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Linux Demo Day Advocacy Event 178

Posted by Hemos from the showing-the-world dept.
Thanks to Deepak Saxena for forewarning us about the Feb. 17 Linux Demo Day Event. He writes "On February 17th, Microsoft will be releasing Windows 2000, the next version of their enterprise/business OS. I propose that the Linux community take this opportunity to inform as many people as possible about Linux by having demonstration/education events. To help in doing so, I have organized a group of Linux vendors who are willing to help LUGs and individuals by providing freebies that can be handed out. For more info on how to participate, go to www.linuxdemo.org "
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Linux Demo Day Advocacy Event More

Linux Demo Day Advocacy Event

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  • Childish? (Score:4)

    by Signal 11 ( 7608 ) on Monday January 17, 2000 @06:16AM (#1365044)
    You know, it sounds like a good idea on the surface, but I thought about it alittle bit and I think that alot of people might look on this as being childish. I mean, this is Microsoft's party, and here we are going off to crash it. Is it fair? Wouldn't we cry foul if MS decided to hold a W2K media-fest the day 2.4 came out?

    It's great that we have people who want to support and encourage the use of linux, but I think that the timing here could have been better. Why compete like this - wasn't the whole point of linux simply building a better product and letting the consumer / marketplace decide?

  • the same days as micrsoft ones? Let's be realistic: People are going to be more gung-ho about win2k rather than linux, this OS that we've heard very little about and been in the underground. If people really want to get linux out there, perhaps they shouldn't always do the big demonstrations on days where most people will be dealing with microsoft.

  • Hopefully this wont be like Refund Day (Score:3)

    by Drakino ( 10965 ) on Monday January 17, 2000 @06:18AM (#1365046) Journal
    I hope that any media coverage that this event gets isn't like the Windows Refund Day coverage. Honestly, someone dressed up like people out of Star Wars isn't going to convince the general public of something, it's just going to make them think badly of what that person was representing.

    "Oh, look at those freaks marching up to Microsoft demanding money back."
  • Wouldn't we cry foul if MS decided to hold a W2K media-fesk the day 2.4 came out? Um. No.

  • This is a bad idea (Score:3)

    by jormurgandr ( 128408 ) on Monday January 17, 2000 @06:22AM (#1365048)
    I think it would be a very bad idea to try to host a media event on the release date of Win2k. First of all, nobody would be there. Sure, you'd get al the die hard linux supporters, but the idea behind an event like this is to gain NEW support, but all the "newbies" would be busy watching MS. Secondly, trying to steal the spotlight from Microsoft is a REALLY bad idea. Although the event really wouldn't be stealing that much attention from the release, it would be enough to incur the wrath of microsoft the next time the linux community held a really big event. I think we (the linux community) should just sit back, let win2k have it's moment, then show up a week or two later and show what you can REALLY do with your PC.
    =======
    There was never a genius without a tincture of madness.
  • I think we might be taking the wrong approach. This perpetual attitude of Linux>M$ is kind of annoying. What if Win2K is good? What if it works? What if it's the greatest thing since sliced silicon?
    I'm not saying it will be, but give Microsoft a chance. Why pick Win2K's release date? Why not any other day? Why can't all OSes live in harmony?
    ===
    -Ravagin
  • ...of being repeated in 10 hours just like this was. [slashdot.org]

    But it will not because the corporate behemoth Andover [andover.net] has silenced John Katz in some Microcoft mind reeducation camp along with that pitcher from the Atlanta Braves!

    John!!! The sky is really falling!!!

    Now back to the Andover approved comments and "content".

    (No, duh, I am really just kidding, this is intended as humour, get a sense, k?)
  • yes you would and u would call bill gates Satan
  • Linux has to stand for something more than just being anti-Microsoft.

    99.9% of the people out there just want something that's going to let them get their job done. All this fanaticism does is makes people think that this is for people who hate Microsoft so much that they're willing to put up with less functionality.

  • Re:Childish? (Score:3)

    by Foogle ( 35117 ) on Monday January 17, 2000 @06:28AM (#1365053) Homepage
    Yes, Yes I believe we would. If Microsoft intentionally tried to steal the thunder away from 2.4 by hyping one of their products on the same day it was released, and telling everyone why they should buy MS instead of Linux, we'd cry "Fud! Fud!"

    And yet here Linux-people are, doing the exact same thing. Why is that? Because we're right, and they're wrong? Please.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • *thinking* - gungho about W2K

    "yeah baby! once i get Win Too Kay installed i gonna kick Commie ass!!!"

  • harmony?! but this is OS wars damnit!!
  • Name some high end enterprise features on high end hardware. Please, be detailed.
  • This is exactly what I was saying in post two...

    I think instead of doing it later, though, the linux community should do it BEFORE the microsoft events...If someone just went out and spent a butt-load of money on this new operating system, they're probably gonna keep using it, even when informed about linux and its strengths and weaknesses.


    Noone who's not "in the know" (for lack of a better term) isn't gonna care about these crazy software developers who're over there trying to push their "free OS".

    If we really want to get linux out there, we've really got to get our heads out of our asses and remember that everyone isn't like the people on /.
  • I'm not sure about the accuracy of your last statement, but you do have a point.

    Not only should Linux stand for more than just anti-Microsoft; Linux shouldn't be about anti-Microsoft at all. There's no reason that an OS should become a personal issue for everyone here. If people really want the best system, they'll move towards the best system. Maybe that's Linux, and maybe it's Windows.

    What I don't understand is why people are even bothering to hype Linux. Except for people who work at Linux-selling companies, like RedHat or VA, most of us are just in this for the personal satisfaction and the hobby-style fun. Who cares if the whole world uses our OS? I sure don't.


    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • Well that's a great idea, but not too many windows users just jump at a $80 - $200 upgrade. Hence why you'll still find windows 95 on quite a few computers. I know that I would have never gotten windows98 unless it came with my new computer. Linux is far far far away from actually getting the average user to use it. Linux isn't easy, linux isn't forced upon the masses, and linux isn't what we grew up with and use constantly at work and school. So linux advocation is a great thing, but when MS is forced to break up and windows is actually distributed by more than one company then we will start to see more people wanting to come over to the stableness of Linux and also to the standardization of linux. A concrete set of standards that all distributions follow would cause linux to become the newest contender. And how do you tell someone that the can upgrade the OS for free? These things are unbelievable to most windows users.

    When we see the new XFree and we see big companies like Creative come over to the linux world then we will see the average user using linux.

    But like the easiest to install distributions. Why would the average user need an HTTP, FTP and Telnet dameon running? A security minded version of linux protecting the not so keen user of linux from outside troubles is what we need. Corel Linux has a nice pretty installation, but it also puts ProFTPd, Apache, Sendmail, and Telnetd on right at installation. And Root and whatever other user you choose are given no passwords until you set them. Yep that's right ... all those services running with Root with no password.

  • This is more of a media stunt than anything else. What are demodays intended to do? They are intended to demonstrate linux to potential users. By staging one on the same day as the win2k release, we are saying that we will not tolerate and it will appear to potential users that you have to choose Linux OR Windows. That is not what the potential user wants to hear.

    Do we not remember when Win98 was released. People lined up outside of stores as if they were buying tickets to a concert. Most users are so blind to the truth, and accept MS propaganda, that by staging a demo day on the same day as the win2k release, it makes us appear as the enemy.

    Repent!

  • Yes, it is childish. All this anti-MS crap that has accumulated around Linux is getting old fast. If people want to bash MS, that's their business (though the phrase "get a life" springs to mind); but why must they drag Linux into it? The raison d'etre for Linux had nothing to do with Microsoft: it was conceived and built as a free Unix, and that is what it remains -- which reminds me, please note that FreeBSD advocates don't seem to need to resort to such dumb stunts. Sometimes I wonder whether it's Linux or themselves these people are publicising.
  • I hate to admit it but you are right. I have a copy of each flavor of win2k (Professional, Server, and Advanced Server) and I've not the computer to run Advanced server. and I quote "..windows 2000 supports up to eight CPUs on one server, 256 MB RAM Reccomended (128 MB minimum supported; 8GB maximum)" That's alot of machine. And I do think that running out to crash thier stupid shin-dig is a colossolly bad idea, and will make us all look like a bunch of zealots. Just leave them alone and continue to contribute to the linux community and we _should_ all be able to co-exist just fine. I almost forgot: Linux still does better on my hardware than win2k server does (IMHO)

  • Linux Demo Day (Green Acres)

    Linux Demo Day is the place for me.
    Open source is the LUG for me.
    Press spreadin' out so far and wide
    Keep your Windows, just give me that RaQ 3i.
    Win2K is where I'd rather stay.
    Treaking kernels is hard I say.
    I just adore a closed source view.
    Dah-ling I blue screen but give me my NT too.
    ...John Hall.
    ...Linux Mall.
    ...2K will flop.
    ...Open source is top
    We own root.
    Good bye, Windows life.
    Linux Demo Day we are there.

  • the world doesn't revolve around you and linux. People think differently than you. People will be eagerly anticipating the release of win2k...Just because you're not, or i'm not, doesn't mean that noone is.

  • A few comments... (Score:5)

    by dsaxena ( 57330 ) on Monday January 17, 2000 @06:41AM (#1365067)
    I'm the organizer of the event, and most of the people participating so far are waiting anywhere from a few days to week or two after Win2K releases and than putting together some sort of event at a local store/library. This will let MS have the spotlight, let people get caught up in the hype of Win2K, and than go learn about Linux

    As for media coverage and the issue of stupid people, I am specifically asking people to behave in a proper manner. We don't want people running around making fools of themselves trying to advocate Linux. We don't want people who do nothing but say "Microsoft bad. Linux good." It's up to each LUG to try to inform their membership that this is meant to be a well organized, well presented event. Hopefully some idiot won't fsck it up.

    The goal is to educate people that there is an alternative. I don't want Linux to be shoved down everyone's throats, but just to let people be aware that there is something other than what the big media machine tells you there is. I don't want Microsoft to die, but I do think there are a lot of small/medium size companies that will just get caught up in the Win2K hype and spend gobs of money to get it up and and running without ever knowing what alternatives exist. Maybe some of these people know that Linux exists, but how many of them do you think have given it a test drive on their own? Probably not many. I'm not trying to go into Intel or some other large company and talk them out of using NT. It's the small companies, with limited funds, that really need to learn about Linux. The idea of an OS upgrade will already be in their mind due to the Win2K release hype, so why not take the opportunity to show them some alternatives.


    --
    Deepak Saxena

  • ...until the people who buy y2k on the first day are begging for something else?

    Seems to me kind of silly to try to undercut the Redmond PR machine (that's what makes release days, after all), whereas if we hold off until March, it's no longer about PR, and more about quality.

    You could have an "Uninstall y2k for St Patrick" day the month after... if people aren't *too* busy drowning the shamrock :)

    Give Windows enough rope to hang itself before we get a lynch mob together :)

    Dave Neary.

  • Three pieces of advice for this... (Score:5)

    by jd ( 1658 ) <imipak&yahoo,com> on Monday January 17, 2000 @06:42AM (#1365069) Homepage Journal
    ...Pre-empt, pre-empt, pre-empt.

    There is ABSOLUTELY no point in having a Linux Demo Day that starts at the same time as Windows 2000 is officially rolled out. That's not where the press will be.

    Yes, you absolutely want the event to go -through- the roll-out, but you really want to start the day before with a massive campaign to the press.

    That way, come the release of Windows 2000, eyes are on Linux, -not- Bill Gates or whoever Microsoft decides should make the press announcement.

    The newspapers and TV stations only have so much space/time to allocate to computer news, so the more you can shift the focus to Linux, the less time (and therefore mindshare) Windows 2000 will get.

    Just keep in mind, Microsoft has the advantage of numbers. But numbers really don't count for much in a well-planned ambush, and don't count at all if you can be sure that you can strike first.

  • I'm not the original poster, but try installing Linux on an HP NetServer LXr-8500 [hp.com]. Of course, you can't find drivers for much of the hardware, such as the fibre channel HBAs or the RAID controllers. Even if you could, which OS would make better use of eight Xeons, 4GB RAM, two Gigabit ATM NICs, and 250GB RAID storage, Linux or NT? I realize some /. poster will claim that his 486-SX/33MHz with 16MB RAM is faster running Linux than any SMP NT box, but honestly, is Linux ready for the enterprise?
  • Wouldn't we cry foul if MS decided to hold a W2K media-fest the day 2.4 came out?

    I wouldn't.

    Besides, why would MS do such a thing? Linux kernel releases do not get much attention from the mainstream media. Windows releases, on the other hand, do get a lot of media attention. It makes sense for Linux devotees to piggyback on the hype of the Windows release. There is no (or little) such incentive on the part of Microsoft.

    I think this could be a great thing. What I imagine is having mild-mannered people setting up tables from which they can distribute linux distros (supplied by various distributors) and maybe pamphlets about why Linux is so k-k00l.

  • Why? (Score:1)

    by Caball ( 58351 )
    I propose that the Linux community take this opportunity to inform as many people as possible about Linux by having demonstration/education events.

    Why? Do you seriously believe that the people that will be considering upgrading to W2000 are not aware that Linsux exists? Who is your little show going to be for... the CTO of a fortune 500 company? You think he needs you to bestow the virtues of Linux? Maybe you want to target the old lady around the corner trying to find a recipe on AOL for prune soup, but something tells me she might have a bit of trouble with Linux, so you would be wasting your time there as well.

    Enough of stupid fervor. Anyone that hasn't heard of Linux and its "virtues" has been dead for the past year. We don't need anymore rah, rah bullshit, we need a viable mainstream alternative (please don't tell me we are already there, cause you would be full of shit) to Winblows.

    More support, apps, and compatibility, and less extolling the virtues of an OS that isn't quite up to the level it needs to be to be considered viable for mainstream America.

  • No, this is a great idea. (Score:3)

    by VValdo ( 10446 ) on Monday January 17, 2000 @06:47AM (#1365073)
    Because this is going to be a Windows-sponsored media "event" - that means a lot of money dumped by M$, and a lot of media coverage, and a lot of attention from the public. That's EXACTLY the time Linux should be presented as an alternative, and the media, many of whom will be looking for balanced coverage (Don't think I'm giving them too much credit-- in this case "balanced coverage" is also more interesting than just reporting what they've been spoonfed) will be more than happy to present another OS-option, especially considering that the mainstream media already knows about Linux.

    This will work if we're unified in our message and we have some good spokespeople who can show how/why Linux is better than Win2k. Waiting a week or two will totally miss the wave.

    It's free publicity folks-- and to those of you who say "who cares, Linux isn't about marketshare, it's not supposed to be a replacement for Windows, it's about the ART, man...." Uh.... suuure. Coulda fooled me.

    W
    -------------------
  • Those of us that already use and appreciate Linux have a whole month to convice other people to switch to Linux before they spend their money on yet another Windows upgrade.

    Why are we waiting until Feb to start enlightening people?
  • Do you think that an average consumer version of linux needs to install various header files needed to compile new programs? You'd think the average user would just use .rpm and such for new software. Also, removing the unneeded daemons, such as telnet, FTP, NFS, etc would save on resources and protect against security. And perhaps an option to login easier (no password, just click a button or picture, based on the honor system).
  • AFAIK, Win2k is only available on Intel architectures, and it's far from being high-end hardware. If you really want high-end equipment, go for something 64-bit (i.e. Alpha or UltraSparc). As for Gigabit Ethernet, etc., I guess we'll just have to see how well Win2k handles it!!

  • So... what do you want to tell ´em? (Score:3)

    by FutileRedemption ( 30482 ) on Monday January 17, 2000 @06:49AM (#1365079)
    "Linux is much easier to administrate, you only need to dive deeply into the good old unix cruft to get it (3 or 4 years should be completely sufficient)."

    Not so good, isnt it?

    "Linux is inherently insecure due to the flawed security design of UNIX, which it clones. But it at least it can be more secure than Windows 2000, which is even worse. Of course, to get superior security, you need to learn about UNIX, but 3 to 4 years... (we already had that)"

    Not really good for marketing, unfortunately.

    "You only need to apply 20 or so security fixes to your distribution and look at bugtraq with argus eyes, and with some luck you may not get cracked!"

    Oh, no, please.

    "While admittedly setting up and administrating anything non-trivial on UNIX is pure hell for any beginner, it will be much more stable than anything Windows. If the poor admin didnt give up. (And ...blabla ... security fixes ...blabla ... bugtraq ...blabla... he may not get cracked)."

    Well, it IS much more stable. Still... suppose the marketing people need something better to promote Linux...

    Anyway. Please be honest:
    Do you REALLY want to send all that poor Windows people into UNIX hell? And tell them that Linux/UNIX WILL make them happy?

    I dont. How about this:
    With Windows X you are using a crappy system from a company that repeatedly has proven to be unable to deliver good stuff. If you switch to Linux you =can= get a more stable and secure system. But keep in mind that UNIX is not designed for easy administration. For beginners its pure hell. The UNIX design is 30 years old and flawed. For security its deeply flawed. But unfortunately still the best this poor planet has.

    (moderators: moderate this down, please, it lacks expression of popular opinion.)
  • > the world doesn't revolve around you and linux too rite! it revolves around FreeBSD! arf arf!

  • Crashing the W2K release should not be about bashing Microsoft. It should be about promoting GNU/Linux as an alternative. If you are unclear about how to go about that, please read the Linux Advocacy Mini How-To [linux.com].

    For information about the Microsoft W2K release hoopla, check out Microsoft's Event Page [microsoft.com].

  • Nah, the Athlon was the greatest thing in sliced silicon. But I digress - I've had a W2K beta for some time now. Assuming they work the bugs out of the hardware support and fix up some of the display glitches (you know, the usual errata) I think it'll be a stunning release for the corporate world. Right now, however, it sucks. It will likely continue to suck until atleast sp1. But everybody already knows that. =)
  • There are no "BeOS-people". There are no "Linux-people" either. I'd be really pissed if someone called me a "Linux-person". I don't need anyone pigeon-holing my personality based on the operating system I use on my computer. I'm not a Linux fanatic. I'm not even a Linux enthusiast. I'm just a Linux-user and Linux-developer. I think we'd all do well to be the same (with the OS of your choice, of course).

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • Exactly ... I've brought up this discussion before, but everytime I do I get some linux enthusiastic dweeb who tells me that would take away the basis of linux and open more problems for virus's and such. But most people who download rpm's and deb's or just plain old binaries don't look at the source code. And if they do they don't know what they're reading anyways. I mean of course you can search for the rm -rf commands and such. But still a package loader that will recognize the not so niceness of a binary would be the answer.
  • something someone said a few days ago about Linux users having zeal like born-again religious ppl. i guess its like this, after years of being unsatisfied with their OS lot they have found the thing they were waiting for (the fact they could have found it a few years earlier w/ BSD is another issue but anyway...) so now they are so enthusiastic and bright, and giving it da big hype

    however Linux is not for everyone, but if it can help you do your job better or help you learn something better or improve your enjoyment of your computer then go ahead.

    i on the other hand use MacOS because it is the best

  • Good point, and I definitely agree.

    Linux is no longer a completely foreign word in the media, so this event should gather some mainstream press. Granted, it won't be covered like the W2K launch (I'm not even sure God himself could compete with that), but it should get mentioned, and is more likely to do so if it occurs before the W2K hype and it's tied in to the release somehow by contrasting itself with W2K. Here's what I would do:

    Seek not to disseminate anti-MS FUD, but rather to point out the differences in Linux and W2K, and emphasize the major points of Linux that W2K cannot provide (e.g. open source). This should ensure coverage AND Linux education.

    ---
    Tempfiles fugit.

  • Re:Hold it! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    What if Win2K is good?

    The immediate urge is to laugh uproariously at the mere thought :-).

    On a more serious note: so what if it is? The whole MS vs. the world thing is about choice, not just which one of anything necessarily is "better" than another. MS is anti-choice. MS is lock-in. Linux, indeed: any of the 'nixes, is about choice. Not just choice today, but the flexibility of having choice in the future.

    Scott McNealy of Sun Microsystems put it most humorously once when he said

    "Try moving off NT easily. You can move from Solaris to HP/UX to AIX or DEC easily--relative to moving off of NT, which is like a Roach Motel. Once you check in, you never check out."
    You can add to McNealy's list Linux and the various BSDs.

    For me, choice and flexibility are as important as features and performance. And choice is certainly more important than flash-and-trash.

  • This perpetual attitude of Linux>M$ is kind of annoying. What if Win2K is good? What if it works? What if it's the greatest thing since sliced silicon?

    What if it is? The attitude is Linux vs MicroSoft -- not Linux vs Windows. There are far more reasons to ... *cough* ... dislike M$ than Windows sucking. This is more than products, this is political. ;-)
    --
  • Lets face it folks. About all your average person (please don't be offended if you consider yourself one) knows about Linux is that some company named Red Hat makes it. Now, while this is far from the truth and changing fast, the public really has to know what an OS is before they can make an informed decission about which one is best. Anything that helps spread the idea of Linux as a viable desktop OS is going to help, not hinder the effort to educate the public.

    The idea isn't to change everyone into a drone (leave that to corporate software), but to ease them into the idea that MS isn't the only thing you can use to operate a computer. In this sense, anything that educates the consumer to alternatives is a Good Thing. Maybe they'll still like Win2K, who knows, but with the knowledge it is not the only choice.
  • I don't think that anyone (with any sense) will claim that Linux is 100% scalable from the 386 with 4Mb to the you_can't_afford_it hardware. However, Unix OS's are. Linux makes a good low end, if you outgrow that, then you can easily switch to a commerical Unix such as Solaris running on a 64 processor [sun.com] machine, or OS/390 [ibm.com] running on whatever number of processors you care to specify.

    NT gives you no such migration path. If you outgrow the amount that PC hardware can support, you're stuck. And while a 8-X system is much more powerful than PC's were a few years ago, they are still many orders of magnitude smaller than the Enterprise class systems I mention above.

  • Would it be a good or a bad idea to wear my white labcoat (see here [mpinet.net] and here [mpinet.net]) with a Linux shirt underneath?

    My labcoat's pretty groovy looking (I wear it to my high school on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays) and people seem to like it a lot; I was just wondering if this could be damaging to credibility any.
  • What apps, exactly, are you looking for. Personally, I've been using RHL for about 4 months, and wouldn't dream of going back. It's not that I'm a Unix guru or the OS is easier to use, but the support is free and exceptionally good.

    Also, many non-technically oriented people have no clue what an OS is (i.e. don't know that a computer can be run without Win98) and don't care. For them, Linux makes just as viable a word processing web browser as Win98 (bit cheaper, too).
  • unfortunately a lot of GPL ppl really do seem they are some kind of socialist heroes of the working class. to real socialists its kind of amusing
  • no you should dress up like a stormtrooper
  • 99.44% of Slashdot readers have never even SEEN Windows 2000. The fact that they are judging it before they see it demonstrates that they have an entirely non-technical agenda, and that they simply want Microsoft products to fail, regardless of technical quality.

    Either that, or they don't understand that it has absolutely nothing to do with Windows 95. A majority of Microsoft haters I've met have never even used Windows NT but think that their experience with Windows 95 makes up for it. They use their experience with Windows 95 to judge Widnows NT and spread lies as a result ("Windows doesn't haven't command history", etc.)
  • You do realize that this event further perpetuates the notion that GNU/Linux exists because of Microsoft, not despite. This is really unfair to many of us. A teacher at my school has a rather faint idea of what the operating system is about. He thinks it is for people who hate Microsoft. I fear he may be right.

    I must ask. What does Microsoft have to do with GNU/Linux?

    I can see that much of this event has already been planned. Perhaps it would be wise to have the attendees of this event wear formal dress.

    It is also notable that actually most people interested in computers at all usually already know what GNU/Linux is, or rather "Linux". But many of them think is an operating system from people who hate Microsoft.

    I sincerely hope that this event becomes a Pro-GNU/Linux event instead of an Anti-Microsoft event, but it seems like you are setting yourselves up easily for the latter.

    Microsoft has nothing to do with GNU/Linux.
  • God himself could compete if he really tried. I'm sure CNN would switch to pillars of fire & 100' waves in New York, or maybe a magnitude 12 quake somewhere or other...

  • A Serious question..... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I use Linux at work, the RH flavor, and it is nice for the business. BUT UNLESS linux can play MY GAMES, and it can't, with the exception of a few tired ports by LOKI there is no way I am switching and ya know what LOTS of people say the same thing. If you want to compete with Windows do it at home and do it through entertainment. ie games and DVD, The Linux community is stepping in the right direction with the DCSS and getting some response from vendors but they are the wrong kind Ii am afraid. Games are driving the hardware market LINUX should try and jump on that wagon for momentum..otherwise I think the end is fairly plain for LINUX. They will provide M$ with some great idea which will be rolled into some release of M$ and things will continue the same way for 15 more years...sigh PLEASE someone compete on the desktop with M$....
  • Its a very simple secret:
    Technology that is difficult and complicated to operate is inferior technology.

    Oh, and of course: Technology that shows you nice hip windows and is easy to operate but doesnt work well is an even more inferior technology.

    I personally know how to administrate UNIX. But I also see its shortcomings. If you dont, you may be blind.

  • An Appalling Idea (Score:4)

    by HoledUp ( 137668 ) on Monday January 17, 2000 @07:40AM (#1365111) Homepage
    The very idea that there should be a Linux rally in conjunction with the W2K release is appalling. It will do nothing to promote the use of Linux, and will probably do nothing more than result in PR damage.

    Face facts -- aside from a different approach to development and marketing, Linux and Windows are the same thing: operating systems. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. If one or the other were to just disappear, some tasks would not be performed well when the other stepped in to fill the gap.

    While I spend most of my time in Linux, simply because I enjoy using it more than Windows, it's not all things. I'm limited in my ability to surf because of an underpowered browser (Netscape) and a lack of plugins (Macromedia Shockwave and a workable Realplayer, as well as Windows Media Player formats that nothing in Linux can handle).

    I do a lot of webpage design, and Linux has serious shortcomings in this area. While I can code by hand in any text editor, or use Bluefish [linuxbox.com], it is simply more practical to use Homesite in Windows.

    Office software is another area sorely lacking. Staroffice comes close to filling the bill, but in a world where MS Office has set the standard, asking users to trust their productivity to underpowered and incompatable Linux equivalents would simply be wrong.

    And such a rally would do nothing to correct this situation. Constant bashing of MS has done nothing in the past. It's preaching to the choir when done in venues like /., and makes Linux users look like Trekkies with their rubber ears and toy phasers when done in public.

    Time should be better spent writing code for Linux. See something that's lacking? Create it, or improve on what's already available. That is the whole idea behind Open Source software. Windows got to where it is partly because it does what people want it to do. As buggy as it might be, if it didn't fill a need, no amount of monopolistic practices would have caused it to spread the way it has.

    I have no desire to turn on CNN the day of the W2K release and see a bunch of Linux Geeks who can't get a date and have too much time on their hands waving stuffed penguins and burning Windows CDs. I would rather be able to walk into my favorite software store and find useable products made for Linux.

  • What if Win2K is good? What if it works? What if it's the greatest thing since sliced silicon?

    It still won't be free.
    ---
  • This is exactly the sort of thing M$ does. I remember being a t Netscape Developers Conference and there were Microsurfs outside handing out copies of ie and invitations to a M$ party with free beer and t-shirts. (I gave my shirt to a bum on the street :)) Anyway, let them have a taste of their own medicene. The point is to tell people that would be stupid enough to buy w2k that there is a better solution, if the linux gets some publicity at Bill's expense, it's fine by me.

    The revolution will be televised!
  • On CNN:

    Microsoft Releases W2K
    CNN will present 24 continuous hours of live coverage starting at 6am EST (3am PST) February 16, 2000. Join anchors Wolf Blitzer and Christiane Ammanpour as CNN visits various sites around the world as midnight on February 17 and the release of W2K dawns on each of the world's time zones. Featured are live reports from Paris, Toyko, Rome, London, Newfoundland and New York, as well as a countdown of the top 100 events in Windows history.

    (And yes, it will be almost this bad.)

    ---
    Tempfiles fugit.
  • From a multi-billon dollar company you can expect well designed, ergonomic, secure, stable, and easy to use stuff. Unfortunately, the company in question doesnt deliver it (and I dont mean Red Hat).

    From a bunch of loosely organized hobby programmers you cannot expect anything like that.
    Impressingly the stuff delivered by this bunch is superiour in many regards when compared to the things delivered by the specific multi-billion dollar company.

    Still, it is a mistake to lie to people about Linux. Linux is not easy. Not to use, not to administrate. This will improve. But it isnt now.

    And people should be aware of this before they try it.

    I personally was, but I started with kernel 1.2, anyway.

  • It's not the design of Unix, nor security issues with both OS-es. (Kerberos is a very reliable security system, build in win2k btw, just fyi :)). Security is a matter of knowledge. Both systems force the administrator to get books, do studying and get practice skills before implementing a site.

    What sets both OS-es apart is the focus of the 2 OS-es. Both OS-es have total different designphilosophies. You can only on a very very global way compare the two, with general featurelists like 'has webserver, has filesystem with auditing capabilities etc'. nothing more.

    Unix takes years to master, but so does NT. The GUI is making it look like it has a low learning curve, but there are a lot of small glitches a person has to know before you really master NT, like you also have to know on Unix.
  • "Stupid enough to buy w2k" ? Um have you tried windows 2000? Wouldn't it make sense to buy it if it worked for that person? Or is every Windows user now "stupid" as Linux is obviously a better solution in every way imaginable? Hold that banner up high smartin and chant "Linux is all about choice, the only choice we let you have is Linux"
  • Why doesnt RedHat do a commercial? This would boost the public awareness.
  • Actually if you speak to the beta testers, the majority will tell you that W2K is indeed the coolest thing since sliced bread. Of course every Linux advocate will claim that beta testers are all really microsoft employees who's past times include eating babies and planning to take over the world.

    Ignorance is bliss. The ignorance of Linux advocating Microsoft haters is second to none

  • I agree that it could be a great idea. But only if the Linux advocates are good spokespeople.

    Public relations is extremely difficult for any uncoordinated group. While diversity of opinion is a great thing for enlightened minds, it can be presented by others as evidence of division, mob mentality and logical inconsistency. This will always give corporate entities an advantage in this field.

    Plus, any linux gatecrashing event could turn into a complete PR disaster if any Linux zealots end up doing something stupid. It's not inconcievable that M$ might use some agent-provocateurs to achieve exactly this.

    I don't think I can stress this enough - Linux advocates need to be extremely calm, polite, helpful and professional at all times. Anything less and you do the open source movement no good at all.
  • It appears to be childish to the audience. And anyway, having major M$ and Linux events at one the same day is like using an orange-and-purple wallpaper. It just looks afwul.

    If we were in business, we would look very ugly for having this event happen on purpose during the Win2k release. Even Judgie Jackson would disapprove such behaviour - we'd better give Mickey a fair chance to compete with us! Also, we show that Win2k matters by trying to compete with it.

    Hey, if win2k is not important for you, then this date also isn't. If you plan to use Win2k, well then the Linux demo might not be your favourite. If you plan to use both, then you might say that there is no need for such a direct attack, because both have its goods and bads.

    I keep saying that OSS is a great alternative to M$ bullpoop, but that we must offer it as a free choice, not as "you're either with us or against us".

    It's... It's...
  • Your intentions are good: informing people of alternatives is always a Good Thing (tm). That way people are really able to make choices. However, I get the feeling that you couldn't plan your event on a more worse date than you did. It's perhaps hard to buy, but on that day, journalists simply want to report win2k-win2k-win2k. It's like advertising for soccer during a superbowl break.

    If you really want to inform people who have no clue that there ARE alternatives, DO so: contact sites and magazines those people go to/read and tell your story. You get much more attention.

    Just my 2 dollars :)
  • Yes, there is a learning curve. But just because you have to learn something new doesnt mean you have to trash it. I dont know about most people but I like to think for myself. When I first heard about linux (sept 1994) I was amazed at what control and power it gave the user. I had never used unix before only waited for the day I took COS 250 (Unix programming in C) to get my CS login on our digital Unix boxen in the CS lab. But here was a Unix like OS that I could install for free on my home PC. I didnt know a thing about it but was ready to learn, and at that time you archied/gophered HOW-TO's inorder to do anything.

    The concept of Virtual consoles blew me away and the fact that It came with a free C compiler just made me allocate more for it than DOS. I think Linux is ready for the desktops of those who are willing to learn something new everyday and not those who would rather "just do it".

    Each OS has its strengths and weaknesses lack of applications for Linux. Lack of stability for windows (NT/95 Go ahead I dare you to install SP6 on your mail server) Just use the one that you feel is geared towards your personality.
  • Hmm...perhaps it would be more fitting to get some MS folks to dress up as stormtroopers?
  • As far as I'm concerned, it does. I did not switch to Linux becasue I hated Microsoft--in fact, I was one of the biggest brainwashed Microserfs there are. I switched because I was completely sickened by Windows' performance, and was so tired of BSODs and GPFs that I started looking for an alternative. You see, I think Linux advocates hate Microsoft so much because they've come to realize just how badly they've been screwed--and they're out for blood :). I know I am.

    As far as I was concerned, Linux stands for stability, reliability, and performance.

  • You are the exception. (Score:3)

    by Mikesch ( 31341 ) on Monday January 17, 2000 @08:13AM (#1365129) Homepage
    If people want to get Linux into the average consumer market's hands, there are quite a few things that need to be done.

    1) Lock everything down. Any service running at all is theoretically vulnerable to some form of attack. While it is great the you can administer through telnet and everything else, the average person has no use for it. Open ports have no purpose on most consumer's machines. Uncle Bob isn't going to be telnetting into his box to read his mail. If someone's UNIX guru son decides to set up a box for his parents that he can take care of remotely, great.... but if you are doing that, it probably isn't too much trouble to go through the machine and open up the services you need. It is, however, a lot of trouble for the average newbie to go through and lock down unneeded services. Linux gets a bad name if a major exploit is discovered in sendmail and half the consumer market is vulnerable to it..... say goodbye to that security reputation. The average consumer we are marketing it to wont know how to apply the patch, they only know that their box was rooted and all the personal data they had on it was taken.

    2) (Getting off the topic of your post, but I'm ranting) The user should never have to touch a CLI. Keep in mind this is a consumer we are talking about here... one who probably couldn't figure out DOS, let alone the intricacies of the mount command every damn time they wanted to put a cd in the drive (yes, I know supermount is coming). Screw make, screw RPM... For the consumer market, Linux needs something like Install Shield... a lesson should be taken from windows here... everything can be done from the GUI, adding programs to the Start Menu does not require editing a text file, installing and removing software does not require foreign command lines.

    Before you start saying that Linux is viable for home users, look at who we are talking about here. Linux is not yet an alternative for:
    1) The 16 year old girl with an AOL account who wants to talk to friends on ICQ.

    2) An elderly person who is already having trouble seeing, the current font support in most UNIX web browsers is lacking, text just looks blocky and it is sometimes hard on my 21 year old eyes, I wonder what it looks like for those 60+.

    3) The teenage boy who wants to play the latest game (support isn't quite there yet, plus the drivers for a lot of common video cards suck. I believe the TNT2 under Quake3 is an example)

    4) Mom, who wants to do word processing and print stuff on her recent HP Printer (most of those printers coming with the computer deals at Best Buy are Win printers)

    6) Dad, who wants to balance his checking account (are there any viable Linux alternatives to quicken out there)

    7) Anyone who wants to browse the web on their brand spanking new computer from $MAJOR_MANUFACTURER. I have yet to see a new system for under 1000 bucks that comes without a winmodem. If your talking about Linux as a free OS, lets do some math here:

    1 Copy of RedHat, about 50 bucks (its the one everyone buys because it's well known, right?)
    1 Basic lousy hardware modem (probably won't connect any better that a win modem), 60 bucks

    Total cost: about 110 plus tax.

    1 copy of win98, about 99 bucks plus tax(ostensibly free because they bought it with their computer).

    Looks like Windows is ahead on this one, especially since it does everything the average consumer needs right now. Yes, it is unstable, but for most applications, it doesn't matter. I personally have never lost any work due to a crash. BTW, I'm running win2k final right now, and am working on about a 2 week uptime. I have not had it crash yet, the only times I have had to reboot were after I added new hardware, which autodetected perfectly.

    Linux is good for:

    1) Sysadmins

    2) Hobbiests who like to screw around with Unix for fun.

    3) "Power Users" who tend to do a lot of work and need an OS that can keep up with them.

    4) People who have it inflicted upon them by sysadmin family members, who want to lock it down so they don't get any 3am support calls. I personally would rather have my family running win98 that they could play with and install their own crap on. My family can install anything they want without having to call me about it, and it usually doesn't screw up, but when it does, a reinstall (of the program)gets everything back together in short order.

    BTW, before anyone labels me a M$ supporter, the minority of my computers run windows. OS's I'm currently running on my personal machines:

    Win2k (main box)
    Win95 (p100 laptop)
    Solaris 7 (Sparc2)
    Linux (suse) (p90, k5-133, 2 486's)
    BeOS (Cyrix MediaGX)

    I use Windows as my main operating system because I can do nearly everything I need to on it. I switch among the unices when I want to do development or networking stuff.

    Don't say Linux is viable for the average user, because it isn't... yet.
  • >It's not the design of Unix, nor security issues with both OS-es

    I absolutely disagree. An example for the basic design flaw of UNIX may look like this:
    Why has a subsystem intended to deliver email the right to overwrite my partition table (or anything else)?
    Answer: It shouldnt have. It =automatically= shouldnt have.

    The original design of UNIX wasnt tailored to security. Otherwise something like telnet never had existed (and people would have used SSH or similar instead...). There are numerous other examples. UNIX is a patchwork. A good design isnt patchwork.

    design philosophies:
    Its easy: Both OSes serve the same purposes (run server and desktop applications, do this secure, stable, and easy to use). A design philosophy that doesnt lead to as system that flawlessly fulfils its purpose is a flawed design philosophy. Both are flawed, unfortunately.

    >Unix takes years to master, but so does NT

    Yes. But I believe that a good design wouldnt require this at all.

    Administrating UNIX is no problem for =me=. But I do this for many years now, and I pity everybody that starts with this right now.
  • "Well that's a great idea, but not too many windows users just jump at a $80 - $200 upgrade. Hence why you'll still find windows 95 on quite a few computers."

    Actually, I still have W95 dual booting with Linux because W98 absolutely sucks, and there's nothing it can do that I can't make W95 do.
  • Hmm, how many times have I pointed this out? Oh, well, once more won't kill me:

    Linux == Server OS
    Windows == Desktop OS

    No, Linux is not quite ready for wide-spread desktop use. I do think that it's easy enough to use (try Corel--wow is it simple), but there's a lack of consumer software available for it. True, you or I may rather jump on Freshmeat and download what we need, but the average joe would rather walk into a store and actually pay money for something! As silly as that seems, when you can download for free, people seem to think commercial software is better. Linux will likely change their thinking in that area, but the change will be slow.

    But that isn't who we're targeting! We're not preaching to the AOLers and newbies, we're preaching to the potential sysAdmins and managers who would benefit very much from Linux in their workplace (although any desktop users who want to jump on board are certainly welcome :). Linux is a server OS, and in that area it does present a formidable foe to M$. In fact, in the webserver market, Open Source has already mopped the floor with IIS. It will take a while for Linux to catch on on the desktop, but I am confident it will. However, this is the market that Microsoft has the monopoly, so the fight will be messy. But stop criticizing Linux for not being ready for the desktop. It's not! We never said it was! Give it time to become a little more robust and user friendly.

    Might I point out that Windows2000 is really the next version of NT, thus not for consumers either.

  • And Bill Gates said it even more humorously:

    "Given the company that Scott McNealy speaks about most, I've concluded he works for Microsoft."

    Scott is not exactly one to talk about vendor lock-in. That is, unless he's figured out a way to run HP/UX or Tru64 Unix on a Starfire.
  • Babies, the other white meat.

    If you want proof, just type babies into the Win2K OpenGL screen saver. You get spinning baby-cooking recipies to use when your machine reboots during a BSOD.

    Note: I've been testing this OS since it was NT 5, so no flames from the anti-anti-MS crowd please.
  • The problem with that approach is that Win2k is not good. I am a student at Purdue, and one of our CS labs has been beta testing Win2k for quite some time, always with the latest build straight from Microsoft. After using and inspecting the system, I can safely say that it is seriously flawed. I even prefer WinNT 4.0 over Win2k. Unless Microsoft makes some serious changes before the release, Win2k will teach the world a lesson about bad system design.

    I would support Linux demo day not necessarily to promote Linux, but to save small businesses from needlessly throwing lage sums of money away.
  • "Linux is much easier to administrate, you only need to dive deeply into the good old unix cruft to get it (3 or 4 years should be completely sufficient)."

    Not so good, isnt it?

    When would you NOT want a trained professional admintrating your network? Why the hell should a servor OS be user friendly?

    If you need a point-and-click interface to adminstate a network, you have no business administrating a network!

  • I have Windows 2K beta 3 Professional, Server and Advanced Server--I gotta tell you, deffinately not worth $1700 to me. Sure, it has a nice point-and-click GUI, but who needs that? I've found that a command-line interface can have a higher learning curve, but it saves so much time in the long run.

    You're forgetting--many people here, many Linux users, are sysadmins of some kind, or at least run some kind of network.

  • I'm surprised by all the negative comments about having some public Linux events on the day of Windows2000 release. I agree there shouldn't be people picketing stores, or trying to disuade people from buying Windows2000. But let's be objective here.

    Linux can't afford multi-million dollar ad campaigns. The suggestion for linux enthusiasts to go out and make some noise about the OS is a great idea.

    And, in response to the comments about "how would you like it if windows rallied users to protest Linux releases.".. you've got to be kidding. Can you picture a bunch of guys in suits and ties dressing up as 4 color flying windows icons or that cute little paper clip and picketing outside a CompUSA. I'd like to see that. ^_^

    Cheers.
    -Paul
  • > I keep saying that OSS is a great alternative to
    > M$ bullpoop, but that we must offer it as a free
    > choice, not as "you're either with us or against us".
    Agreed. But most people a)don't know that there is a viable choice, or b) if they have heard of Linux, are not going to go out and install it on their own. This gives them an opportunity to see what Linux is all about and find out about the local Linux community.

    I concurr, the date might not be the best, but like I said below(above?), most people are not doing something on the 17th itself. They're doing something that weekend(19th) or waiting another week before doing anything. It's the principle more than the actual event details that matter: Let people know that there is choice.
    --
    Deepak Saxena

  • I can see the storyline unfolding:

    Just as Darth Gates and Linus Skywalker come to the epic final battle, and Darth prepares to utter the famous "I am your Father" line, he has a fatal exception error, followed by 3 BSOD's, in turn causing him to do a hard boot, therefore trashing the Death Star's filesystem and rendering it no more useful than a planet-sized paperweight!!!

    I know I'd be first in line.

  • a lack of plugins (Macromedia Shockwave and a workable Realplayer

    Huh? you can get Macromedia for Linux here [macromedia.com] and Real Player for Linux here [freshmeat.net].

  • We've had this discussion on our local lug listserve, i've heard many positions on it, and can only come to the conclusion that it's a one of the worst ideas.

    Linux has not come this far by going head to head with the fud-master!

    Unfortunately many linux enthusiasts are starting to emulate the ways that the Opensource movement has despised.

    Advocacy is something that is done on a daily basis, not just for one event. I wonder how many of the rocket scientists here on /. are actively participating in their local Linux User Group? , and if one's not available, starting one? Here in Phoenix we have a couple of very active LUG's, with leaders that are motivated and actually follow thru, to make every meeting worth the time to attend.

    I will not be participating in any W2K/Linux activism, instead I will continue to work with our LUG, which is currently developing a pilot project to introduce linux into our local school systems, and insuring that our teachers have the skills required to utilize these systems. As well I will keep plugging along, enhancing my linux skills so when the business requirement at work comes, and it's between a NT box and a linux box, i can effectively and with confidence recommend and implement Linux.

    On another note, if your going to write an article or rebuttal on the win/lin debate, use the following article as an example on how not to introduce more FUD into the industry. This guy had an excellent opportunity to take and admin's comments line by line and give facts, but it was not to be, the linux-nazi rears his ugly head once again.
    Lame Linux Rebuttal [osopinion.com]

  • Well, why do "trained professional" programmers demand integrated graphical development environments for they work? Why do most of them refuse to exclusively work with vi, some xterms, and some scripts?

    But the user interface is not the main beef I have with UNIX. Its the flawed design and amount of chaos below that interface.

    Microsoft had a chance to do a fresh start and create a new and well designed system. But, as we now, they didnt use that chance.
  • who cares about public awareness? I care about software that doesn't suck!

    Get your priorities straight!!!!

  • As has been pointed out, this could be a really bad idea. Completely apart from the risk of annoying Microsoft, looking petty, etc., scheduling against Microsoft's release will fail because it doesn't underline Linux's real advantages. This should be about why people should want to use Linux instead of why they should hate Microsoft.

    To do that, we should take advantage of a positive, Linux centered event, and the release of kernel 2.4 seems like a perfect opportunity. It's an event of roughly comprable significance (within the community) to the Win2K rollout, and it provides an opportunity to show Linux's strengths. You could point out that when you want to start running the latest version of Linux, you only need to download the latest source, make it, install it, and reboot. No upgrading your hardware because of system bloat, no hideously expensive upgrade cost, and no waiting until Service Pack 1 comes out until it actually works as promised.

  • There are IDEs for Linux.

    And you go on about it's flawed design, but without an explanation of whats got you so pissed, and how it could be done better! Stop being vague. If you have a specific problem with it, say so.

  • Scott is not exactly one to talk about vendor lock-in. That is, unless he's figured out a way to run HP/UX or Tru64 Unix on a Starfire.

    Okay, what does that have to do with vendor lock-in? I mean, really, those other OS's have their own chips that they run on.

    -Brent
  • please note that FreeBSD advocates don't seem to need to resort to such dumb stunts.

    Well FreeBSD isn't doing as well as Linux PR wise. Maybe Linux advocates know something about marketing their product that FreeBSD advocates don't.
  • I dunno where you get all these pessimists bashing Linux Demo Day (probably the same bunch that didn't understand why the Casio MP3 watch was cool)... doesn't anyone remember The Great Linux Revolt of '98 [penguincomputing.com] for the Win98 launch? That was cool and got plenty of media attention.
  • You're creating a "Linux Advocacy Day" ?????

    Come On! Don't you understand that by doing this, you're only putting the ball further in Microsoft's court by giving them power over you? You're letting them force you to whine to the public about how "Linux is soooo much better" and "Microsoft is the Devil Incarnate" and all that crap.

    People, especially consumers, don't like cry-babies.

    Make every day a Linux day. Don't wait until Microsoft makes a move to make your own!
    ----
    Lyell E. Haynes
  • And your flamming me over a suggestion? perhaps you are the one who should evaluate your priorities ;)
  • >There are IDEs for Linux.

    Yes, they point I wanted to make is that professionals want nice easy to use stuff, too!

    UNIX: The original design was nice. But if you go on with a nice design for 30 years it gets pretty crufty. Just look around in your file system and in /etc and you should see what I mean.

    For security: programs should not be allowed to access anything that is not their business. If any app goes wild it can trash my whole user directory. And if it is a service that for some trivial reason needs to run as root, you are dead. This is bad design.
  • "marketing their product"? What the fuck are you talking about? Have I just stumbled into an MBA class by accident? Christ, the worst thing about the increasing popularity of Linux is that drivel like this becomes more and more common with every passing day. Oh, well, goes with the territory I suppose. "Marketing their product" indeed! Be off with you, you pointy-haired wretch!
  • What do you mean, "Linux can't afford multi-million dollar ad campaigns"? Linux is an Operating System, remember? I bet it can't vote or drink beer either. If you mean, Linux distribution companies, then I think RedHat for one can afford to spend -- and I'll bet does spend -- quite a bit on advertising these days, don't you?
  • I think most people talking here are not actually reading the website. The idea is not to bash M$ but to inform people that they have a choice to in OS. I do agree that the timing is bad, but unless you get some publicity there is no other way to get the events out to Windows everyday users. Unless someone starts advertising, either through donations or from their own pocket, the only way that a choice is even going to be announced to most people is through word of mouth. Now that is good enough for a while but when you would like support to improve many of the standards in the computer industry. Now I think the idea behind the Linux support day is good but timing definitely needs to be looked at again.
  • It may not sound nice, but however you look at it, a stunt like linuxdemo is marketing, and a big reason why Linux is more popular than BSD is because Linux advocates have been better at marketing.
  • That sounds more like a bug than a design flaw... in which case someone is bound to fix it if it's a big enough problem.

    And I'll concede you /etc, although I'll take /etc over the Windows registry any day!

  • I've had more than my fair share of "anguish" to be polite with NT. However, I've also been using Win 2000 for the last four months. It *is* stable, surprise. I have had it up for weeks on end as a desktop machine (endless games, most not even meant to be played under NT, some specifically warning against it), and all fine. My only problem was my fault, installing an incorrect driver. Safe mode, de install and life was okay again.

    To save myself from the cries of "Microsoft apologist", I also run Linux and OpenBSD, extensively.

  • That's pathetic. Talk about out of context quoting.

    eight CPUs on one server, 256 MB RAM blah blah ... blah blah? Oh, I forget, this is the bit where he mentioned '8 GB', the bit that would destroy the argument you make in the next paragraph inflating your ego by the fact that it talks about a two gig machine.

  • doesn't anyone remember The Great Linux Revolt of '98 for the Win98 launch? That was cool and got plenty of media attention.

    Er... no. I don't think they do. Mind you, they probably don't remember the Win98 launch either - and the Linux Revolt of 98 will thus be remembered even less than if it had happened in any way of significance at all.

    Basically, people don't care. Today's news is today's news. Tomorrow's news is Today's news tomorrow. Today's news is forgotten tomorrow, except by a select few.

    To become one with the supreme Jungian uber-consciousness, one requires mindshare. Which requires much higher saturation than one geeky fan-boy weenie roast.

    Simon
  • The very idea that there should be a Linux rally in conjunction with the W2K release is appalling. It will do nothing to promote the use of Linux, and will probably do nothing more than result in PR damage.
    Face facts -- aside from a different approach to development and marketing, Linux and Windows are the same thing: operating systems.
    I hate to break this too you, but holding a PR rally for YOUR competing product at the same time as a competitor IS a standard PR trick. If you think that Linux shouldn't stoop to this sort of thing, that is an ethical decision, and quite possibly right - but that doesn't make it a bad thing to do from a PR viewpoint.

    Each has its strengths and weaknesses. If one or the other were to just disappear, some tasks would not be performed well when the other stepped in to fill the gap.
     Another dubious point - if Windows disappeared, I suspect you would be astonished how fast Linux ports of the major Windows apps would appear; however, I can't see this happening anytime in the near future, can you?

    While I spend most of my time in Linux, simply because I enjoy using it more than Windows, it's not all things. I'm limited in my ability to surf because of an underpowered browser (Netscape) and a lack of plugins (Macromedia Shockwave and a workable Realplayer, as well as Windows Media Player formats that nothing in Linux can handle).
    Yep, Linux as an OS is undersupported; this isn't news, and the fact that Microsoft propriatory formats and packages aren't being ported is probably more a matter for the Merkin DOJ to sort out, rather than anything we can do.

    I do a lot of webpage design, and Linux has serious shortcomings in this area. While I can code by hand in any text editor, or use Bluefish, it is simply more practical to use Homesite in Windows.
    I can't really comment - I *prefer* to code by hand in a plain text editor, but then, I am not a graphic artist or a website designer, but a programmer. Anyone who has the artistic and design skill to make a website more than just a row of links on pretty buttons has my admiration :+)

    Office software is another area sorely lacking. Staroffice comes close to filling the bill, but in a world where MS Office has set the standard, asking users to trust their productivity to underpowered and incompatable Linux equivalents would simply be wrong.
    I agree - one of the thinks I *really* want to see from the DOJ decision is for Microsoft to be FORCED to port their propriatory packages (Office, any web stuff, possibly some of their development tools) to their competitors environments. They already do Mac versions of most of these....

    And such a rally would do nothing to correct this situation. Constant bashing of MS has done nothing in the past. It's preaching to the choir when done in venues like /., and makes Linux users look like Trekkies with their rubber ears and toy phasers when done in public.
    Sorry, but I disagree - when only one point of view (ANY point of view, even if the person/organisation has the best of motives) has full media attention, then the public are being "herded" towards that point of view. There NEEDS to be a choice, so that those with half a braincell can make an informed decision.
    I doubt anyone is suggesting the Linux Geek Pride Movement blockade Richmond, burning effigies and breaking Win2K CDs into many glittering shards (and if *I* was in charge of marketing, I would see each Win2K CD so broken as income without needing a support department to field calls :+)

    Time should be better spent writing code for Linux. See something that's lacking? Create it, or improve on what's already available. That is the whole idea behind Open Source software. Windows got to where it is partly because it does what people want it to do. As buggy as it might be, if it didn't fill a need, no amount of monopolistic practices would have caused it to spread the way it has.
    Again, I hate to shatter your illusions, but most of the Microsurfs can't even IMAGINE using an office suite that isn't identical to the one they have always used; mind you, the legal community seem to have a similar attachment to Word Perfect so it cuts both ways

    I have no desire to turn on CNN the day of the W2K release and see a bunch of Linux Geeks who can't get a date and have too much time on their hands waving stuffed penguins and burning Windows CDs.

    *I* don't want that either - but it *would* be nice for there to be someplace for reporters to go to get nice soundbytes to put up against the pre-audience-tested ones Richmond will have had opinion-polled and expert-designed ready for their now months overdue Win2K release.

    I would rather be able to walk into my favorite software store and find useable products made for Linux.
    I'm not so fanatical about Linux as that - I would like to be able to walk into a suitably large software store and see the SAME packages on each wall, where the only difference is the little OS flash in the corner of the box - you should be able to pick up the same box on the Linux shelf as the Win9x shelf and there should be one to match for BeOs or OS/2... It is't going to happen though.
    --

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