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Linux Software

Dell to sell laptops with Linux preinstalled 240

Posted by HeUnique from the now-it's-official dept.
Now it's official. According to this story on C|Net, Dell is starting to sell notebooks with Linux preinstalled. The laptop models are the Inspiron 7500 and Latitude CPX models. The Latitude models will be available Feb. 4. Prices are the same as with Windows 9x preinstalled. Those models are certified by Linuxcare.
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Dell to Sell Laptops with Linux More

Dell to Sell Laptops with Linux

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  • I think the price should be lower, after all they won't have to pay MS for licenses. Although they might have to fork over some dough to LinuxCare. However, the support calls should be way fewer with the stability of Linux....


    #include "disclaim.h"
    "All the best people in life seem to like LINUX." - Steve Wozniak
  • it's *really* nice to see Linux getting recognition as a valid, at least quasi-mainstream operating system... it's about time! and it's great that it's coming from a big-name company like Dell instead of some small, obscure place...

  • Where is the extra money going? (Score:5)

    by EricWright ( 16803 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2000 @06:19AM (#1315171) Journal
    I want to know what is happening to the "extra money" that is no longer a Microsoft tax? Is Dell keeping it as a surcharge for installing linux? Do I get a copy of Windows anyway? Do I get the RH package complete with 3(?) months of tech support?

    In short, where is my "extra" $100 going?

    Eric
  • Are they (we) still paying the Microsoft/Intel bundle tax? Can someone from Dell comment on this?

  • Inspirion 7500 as VMware machine? (Score:3)

    by rdl ( 4744 ) <ryan AT venona DOT com> on Tuesday February 01, 2000 @06:21AM (#1315177) Homepage
    Thanks, Dell! Thanks, Linuxcare!

    I've been looking at getting a loaded Inspirion
    7500 (512mb ram, 75gb disk, 650mhz pIII, 1400x1050
    screen!) as a primary development machine. The
    only thing I don't like is the pointing
    device, but I suppose I can carry an IBM clicky
    keyboard with trackpoint, too.

    Has anyone had any luck running VMware 2.0 beta
    on one of these beasts? I like to use vmware
    to do kernel hacking without losing my
    xmms and emacs buffers :) It's a lot less
    annoying to lose a VMware machine than a desktop
    to a kernel bug, and disks can be checkpointed.
    VMware the company says laptops are a bad idea,
    but the Inspirion 7500 is studlier than almost
    any desktop!

    Remember, these things are heavy :( 10 pounds
    configured, and *big*.
  • Isn't Linux considerably cheaper than Windows? Come on - it is GPLed! I can download the same thing for free. It can't possibly cost as much as that MS cr*p! Especially now that Dell does not toe the MS line wholly, one should expect the MS stuff to increase in price!

    I am pretty ambivalent about this. One of the chief joys of Linux is getting it up slowly, piece by piece on the laptop. Watch it grow. Where's the pleasure in getting a pre-installed system?

    OTOH, this means that the hardware works. I could ditch the distro and put Debian on it, without worrying about the hardware not being supported.

  • Pricing (Score:5)

    by EvlG ( 24576 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2000 @06:22AM (#1315180)
    A few /.ers have complained that the price is the same for Win9X installed. I think this makes a lot of sense, particularly if the computer is certified by Linuxcare.

    As anyone who has dealt with Linux on laptops already knows well, hardware support isn't quite as easy as on a desktop machine. You're stuck with the hardware you have, unlike a desktop where you can always swap it out for something compatible. And unless another Linux user has the same hardware (or in some cases) the same exact model, you can be SOL.

    Having a machine certified can't be cheap; with Windows you sort of get that by default when your license the OS. Microsoft has already taken the opportunity to certify hardware for use with Windows (think certified drivers). That, combined with the fact that Dell will be using a commercial distribution, would easily account for the cost of the OS for a Linux laptop.

    Kudos to tell for taking steps; now if only we could get VA to bring back their models.
  • However, the support calls should be way fewer with the stability of Linux....

    Yeah, but the interface is more confusing for most people, so it probably comes out even.

  • USB? (Score:3)

    by sql*kitten ( 1359 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2000 @06:22AM (#1315182)
    Does anyone know what Dell are doing to address things like USB and IrDA support from Linux? Will they merge their drivers into commercial distributions? Will they subsequently only work on Dell equipment?

    Thanks!

  • AFAIK Redhat charges OEM's around $40 for their distro. That's about what Dell pays for Windows, hence the equality.

    And as far as support calls go, I'm sure they get huge amounts more of calls from people with simple questions about their computer and applications rather than because the whole operating system crashed.

    Linux's stability does nothing to address poor developers and dumb users, except people just won't need to restart their machines as often.
  • Now I can get a laptop with linux supported by an OEM. Now when I have to do something for the boss I can take around laptop and show people on the go how awsome Linux is (And it is supported by Dell!) This will be a big boon for Linux in the corporation.

  • Even though the article seem to infer it, PCCard (pcmcia) modems could still be a winmodem. I have a dell cpx that shipped with a 3com Megahertz 56k WinModem PC Card model 3cxm356. I don't know why they just don't build them into the system.. (I hate the stupid dongle)
  • In short, where is my "extra" $100 going?

    First, I'm sure Dell doesn't pay near $100 for Win9x licenses.

    Second, I'm sure that the tech support cost if where the difference goes.

    I guess support really is the only place to make money with free software...


  • I'm glad to see that Dell avoided the problem that plagued IBM's Linux laptops by including a real modem in their Linux laptops. The cost of the modem may partly explain why Dell's Linux laptop costs the same as one with Windoze installed, but the extra cost of the modem can't equal the MS licensing fee for Windoze, so it's not the whole story.
  • Every time I hear that Dell is selling anything with Linux preinstalled I can't help but point out that you are still paying the Microsoft tax. Dell's computers with Linux pre-installed cost at least as much, if not more, then the ones with Windows. Besides, all the Dell's ads I've seen are hyping Windows. They do not actively promote Linux. They just have it somewhere on their web site.
    No, Dell will never change. They will forever be Intel's and Micro$oft's bitch. Better buy stuff from a company that truely supports Linux.
    ___
  • Linux vs. AMD are two completely different arguments. AMD is direct comparable to Intel, rather than being a completely different beast as Linux is from Windows. Besides that, Intel was found to not be a monoploy, so they can still feel free to twist arms in regards to who uses which chips, where Microsoft has to grin and bear it until it finds out what it's future holds.

    If intel's chip shortages last much past the end of this month, though, despite their immense loyalty, Dell may end up having great reason to investigate AMD processors. The question would be if AMD could produce enough parts for them. If they're going to be short either way, might as well stick with Intel.
  • Ever see a laptop with an AMD chip? they use the same chip in laptops as whats used in desktops. Gets very HOT! very quick.
  • I really don't see the huge significance of having linux pre-installed. It is a step for the community to see some recognition, but to get it preinstalled you have to buy a specific model and choose to have linux put on it. Whereas if you just buy any laptop you want, you can just as easily make a choice later to put linux, or perhaps a multi-boot setup on your system. Both are choices. One just gets more publicity.
    Plus, I personally would not want someone else to install linux on my machine for me. Installing it yourself is half the fun, and there's no way I would want a default installation. I don't think anyone else who would be informed enough to know which models to buy with linux installed on them would want a default installation either.

    Linux has always been about customization, and the ability to do things for yourself. I do not see how this is such a leap ahead.

    //Phizzy
  • I'll tell you where it's going.

    It's going straight to Dell's losses from not being able to sell enough Intel machines. :)
  • Most laptops these days have built-in modems, and most are winmodems. What's the deal with these Dell laptops when it comes to modems?
  • However, the support calls should be way fewer with the stability of Linux....

    If only! I agree it's more stable but newbies are bad enough at getting the hang of the Windows GUI (sometimes even so called windows power users make me sick with the way they use their mouse+keyboard).

    Imagine them struggling with GNOME/KDE/[DOPus :-)] and asking asking stupid questions every five minutes on the phone.

    Oh that's it. If they're on premium charges for the Tech Support i'm buying loadsa their shares now !:)
  • I bought a Latitude CPX in November. At that time, getting the machine with no OS was the same cost as Win 95 or 98. NT cost extra.

  • Re:FINALLY! But why still paying the MS-tax? (Score:4)

    by sarcastro ( 14549 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2000 @06:29AM (#1315202) Homepage

    >However, the support calls should be way fewer with the stability of Linux....

    MY GOD, MAN! have you ever worked tech support? how many of the calls to tech support do you think involve actual real problems? if the linuxcare support dell offers is free like their normal tech support, then people will abuse it just the same.
  • so it's only avalible in the 400+ employee size buisness section. no options as to memory, processor, video, or screen size. it's nice, yes but why? is there some bizare arcitecture that dell uses for 600mhz machines? some propriatary memory access they couldn't get to work with anything other than 128M of ram? whats wrong with neomagic video? why only a 4 meg card?
    i hope they sell a million of them. i also hope they will support lots more hardware - one size fits all is not exactly acceptable to me, or the community at large...
  • I tried to check on the dell website and right now they are offering only Windows OS on any of their laptops.
    Well, it was said that they will be offering Linux based laptops only starting with 4 Feb. However I would have expected to see at least a note or a preview or something...
    Furthermore, as far as I can see for the Inspiron 7500 model the modem is not an Winmodem. So I guess that since the hardware is the same for both Linux and Windows based systems the price should be smaller for the Linux Laptop. Do I smell some fear that Microsoft will have something to say if they sell cheaper the Linux laptop ? Or perhaps they're just trying to make some extra bucks out of this ?
  • Perens is still on-target with that one.
    --
  • > Do those things come with real modems or Winmodems?

    I just bought one in November and saved significant money by buying all the extras (ethernet card, modem, carrying case) from 3rd parties.
  • Microsoft's licensing agreement appears to be per product line. If this is the case, all Dell has to do is re-label a line of their machines and sell them as Linux-only, thus exempting them from the Microsoft tax. Expect this as soon as another manufacturer gets into the arena, making it competitive.
    --
  • You are correct AMD != Linux, but I was merely suggesting that Dell made a great move going towards Linux, but they are reluctant to try AMD, which might possibly hurt them more than already has.

    Anyone who says, such as Dell himself, that this is a short term problem is wrong.

    Dell has had trouble with Intel for the past 12 months from what I've been reading

    The AMD Athlon blows away the PIII or Coppermine.

  • on the 7500 the integrated modem is a winmodem, and they offer various pcmcia modems, some win, some hardware, and as for the comment about the dongle, i believe they still offer a 3-com x-jack pc card modem.
  • Look at my above comment, sorry got in the wrong parent. Yikes that sounds bad! :)

  • So, essentially, Microsoft is making money off of Linux. How clever is that?

    As Linux and other non-MS OSs are becoming the OS of choice we can hope to see the MS tax disappear. Meanwhile, I'm glad to be able to buy a Linux installed laptop.

    Perhaps, if enough of these things are sold, we can get together some sort of class action against MS for charging us for something we never ordered.
    "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong."

  • However, the corporate world will be. Consider the number of businesses that have sales reps running around with the proverbial laptop under arm, ready to take on any customer quote. This direction will make Corp IS more comfortable in giving Linux power to the non-tech. Now, all we need are the various CRMS (customer relationship management software) things to move to Linux. At a former company, they are _still_ in the process of getting the CRMS to NT, and I doubt they are in any hurry to port it again. So Dell is doing _A Good Thing_, even if it macht nichts to the current Linux user. Dave McAllister

  • I they might be selling a real (i.e. not free) version of RedHat with each laptop.

    It makes sense:

    • It sells Redhat Linux (which is what RH is in the business for)
    • It helps fund the tech support with LinuxCare.
    • It shows that Linux continues to be a commercially marketable commodity: more drivers and clout.
    • It helps all those poor souls who weren't late buying Redhat and LinuxCare stock. (grumble) :)

    I just wish this had happened about the time I bought my Inspiron 3200. I would prefer to line Redhat's pockets vs. Microsoft's. We're merrily spec'ing Redhat servers from Dell as I type this.

  • "Even though the article seem to infer it, PCCard (pcmcia) modems could still be a winmodem."

    Two thoughts:
    1. Dell has figured out a way to make Linux play with Winmodems (hw/sw). This is an immeasureably Good Thing(TM), for obvious reasons...
    2. The PC Card (I still prefer PCMCIA; rolls off the tongue better) is actually not a Winmodem. This is what the article seems to imply (citing IBM's troubles with Winmodems).

    Either way, this is a Good Thing for Dell and us.


    Here's my [redrival.com] copy of DeCSS. Where's yours?
  • So what if it's GPL'ed. That doesn't stop me from charging $10,000 for it. So you're getting a discount :)

    Perhaps Dell is buying the dist from somewhere, complete with manuals and media to send you? Or support?

    Who knows. But until you know exactly what you are getting and what Dell is getting, bitching that Linux is free/Microsoft Tax is just being blind.
  • Mine works fine with Linux. It's not as bulky or heavy as the i7500 and the bright, beautiful, perfect display maxes out at 1024x768, but aside from some apmd suspend/standby/resume issues that I have not spent any time on, it is working just fine. The 433MHz Celery is plenty fast(blows the socks off of the 300MHz Gateway PII that I have at work, but then so does the 350MHz K6-2 at home!?!?). Under w98 I do Visual Cafe/Java applets and under RH6.1 I do the server/mysql side.

    Plus, it's a great portable mp3 jukebox. The 12G drive has lots of space and I don't have to lug CDs over to my pal's house any more. I just plug in an adaptor cable to his aux inputs, bring up xmms and play random from ~70 CDs with plenty of room for more.
  • I'd laugh my pants off if the reason behind the laptop having the same price with Linux as opposed to Windows is if MS have gone the same way as Be and are giving the OS away for free (as in beer, not speech, of course)

    It's basically free anyway, I certainly haven't paid for any MS software :-) (I even got money off my computer when I bought it by asking that Win95 NOT be installed) and I've never had trouble picking up the only other MS stuff that's of any use (Word)

    That reminds to bring those VB and VC++ lying about here home! Actually no, I've taken the Xmms source instead, see if I can help the cause, so to speak
  • Dell pays nothing like even "normal" OEM prices for Windows.

    The money saved from not paying MS a few bucks is probably being used to recoup the outlay for adding support [testing, support engineer training etc.]
  • > and it's great that it's coming from a big-name > company like Dell instead of some small, > obscure place... A small obscure place? You mean like IBM? ... Ami.

  • Hard to find the Linux boxes on Dell's web site (Score:3)

    by ibis ( 16191 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2000 @06:39AM (#1315225) Homepage
    It used to be that Dell had a single page with links to all for their systems that you can get with Linux, but when they redesigned their site, it disappeared.

    If you would like an easier way to find Dell computers with Linux pre-installed, please visit MetaSystema.org, where they are all laid out on one page:

    www.metasystema.org/dell.mhtml [metasystema.org]

  • What extra $100 (Score:4)

    by twit ( 60210 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2000 @06:40AM (#1315226) Homepage
    Dell pays between fifteen and twenty dollars a pop for a Windows license (software only, not support). Don't confuse a license as sold to a hardware vendor and one sold as retail; they're entirely different, both in what they cost and what you get.

    --
  • ...was that it had an 'option' for no modem. I already had pcmcia ethernet and dialup modem cards so why pay for another, especially if it only will work under winXX? I traded the modem for more RAM.

    The other was simply because the 3700 is smaller, and lighter. If I need a big screen that bad, I can hook it up to a monitor.
  • Last I knew, Microsoft had either abandoned per-processor licenses or been forced to. Instead they enforce "per-model" licenses. So long as Dell ships only Windows on a given *MODEL* of computer, they get the discount. Since the Linux version will presumably be a different part number, they in all likely hood are NOT paying for windows on those machines. However, if you want to dual-boot and have it installed that way from dell, it'd probably be cheaper for you to buy a windows laptop and install Linux on it, because Windows will cost a bit more to be installed on the Linux model than they pay across the rest of their lines.
  • This could be easy. Except for maybe the modem, the hardware in the Win98 machine will be the same in the linux machine. You're going to have to go get a PCMCIA modem for the linux machine anyways, so no skin off your back. So, just buy the win98 machine, ask for your $100 back because you don't want Windows pre-installed, then go home and pop on your favorite distro. You know it works already, you just don't want to pay their surcharge for certification and licensing with RedHat.

  • Every 2-3 months Slashdot posts a story saying "Linux [laptops|desktops|servers] available from Dell". And every time we have a huge discussion with the following threads:

    a) Why does it cost the same as the MS-taxed version?
    b) Now we've hit the big time
    c) I'm going to buy from them because they support Linux
    d) I'm NOT going to buy from them because they DON'T support Linux.
    etc, etc, etc

    Finally, someone goes to the Dell site and finds out that:

    a) It was just a rumor OR
    b) It only applies in another country OR
    c) They are really selling Linux "certified" machines, but not with Linux installed OR
    d) You can only buy them with one config (one screen size, on HD size, etc) OR
    e) You can only buy them in lots of 100 and only if you are a business customer.
    etc, etc, etc

    If Slashdot is going to continue to shill for Dell's crappy deals, can we at least have the stories put in their own category so that I can filter them out?
    --
    Java banners:
    Bad for users because Java kills Netscape
  • I can't remember what vendor I saw this from (I really wish I could) but at one point there was an option of getting no OS pre-installed, and there was an $89/$99 (again, can't remember exactly) discount if Windows was not installed. This is what I'm talking about.

    I know Dell doesn't pay $100/machine for WinXX but I seriously doubt they pass on the license at no markup. Everything that is sold is marked up by every middleman between the manufacturer and the end consumer.

    Eric
  • The 7500 is already available, although Dell makes it hard to find the Linux boxes on their web site.

    This site has a direct link to all of the Dell machines available with Linux:

    www.metasystema.org/dell.mhtml [metasystema.org]
  • ...is the dual pointing device setup. It has both the trackpad and two buttons for it near the edge, and the eraserhead trackpointer in the keyboard with two buttons for it right below the spacebar. It's much better than the touchpad when typing. The only drawback is when emulating three buttons/center button with a double button click is pretty difficult and unreliable using the two small buttons under the spacebar.

    After some other /. discussions, I've been investigating VMWare although without much vigor. It is looking more and more interesting...
  • Yes and no.

    Linux has very low overhead of floating point ops. Windows does not.

    As a result at same frequency, on equivalent mainboards it usually runs better with AMD than with Intel. I mean casual apps, not something like Seti@Home of course ;-)

    So asking the question of AMD as long as they preload something different from Win is a valid question.

    It is only slightly OT.
  • Instead of complaining about WinModems, why hasn't some Linux developer written a driver for them? Then this issue would be solved once and for all. WinModems are a bit cheaper than real modems, and I'm sure most people can spare teh processor cycles to run them.
  • I'm using an almost identical system right now (slower CPU and DVD to reduce battery consumption and 18 GB drive (The 75 is only if you have no battery or other drive installed so you can use all three bays)). Runs linux great, and the higher resolution is nice. Dell has had a website up with drivers for the screen, sound, ethernet card, modem.

    The pointing device is an option. They can have either a joystick thingy or a pad. In fact I have a pad, but looking at the keyboard I can see the hardware for the joystick, so it may support both at the same time.

    The only advice is to get the global modem, only use the Dell drivers for X if the ones on the internet don't work, and the newer ethernet cards need to have a few lines added to the PCMCIA config file (email me if you need them). A few hours after doing all that I had it doing everything I needed.

  • Supply and demand (Score:5)

    by Smack ( 977 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2000 @06:49AM (#1315238) Homepage
    Geez, didn't any of you guys take economics?

    You seem to be arguing that a given reduction in costs to a retailer should result in the same reduction in the price to the consumer. That doesn't really make sense though. What incentive do they have to reduce the costs that way? If the consumer is willing to pay for the product, Dell can charge whatever they wish for it. Especially since they are one of the only major brands that provide Linux laptops -- that's why this is NEWS in the first place. Since the supply of Linux laptops is low, and the demand is presumably high, the retail price should actually be higher than that of a windows laptop, where the supply is quite high, and the demand is lower.

    Also here's a link to the Inspiron page at Dell:

    http://commerce.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.asp? order_code=890139&customer_id=04&keycode=6W300 [dell.com]

  • It all depends on wether you see the future of linux as beeing a wide user base or on smug superiority
    At some point the system has to cross over and becom mainstream. and that means selling it to people who dont spend all their time hacking directory structures and kernel files.
    we can all sit around and say how much better our system is than theirs. but unless it's sold pre-installed so the man in the street can play with it and sees that it works before he inevitably makes it fall over he'll always take the easy option of installing microsoft's product.
    We can shout about how good our product is as much as we like but without someone selling pre-installs we'll never get the home market.
  • Did anyone notice how a Linuxcare *partner* can make a big announcement like this without raising the ire of the SEC? I like the business sense of companies like this.

    I also like the *idea* behind Linuxcare because it allows for the big companies like Dell and Compaq to offer different distros and still have the same tech support. For Dell to be able to sell Linux in a corporate environment, they need solid tech support.
  • Sure, we've got Dell Linux laptops now, but how good are they? Nearly everyone I know who owns a laptop has had to return theirs at least twice to get fixed. Of the 2 who come to mind, one is a PC "novice" (but on the high end of that specturm) and the issues might be software, might be hardware, but I couldn't tell from his description. The other is fairly software-literate and has built a number of desktop systems - the problems were hardware.

    I'd love to have a laptop so I can hang out on the couch instead of at the desk, but it's not worth that kind of trouble.

  • now if only we could get VA to bring back their models.

    now if we could only get VA to drop their prices to compete w/Dell :)
  • Not if they want to be able to say they've got "Official Red Hat Linux installed", they can't. Red Hat's name is close to the only asset they've got. They don't give it away for free. Remember a few months back when they cracked down on all the people on Ebay selling Red Hat Linux CDs?
  • The default modem internal modem in the 7500 is a winmodem. I expect this to be ture of most of the Dell's as the 7500 is near the top of their line. Granted they told me this straight out when it was ordered and recommended the global modem for linux users. Works like a champ. The only easier laptop I've setup was the older Nec Versa's, but they weren't real reliable and the heat rash on my lap was never comfortable :-).
  • Will everybody please quit giving Dell the "cost of distro" excuse? All linux distros are free, which means that they only need to buy one 50$ cd, not one for each laptop. Yes, support costs something, but they need to support their Win laptops to, whetehr internally or w/ a 3rd party. Fuck all you gun-toting hip gangster wannabees - Tool
  • Most likely that vendor doesn't have a volume licensing deal and has to pay full retail.

    The extra ~$100 dollars is a service charge for finding the right hardware and installing the OS, not trivial for laptops in Linux (try picking up a random lappy and get Linux up on it).

    I would be curious to know how much extra service comes with the box, though.
  • > Ever see a laptop with an AMD chip?

    Nope. And I looked. I needed a Pentium III or equivalent laptop and all I could find were PIIIs. The Latitude CPX was by far the cheapest. Not that there are that many laptops with Pentium IIIs at all.
  • Isn't Linux considerably cheaper than Windows? Come on - it is GPLed! I can download the same thing for free. It can't possibly cost as much as that MS cr*p! Especially now that Dell does not toe the MS line wholly, one should expect the MS stuff to increase in price!

    There's a marketing strategy that Red Hat figured out long ago and Dell and others are figuring out now. If something is available for free, people will still pay for it if it comes in a shiny box. How many people do you think download RedHat? Isn't it easier to just press a button and pay $40.00 for a CD already burned for you? It is. So, suppose I have to pay $1900 Big SuperCool Laptop 10000 Millennium Edition with Windows on it, and $2000 for a Big SuperCool Laptop 10000 Millennium Edition with Debian installed, some tech support time, perhaps some nifty Linux docs using that "paper" stuff, and a Big Shiny Box. I'd gladly pay the extra $100. Why? Because downloading entire distributions is a pain, and I'm on a 100Mb Ethernet with a T3 gateway. I'd rather have someone else do it for me, and that's what the free software market is about: Hardware and services.

    </mindless rambling>

  • That's a bad link. Also, LinuxOne's news page [linuxone.net] does not have a single title making a reference to Linuxcare. Neither is there any reference in their IPO announcement, their Power Source announcement, or their Super Com announcement.
    --
  • "why hasn't some Linux developer written a driver for them?"

    Kinda tough to write code for something you can't get specs to.

    From the Winmodems are not Modems MiniFAQ [o2.net]: (third section on the page)
    3. But someone must have adapted or reverse-engineered one by now!
    Winmodem vendors will not release the source code. Without it, creating a software modem is a non-trivial programming task.

    There's a link [deja.com] to Deja.com on the subject. Appears the manufaturers don't want to release specs for the community until there's a demand. There isn't really a demand because people know that Winmodems don't work with Linux.

    Feel free to draw your own conclusions...

    Here's my [redrival.com] copy of DeCSS. Where's yours?
  • If you read the article carefully, it mentions that the notebooks have a working modem ... via a PC card. The extra price of the card probably nicely counter-balances the price of the MS license ;>
  • I'll be impressed when they allow you to pick Linux for the OS choice on ALL system configurations. We have been buying Dell 2300's with hot-swap RAID; now it's not on their product matrix- I have to take what they lame me with. Suffice it to say, we ended up picking a Penguin Computing HA server that does the work for about $1000-2000 less than the system that Dell does sell (sans Linux...)

    When Dell offers Linux on everything, I'll be truly impressed.
  • now if we could only get VA to drop their prices to compete w/Dell :)

    Interestingly enough, it seems as if VA doesn't WANT to compete head on with Dell, as evidenced by the interview [slashdot.org] with Larry Augustin (their CEO). They are apparently going for the tested, battle hardened market with all their products (which do not include laptops at this time, for perhaps this very reason - it's too hard to see an expensive laptop to someone in volume, no matter how good it is.)

    Maybe once they get their revenue up post-IPO they will reconsider the laptop market. I know I would feel more confident in purchasing a laptop from a company like VA who has a vested interest in Open Source, and Linux inparticular, than I would buying from Dell.

  • The extra money is also going towards development of drivers. When dell starts supporting linux on laptops, they can't just expect hardware support to be added by the Linux community before they start supporting it. This means that they will have to hire some developers, to work on drivers for example for their freaking nice complicated video cards. I have a Dell, my only way to have X on it, is to buy a commerical X server, because it is not yet supported. I think alot of those people whining should shut duh hell up, The problem was that Dell was not supporting linux before on their laptops, now they support it, and you start whining? A lot of you have no idea how important this is, there are lots of companies that look up to Dell, if Dell is supporting linux on their laptop, more companies are bound to pick this up.




  • why hasn't some Linux developer written a driver for them?

    If you can convince the WinModem chip makers to release programming information and specs, then I am sure a Linux developer or three will be glad to do a driver.

  • This is one of the FAQ on winmodems; if you do a search on Deja.com [deja.com], you'll find the answer. Or, check out this site [linmodems.org] or this one [o2.net].
  • The interface to the winmodems are most often not documented. Thus it would be a great deal of work to write a driver for it -- you would have to reverse engineer it, probably starting with looking at the binary-distribution-only windows driver.

    Some winmodems (Lucent I know, maybe others) have driver written by the manufacturer of the winmodem. But Lucent ( please correct me if I am wrong ) doesn't distribute the source to the driver, just a binary module that you can use with a particular kernel.

    This traps you. This is the reason not to buy secret, undocumented crap in the first place. If you get a lucent winmodem, then you are always dependent on lucent deciding it is worth their time to compile up the module for the version of linux you want to use. You are probably out of luck runing the Herd or *BSD or BeOS or whatever. *You don't really own it, because you can't do whatever you want with it.*

    When I plunk my money down and buy something, I want to *own* it. I don't want a pair of apron strings tying me back.

    The problem with a lot of the capitalists in the world today is that they don't have the balls to be real capitalists. These loosers can't just fscking *sell* something. They want to rent the right to use it for only one purpose. They want to construe a meaningless EULA to be a contract between you and them, in which you somehow decide to pay them to restrict your behavior. Heck, even in real estate, all the developers are itching to slap on their deed restrictions or get their subdivisions under some zoning or neighborhood association.

    Almost the only people doing real business any more are gun manufacturers. You have to respect someone who still has the balls to sell a piece of hardware and declare that whatever you do with it afterwards is your responsibilty.
  • Try configuring one Dell Inspiron 7500 on their web site with Linux (Weee! I'd sure like to have Linux 6.1 like those k-rad Dell guys got!), and one with Win98. Make sure you get the same warranty, the same amount of memory, harddrive space, modems, network cards and whatnot, and that you pick Office 2000 small business instead of the full version.

    You'll see that Dell will charge you $99 extra if you want Linux instead of Win98+Office2000 small business...
    %japh = (
    'name' => 'Niklas Nordebo', 'mail' => 'niklas@' . 'nordebo.com',
    'work' => 'www.sonox.com', 'phone' => '+46-708-405095'
  • > But look around - there are AMD laptops out there...

    Athlon? I got the machine because I needed one for running Dragon NaturallySpeaking which is optimized for a Pentium III or Athlon. I never saw an Athlon on a laptop.
  • as much as I like supporting Open Source, I like supporting "not" Open Sourcing my Wallet. If I am going to pay $500+ less for a machine from Dell (which is going to have the same shit as VA), then I am going to go w/the cheaper buy. In most cases, a computer is a computer no matter who is selling it. If LinuxCare certified it, I can trust them enough to say it is ok enough to use.


    I agree; upon re-reading the comment you responded to, I realized I was not quite clear in what I was saying.

    According to the interview, VA has focused on the market for an extremely reliable, "hard-core" type of machine. You can get away with this in the desktop market, whereas you cannot in the laptop market.

    For example, assume the cost to evaluate and certify your configuration is the same for a desktop or a laptop. The difference then, must come from the parts themselves. Better quality and more reliable desktop parts carry a permium, but that premium is likely quite a bit less than that carried by laptop parts. It costs more to build smaller parts anyways (that's why typical laptop configuartions can cost almost twice as much as their desktop counterparts.) Add in the fact that you want a better quality part, and the premium has jumped quite a bit. Now you've priced yourself right out of the market.

    And theres the problem; VA can't compete in the Linux market since they want to focus on the "hard-core" sort of PC. Nobody wants to pay $5000 for a laptop, even if it has 32-day uptimes :)

  • Re:I'm not that impressed. (Score:3)

    by Pike ( 52876 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2000 @07:35AM (#1315278) Journal
    I'm in the market for a laptop right now, and I know it would sure reduce the effort I have to go to in researching which laptops use quality, linux-compatible hardware. If a company offers their laptop with Linux preinstalled, that gives me good assurance that the hardware works with Linux.

    Most companies do not even tell you what network card, video chipset or sound chipset they use, so it's off to the Internet to see if there are any testimonials by other Linux'ers on that particular model. I'm glad Dell is making things easier for us and I hope other companies follow suit.
  • Cool. Please add those laptops to your site when they become available. :)
  • Going to Linux, and they won't go with AMD chips? Tsk, tsk, tsk.

    I don't know about anyone else, but I'm starting to tire of the weird rallying behind anything that's not "mainstream." Any CPU thread is now filled with "Athlon rocks!" posts, because Intel is considered the bad guy. Any video card thread is flooded with "GeForce rocks!" posts, because 3dfx is evil.

    The problem with both the Athlon and the Pentium II and III chips (and the GeForce, and anything else from 3dfx or Nvidia) is that they're huge suckers of power. Incremental improvements in speed are not nearly as useful to most anyone as would be drastically lower power consumption.
  • Lucent has released a binary only LTWinmodem module for x86 RH6.1 kernels(it appears to be RH specific last I heard, only tested/working with stock RH kernels) and PCTel is shipping a LinModem, ie: a variant of their HSP PCI winmodem chip with linux drivers to manufacturers only. go to http://www.linmodems.org for more info.
  • >well..they only have to buy *one* copy of RH Linux.. they can legally put that copy one a zillion friggin dell laptops.

    Yes, they can. But then who is going to provide the end user support. By having individually licensed copies on each computer, RedHat or LinuxCare or whoever is providing the support for the OS, not DELL. Think about it. This is the way Redhat and all the other distribution make money....not by selling the OS, but by providing support for it after you buy it!
  • I've literally worn the paint off my IBM ThinkPad's palm rests and have never had a single day of hardware problems (Windows problems I've had aplenty).

    Our company has several IBM TPs, and the only problem we've had was when the boss dropped his running TP600E onto a concrete floor and had to replace the hard disk.

    There's a huge quality difference between cheap laptops like WinBooks and IBMS. For one thing I don't scorch my hands on the palm rest. But the IBMs seem much faster, and more reliable.

    I expect the Dell laptops are of similar quality.

    Linux on a quality laptop would be like a dream come true, since I can count on two or three times a year having to sacrifice a day or two to fussing with balky Windows. Linux is more highly modular, and thus more consistent. Once I have a Linux machine configured just so, the job is done. Once I have a Windows machine configured just so, I can count on having to do it over again sooner or later.

  • Slashdot folks don't want laptop Linux support? (Score:4)

    by JoeBuck ( 7947 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2000 @07:50AM (#1315294) Homepage

    Let's say that I'm a company that sells laptops, and I'm considering supporting Linux. I hear that Dell's going down this road, so I check in to Slashdot to assess the community reaction. What would I conclude?

    For one, it appears that the community expects the work to be done for no money. They scream because the machine isn't cheaper with Linux on it, even though the amount of work to be done to get Linux to work decently with laptops is considerable, far more than with desktops, and support costs can be expected to be higher (simply because there are far fewer experts on Linux-laptop issues than for Windows-laptop issues).

    Second, the community screams because support for all platforms isn't instantly available, even though many laptop components don't have Linux drivers present.

    So, it would appear that neither profit nor good will is available by doing Linux support for laptops. The users don't want to pay for it, and they'll hate you anyway.

  • I think something that us nerd type people forget every now and then is that the majority of people in the world are not nerds. Some of them are enourmously stupid. Since Linux has been moving more and more into the mainstream and more and more onto the Average Joe Desktop (where, IMO, I really think it will fail) more non-sysadmins -programmer, -kernel hackers, -experimenters will be using this stuff. Now ask yourself if someone who wants pretty Gnome apps with Enlightenment is going to want to sit around for three hours using apt-get to install his distro? For you and me, we would definately see advantages to this method, but remember, Dell's only concern is selling computers, and average folks will buy these because Dell has made it easy for them.
  • The discount is only partly for the Windows license; it's also the per-machine cost of Dell's (or whoever's) software support, which has a very good reputation. This probably runs at well over a hundred bucks, but is worth it in relationship-building for Dell.

    Dell also sells directly to consumer (in effect, Dell is its own distribution and retail arm), so the markups are reduced. Not eliminated: the retail arm doesn't run for free, but reduced.

    --

  • $upport Co$ts (Score:3)

    by Duxup ( 72775 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2000 @08:07AM (#1315306) Homepage
    I once worked for a large PC manuf (gord help me) and I to am a bit shocked at people feel that the systems should be cheaper. You also have to consider support costs to the company. They either have to hire and train their own employees or outsource the support, either way that's very costly to start from scratch.
  • I once worked for a large PC manuf (gord help me) and I to am a bit shocked at people feel that the systems should be cheaper. You also have to consider support costs to the company. They either have to hire and train their own employees or outsource the support, either way that's very costly to start from scratch and goes into the price.
  • Surely you know how MS's licensing works. After the consent decree of 1994, they couldn't charge a licensing fee for all the systems sold by a manufacturer. They managed to accomplish the same thing by licensing per product line (which was okayed by DOJ). So if an OEM wants to sell Windows on a product line, they pay a license for every machine they ship in that product line. On the other hand, if they want a product line which does not include Windows, they can sell systems without ever having to pay a dime to MS.

    So, if you buy a Latitude CPX, Dell has to pay a licensing fee to MS. That charge is passed on to you, the consumer.

    BTW, IMHO, what the consent decree of 1994 accomplished was giving MS a much finer degree of intelligence into the PC industry. Pre-1994, they only knew how many systems shipped from each OEM. Post 1994, they knew how many systems within each product line of each OEM shipped. Thanks, DOJ.
  • I witnessed about a year ago a discussion on Usenet, where someone from Lucent (at least he claimed so, and the email address said the same) made a strong point of the company's policy of *never* opening the specs on their Mars chipset, on which their winmodem is based, but rather guard it as a trade secret (hint: see the parallel to what happens in the DVD case? /hint), so that nobody gets to clone it; and that they don't care about the Linux users, who never were a "target market" for them. I once e-mailed their customer support, and got a very similar reply. The fact that they recently released a binary-only driver was a *big* surprise for me.
  • I once worked for a large PC manuf (gord help me) and I am a bit shocked that people feel that the systems should be cheaper. You also have to consider support costs to the company. They either have to hire and train their own employees or outsource the support, either way that's very costly to start from scratch and goes into the price. Support costs for PC manufs are massive. Just try teaching a pile of windows techs basics of Unix/Linux support, it's an UGLY undertaking, I've tried.

    Support for such systems is a whole new world and companies accustomed to paying X amount of dollars for X amount of support may take some time to realize how they can't recycle most their current windows support staff resulting is some messes. I think this could be a stumbling block to many companies who's support may poor with windows (to say the least) and then attempt to do support for Linux/Unix. The alternative would be outsourcing, however with a limited # of such outsourcers the costs there will be prohibitive for some companies to start.
    1. Firstly, it wasn't an "extra $100."

      Dell was likely paying MSFT substantially less than $100 in return for buying a whole pile of copies of Win9x. Likely something more like $50. Or perhaps even less than that for Huge Quantity Discounts as well as Exclusively Installing Win9x So As To Block Out Alternatives.

    2. Secondly, some of the amount that more likely resembles $50 is likely going to LinuxCare. [linuxcare.com]

      I'd say the more the merrier.

    3. As for the "3 months of tech support," I suggest that you take a look at Red Hat Linux Versions. [redhat.com]

      The only thing you get support on is installation support.

      If you bought a system where Linux was preinstalled, then you don't need installation support.

  • That's even worse than the prospect of Dell pocketing the difference in cost between selling a macine with a Windows license and one with a Linux Distro. What I'm hearing is that MS is getting a click on every machine sold out of a product line where MS Windows is installed on some portion of the units. I think I remember hearing this before but it didn't occur to me that this was still the case.

    So when you buy a machine with no OS installed, Dell pays a license click, when a machine is sold with Linux, Dell pays, when a machine goes out with Windows, they pay. Is that it?

    If that really is the standing licensing agreement under which Dell is selling these Linux pre-installed laptops, then some small percent of the purchase price of one of these things ends up at Microsoft. I sure hope that's not right.

    By this logic, if Dell sold 999,999 machines with Linux and only 1 with Windows (I know), then Microsoft would get the equivalent of 1 million machine's Windows licensing fee from Dell. Crazy.

  • Dell preinstallation is not great (Score:3)

    by pq ( 42856 ) <rfc2324&yahoo,com> on Tuesday February 01, 2000 @09:01AM (#1315337) Homepage
    As someone who just got a new Dell workstation(*) at the office with RH 6.0 on it, let me say that the preinstallation isn't great. Yes, its competent, but the partition sizes are all wrong (are they ever just right?), ethernet doesn't quite work right (hours with ifconfig) and its set to use NIS+, which won't play nice with the rest of our Solaris workshop.

    So even if you get it preinstalled, odds are you'll want to redo it yourself. At least you'll know that it can be made to work, and there's only you to blame if it doesn't... and if you're running Linux, that's the way its meant to be, right?

    So think of it as "tested to run Linux."

    (*) Ah, a dual Pentium III 550 box, with a GB of RAM - those FFTs really fly now.
    Offtopic note: kernel 2.2.5-SMP15 doesn't do too well with the GB of RAM, and it seems to dribble the RAM away to rogue processes until it has a little over 170 MB left. Anyone interested in a remote diagnosis before I blow it away for a new kernel?

  • "For one, it appears that the community expects the work to be done for no money."

    It was "the community" which did the bulk of the work here, not Dell.

    "They scream because the machine isn't cheaper with Linux on it, even though the amount of work to be done to get Linux to work decently with laptops is considerable, far more than with desktops . . ."

    If they would publish the specifications to the parts of the laptops, they wouldn't have to do any work, because the linux people would have drivers out before their slow-moving corporate programmers could assign a project number to the job.

    " . . . and support costs can be expected to be higher (simply because there are far fewer experts on Linux-laptop issues than for Windows-laptop issues)."

    On the other hand, a given linux user is far more likely to also be an "expert" (i.e., not want or need support) than a given windows user.

    "Second, the community screams because support for all platforms isn't instantly available, even though many laptop components don't have Linux drivers present."

    While I shouldn't speak for the rest of the community, what burns me is that they use those laptop components which have secret specifications; this is what generates the lack of linux drivers, not the lack of effort on linux programmers or lack of investment on the part of the manufacturers.

    "So, it would appear that neither profit nor good will is available by doing Linux support for laptops. The users don't want to pay for it, and they'll hate you anyway."

    Actually, I hope that is part of the lesson any other OEMs take away from this. Because I don't what their "support". I'm not interested in buying a computer which reverts into a silicon-and-plastic doorstop every time I don't get "support". I am interested in buying a computer *and never talking to the seller again*. To do that I need the specifications to all hardware to be published, so I or others can write drivers to use them how we please.

    I don't want Dell to "support" my laptop or my desktop (I'm typing on a Dell Dimension XPS T450, on which I have never managed to get the sound card working, because it uses some built-in-to-the-motherboard non-published specs piece of shit). I just want them to sell a piece of hardware fully described so I know what I am getting and I can use it.

  • Re:I'm not that impressed. (Score:4)

    by Alan Shutko ( 5101 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2000 @09:22AM (#1315345) Homepage
    How many laptops have you installed Linux on? I've done a bunch. There's always something which requires voodoo to get working, whether it's hacking out your own modelines (for the LCD screen!) because nothing else gets it right, starting in framebuffer mode because that's the only way to get X to work, hacking the install disks to move the location of th TCIC controller, or trying valiently (and eventually giving up) to get sound to work. Many laptops I've worked on have had built-in but unusable hardware in one way or another.

    Maybe preinstalled desktops aren't very cool, but preinstalled laptops mean that you don't have to go scouring web sites and ftp sites for clues on how to get everything to work. It means that odds are, all the hardware will work! This _is_ a leap ahead.
  • Dell's laptop quality certainly isn't the best that it could be. The U of M Business School had a special deal with Dell where students could buy a laptop with various pieces of software preinstalled. All the Win9x Control Panel stuff was also set up so that students could plug in an Ethernet card and cable, surf, and print to the U of M's networked printers without having to configure anything. About 150 students took advantage of this offer.

    First the laptops arrived several weeks behind schedule, then about 20% of them were missing a relatively important piece of software that's used locally, then 4 or 5 of them were apparently set to 800x600 resolution at the factory. (They all had 1024x768 LCD screens, so those looked extraordinarily bad.) I heard a fair number of horror stories from students who dealt with Dell's Friendly Helpful Tech Support, too.

    Remember, this was using an OS that Dell is experienced with and knows well. Maybe they've gotten their act together in the intervening 5 months...

  • Re:What extra $100 (Score:3)

    by dillon_rinker ( 17944 ) on Tuesday February 01, 2000 @09:40AM (#1315350) Homepage
    I know Dell doesn't pay $100/machine for WinXX

    They don't pay MS $100/machine for WinXX, but Win XX costs them more than they pay MS. When an OEM licenses WinXX from MS, the OEM assumes all support costs (at least, at the lowest pricing levels they do). Dell takes their support costs for WinXX and averages that over all the systems that have WinXX preloaded. The discount you saw reflected both the licensing cost and the average support cost.

    Interesting tidbit - the profit margin on PCs is so slim that the average technical support incident for a consumer-level system will wipe out the profit for that system.
  • (see the subject)
    And so do many other people. Now, I don't use it as my workstation -- it is primarily an IP masq gateway for LAN, and also a small-scale www/ftp/mail/samba server, running Debian. The hadrware is AMD 486dx4-100, 32MB RAM, 1.2 Gig HD. It does the job very nicely. In fact it is actually over-powered for what it does. I am not about to get rid of it as it is still a very nice machine.

    Admittedly, my workstation is AMD k6/2-300 and I am running Mandrake on it which does appear to be noticeably faster then any other distro I tried. Although most of the performance gain comes from GUI stuff which is quite bloated (*ghm* KDE) -- pentium optimizations sure make a difference there. The majority of the daemons though are rather light weight so the pentium optimization would not make that much of a difference.

    So, what I'm saying is that pentium optimizations are indeed very nice, but
    1) you cannot just obsolete 486 and 386 -- they are still being used and they might even live for the next 10 years in embedded devices -- who knows?

    2) I don't believe the difference in performance of the majority of the daemons would be anywhere near as dramatic as that of KDE. And besides, when it comes to servers you want to make 100% sure they are reliable. 99% is not good enough (ok, now I'm being paranoid, but hey -- only the paranoid survive ;-)


    ___
  • Hmmmm - I'm undecided about whether OSS products are going to automatically mean "greater support costs" - Certainly to an experienced *nix hack it is EASIER to maintain an open system than being responsible for the behavior of black-binaries from some dasterdly company that wants hundreds of $$ for support incidents. I've tried out many OSS products where the vendor makes it clear they come with limited support, and for some strange reason I haven't NEEDED any.

    However I've another machine we're trying to get Outlook on and it repeated says "There's been a problem that requires you to reboot your PC" - reboot and it says the same thing - which to me says, uh-oh, both the registry AND it's backup are corrupted. Now THATS a support cost in that I'm going to have to spend hours fumbling around in the undocumented bowels of msft, perhaps reinstall everything, to fix. Those are the guys who regularly get dinged for all the "hidden cost of ownership" once you take the bait, at least to those of us who aren't blinded by BS.

    Zen Master Jack
    Not Responsible for Errors in Other Companies Property
  • That link shows that a DVD drive is available with the laptop that ships with Linux. I wonder if it ships with DeCCS? :-)
  • "You have to order over the phone. The web
    site doesn't support choosing Linux."

    If you go in through the "Small Business" area, you can order it via the web. At least, I can configure it and get a price. I havn't hit the "purchase" button yet.

    "2. They won't do a dual boot setup. "

    That is a bummer, but at least the fact that they support Linux gives me confidence that I could install a dual-boot system without too much grief.

    Jonathan


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