schrool? I expect an answer dillan or dilbert or dildado or whatver your name is. I know your name! It is laddy! You are 15 years old and you enjoy taking a shower with yourself, a mirror, a bar of soap, and yourself again. Go figure? Maybe you like dropping the soap and watching yourself bendover in the mirror. Didn't someone make a movie on fudgepackers like yourself? That word, fudgepackers, I think it doesn't have anything to do with WillyWonka or even See's Candy. What does it mean? I think I'll leave the secret with you and you again!
  • I'm still not 100% convinced that this isn't just another marketing gimmick to get all of the comp.power.users to take a closer look...Play the hardcore user angle and you are guaranteed to get some interest from specific groups, or at least get your site /.'ed.
  • Let's get this straight right now, Linux is not "Unix Based" it is "Unix Compliant (or compatible)" If it was "Unix Based" it would not be opensource, Linus Torvalds wrote Linux from scratch to be Unix compatible, but all the source code was his (and some contributors from the net) nothing was taken as such from Unix.... Hope this helps you understand...

  • Linux Dildoes (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    My company, Electro-Orgasm, Ltd. [electro-orgasm.com] is planning on developing a female sexual stimulation device running the Linux operating system. (Note: our Web site is new, so if it doesn't resolve for you, it's because the DNS record hasn't propogated yet!) We believe that Linux has a big future in the personal stimulation market, and we took a long, hard, and penetrating look at Linux when it came time to evaluate operating platforms for our new dildo line.

    We ruled out Windows CE almost immediately. The last thing that we want to have is a situation where a customer is in the act of gratifying herself, and the damn vibrator crashes. The nightmare scenario that we came up with was this:

    CUSTOMER: Ooooooh, yeah.

    VIBRATOR: *WHIR* *WHIR* *WHIR*

    CUSTOMER: OOOOH BABY, yeah, that's how I like it!

    VIBRATOR: *WHIRRRRRRRR*

    CUSTOMER: YES, YES, YES, I'M ALMOST THERE! GOD, YES! GOD, YES!

    VIBRATOR: (makes the sound that the broken hyperdrive on the Millenium Falcon makes in The Empire Strikes Back; it slowly comes to a stop)

    CUSTOMER: What the fuck?

    Obviously, gentlemen, this is a situation that is to be avoided at all costs. We need a vibrator that has a System Availability Rating of 100%. That means that we turned to the Linux operating system. Linux has a well-deserved operation for stability. In our eyes, that makes Linux one hell of a dildo-riffic operating system! We equipped our vibrators with the same 65C02 processor that was used in the Apple //c, and then we hired Alan Cox to port Linux to our device. (The running joke around here is that we hired Alan Cox to port Linux to our Mechanical Cox.)

    So far, things have been going great! You can look for the first Linux dildoes and vibrators to hit the market at the beginning of next fiscal year (October 1 or thereabouts.) And guys, don't despair! Linux Penis Pumps are just around the corner! Now your favorite open-source operating system can literally make your dick bigger!
  • Show me one Sun machine that you can just pop it out of the box and lets users work of it..

    There is no such a beast..

    Most of the times you'll need to throw lots of patches in, add few configuration files (look at configurations files in /etc), and many other tweaks.. so please!

    On the iMac - I Agree with u
  • Well, the answer is simple: money

    Call QNX and ask for prices for your Appliance. Now, call Lineo and ask for their prices. (Hint: Lineo is MUCH cheaper than QNX)

    The guys at Lineo managed to squeeze Linux to 222k! and they have solved many RealTime problems that the original kernel had...

    You can also hire some Linux kernel hackers to do the job and it will be much cheaper then taking QNX or other solutions..

  • Or dumping the log.
    And don't forget to flush - but PLEASE don't use the sync!

    Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
    Thought exists only as an abstraction
  • Even with new Linux appliances, there is still going to be competition with Windows-based appliances. Take, for instance, the aforementioned Indrema box. Sure, this will be a great gaming box, but now it has to compete with the X-Box.

    Linux on the PC platform will probably come along even more quickly than these new appliances, because it is much easier for someone to install Linux on their home PC, get support from all over the internet, and have a fully functioning Linux box than it is to develop the idea, hardware, and software for a Linux appliance. Plus, who knows what Microsoft is going to squeeze Windows onto. Without the help of something special, Linux is still going to take a backseat to Microsoft.
  • Hit the wrong key last time .. ;-)

    Eagle wireless has a linux appliance like idrema,
    but it is out already. See: www.eglw.com/english/new.html

    It's pretty sleek. Even better, they will be integrating their wireless dsl with it that gives 11Mbs bandwidth!

    See: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/000211/tx_eagle_w_1.html

  • First post?

    First post. Or do not first post. There is no "first post?"!

  • And I'm the guy that meta-moderated your shitty moderation. What's the point of admitting that you moderated a comment if you post AC? Moderating something "troll" has nothing to do with the correctness of an arguement. Just because you don't agree with what someone has to say doesn't mean that you should be moderating down someone's opinion. I personally don't care if I get modded down cuz I gots plenty of karma to spare.

    Which ever of you /. guys that came up with meta-moderation, my hat's off to you. This is one of several times that I've had the opportunity to keep a post up where it belongs regardless of opinion.

    Usless attempt to stay ontopic:

    I think that Linux appliances are cool...
  • Both the TiVo and i-Opener seem to appeal to the slashdot crowd, which in the latter case, seems to be a bad sign for retailers.

    I would have to object that it's a bad thing. VCR's, as an example, would likely have been adopted by the 80s equivalent of /. readers before anyone else, even at their exorbitant prices. One of the great things about a capitalist system is that the early adopters subsidize the cost of the first few thousand units, and then the price comes down for the rest of us. The point is not that /. itself provides a market, but that it provides enough people with lots of disposable income to pay for the first units, and enables the manufacturer to make more at a reasonable price and take over the world.

    Walt
  • Would it not let you boot to single user mode or "$telinit 1"?
  • Wow, It continues to suprise me on the versatility of linux. I would have thought that a UNIX base would be too bulky for appliance like things. In the past we have seen very specific hardware for appliances, now that hardware is becoming more general (Like a computer) and therefore the software is becoming more normal OS like. The reason I'm suprised is that they can do that and still make a profitable product, with all that overhead.

    -- Moondog
  • dunno, i know a few very nice chicks that like the geek aspect =), or else they just like the fact that i'm free techsupport. whatever. =)

  • Re:But is it because Linux is superior? (Score:3)

    by stripes ( 3681 ) on Sunday March 26, 2000 @06:52AM (#1171165) Homepage Journal
    Because Linux is divided into a kernel and discrete components, such as the C library, bash, command line utilities, etc., which can be easily separated and replaced with something else.

    And BSD is divided into a kernel (made of descrete components), and a user land made of descrete components like the C library, various shells, command line utilities, etc., which can be easily replaced with other things.

    Try again. Neither Linux nor BSD has an advantage in this area.

    With *BSD, the OS distribution gives strong incentive to use what is provided in /usr/src and /usr/ports, to the exclusion of software not provided.

    Well, yes FreeBSD at least provides a strong incentave to use what is provided, namely making it dirt simple to use that stuff. It doesn't make it any harder to use non-ports stuff then any other Unixlike OS. You can even use the FreeBSD package manager (which allows dependnecy tracking, and easy uninstall) with non-ports software. Of corse if you did, it would be a tiny step to make it "ports software" (namely a few text files).

    But I have installed a lot of non-ports stuff on my FreeBSD box (mostly snapshots of newer-the-ports stuff). I don't see how it diffres from installing a "too-new-to-be-RPMed" package in Red Hat.

    I would say no advantage between Linux or BSD in this area.

    You're always going to have source code for something hanging around, and probably not something you intended to keep, and certainly not tarred and gzipped!

    Yes, unless you master the mystical "rm" command, you will still have the tarballs after you "make clean" (rm /usr/ports/distfiles/* works pretty good). I do wonder why there isn't a cron job to clean old files out of /usr/ports/distfiles, but this is definitly someting almost anyone ought to be able to do on their own if they wish.

    To build an embedded Linux operating system, all you need to do is build a Linux kernel, build a libc (e.g. glibc2 or newlib, and build whatever other tools you need, then combine them into a nice binary distribution. Even without a package mangler.
    I can't even begin to conceive of how one would build such a thing with *BSD without seriously disturbing the OS installation hosting the build process. I'm sure it could be done, but if it were that easy, someone would have done it by now.

    I think the general thery under BSD would be to compile a kernel, libc, and the other tools you need, put them in in a binary distrubution (see the "mfsroot" tools). Even without the package manager, if it is offensave or useless to you.

    For examples look at PicoBSD, the 1.44MB distribution [freebsd.org], or maybe at the BSD in Juniper's M-series $100k+ routers, or at the BSD in Ascend's GRF routers. Or IBM's ePIPE, or Whissle's InterJet. Or, hell, the X-Terminals I built in 1992.

    Again, Linux and BSD are pretty much the same in this regard.

    Further, Linux is open source and open development. Anybody can participate. BSD is far less open source, and far less open development. Ever tried to submit a patch to a *BSD kernel? Ha, good luck. There should be no question as to why the BSD kernel keeps forking.

    I don't see any reason why BSD is less "open source". It is "less GPL", and arguments can be made about whether that is good or bad. But it fits ESR's Open source Definition. I've had patches accepted by various BSD groups. I've had them rejected as well, and a better fix was taken in their place. I havn't made any Linux patches, but I hope (and expect!) the result would be the same, my well-written patches would be accepted, and my flimsy half-baked hacks would be rejected, and maybe done better by someone else.

    As for the forking, I remain unconvinced that Red Hat, SUSE, Debian, Slackware, Corel, Mandrake, Trustix, Storm and Yellow Dog are really signifigantly more similar then FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD. Yes, all the linuxes are a kernel that Linux blessed, plus (sometimes) patches, and diffrent config options. But the userlands are all diffrent. Just like the BSD userlands. And as far as portability goes that is about as bad. Which is to say, a slightly-more-then-minor problem for source shipped programs, but not a major huge super big showstopper problem (in either BSD or Linux!)

    Even if convinced, I'm not sure it would be a wholey good thing. If userland devirsity is a good thing, why is not a little kernel diversity? I really enjoy having multi-CPU support in FreeBSD. On the other hand, when I want a really secure system, I appreciate Theo's stance that the multi-CPU stuff hasn't been around long enough to be sure there are no security-related race conditions in it.

    Here we have the first non-tie. BSD is better if you are intrested in deversity at all levels. Linux is better if you want basically the same kernel everwhere, but don't care about the userland being quite so similar.

    As for Linux vs. BSD, BSD advocates will say that it is technically superior in many areas, and be correct. However, Linux is far superior in at least one aspect: the manner in which it is developed. I expect BSD to be left in the dust in all technical areas that matter within a very short time, unless they can get their act together

    Well, Linux does have Linus to keep everyone roughly on track. And that is a major big deal. BSD has nobody with the same leadership skills, who has stepped into the same sort of role.

    On the other hand I wouldn't exactly say BSD has been left in the dust so far, and Linux has been around, what, nearly 10 years now?

    Linux has gotten some really cool stuff recently (XFS, Riserfs being the most intresting), but BSD hasn't exactly been sitting still (look at the FFS soft update code, and the work-in-progress version of FFS that can do NetApp style snapshots, and live-filesystem-fscks). Linux seems to have gotten quite a leg up in fine-grained SMP, but with the recent Walnet Creak/FreeBSD/BSDI annoncment, I expect BSD can "catch up". After all Paul Borman allready did fine grain locking in Cray's TCP/IP stack, how hard could doing it twice be? :-)

    My summary for this one would be "answer unclear, try agian next year". But I accept diffrent peple could judge this diffrently.

    Foo. There went all my karma.

    Why? It conforms to slashdot's bias. And was well written. I just happen to think it was also wrong. Now as to what happes to my karma...

    P.S. you did forget to mention uLinux, the Linux that can run on non-MMU devices. I can see that being a big advantage in the embeded market. It's not something I would enjoy using, but still, it's a big deal if you can leave out a MMU and save $3 on a box that has a $50 price tag...

    P.P.S. you'll note I didn't show anywhere I thought BSD was clearly better then Linux. That's because I'm not really sure there are any. There might be. There might not be. Or more to the point, each have their strengths, and weeknesses, and depending on what you need, one or the other might be better. You need to look close to decide, there is no easy answer (other then "not NT"...there, can I keep my karma? I bashed Microsoft)

  • Appliance isn't really the right word (Score:3)

    by enkidu ( 13673 ) on Saturday March 25, 2000 @08:37PM (#1171166) Homepage Journal
    I don't know about other people but when I think appliance I think "something I use to make toast". Not "something I use for programming/web access/data storage/music/security/document creation etc." Linux's strong point isn't simplicity/web surfing/email. Linux's strong points are, IMHO, openness, power to do complex computation tasks, ease of programming simple to complex algorithms, stability and flexibility. Of these characteristics only stability seems to required by the market would want for a computing "appliance".

    Of course, WinCE (or whatever it's called now) has even fewer redeeming features. But for use as an appliance, I think the PalmOS has much more going for it than the combination of Linux+X+Gnu+KDE/GNOME (which would be the minimum of what you would need).



    There is no trap so deadly as the trap you set for yourself

  • Re:But is it because Linux is superior? (Score:3)

    by auntfloyd ( 18527 ) on Saturday March 25, 2000 @08:57PM (#1171167) Journal

    Or merely cheap? If the latter, why not use Free/Net/OpenBSD?

    It's all about infrastructure. Given that there are millions more Linux users than any of the others (or at least the last I knew; if someone else has figures it would be nice), it makes sense to use Linux. There are thousands of developers who are already familiar with writing code in and for Linux. Granted, you might not be able to port your favorite apps to an MP3 player, but more is definately better in this case.

    Any Linux-based system gets free advertising in web sites frequented by people who would likely buy them (this article is proof of that).


    It's kind of hard to argue against that :)

    And companies know that having a Linux product, no matter how proprietary the hardware, API, etc might be, means a chance at a huge IPO.

    Well, the fact that they use Linux means that it will be 'open', even if only in a small way. And that might very well be considered a benefit (to users and programmers) over BSD (which would not guarantee open source).

    Maybe if the Yoppy has a successful launch things will change. I know it would change my impressions.

    It certainly looks cool, but the there are enough palmtops out there already. It's hard to judge how well it will do with people who don't already use Linux.

    ~~~~~~~~~
    auntfloyd

  • Linux Power Tools (Score:3)

    by roman_mir ( 125474 ) on Saturday March 25, 2000 @09:15PM (#1171168) Homepage Journal
    Well, I always wanted to have my own Linux powered Chain Saw

    Imagine the interface:
    #cut
    #head
    #hash
    #kill
    #man
    #split

  • easy of use should not be an issue (Score:3)

    by phUnBalanced ( 128965 ) on Saturday March 25, 2000 @08:27PM (#1171169) Homepage
    These devices need to be completely plug and play. Especially entertainment type devices. These need to be plugged in and turned on to work. Without that kind of ease of use, you can forget mainstream market. Make it as easy to setup as a receiver and you'll win customers.

  • But is it because Linux is superior? (Score:4)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 25, 2000 @08:26PM (#1171170)

    Or merely cheap? If the latter, why not use Free/Net/OpenBSD?

    My guess is the Linux == Big Bucks approach. Any Linux-based system gets free advertising in web sites frequented by people who would likely buy them (this article is proof of that). And companies know that having a Linux product, no matter how proprietary the hardware, API, etc might be, means a chance at a huge IPO.

    Sorry guys. I'm not buying it. Have there been any consumer device running Linux that have sold well to non-Linux users? Both the TiVo and i-Opener seem to appeal to the slashdot crowd, which in the latter case, seems to be a bad sign for retailers. I just don't think that Slashdot readers can make up enough of a market to justify all this hype. Maybe if the Yoppy has a successful launch things will change. I know it would change my impressions.

  • the future of Linux appliances (Score:4)

    by RJ11 ( 17321 ) <serge@guanotronic.com> on Saturday March 25, 2000 @08:14PM (#1171171) Homepage
    Well let's just say I'd rather have my toilet kernel panic than have my car get a general protection fault.

  • Owning the PIA (Score:4)

    by miracle69 ( 34841 ) on Sunday March 26, 2000 @06:08AM (#1171172)
    I purchased a PIA a while back when they were still $350. It pretty much had exactly what I wanted for a living-room machine. It was bare bones, cheap, and had linux installed. Plus, the pic looked cool.

    I'm currently happy with it - but wasn't when I opened the box...

    The box is cube shaped - something not quite expected from the pics. This isn't a bad thing in my situation, because it sits in my living room, and most people think it is a subwoofer. So, that's a plus.

    I pulled it out of the box and plugged it in. It uses Debian - Potato that they've modified a bit. The install instructions tell you how to plug everything in and log in - using username tux and a password which I don't remember. (Instructions are gone) Nowhere can the root password be found. For a newbie, this probably isn't a problem, but I personally didn't like the idea that 1) the company I purchased this machine from knew the only user name and password, and 2) I didn't have root to amend this situation.

    But the box brought up a nice KDE desktop and it looked like anyone with a bit of computer experience (setting up dial-up networking under windows) could get on line relatively easily. I ordered mine with the ethernet card, and there were no instructions on how to hook the machine up to a local ethernet - so this option probably isn't for newbies.

    What to do? Well, I put in a floppy and CD-ROM drive (both unneeded extras that aren't in the default shipping setup, and both of which I have extras laying around) and installed RH 6.1. This went fairly uneventful. The machine ran fine, but the 32mbs were just too little for me, so I put 64mb in there, and it's a nice living room desktop. Nothing fancy - just functional. MP3s, Internet, email.

    For $300, it's not a bad setup - if you can put a little work behind it.

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