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Lineo 1.0 Eor Embedded x86 Released 70

Posted by Hemos from the making-it-for-the-small dept.
Snarfvs Maximvs wrote to us with the news Lineo's Embedix Linux 1.0 for embedded x86 devices is out, with a distribution ready for download. One of the areas of interest is the WinCE compatibility layer that's currently in development - anyone know anything more about that? And what's going to happen now that Transmeta's "Mobile Linux" is out and about as well as Lineo?
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Lineo 1.0 Eor Embedded x86 Released More

Lineo 1.0 Eor Embedded x86 Released

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  • I've got a WinCE device (a Philips Nino), and I've had the opporitunity to work with a number of other ones as well. All I can say for the hardware is that it's more impressive than the hardware found on a Palm. The Nino has 8MB of RAM, a 32-bit processor (MIPS R3000), a backlit display, and the ability to recharge the batteries while docked. Last time I checked the Palm was running off of a 68K with somewhere between 1MB and 2MB of RAM, backlighting wasn't common, and you couldn't easily recharge the batteries. WinCE devices with colour screens rock, too :)

    As for stability, I've had few problems with the Nino. It hardly locks up (maybe once every two months), and when it has locked up I've been able to reset and not lose any information. I'm not sure how this compares to a Palm as I've not used one for extended periods of time.

    Developing for WinCE is nice, too. Again, I've no idea how this compares to Palm development as I've not used it. I've talked to people who've done both, and the consensus is that WinCE is a nicer platform to develop for than Palm.

    Anyway, just my 2 cents on the whole matter.
  • Anyone try the PPC version?
    Do you have to install this or can you "borrow" someones mac?
    How does this compare to QNX? I would hope it has at least telnet, and the ability to run remote X apps.

  • That's in the spirit of the GPL, not this "request real nice and we'll think about it" email stuff.

    Hey, it could be worse. It could be Slashdot co-founder Rob Malda (CmdrTaco) telling you, as he told the rest of the Slashdot audience about two weeks ago, "I delay the release by 24 hours each time someone asks me when a new Slash tarball will be out."

    Sorry, but it had to be said. :-)

    Cheers,
    ZicoKnows@hotmail.com

  • I have WinCE 1.0 and it does crash fairly easy.
    But, I don't know, it's not quite as bad if you
    use the basic things that you get. If you begin
    downloading programs and what-not, it becomes a
    real pain.
  • I firmly believe that CE is not dead by a long shot. The palmOS clones however do appear to be dead.

    I don't think you really understand the concept of an embedded OS. The idea is you can put a little portable OS into virtually any piece of hardware (car, tv, toaster, etc..). this is one place where CE does very well. it's a well designed modern OS with a lot of Win32 compatibly. It can run DirectX (i.e. dreamcast), SQL Server, IIS and pretty much anything else. Also it is easy to develop for; you can write apps in VB, MS C++, etc..

    Linux is also well suited in this position; typically in the world of computers "there can be only one(tm)", it will be interesting to see what happens.

    -Jon
  • Y'all forgot LinuxCE [linuxce.org], which aims for MIPS, SH3, etc. devices that in a previously deviant lifestyle ran WinblowsCE.
  • I don't think you really understand the concept of an embedded OS.

    Also it is easy to develop for

    Sorry, to disappoint you - but writing embedded operating systems is my day time job, and I've been developing on Windows CE until my former employer (Ericsson) said "Windows CE no more" .. :)

    No way Windows CE is easy to develop for, or for that matter, a modern well-thought out operating system.

  • I know you are joking about but Meester Taco can do what the hell he wants with his own code as it is just that - his own code.

    They are not allowed to keep other people's code secret as it is just that - other people's code.

  • Re:Here's the score card... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    You left out EtLinux [eurotech.it]:
    I dont know that much about it but it looks to not have a gui. The min requirements are 386SX, 2mbDram, 2mb of solidstate disk. This was designed for eurotech's pc104 devices but does not look to be held to that.
  • But while we're on the subject of Transmeta, if you check out their Mobile systems [transmeta.com] webpage, they're showing off a picture of their product running Netscape with Slashdot being displayed. Soon trolls and First Posters can take their Slashdot anywhere on Earth!
  • yes, but this is targeting the embedded market, not the pda market.

    wince does run natively on the x86. many embedded devices (set-top boxes, winterms) use wince. i have seen several winterm-type systems running wince and the wince citrix ica client on a cyrix mediagx. the capio from boundless technolgy is a good example of this.
  • There are lots of places to go to get off the shelf x86 (or PPC) designs. Or for companies that already have embedded hardware that they have built, it is quite possible that they are x86 or PPC based and just want to create variations of their previous designs. Hardware designers are not going to throw away designs because of a processor that can emulate other processors through software.

    There is a lot of life left in these existing designs, and people are going to need a reason to change.
  • There's a fbdev based windowing system in the pipes called DiniX (Dinix Is Not X). It's basicly a framebuffer multiplexor, so it sould be just about as efficient as raw fbdev access.

  • I ment to hit "preview"... there isn't any way to modify one's commets, is there?

    Anyway "Dinix" should be "DinX", and here's the description from the 0.2.2 announcement on linux-fbdev:
    DinX is an experimental windowing system that performs clipping and drawing inside Linux kernel modules. This eliminates much context switching between clients and the server, and makes the code small, simple and fast. It is aimed at small systems like Linux handhelds.

    Full anouncement here [mail-archive.com] .

  • Re:Here's the score card... (Score:3)

    by Captn Pepe ( 139650 ) on Tuesday January 25, 2000 @01:07PM (#1337538)

    Don't forget these as well:

    ET-Linux [prosa.it] - Runs on embedded x86 systems, and really IS meant for small, embedded systems (eg. little to no security). glibc2.1/kernel 2.0.38. Used with an ADC card to acquire data in the astrophysics lab where I work. It'll fit nicely in a 6MB flash chip.

    TINY Linux [seul.org] - Really meant for recycling old 386s, works in an embedded environment without too much work. A full install with X takes around 80MB, but you can pare it down to 10-20. Based on libc5, though, so watch out when compiling new packages.

    MicroLinux [linux.hr] - I haven't used this one, nor do I read Russian (which the page is in), but I've heard that it works and has a very small installed footprint.

    MuLinux [sunsite.auc.dk] - An Italian distro, still in development, major feature of which is the ability to live in a ramdisk on a computer with only 4MB of ram, if I understand correctly what I've read about it. (Haven't actually used this one either.)

  • BZZT Wrong Answer!!!

    After having my HP-Omnigo die a couple of years ago I wanted to buy a PDA... I was looking at the available choices back then:

    -PSION: No retailers to be seen, would've been my choice based on their OS alone.
    -Apple Newton: Loved it, hated it's price, could've carried it on my bag with no problems, damn you Apple for letting it die...
    -Palm: WHAT??? Only 512K of RAM? WTF? Graffitti? (It was included on the Omnigo too so I was comfortable with it)
    -WindowsCE: Hated them, but had better hardware and a lot of potential. I even admit that WinCE wasn't too bad compared to Windoze...

    So considering my primary uses (Note Taker, PIM and Terminal -- YES!!! You can program a cisco router with an H/PC and still look totally k3wl in the process) I decided to buy a WinCE machine (A cassiopeia A-20) until it died of abuse last year, then the Palm was a better choice (PSION wasn't anywhere to be seen in the retail stores) but damn its price... it was excessive... if Handspring would've been out then... things could've been different.

    have no idea what WinCE devices are like compared to Palms on a hardware level, but I would bet that Palms are more reliable

    Not a matter of reliability but of horsepower... WinCE Machines have better hardware because they have to run that bloated piece of crap called WinCE at a decent speed... most have >60MHz RISC processors (MIPS R3000/4000 variants, ARM?StrongARM and Hitachi SHx), color displays and lots of nifty stuff... only problem??? The OS :(

    That's why I'm working to port Linux to my Philips Nino 210 because the HW is beautyful and strong and the posibilities of running a decent OS on it (And be able to synch it with Linux) are great...

    And Linux on WinCE machines has more potential than on the Dreamcast... just ask all the WinCE companies that have quit the market recently :)

    ZoeSch
  • I have a correction about MicroLinux [linux.hr], it's a small distribution (14Mb basic install) which is customized for Croatian users (and not Russian -- that's why pages are in Crotian). It's mainly aimed at people who want to try how Linux looks like without much instalation and/or configuration. It's not aimed at embeded market.
  • >I've talked to people who've done both, and the consensus is that WinCE
    >is a nicer platform to develop for than Palm.

    It may be a nicer environment, but AFAIK, it's not as
    accessable (cheap :) to would-be developers.

    IIRC, Palm development uses free GNU tools, while
    Wince requires $500+ worth of compilers and tools[1]
    (Not to mention NT, if you want to use the emulator)...

    I have an older Wince device and I'd love to play
    around with it, but being a broke college student,
    I just can't afford the 'MS Tax'.

    But I might be wrong about all this...
    (And if I am, tell me! I'd like to hack on these things!)

    [1] Visual C++ 6.x ($300?), WinCE Dev Kit ($200?)


    =-=-=-=-=-=
    "...You and me baby ain't nothin' but mammals/
    so let's do it like they do on the Discovery channel..."
  • V2_OS -- by V2_Labs
    Target 32-Bit x86 requires about a 200Kb... No GUI though, but is 'in-the-making'
    Website + download [v2.nl]
  • There will be no native crusoe apps ever, because Transmeta values the ability to change the underlying hardware. Read the piece on Ars Technica, where they speculate that TM is working on chips with a hardware/software boundary that's different from Crusoe's.
  • Mobile Linux is not what a lot of people think it is.

    See this post [deja.com] from the Main Man.

  • Here ya go... hot off the presses. Just got an email today from Lineo with the URL to the source for their GPLed components. Somebody else can go check it out: ftp://ftp.lineo.com/pub/embedix/v1.0 There's the love.

  • Re:gpl? (Score:1)

    by pb ( 1020 )

    Cool! All source rpm's...

    Heck, it's just cool to see the list of programs they're cramming into this.

    It doesn't look like a bad start for a root/boot disk. :)

    ---
    pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11].
  • tell microsoft ce's dead
    Microsoft's Windows CE Page [microsoft.com]
  • moblinux is a normal x86 kernel and distro
    ie. the same binaries will work on a normal x86 box as well as a crusoe machine.

  • gpl? (Score:2)

    by Phexro ( 9814 )
    i downloaded the binaries on friday, though i have not touched them since.

    on the website, it said to mail embedix-support@lineo.com to get the source. i mailed that address with a request for source a few minutes after i downloaded the binaries on friday, and have yet to recieve a reply. ymmv.

  • The actual press release (Score:4)

    by vanguard ( 102038 ) on Tuesday January 25, 2000 @11:54AM (#1337550)
    For the actual press release and not the company's home page click Here [lineo.com].
  • I believe I'm correct in pointing out that the two are made for entirely different applications...although both shoot for the small, Lineo is made for x86, and MobLinux is made for Crusoe... I could be wrong, but that's what I understood from the Crusoe website....
  • WinCE is more than dead (it's called Pocket PC now, right?) - PalmOS and Symbian [symbian.com] OS (Epoc) is the way to make this attractive.

    Palm has a huge momentum in the US, and in Europe there's no doubt that Symbian will rule the smartphone and handheld market completely. Looking at their website they have special made versions of the OS for many screen sizes and devices. It's only a question of _when_ those things will appear on the market. To get a brief hint on what's to come, look at how many awars the Psion [psion.com] Revo has won!

    It will be very interesting to see an OS not really made to work on small devices compete in this arena. WinCE failed badly - PalmOS is doing quite well even though it's hardly a real OS, and the Symbian OS has been tailor made by first Psion and now Symbian since many many years for exactly this ...

    Yeah, I have devices with WinCE, PalmOS and the Symbian OS ;) The MC218 (by Ericsson [ericsson.com]) is the one I use for my daily work ...

  • Hrm... (Score:3)

    by delmoi ( 26744 ) on Tuesday January 25, 2000 @12:00PM (#1337553) Homepage
    One gets the feeling, or at least I do, that Caldera probably wishes that they hadn't been working on this. It's only been, what a week Since the Transmeta announcement?

    I can't really see this getting that much market acceptance over the Embedded Linux that comes strait from linus for the Crusoe. I suppose there's a large market for 386's and stuff though.

    A smart thing for Caldera to do would be to port there "CE compatibility layer" to Embedded Linux on the Crusoe, that would enable them to cash in on there hard work and still be useable in a Transmeta world (depending on whether or not Transmeta succeeds).

    Oh well, its nice to see Linux getting a hold on the embedded market.

    [ c h a d o k e r e ] [iastate.edu]
  • well, wince runs on x86, therefore crusoe. kind of a moot point.

    of course, it's not clear if crusoe can run apps for several different cpus at once. if not, then porting the ce compatibility layer might have some value. it may also have some usefulness if the source is released, as that would be a very attractive path for companies looking to move away from wince, or who do not want to pay m$ huge licensing fees.

  • Why WinCE compatability? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Why would anyone even want to port a version of Linux to a WinCE-compatible device? People who buy WinCE devices generally want some sort of 'comfortable interface' (read: something similar to MSWindows). There is no real reason to port to WinCE devices when the Palm market is much bigger, filled with computing experts, and has what is probably more stable hardware (I have no idea what WinCE devices are like compared to Palms on a hardware level, but I would bet that Palms are more reliable). Simply put, people buy WinCE devices for the Microsoft logo, not the hardware. These people are probably not interested in using Linux, so why put out the effort to port Linux to WinCE boxes?

    PS- Linux on a Dreamcast, though... drool... (still, little commercial value. Damn!)
  • Looks like this is for making embedded linux solutions on x86 and PowerPC. It's free for download, and they'll have to at least release whatever changes they've made to the 2.2 kernel, if they aren't just kernel modules. It will be interesting to see what functionality this shares with MobileLinux (if any), and how much of it we can cobble together between the two of them.

    Also, some of this code might be handy for making a modern version of Linux that runs well on old computers without that much RAM. (yeah, yeah, yeah, 386 with 4MB RAM. Of course it's possible, but have you tried it lately? I wouldn't mind a distro that made it easier.)
    ---
    pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11].
  • The article mentions Transmeta's Mobile Linux. Does anyone know if this is actually a port to Crusoe's native architecture or if it's just another x86 distribution to be emulated on Crusoe? It seems like the former would offer much better performance. If anyone any information, especially a link, I would appreciate it.
  • >>WinCE is more than dead . . . isn the whole appeal of WinCE homogoneity of API's. sure i hear CE is not hot on real time handling, but given the wide fragmentation of the embedded market - ChorusMIX, QNX, etc. et.c there is no doubt a horde of MS$ programmers to throw at jobs. no specialised knowledge required. honestly running my desktop is exactly the same as process control in my local MAGNOX reactor. Hmmmm. and marketinf counts for nothing? why do you write in the past tense abut CE? i couldnt care less if it were dead, but I expect somehow it is there. also i dont see why symbian should rule either. they include Psion, which is given to incredible arrogance. remember that on announcing the Psion 5 in the UK they then had to climb down and admit they were shipping all available units to the US because "they had to develop their key markets" yeah, screw them too. / rant off
  • crusoe is x86 compatible. nothing is going to be written directly for the crusoe's vliw instruction set. it will all be written for x86, ppc, or whatever else the crusoe is emulating today.
  • Isn't Chris on his honeymoon now? You might wait a while :-)
  • I have an older Wince device and I'd love to play around with it, but being a broke college student, I just can't afford the 'MS Tax'.

    Well, if you're a student, there are educational discounts. VC++ Pro for $100, and that's with a copy of NT. I'm not sure what VC++ for CE goes for under educational pricing, but it can't be much.

    Of course, free tools cost less than cheap tools, and it is a shame that there aren't alternative development environments for CE.

  • I don't Caldera / Lineo is targeting the handheld PC/Palmsize PC market with their Windows CE port.

    Frighteningly enough, Microsoft has been promoting Windows CE as a viable operating system for *embedded systems*... and this is what Lineo is targeting. There are a number of manufacturers our there that sell WinCE-ready PC-104 boards... This is the market Lineo's going after.
  • :) Yeah, running on a Root disk sucks. The best thing to do is see if you can get it to use some swap. However, if it crashed when you say it did, (at startup, basically) you're probably out of luck.

    Which distro did you try to install? Some linux distros, like Small Linux [netpedia.net], claim to be able to do what you want.

    I've got a 286 that I tried running ELKS on, and... well, it's *really* not ready for prime time. And I wouldn't want to do any real work on minix, either. No, I'd probably run DOS--try to get the Second Reality demo looping on it instead. :)
    ---
    pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11].
  • Sorry for any confusion on this matter. It looks like some people read
    the license, but I will point out a few parts for those who haven't yet:
    In the first paragraph of the license it states:

    "Any product provided along with the Software that is associated with a
    separate end-user license agreement is licensed to you under the terms of
    that license agreement."

    Also, later in the license it says:

    "GPL Software" is not owned by Lineo and is distributed to you by Lineo
    for your use. GPL Software is distributed under the terms of the GNU
    General Public License, Version 2, June 1991, a copy of which accompanies
    this EULA"

    and:

    "Lineo will provide source code for any of the components of the Software
    licensed under the GNU General Public License. To obtain such source code,
    send email to embedix-support@lineo.com"

    Unfortunately, the mail account for embedix-support@lineo.com was unmanned
    yesterday and today. However, we are actively working on manning it and making the source code available on our FTP site. This will be in the
    form of Source RPM files. I am leaving town tonight, but it should happen
    in my absence, sometime this week.

    In general, Embedix Linux consists of software which comes under a variety
    of licenses (including GPL, Artistic, BSD, and Lineo's own EULA). Our
    intent is to comply fully with all the different licenses (and have the
    EULA act as a boilerplate for the whole collection). So, in answer to
    an obvious question: "Can I take Embedix Linux and copy the whole thing
    freely?", the answer is No. However, you CAN take the GPL parts and
    redistribute them as per the GPL.

    Lineo is very committed to GPL, including funding of OpenSource
    activities, and direct development on several GPL components
    (for example, see http://busybox.lineo.com/)
  • Lineo is a distribution with value added and customer support. I doubt that Transmeta want's to get into the Linux distribution business...after all even Linus doesn't do distributions, just kernels. Mobile linux is more of a feasibility demonstration/test platform/marketing warm and fuzzy for the processor...and a great test program for the processor.
  • Ohw, err and me still keep thinking that Netscape was fscking up my fonts *again*

  • Re:gpl? (Score:3)

    by pb ( 1020 ) on Tuesday January 25, 2000 @12:16PM (#1337572)
    On the download page, they say something about it being a "special, not for distribution" version, and some other licensing stuff. Anyone who considers themselves a GPL expert, take a look. My take on it is they aren't ready to distribute it to the masses.

    However, if they gave you the binaries, and there's GPLed code in there, they owe you the source. So we'll see how this goes. (Please, not another lawsuit! I'd love to test the GPL, but...)
    ---
    pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11].
  • I don't see the two competing too much; they address somewhat different applications. Mobile Linux appears to be for laptops, web pads, and the like, while Lineo is for truly embedded systems with little or no user interface such as cell phones, heating & cooling systems, etc. (or in my case traffic controllers and telescope mounts)

    However, Lineo *does* face competition from RTLinux, uClinux and eCos. And they've been around a little longer than Lineo. But certainly this is good news for us embedded developers. Having more options is always better and Lineo seems at first glance to be an attractive one. I'll be giving it a closer look for sure.
  • Hemos is a big Winnie the pooh fan. He just put the book down for a second.
  • WinCE also runs on MIPS and SH3/SH4 processors -- the majority of the PDAs (for lack of a better term) use these processors. If you see WinCE running on an x86, chances are it's under the emulation environment that ships with the WinCE toolkit. I can't remember seeing a PDA with an x86 chip inside....

    I'm also not sure where the licensing fees come into play. I do a bit of development under WinCE in my spare time, and I only had to pay for the CE toolkit (under $200, iirc). For a company planning on developing WinCE apps that's not much of a hurdle.

    Just my 2 cents, as always.
  • PS- Linux on a Dreamcast, though... drool... (still, little commercial value. Damn!)

    Yeah, about as useful as McNealy's Java rings, coffemakers (which don't work), toilet seats...
  • well, wince runs on x86, therefore crusoe. kind of a moot point.

    Hrm, but you'd still need to licens the OS from MS. If caldera can price there CE compatiblity layer cheaper, then they'll be set. Windows 98 runs on x86 to, but that dosn't mean your standard linux box can run win32 apps. You need somthing like wine to do it.

    [ c h a d o k e r e ] [iastate.edu]
  • Minix isn't all that horrible for what it is (a puny Unix that runs on small machines). I had it running on a PS/2 50Z with a 12Mhz 286 and was fully able to compile on of my pet projects on it. I was surprised that people still use it regularly, and that active development still occured (ie, a recent version can run off of a DOS partition). IIRC, it also comes with an Emacs wannabe, as well as C, Pascal, and Modula-2 compilers, so you can start hacking away!

    386 users, though, might find VsTA [zendo.com] more powerful and useful.

    ~~~~~~~~~
    auntfloyd
  • it actually says

    "the software may not be redistributed without
    paying a royalty"

    that's kind of annoying - even mirror archives
    aren't allowed to redistribute it :-(

    -jason

  • Re:Minix (Score:1)

    by pb ( 1020 )
    Thanks for the info. I've seen minix running on an 8086, and it ran horribly... but I guess the miracle is that it ran at all. I haven't tried it on a 286, but I might someday.

    Hadn't heard of VsTA... Support for SMP? Hmm...
    ---
    pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11].
  • sounds good. can embedix still function without the stuff in the lineo EULA ? how much of it is lineo's anyway ? and what components ?
  • yeah, but there's an associated slowdown in running x86 lineo on top of the vliw translators, instead of running moblinux without the need for any such translators...or is moblinux also emulating x86? bleh.

  • Here's the score card... (Score:3)

    by SEE ( 7681 ) on Tuesday January 25, 2000 @12:27PM (#1337586) Homepage
    Embedix Linux -- by Lineo
    Targets 32-bit x86 and PowerPC systems, requires 8mb RAM and 3mb ROM. Based on Linux 2.2 kernel, includes own GUI.

    Mobile Linux -- by Transmeta
    Not much detail available as to requirements, but seems to be targeted for fairly beefy hardware relative to a PDA.

    ELKS (Embeddable Linux Kernel Subset) -- by independent hackers
    Targets 8088/8086 x86 processors. Requires up to 640k of RAM. Linux-like, but not Linux proper. Doesn't include a GUI (see NanoGUI below).

    NanoGUI -- by independent hackers
    Based on the old "mini-x" released for Minix. Mini-x ran under 8086es, but whether NanoGUI retains that capability is hard to find out (please enlighten me!). If it does, it's the natural choice to add to ELKS for a ultralightweight 16-bit "Linux".

    Steven E. Ehrbar
  • The article at news.com says: "Embedix is available as a free download, the software may not be resold". How does this work with the GPL? I thought the GPL forced vendors to pass on full rights to others.

    Also, does anyone know the pricing for royalties/licensing?

  • As far as I know, the PalmOS is doing better than WinCrashEasily or the other competitors... I've heard that the government is backing Palm (distributing pilots?) and they're going public on the 1st of Feb. CE machines look nice, but they just aren't as effective as the Pilot. Plus, the next PalmOS is going to be in color.

    Of course... there already is a Linux for the Pilot... :)
  • "Why not unite and form a power twice as strong!"
    -Lineo

    "Yes, we must combine efforts to quash the heavy hand of Redmond!"
    -Lord Linus of Transmeta

    "You fools! You think your puny OpenSource movement will shake our ground? HA!"
    -Gates of Borg

    "Prepare to meet your wrath, Gates of Borg..."
    -OpenSource Community

    / k.d / earth trickle / Monkeys vs. Robots Films [xoom.com] /

  • I just did the same as well. Downloaded the binary distribution, then sent out a very polite email asking for the source code to their modified version of the Linux kernel and any other GPLed components that they have modified. We'll see soon enough whether they reply. If they are intent on ignoring, I'll drop an email to Eric Raymond, who is quite good at dealing with companies like this and getting them to comply with the GPL.

    The strange thing here is they know full well about the GPL (some people are just ignorant), as their own license refers to GPLed code that they use in their software, and explicitly directs source code requests to their embedix-support email address. Now that's perfectly within the legal boundaries of the GPL, but it seems a bit outside of the spirit of things, given how easy it is to just put the damn source up on their website.

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