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Linux Software

Opera for Linux 170

Posted by CmdrTaco from the operazilla dept.
Migrant Programmer writes "Opera Software has finally announced a prototype of Opera for Linux. It will be shown at the Expo this week.. a speedy, efficient browser for a speedy, efficient operating system. Check their news page and the Project Magic page for more information. "
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Opera for Linux More

Opera for Linux

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  • The MDI is the primary reason I use Opera. When you are doing searches across multiple engines, nothing is more irritating than having 20 million instances of Netscape/IE floating around. Opera does a good job of containing them and at the same time permits quick switching using the KB. So the GUI's not as pretty as the Beasts, but its faster and in general quicker than the competition. At least that's true in my experience.

  • Nice... (Score:1)

    by Micah ( 278 )
    I'll certainly give it a try, but I probably won't fork out money unless it's demonstrably better than Netscape 4.5 and Mozilla.

    Does it have SSL?
  • Hello! No matter WHAT toolkit they use we'd have to pay for Opera! It's not a free browser. I'm GLAD they're using Qt. End users don't have to pay for software written in Qt unless the developer WANTS us to pay.

    You should also say "Death to Opera" if you say "Death to Qt", because Opera is just as "anti GNU" as Qt is (and that is perfectly fine to me).
  • Maybe you don't want it, but I sure do. I would love to have a browser that isn't gtk based, and now I will have even more options. If you want to use Mozilla/gtk, that's fine; not all of us do.
  • It may not be the best UI out there, but it certainly beats Netscape's UI. At least in Opera I can quickly toggle between images/no_images with a button, rather than having to go through multiple menus to do so. Same with turning on/off user-defined fonts, font sizes, and colors (vs. the page's defined fonts, font sizes and colors).
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • thought those times were long behind.
    not that ive given much heed to the commercial
    software world anway...
  • I'd rather use Communicators STANDARD keys - you know, CTRL-C, CTRL-V, arrow keys, etc.
  • can it also disable blinking & animation? I wouldn't mind the ads so much if they'd just sit still . . .

    I'm still using netscape 3 over having load images in the menu rather than buried in configuration, and for the alt-num sequence to go back several pages at once.
  • The Galactic Civilizations III port for Linux was using QT. However, that project has apparently fade quitely into oblivion (perhaps accelerated by the Civ3 announcement).

  • Opera Software itself doesn't do the porting generally. They had tried to contract it out to several other people, but no one would finish the work.

    Things look much better now that someone at least stepped up to the plate with something. I'd call this the first real announcement.

  • Ding! (Score:1)

    by Static ( 1229 )

    • What's the problem with a commercial app using QT? That's what QT was designed for...


    No problem at all. In fact, I was wondering if we'd ever see a real commercial app using Qt! I'll willingly pay for an Opera/Linux license. I've already paid for an Opera/Win32 license.

  • Ding! (Score:1)

    by Static ( 1229 )
    • What's the problem with a commercial app using QT? That's what QT was designed for...
    No problem at all. In fact, I was wondering if we'd ever see a real commercial app using Qt! I'll willingly pay for an Opera/Linux license. I've already paid for an Opera/Win32 license.

  • The MDI model mightn't be necessary in Linux. I know with modern window managers it's easy to isolate all my Netscape windows away from everything else. But in Windows95, that ain't easy.

    Hopefully, this will be configurable. If so, I know I'll try it both ways.

  • I can't see myself sticking with Opera till I die. I'll give Mozilla 5 a try in time. But Opera v3 is better than Netscape v4 now.

  • And the new one, TLS, 'cept that doesn't go through most proxies. It also does 128-bit encryption, since it has been developed outside the good-ol-paranoid US.

  • They haven't put anything their web site about that one way or the other. There may have been discussion about that on their news server, but knowing the Opera guys I doubt they would have committed one way or the other.

    Sorry. You'll have to take your chance. (I'm happy to pay for an alternate platform, but I recognize not everyone will be.)


  • Some people just don't get it. Who cares if AOL
    'owns' Mozilla? The SOURCE is available for our
    prying eyes to see and digest - we can continue to
    implement thing with Mozilla, or take the IDEAS
    clearly portrayed in the Mozilla code and re-implement them if AOL goes stupid.

    GPL isn't about the ownership if code - its about the freedom to express and convey ideas in ways that only code can.

  • Linux is not simply about 'making things work better'. Its about making US work better. Without the source, WE cannot learn and improve. WE become victims to some 3rd party developer. We've all already been down that road (MS), lets not keep repeating the past.

  • Hmm. It'll be interesting to compare Mozilla/GNOME to Opera/KDE in terms of resource usage. Somehow I doubt either of them's going to run on my 486/33 8Mb laptop, more's the pity. Perhaps I'll buy a Thinkpad (once IBM come up with a Windows-not-included package).


    --
    W.A.S.T.E.
  • [...]
    All I ever get is a bunch of libraries with no executable. I just don't get it.

    Go to the binaries area of mozilla.org [mozilla.org] and download a build. Look for apprunner, like the FAQ/README/whatever it's called, says. Run it. Presto, Mozilla. Well, sort of, anyway. If you still have trouble, try asking someone for an exact file to download, and exact commands to run.

    Oh yeah, another thing, it might be a good idea to make a special Mozilla user: that way your existing Netscrape bookmarks, etc. can't get screwed up.


    --
    W.A.S.T.E.

  • Motif is the standard. There's no getting away from it. Does GTK support X resources properly? Check out Netscape.ad some time to see how & why that sort of thing is useful. I'm not saying GTK isn't good, mind you, but there's a pre-existing wheel, and it's a wheel that's been attached to Unix's axles for a while now. Personally I don't really care: I primarily want Mozilla because there's no decent browser on Linux/Alpha yet.


    --
    W.A.S.T.E.
  • Been trying that for a while. It segfaults.

    Daniel
  • I've tried segfaults. It doesn't even bring up a window. I think the program is:

    int main(int argc,char argv[])
    {
    char *test=0;
    printf(test);
    }

    :-) Seriously, it sounds like it'll be cool when it finally works.

    Daniel
  • Just so long as you are not trying to correct a mistake in your Address.
  • Yay, another commercial product to go along with KDE... oh wait, KDE is "open source" sort of... I will stick with GTK/Mozilla and the GPL thanks. I can theme Mozilla with GTK themes, and integrate it with GNOME, so who cares about this thing?
  • Mozilla is GTK already, and who cares about the AOL thing? I know I don't as long as we get a good browser in the end. And they don't have "nothing" to show for it. I download builds every once and a while. NGLayout is *VERY* fast, and puts Opera to shame, the only things really lacking are the UI construction. A lot of the skeletal work is done, or approaching that stage.
  • Haha. And that "non owned alternative" is essentially a commercial product with NO SOURCE CODE? Yeah, good argument.
  • You complain because Netscape retains ownership to the code that it wrote? You obviously have not read the GPL, or else you would see that code licenced under the GPL also causes said code to remain owned and copyrighted by the author. Code does not have to be Public Domain in order to be Free.

    The fact that Netscape/AOL still retains ownership of much of the Mozilla code is irrelevent. Mozilla's licence prevents Netscape/AOL from denying us our rights to the code that has already been released.
    ----

  • Like some others here, I will hold out for Mozilla when it is finally released. I just can't see any compelling advantages to using a proprietary browser instead of a free one.

    A free software browser offers much more customizability, feature potential, and long term credibility than a proprietary browser. It's also a lot easier to fix bugs in free software. If other people want to use Opera, that's fine. That's their choice. It's not my choice.
  • I'm considering a purchase of Opera35 for my win95 box (damn, things about to expire & I haven't needed a full OS install after I removed the compression) but if U purchase the 95 version does this allow U to get the Linux version?

  • and Gecko is going to be free as well. When a stable version comes out I'll use it.

  • and

    • you can save images with pages
    • resize pages by percentages
    • lot's of preferences to play with
    • does all this and does not crash (much), mainly due to low HD space!

      • though I dont like the fact it store the pages title in the drop down box, should store the URL
  • And you can set Slashdot, Freshmeat, I Cringely, *and* User Friendly as your startup page.
  • If Opera supported automatic proxy configuration, I'd use it.


    --
    As long as each individual is facing the TV tube alone, formal freedom poses no threat to privilege.
  • am I the only one who thinks Opera's UI is clunky?
  • | Personally I don't really care: I primarily
    | want Mozilla because there's no decent
    | browser on Linux/Alpha yet.

    Now there's an idea for the Opera folks. Put out an Alpha Linux version. The old (100898) release of Mozilla is usable on Alpha/Linux systems - I mean, that's what I'm writing this message on, but it's certainly not stable and light on system resources.

    I've tried compiling Mozilla with GTK on my Alpha and unfortunately all I get is a segfaulting apprunner.
  • How does shuffling your proxy around help security?
    --
  • I've tried a couple of those on linux, but never got them to run. I tried one Windows build, and that ran great. (Hey, perhaps I could just run that one in Wine)

    Anyway, what kind of experience have others had with the nightly builds for linux. Is it the builds that are fucked up, or my system?



    --
  • Imagine how many sites we could bring the slashdot
    effect to with one of these...:)
  • That's a problem...how? That you'll have to pay for Opera? Big deal. Their page goes to great lengths to point out that Opera isn't free, never was, and never will be. Cough up the $35 and show that Linux has a future worth investing in.

    Is that a problem because it's part of the Yet Another X Toolkit Syndrome? YAXTS has been going around for 15 years now, there's no stopping it. Everyone wants a cooler toolkit. That only means once you buy Opera it'll have a bigger footprint on your disk. (So much for the "Browser on a floppy" claim they love so much.)

    What's your point?

  • Soon they'll be an interview with Troll Tech... "We can't promise we'll never sue Mozilla..."
  • Title says it all.
  • Take a look there for screenshots and some information on Mozilla and its development.

    You might be surprised, but they have progressed very far and have quite a lot to show for it. It will really make a splash when it comes out.

  • RTFM! (Score:1)

    by edgy ( 5399 )
    You should do

    export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/dir/where/mozilla/is
    export MOZILLA_HOME=/dir/where/mozilla/is

    before you try to run apprunner
  • I remember when AOL took over Netscape and everyone was itching for another choice such as Opera. Now I guess for some people Opera is worse than AOL because the unfinished mozilla is open source. Enough of this bickering. Opera is good because is means we have more choice and competition.
  • You can change the buttons, you can change how links look on the screen, you can zoom in on a website (not just text but graphics as well)...it's the closest thing to a hacker's browser and unlike lynx, you get pictures too.
  • I said "close". If it was running on unix then you could really call it a hacker's browser. That's going to happen soon
  • Check out:
    http://floach.pimpin.net/
    http://reveal.unpaved.com/
    http://www.customize.org/
    http://www.stardock.com/

    Reveal and Dimension are only for Windows. Maybe they'll consider porting to linux...
    Seeing the Microsoft "E" in windowblinds sends a shiver down my spine...
  • Linux is also about users who want an OS that's fast and doesn't crash like Windows.
  • The BeOS screenshots I've seen (http://www.operasoftware.com/graphics/be-opera-1s m.gif) don't show any MDI. The linux version may be similar
  • maybe they use the browser that invented the tag and a whole score of proprietary non-standard tags.
  • .
  • Get over this GPL purity. You won't get a GPL browser that comes close to Mozilla (netscape 5 will probably include proprietary crypto code) or Opera.
  • If they added a feature to knock off stupid /. posts (KDE is evil because it's not GPL! No gnome sucks because redhat is MS!,etc), the web would be completely irritant free
  • Opera is sweet. It's small, it's fast, it rarely crashes, and it's the only browser (other than Lynx) that can really be used without the mouse. For users who prefer not to use the mouse (or find it difficult or painful thanks to RSI), this is a godsend.

    It also lets you optimize your real estate by killing the scroll bars and menu bars when you don't need them (keyboard users!), and has one-key or one-click ways to turn on/off colors and backgrounds and images and such, which is a huge win for browsing all those unreadable or ad-intensive sites.

    It's the only browser that I've felt was developed for me and not for Joe Random or for major corporate entities who want to control the user's experience. Except for Lynx; and, well, sometimes you need images and decent frame support.

    Yes, it's not quite as slick as Netscape in some ways. I DON'T CARE. It's so much better 95% of the time that the occasional awkwardness or Javascript glitch (I usually have javascript turned off anyway) doesn't bother me.

    Yes, I'd like it to be free, and I don't like Opera's attitude about free software, but life goes on.

    Yes, Mozilla may well be a wonderful browser, and I hope it will be, but it's not there yet; while Opera is a port of a browser which is already wonderful.

    Whether with Mozilla or Opera, a future without Netscape 4.* sluggishness and bloat and a bus error every 30 damn minutes of browsing will be an excellent thing. My life will be better.
  • Clunky?
    Try getting rid of all the toolbars and just using keystrokes... tres svelte!
    Z= back one page
    X= forward one page
    Q= back one link
    A= forward one link
    F2 = type in an address
    F5 = reload
    etc., etc.

    Personally, I find keystrokes much quicker and more convenient than pointy-clicky.... that's why use linux when I can!

    And Opera is MUCH quicker rendering pages than those OTHER browsers :) Not to mention that it actually makes efficient use of it's cache...
    .
  • KDE may not run but Opera definitely will... it kicks ass on a 486... even in Win95.
    .
  • What are smoking? Can I have some?

    Personally, I can and will use whatever apps I see fit... I have no need for a DE but even if I did what's to stop me from using a QT-based Opera with Gnome? Or Mozilla with KDE?
    What's the problem with a commercial app using QT? That's what QT was designed for...
    As long as they don't link it with other people's GPL'ed code and try to distribute the binaries ;)
    .
  • I've been using 3.51 every day for months now.. it's crashed twice... Netscape has crashed three times and I use Opera more...
    Unfortunately, Opera adheres to W3C standards and doesn't render bad HTML very well... ;)
    .
  • why? I hate to have to reach for the alt key when I arrow back to the previous page.
    Oh... and Ctrl-V / Ctrl-C work like normal.. duh.
    BTW, how can you mention Netscape and STANDARD in the same sentence without cracking up? bwahahaha
    Used the BLINK tag lately?

  • Nice... (Score:1)

    by GypC ( 7592 )
    Yes. SSL 1 & 2.
    It is better in my opinion unless you visit a lot of sites with bad HTML (i.e. ZDNet), in which case it may render them funky.
    .

  • Cool (Score:1)

    by benbean ( 8595 )
    I say woohoo! It's about time Netscape had some worthwhile competition on the Linux platform to pull them out of complacency. The "everything must be free" zealots can continue to use Netscape and the "must have something that doesn't crash and doesn't use 80 meg of swap" folks can go Opera until a suitable free alternative comes along. Provided it doesn't use Motif. Yuck.
  • THey weren't going to support linux because they didn't have enough interest from the linux users. They offered to do a port to any OS whose users showed enough interest. The linux user base didn't cut it. However, it's grown since then, and I guess they have decided that it's in their best interests to do a port.


    BTW, don't believe everything you hear on newsgroups ... (-;
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi

  • Have they cleaned up there JavaScript problem yet?

    Last time I used it they had a MAJOR problem with buttons that triggered script.

    The Pope

  • Yeah and they looked like hell and required you to use a poorly engineered C interface. Like a round peg in a square hole.
  • I've downloaded, used, and erased Opera every six months since 1.3 or whatever. It's always been faster than Netscape or Internet Extorter, but it still crashed constantly--usually a clean crash, unlike IE or Navigator, but still....

    Have they cleaned up their act? Are they fast *and* stable now?
  • > Grow up the command line is dead!

    ??? What are you talking about ???
    Are you a developer ?
  • "The command line is dead?"
    This must be Microsoft or Apple minion. You all know that scripting is dead too, right? Bwa ha ha ha!!

    And speaking of scripting, lynx makes an awesome http/ftp client for scripting. I have it in a script that automatically downloads all the day's news and reads it to me through my Festival voice synthesizer.
  • Why are you so rude? He didn't say anything bad about QT or TT.
  • Why am i posting in this old news snip
  • Well, on the one hand, it's nice to see Opera getting released for Linux, just because it seems to be a fairly popular browser (for a non-Big-Two offering), and the more popular software gets ported over to Linux, the better off Linux will be in general. When I used Opera on my old 486 DX2/66 running Win95, it was a good deal peppier than Netscape or IE; there were a few annoying things about it, most notably the 30-day expire time.

    OTOH, I've never really liked the Opera peoples' attitude ("Free web browsers are worth exactly what you pay for them; pay for ours and use it, it costs money, therefore it doesn't suck"). I've heard good things about Mozilla's progress, and look forward to trying out a stable version of it when it comes out.
  • Im sorry but I think this is great. I use opera at work, because Im stuck with Winblows. Im tired of netscape in Linux, maybe this will be a great alternative to Netscape. The only thing I have seen faster than opera is Lynx and I love lynx :)
    Natas
  • Hey, it doesn't sound like you have seen some of
    the new GNOME/Enlightenment.
    Windows is one damn ugly O/S IMO, linux is one of
    best looking OS's there is (IMO also)...
    the CLI has colors (in bash at least) and the GUI
    can be customized to any way you want it to..
    if its ugly, then you made/kept it ugly.
  • Hey Pal, smarten up.
    This guy can not like Troll-Tech and thats fine
    he can say he doesn't like it, and thats fine.
    Personally, i would have prefered GTK, honestly.
    But chances are i'll still get a copy of Opera,
    because QT isnt bad either.

    Don't have a fit because he doesn't like QT and
    you do. Because thats immature shit.
    Next time ditch the 'lameass' shit and replace it with something reasonable.
  • Instincivly, I would agree with this.

    But in reality, a hacker is a person who edits
    source code. Not some 13yr old who thinks hes
    cool becuase he can oob win32 boxes on irc.

    Ergo, a hacker is less likly to be interesting
    in win32 because its not a good coding o/s and
    its source is closed. But its not impossible.
    (FYI, I use OpenBSD, i'm not a win32 guy)
  • Yeah! I'm using Lynx right now in fact =)
    Its fast and stable, not flashy java type shit
    just good old text =).

    And I totally agree with you, i would sure like
    to see tables support with curses, and even
    frames. It would be ugly at the lower text resolutions, but a the higher text resos (say, 132x42+) it would be sweet.
  • I love Opera, been using it almost exclusively for two years. I lost faith in Netscape after 3.x, and I have erased IE from any system that I have control of.

    Opera is basically shareware. I have no problem with that. They bootstrapped a project to hire
    programmers and port it to other OSes, now finally Linux will get a shot. I am very pragmatic about this. I didn't mind sending them $35 to get me a browser I can count on, that is fast, that crashes (as they all do) at least with some sensibility, and that is more-standards oriented than the others.

    Sure, I would rather have them give it to me for free. But let's get real. Here are two guys operating out of their homes in Norway, offering a not-stupid browser to the world for a fair price.

    Eventually I think they may wake up and GPL it, but for the time being give credit where it's due, they provide a reasonable alternative to Netscape and IE. I have hopes for Mozilla but it ain't there yet, not for me anyway.

    By the way, because I like Opera a lot, I read through all the comments on this, and it simply reinforced my view that reading AC stuff is not worth the time. Those who have something interesting to say are outblathered by 10:1.

    --------

  • When are you people gonna realize that a nice GUI and Quality software are NOT mutually exclusive?

    Of course they aren't. I don't like Opera because of its GUI. I like it because it's HTML standard compliant (more so than either of the heavy-hitters), it has an MDI and the ability to scale pages as they're being viewed, and because it has a footprint smaller than a gnat.
    If noone is gonna use it, why do you mak it?

    Clearly, a bunch of people here will. Read some of the posts. Read Wired's article on Opera [hotwired.com]. Read anything, for chrissakes.
  • As an unabashed Opera fan, I'll have to admit that I'm not completely crazy about the UI, but, hell, except that it's kinda hard to configure, I don't have any problem with it. I will give up a little on the point-and-click for the multiple windows and the speed . I also like that fact that you can turn off the formatting, maximize a frame and have cached/no graphics besides. It's the best browser for surfing ad-laden sites like ZD-Net.

    I'll buy one, though I'm not really crazy that Troll-Tech made it...

    Chris
  • I remember some smart-ass remarks from opera saying the would never support the GNU/Linux
    platform. It might have been in a newsgroup or something. I have not used it because of these statements, and I probably never will.
  • Actually, the kfm in KDE1.1 still won't work correctly with Yahoo's cookies, and there are several other things that it's missing (like javascript) which are required for some sites.

    That said, it's a great tool for reading documentation and looking through directories of HTML files since you can have the tree view on the left side showing all of your files.

    Now, if it just had the command line at the bottom like Midnight Commander, it would be nearly perfect.
  • Netscape is a big fat hideous pig, that prevents me from truly insulting those trifling widows users. The sooner this b_tch can be replaced the better. This is the only Linux program that 'crashes' regularly without help - actually it consumes too much resources so I kill it.

    Opera is ugly, it may be fast but I refuse to spend hours using the product, and why no tabs. I admire the two pigs in the garage myth but the product is trash. Considering its relative youth the product should have been better - must be taking lessons from M$. I have yet to see why anyone would want to use Opera much less pay for it. For 30 I can get the LinuxMall smorgasborg and have change for a Banks (actuall at 180 to 1 a case of Banks). Give me lynx instead.

    Mozilla seems to be the messiah coming to save us, we will soon see if Netscape (and the nice people at http://www.mozilla.org ) can mend their profligate ways and produce a stable browser.
  • Have they cleaned up their act? Are they fast *and* stable now?

    I've been really happy with Opera 3.51. It's crashed on me less than a handful of times (maybe 3 or 4) but I could never remotely claim to have been crash free with Netscape. Opera is more configurable and faster.

    Nicest of all, Opera lets you disable embedded sounds. It makes the web almost irritant free. I did say _almost_. ;]

  • I'm still using netscape 3 over having load images in the menu rather than buried in configuration, and for the alt-num sequence to go back several pages at once.

    You can turn off animation. I would like to be able to go back more than one page at a time; that's probably the feature I miss most. But image loading is supersweet in Opera. You don't have to dig it out of the config to change the option. Just one click (on the camera icon in the document window) or hit the 'g' key to toggle to one of the three image options. On the fly three-way toggling, baby!

  • As of 3.60 beta, Opera can render the "Mega HTML Periodic Table [dayah.com]." Some drastic changes took place in the way Opera renders tables, but their "What's New" page doesn't say anything about it.
  • How did you get it to go so long? About 5 minutes is what I average. Of course if I use the libc5 version it locks up with unexpected async reply errors before it has a chance to crash, maybe that's the secret?
  • I would rather have a clunky UI than an engine that fails all the time or is slow as dirt and hogs memory.
  • I've already bought one for Windows (and is what I use 99% of the time).

    I will definitely support the Linux version!
    --
    - Sean
  • My one and only gripe with Opera is the crash rate. On average, it (3.51) crashes once a week for me.

    Unfortunately, Opera adheres to W3C standards and doesn't render bad HTML very well... ;)

    That seems to be the problem right there. As soon as you get a page that has more than one <HTML> tag in it (like if someone forgot the / in the </HTML>), it starts screwing up inside. I have found that 3.21 is the most stable. 3.5x's support for CSS is nice, but not worth the drop in stability, IMHO. Luckily, I saved a copy of 3.21, which I still use.

    I dunno if you can still get a copy on the official site or not -- just haven't bothered to check.
    --
    - Sean
  • Sun's Java Plugin???

    Where? Gimme!
    --
    - Sean
  • Hmmm... I've never had any problem with Opera and Slashdot. And I've been using it for about a year.

    Using it now, as a matter of fact.
    --
    - Sean
  • Also Mozilla has been dually licensed under NPL/MPL and GPL.

    Mainly so that GPL'd packages can be included in Mozilla. But it means that people can make a fully GPL browser yourself (although the mozilla team would probably be able to make a better one)

  • Opera lasted the sum total of 10 minutes on my machine...It didn't work well but it sure was ugly!

    When are you people gonna realize that a nice GUI and Quality software are NOT mutually exclusive?

    If noone is gonna use it, why do you mak it?
  • Yeah Lynx is great!!!

    ..I wish it had everything the OTHER GUYS have had for years!

    Grow up the command line is dead!
  • Here Here!!
    What is a browser used for? Browsing! Who cares if its HTML compliant (which it apparently isn't) if the MDI makes cluttered and hard for the average user to use (an like it or not THAT'S who we are designing for - not nerds like us who hang out in \.). That's all a "Browser War" (remember those?) should really be about.
    AC #1 above, you remeid me of a guy I knew in University...he loved this alternative band until they got a hit then into the trash they went. I suspect there are people out their who tout Opera not because they think its a real good (quality that is) alternative to other browsers, but because it's NOT one of the other browsers. How many of these same people will be around when Opera is as big as NS or IE? None of them.

    If you really use Opera because you beleive its a better product, great keep doing it. Otherwise...
  • Check out my post below....

    P.S. a 12 Gig hard drive goes for $300 (Canadian!). So unless I intend to run Opera on a Palm Pilot, who cares about footprint? (And before you blow a gasket RAM is even cheaper).

    If I didn't read a lot I wouldn't be writing here..
    When It come's down to it compliance and speed of page loading etc don't mean dick if the product is not easy to install and use for most people..unless of course you only want it to be used by Linux/Unix hackers. If thats the case, Never Mind.
  • As a matter of fact I am a developer...only I develop for the PUBLIC, you know, those millions of people out there beyond the walls of your university lab who use computers for other things besides hacking into \passwd files. I working on a pretty intense Oracle project right now for a government ministry. Perhaps you can get you nose out of the man pages long enough to enlighten me on how I can get a 50 year-old civil servant with a grade 12 education to use the oh-so popular command line to view 12000 meat inspection licences with ease? How about a cashier or hairdresser? A mother at home doing her taxes or reading e-mail? But I guess if none of them can understand "chmod -f" then they can't join your secret club (which appears to be what you really want).

    And yes I do develop for Windows...not because I LIKE Windows, but because its really the Only game in town (Apple/Mac is a hermit living in the woods nearby). I would much rather use my talents developing for a better, GUI based platform (GNOME or KDE etc on Linux) so that EVERYONE,yes EVERYONE, can benefit form FSF and Open Source, not just command-line commandos who don't seem to like regular people.

    Frankly, if you want to be the "Amish of the Internet" go ahead, that's your choice. What I'm saying is that for the rest of the world, the command line is dead (it died in 1987, didn't you get the memo?) and if it isn't dead, it needs to be killed quickly before it breeds again. Otherwise Linux will never be use by more people than those that frequent this site. You do want everyone to use Linux, don't you?

    Then DIE, COMMAND LINE DIE!!!!
  • I've always reckoned that Backspace was a far more intuitive shortcut for back.

    john
  • I hate the term "user friendly". People balk if they have to learn a different way of doing something.

    I think this says a lot about todays users...

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