Munich Council Say Talk of LiMux Demise Is Greatly Exaggerated 190
ndogg (158021) writes "The rumors of Munich's city government going back to Microsoft seem to have been greatly exaggerated. There was a review of the city's IT systems that was called for by the mayor, but it wasn't solely just to decide on whether to move back to Microsoft. And while there have been complaints about LiMux, they mostly seem to concern compatibility with OpenOffice.org, which may well be resolved by switching to LibreOffice."
Trying to create fire from smoke (Score:5, Interesting)
Honestly, if there is a remote possibility that a change back could help spread FUD, it's going to be pounced upon.
Re:Trying to create fire from smoke (Score:5, Insightful)
I was too busy to make comments when this story came up, but I've worked providing IT for offices for a good part of my life. You can get secretaries to bitch about anything. Moving to Windows so they can use the corporate-blessed Microsoft Office doesn't help that. You will still get bitching and moaning.
You are always going to have problems with any type of "office" app because of the people using it.
Re:Trying to create fire from smoke (Score:4, Interesting)
This reminds me of a story told by some very old time IBM reps.
The Selectric typewriter was newly installed for an executive secretary. She complained that the keys were too hard to press. The full IBM support team came to investigate the complaint. They were originally flummoxed because there is no adjustment for key pressure on the typewriter. However, one of them had a brilliant idea. Inserting a screwdriver into the back of the typewriter, he turned it slowly one way then another while the secretary typed. Eventually she pronounced it "fixed".
Now that's customer service.
Re:Trying to create fire from smoke (Score:5, Informative)
They have a stupid lawyer as new major that has zero understanding of IT, but is in bed with Microsoft. That is what is going on there. The "stupid" is because he makes claims without a shred of evidence and expects them to be believed. Even people from his own party in the city council are calling him a moron (in more polite, but no less clear terms).
Many other municipalities switched to Linux (Score:5, Informative)
...don't know why media keep talking only about Munich. It's not the only city that switched to Linux, several others have. The Italian city of Udine, for example:
http://www.lffl.org/2014/07/co... [lffl.org]
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...and Turin:
http://www.tomshw.it/cont/news... [tomshw.it]
And many other smaller towns.
Re:Many other municipalities switched to Linux (Score:4, Insightful)
...don't know why media keep talking only about Munich. It's not the only city that switched to Linux, several others have. The Italian city of Udine, for example:
http://www.lffl.org/2014/07/co... [lffl.org]
One reason, size...
Munich : 1,4M
Udine : 0.1M
Turin : 0.9M
source: wikipedia (because only order of magnitude matter).
Furthermore, Munich is one of the most influential city in one of the most influential country of the European Union. From the size, Turin is not that far behind, but from the impact both cities cannot be compared. All this explains quite easily the media coverage.
But its quite interesting to see more cities considering this alternative. And with large cities like Turin and Munich doing it effectively, a lot of smaller cities and communes will start to consider open source as a serious alternative.
The open consideration of such an alternative has much more to do with psychology than with technical needs or limitations. Exactly why the media keep talking about Munich. Psychology. Marketing. And failing to understand this is a large part why open source alternative are still so far beyond what they could be.
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Another reason, Germany is seen as a technological/industrial leader. So to the people who know little about computing except what they see in an IT magazine, a German mark of approval is more important than an Italian thumbs up.
Old news (Score:3, Informative)
SN already covered this four days ago.
https://soylentnews.org/articl... [soylentnews.org]
I'm going to bed.
Re:Old news (Score:5, Insightful)
If a site post a story and there's nobody to read it, does it cover the news?
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I'm sure there are people on Reddit (or Digg, or StumbleUpon) saying the same thing about stories posted to /.
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Except on Reddit, Digg or StumbleUpon, they'd piss off more than just one person.
Big deal - SN "covered" it (Score:2)
It's a common courtesy to give the slow kids a head start.
WTF is up with the title of this article... (Score:3)
The English in the title is all wrong. It should read "Munich Council [says] talk of [Linux] demise is greatly exaggerated"... Editors? Are you there? Is Malda asleep at the wheel as usual?
Greg
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I don't know whether to think you're funny because of all your errors (each of your points is wrong), absurd because of all your errors (each of your points is wrong), or that you've just come out of cryostatis (Rob Malda hasn't been a part of Slashdot for a few years now).
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You are a moron. LiMux is the "Linux Munich" distribution.
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This is British English style. In British English, when referring to certain entities that are made up of many people (such as sports teams), the plural is often used. However, in the case of this story, I am not sure that this would apply to "Council" in this manner.
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Re: WTF is up with the title of this article... (Score:3)
Which is probably the case. 1 idiot mayor says Linux is gone. A whole bunch of council members say it's not.
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Why wasn't it called Munix? (Score:4, Informative)
Munix would have been way better.
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Munix would have been way better.
It is too close to being (and probably is) a derivitive name of UNIX.
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They would have been sued for infringement by the rightsholders to Asterix.
I kid you not... this is actually why we now have linux-laptops.net rather than the original mobilix.org (or mobilix.net, I don't remember anymore)...
Switching to Libreoffice? (Score:2, Insightful)
I not sure how switching from Openoffice to Libreoffice is going to solve their problems. I know that Libreoffice has better compatibility and all, and I use it, but it's still rough to use vs MS Office.
The example I use the most is Mail Merging. It's stupid proof in MS Office, but in Libreoffice it's a literal pain in the rear to do, especially if a Spreadsheet is involved.
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Re:Switching to Libreoffice? (Score:5, Funny)
...but in Libreoffice it's a literal pain in the rear to do, especially if a Spreadsheet is involved.
A literal pain in the rear? I think you're not doing it correctly.
Re:Switching to Libreoffice? (Score:5, Funny)
I'm a little scared to think of what "Spreadsheet" means in that context.
Obvious solution (Score:2)
>> they mostly seem to concern compatibility with OpenOffice.org
This a problem of their own making, as a direct result of doing an incomplete rollout.
Why are they even continuing to use or even allow Microsoft-proprietary formats in the first place?
The could easily require that anyone submitting documents to them use ODF (or basically any open standard other than Microsoft).
LibreOffice 4.3 has made it for me (Score:2)
Re:NT is best (Score:5, Funny)
impressive that you still managed to write that, desipte regular windows update reboots, BSODs and flying chairs.
Re:NT is best (Score:5, Insightful)
I still regularly get "need to upgrade reboots" on my Windows machine. It's atleast once a month and always seems to pop up when I'm playing a game of LoL or CS:Go.
Yes, I use my Windows as a Wintendo. Got a problem with that?
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I still regularly get "need to upgrade reboots" on my Windows machine. It's atleast once a month and always seems to pop up when I'm playing a game of LoL or CS:Go.
Yes, I use my Windows as a Wintendo. Got a problem with that?
And I suppose that Linux is better?
Just this past month I can count several Linux vulnerabilities, the patch for which requires a reboot:
http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-... [ubuntu.com]
After a standard system update you need to reboot your computer to make
all the necessary changes.
The same goes for all of these:
http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-... [ubuntu.com], http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-... [ubuntu.com], http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-... [ubuntu.com], http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-... [ubuntu.com], http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-... [ubuntu.com]
For this one you have to restart your Unity session:
http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-... [ubuntu.com]
The security notices also includes a number of patch
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Wow, Ubuntu is behind the times.
Fedora can patch and dynamically replace the running kernel without a reboot.
Ubuntu is just one distro of linux, if it is not doing what you want then try the others.
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Wow, Ubuntu is behind the times.
Fedora can patch and dynamically replace the running kernel without a reboot.
BS. Fedora uses RPM, which is even worse at ensuring that patches become effective.
You are deluding yourself and confusing the fact that you are not instructed to reboot with reboot is not needed. Your complacency means that you processes lingers on in their vulnerable state. Fedora does not use ksplice (Oracle owns that now) and ksplice does depend on the patches being specifically prepared, anyway.
Not all patches require system reboot (same as on Windows). But patches that affect e.g. running network daem
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For this one you have to restart your Unity session
restart your Unity session
Unity session
Well there's their problem. They are using Unity.
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Does apt-get (or yum) automatically restart every service and program that uses a library that it has updated?
No? Then you can't just 'walk away' if you care about security in the slightest. Your running Apache will continue using the buggy old OpenSSL version until you restart the service. You *could* take your system down to single-user "emergency" mode,
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All software has holes, but atleast Linux lets me upgrade my machine when I want it to, not force me when I'm right in the middle of something.
I still get those from Windows on a regular basis. It still annoys me. And if you say "Oh but that's so easy to fix, just do xyz" - well, it's dead-easy to fix a lot of things with Linux commandline too. And just as much a valid solution to a given problem. So there. Neither OS is better than the other, but some have more strengths than others.
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Re:NT is best (Score:5, Informative)
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Well, that makes one of us.
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Re:NT is best (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, but how many times does it suggest that you reboot for application and/or major library installations? With the exception of glibc, never. Even then it is a suggestion, and as you point out you can choose to ignore it.
Now, how many times have you waited a month before applying updates, applied them, been forced to reboot only to find that there are now more updates and you have to reboot again? How many times have you tried to shutdown and the system treated it as a suggestion?
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Yes, but how many times does it suggest that you reboot for application and/or major library installations? With the exception of glibc, never.
You words reminded me of one of my early Linux experiences. I needed to upgrade glibc so I deleted it and... well, I was intending to copy the new file over but all of the commands were dynamically linked so no commands worked.
Utter terror! Everything I tried would not work... all commands errored out. What to do? What to do?
So I had Netscape Navigator (3 I think) open. It was statically linked. So I opened the new glibc with it and then "saved" it in /lib.
Commands started working again *sigh*. Disaster ave
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But installing the updates is critical for computer security. I would feel at risk of getting some random malware if a Windows computer fell even days or weeks out of date on the updates.
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Re:NT is best (Score:5, Insightful)
It has already been pointed out that he was using Windows :-)
Seriously, you blame the operator when Windows insists on rebooting to complete an application install, requires a reboot for updates that then subsequently cause the system to fail to boot, and makes you wait at the coffee shop for an extra ten minutes after you decide to leave because you can't power down the system, plus an additional five at start time when you start Windows again? Try to be serious.
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Re:NT is best (Score:5, Interesting)
If constant reboots and BSODs are still your impression of Windows, you should give it another try with a more recent version. Things are quite smooth these days, thanks to the NT6 kernel.
Err! Win NT6.0 was Microsoft Windows Vista and we know how everyone loved that. Even with NT6.1 (Microsoft Windows 7) you still could get constant reboots and BSODs (first hand experience). Still NT6.2 (MS Win 8) and NT3 (MS Win 8.1) may me stable to you but that GUI IMHO looks like something designed by a 5 year old.
Over 7 years ago I switched to a Linux distro and have never looked back.
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Over 7 years ago I switched to a Linux distro and have never looked back.
Mostly because after all this time, Linux still doesn't support head rotation.
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If constant reboots and BSODs are still your impression of Windows, you should give it another try with a more recent version. Things are quite smooth these days, thanks to the NT6 kernel.
Err! Win NT6.0 was Microsoft Windows Vista and we know how everyone loved that. Even with NT6.1 (Microsoft Windows 7) you still could get constant reboots and BSODs (first hand experience). Still NT6.2 (MS Win 8) and NT3 (MS Win 8.1) may me stable to you but that GUI IMHO looks like something designed by a 5 year old.
Over 7 years ago I switched to a Linux distro and have never looked back.
I get more BSODs and reboots with my iPhone 5S (and kernel panics) with Apple products than I do with my two windows Machines. My iPhone 5S reboots itself about 3 times a day (blue screen and all, yes its true, you can youtube to see for yourself). I get a kernel panic on my work MacBook pro about twice a week, and have to reboot my personal MacBook pro about once every week or two. Meanwhile my two Windows 7 machines get rebooted at most once a month when patch Tuesday rolls around. So I guess it just
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Even with NT6.1 (Microsoft Windows 7) you still could get constant reboots and BSODs (first hand experience).
Really? What were they caused by? Surely if they truly were constant you would investigate. BSODs are almost exclusively triggered by problem drivers (and often an issue with the underlying hardware) much like kernel panics on unix-like systems. The most common offender on Windows is graphics drivers (it's easy to identify with the information on the screen) and the most common on Linux that I have found is power management drivers taking down the system. If you are using faulty drivers or hardware you are
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pot, kettle black. you've obviously never used a linux desktop.
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Re:NT is best (Score:5, Informative)
Hmm... That's not what [techtimes.com] I [tomshardware.com] heard [thehackernews.com].
Re:NT is best (Score:5, Insightful)
you should give it another try
Why? What compelling features does Windows offer that I don't already have? I want to know about Window's value proposition. With software as a service becoming the predominant model, the software you need to get work done is available on any platform. At home I work on Linux, when I travel I take my Android tablet and work just fine on that. I can write and post stories, with pictures and video, from anywhere.
A few years ago the Microsoft faithful used to make such a big deal about if you wanted to do "real work" you needed Windows. Doesn't seem to be the case anymore. It's great the blue screens are mainly in the past but I'm still missing a reason to get a Windows device.
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Re:NT is best (Score:4, Informative)
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I'm sorry to say that, for some companies, there is a value to having a Windows system available. I do part-time IT work for a translation agency, and the vast majority of source documents come in as Microsoft files: Word, PowerPoint, and the odd Excel spreadsheet. I have to keep a Windows 7 computer around to take some of those incoming source documents and "downgrade" the file, cleaning them up of any macro viruses and other similar junk at the same time, so the translators' computers won't be at risk
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Yeah.. great, but Word renders documents differently computer to computer.
The use of .doc or .docx for that purpose shows a lack of understanding of how the file file formats work or what purpose. The proper file format for that purpose is usually PDF.
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The use of .doc or .docx for that purpose shows a lack of understanding of how the file file formats work or what purpose. The proper file format for that purpose is usually PDF.
Good luck telling your customers that they're sending you the wrong type of documents. I'm sure your competitors will be more than happy to accept documents in any type of format.
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Yeah.. great, but Word renders documents differently computer to computer.
Are you sure you know what you're talking about? I can see the potential for issues with rendering documents from different versions (though I can't imagine there would be much that is particularly show-stopping) but different rendering on different computers doesn't sound right.
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>The proper file format for that purpose is usually PDF.
I know that. But the customers want editable copies, and do not want to go through Adobe or anyone else for a PDF editor. The customers want Word files. Now, tell me how to educate the customers, when the competition will do exactly what they want and so my client loses business to that competition, and your comment will be reasonable.
Absent that critical step, my hands are tied. And so are my client's hands tied.
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You are correct that SaaS has made so much more commercial software available. {but not all commercial software there are still niches where a solution a business is heavily invested in just doesn't have a linux option}
Then there is still the problem that most users still have windows and as a business retraining is not something anyone wants to pay for so who ever has the market share will get used in business. {I think android is making sure that users are turning away from not just windows but also the d
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Why? What compelling features does Windows offer that I don't already have? I want to know about Window's value proposition.
The value of Windows isn't really Windows the OS, but the Windows ecosystem. Essentially, the vast majority of the world's desktop software runs on Windows. There are a lot of fine Linux applications out there, but don't kid yourself into thinking there are replacements for everything people want or need by any stretch of the imagination. Some of it can run under WINE, but that's not always a practical or convenient solution.
If you have all the software you want on Linux and are happy with the OS itself,
Re:NT is best (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yes there was and as I read about it I thought "Oh crap, We have 40k systems that might be effected." but not one had a bsod so I was very relieved {because I have had an update go horribly wrong before I think it was around 2007 .Net 3.0 even though it only effected a small percentage of system it was still bad}.
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And in my small office, we had one machine that was affected. So what's your point? Clearly MS screwed up with bad updates. You were just lucky, probably because you buy from a single supplier, whose machines were not affected.
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We have about a dozen different models and yes even if only one model had been effected it would have been a bad time. The point is that although it happened it's isolated. I have had it happen on linux before too and it was some off the wall hardware specific issues so very few were actually effected. {I eventually swapped hardware to something a little more mainstream because it was a reoccurring theme}
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My point is that your experience is meaningless in the context of how many machines are affected. Yes, it may be a small percentage of machines that are affected, but how small? 1%? .1%, .01%? I have not seen any figures published on this.
PS. Please, please, look up the definitions of "to affect" and "to effect". Make sure you are looking at definitions of the verbs, not nouns.
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Just last week a friend of mine ordered the stock DVDs from HP for his HP 4330s and reinstalled, allowing the install disk to completely reformat and repartition the hard disk. After hours of updates and numerous reboots the system refused to boot and offered to re-install. This was without adding any applications at all, or configuring anything or adding any drivers, etc.
Ev
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And yet involving yourself or your company in the Microsoft ecosystem continues to be a waste of your resources.
For all core business functions, the Linux ecosystem, despite its pimples and occasionally awkward behavior, now offers the better current and future value. And it is rapidly completing its maturation and as it does so its complexion is clearing up and it is continuing to replace its remaining adolescent behaviors with more sophisticated ways of getting along in adult society.
Microsoft's best lo
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You mean like my mousepad becoming non-functional when I bring my Windows 8.1 notebook up from sleep?
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You mean like my mousepad becoming non-functional when I bring my Windows 8.1 notebook up from sleep?
Sounds like an issue with the ACPI implementation in the driver, if that's the case the operating system can't really do much about it. Try installing the latest driver from the manufacturer. I know it's tempting to blame the operating system for every error but in most cases the problem isn't the operating system at all, for example the catastrophic Blue Screen of Death is almost always a driver/hardware problem.
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If constant reboots and BSODs are still your impression of Windows, you should give it another try with a more recent version. Things are quite smooth these days, thanks to the NT6 kernel.
Haven't been paying attention lately have ya?
Last Black Tuesday fucked up a lot of users of New modern great Windows systems
And recently there have been a lot of Windows 7 users who after an update, Microsoft wouldn't accept their genuine legal copies of W7 and wouldn't allow them to use their computers.
Or do you mean some mythical New Version of Windows that won't have any problems at all.
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Haven't been paying attention lately have ya?
Last Black Tuesday fucked up a lot of users of New modern great Windows systems
Less than 0.01% [neowin.net] of Windows users. That may be "a lot of users" in absolute terms - but it is certainly not the big failure you (and Infoworld - the tabloid of tech) make it out to be.
Did MS do a proper jon when testing the updates? no. Did they fail massively? no.
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3 times this year MS has bricked my system with updates. I run a stock install from HP - the only software on the PC is Firefox, LO, Steam, and ARC. All 3 times it's corrupted my system hive. The first time I ended up re-installing, the last 2 times I've just replaced the hive.
There has not been a single update that corrupted the system hive. Never. Ever.
The system hive integrity is backed by multiple mechanisms. Firstly, Windows keeps 2 copies. Secondly, updates to the hive is protected by NTFS journaling. Thirdly, system hives are protected by system protection (on by default) which keeps previous versions using shadow copy service.
If your system hive has been corrupted you have serious hardware issues.
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Linux is for loser hippie neckbeards, Linux is for greedy capitalist pigs, Linux is for average Janes and Joes; Linux is for everyone.
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None of this matters to me. Windows is fundamentally broken on so many levels. They used the universal escape character for the path separator. You cannot assess an open file, even to read it, so you have to shut things down to do ANYTHING. The logs can only be accessed using an API, and unless you register all kinds of crazy garbage, the EventLog has a bunch of empty columns. Creating a Service is the most complicated process imaginable three layers deep.
Even the Help system has been rewritten so may
Re:LibreOffice (Score:5, Insightful)
One word: PDF
People sending resumes as editable document should not be hired in the first place.
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The web-based submission form only accepts .doc or .docx. The real issue is that the braindead HR manager who made that decision should be fired.
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Actively malicious?
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The GP is referring to the classic problem of collaborating with a single document. Party A provides base information, B edits information, A reviews changes and makes further updates. Collaborating with a PDF is called markup, and relies on a single party to be responsible for editing. Not sure if Google Docs does a good enough job on resumes yet to work.
Re: LibreOffice (Score:4, Interesting)
If you don't have all the same fonts installed, this can happen transferring between the same version and patxh level of Word, on two different computers.
Hardly a LibreOffice compatibility issue....
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There are sometimes small changes in table layout too.
One case where I can confirm a small incompatibility with certainty are the backgrounds in table calls. Word offers some patterns there that are missing when loading the document in LibreOffice, for instance dotted backgrounds. This is not a conversion issue, it is simply a feature that LibreOffice does not have.
Things like that are the reason why using Word and LibreOffice in parallel tends to have some friction. So when switching to Linux, best switch
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Hell, at the moment installing the Russian font (well, the rouble symbol) can bluescreen your computer! I'd rather send a word document with bullet points of my junk to employers, I can blame it on Word screwing the formatting and everyone will believe me (snigger)
Re:LibreOffice (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, there are still many small problems, but it really pays off filing a bugreport (with example file) - they have a much better management of bugs than most opensource projects and the chances are good that you will be able to get a fix in a few weeks. I have very good experience with that.
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This.
Their idea of a changelog is:
Problem description.
Before Screenshot
After Screenshot
Example document that triggered bug.
Best fucking changelogs in the world, because they have one of the best bug-hunting projects in the world.
Just send them the file. See if the fix is in the Changelog for the next one/two small releases they do.
Re:LibreOffice (Score:4, Insightful)
Any change to the document would change these bullets.
There are still small compatibility problems.
Yes: MS-Office/Word still has compatability problems with OpenOffice.
Why do people always complain that free s/ware is incompatible with proprietary ones ? OK: in this case he saved as a .docx - mistake, only use document formats that are properly defined, eg .odf - you will still find that MS Word will not import 100% -- in that case where is the problem: MS-Word or Open/Libre-Office ?
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A work center redid my resume with a template they had, the document saved as a docx file. When I went to make a change at home on Libre Office, some bullets in the original changed to a symbol that looks like a man's junk. Any change to the document would change these bullets.
There are still small compatibility problems.
Take a powerpoint file with more than just basic text made in Windows Microsoft Office. Open the file in Microsoft Office for Mac.
Yup, Office is not compatible with itself. I've dealt with that for so long that I've come to the conclusion that a program that doesn't support itself should never be used as an example of compatibility with anything else.
P.S. - Make a pdf file. Making doc files for distribution, like resumes is considered gauche, like typing in all caps.
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Ah, good old Freudian-bullets... That's LibreOffice's killer feature over MS Word, you know?
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I don't suppose you ever heard the term "Laptops and Lederhosen", have you? Munich is where most of the German IT industry is, and population and job growth are still outstripping the real estate market. In that respect, it's the anti-Detroit with its abandoned neighbourhoods.
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I'd be amazed if it was.
My experience is that OpenOffice has less features but they work better. They (OO) also seem to be to be more interested in MS compatibility than LO is. I find that particular fork rather regrettable but Oracle would never have divested themselves of OpenOffice if they had not seen themselves becoming irrelevant.