Linux Desktop Summit Program Announced 121
jrepin writes with this excerpt from an announcement by KDE:
"The Desktop Summit is a joint conference organized by the GNOME and KDE communities, the two dominant forces behind modern graphical software on free platforms. Over a thousand international participants are expected to attend. The main conference takes place from 6-8 August. The annual membership meetings of GNOME and KDE are scheduled for 9 August, followed by workshops and coding sessions on 10-12 August."
Reinventing Windows badly (Score:1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_%28software%29
It took forever to deprecate it. I wonder what "cool thing" will be next.
As a 49 year old militant feminist grandmother. (Score:4, Insightful)
My problem is Gnome / KDE / UNITY all seem to be obsessed with being progressive and messing up common sense schemes that have worked well for years. IMO they should be jailed in the Museum of Contemporary Art and clubbed to death with hardcover copies of Ulysses.
Gnome 2.0 seems to be the epitome of quality design... the menus are all simple and straight forward, good for getting work done.
Re:As a 49 year old militant feminist grandmother. (Score:4, Insightful)
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It's easier said than done if you don't have the time or inclination to screw with things. I prefer defaults that the distribution in question has been made to work best with. So if most distributions are going to start coming with avant garde desktop designs... it's not good for a lot of us. The same reason on CENTOS I install 2 years old MYSQL with yum and enable innodb defaults via config rather than install 5.5 outside of yum. Couldn't be hassled installing and maintaining it without yum. So yes worthle
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Yours is an easy cop-out (Score:4, Insightful)
(NOTE: another AC here: just can't bother with the cookies crap needed to login)
Look -- formally you are right. Still I think the "innovators" have some responsibility to tread with some care and try to be inclusive. As just an example, I watch in disgust and fear the firestorm systemd is causing. Granted, nobody loves SystemV, all that rat's nest of scripts with 90 per cent boilerplate and that. Still, replacing that by an intransparent piece of compiled code mechanism and policy all in one big mess: what is that doing to the hackability of the system?
Other examples: NetworkManager, PulseAudio, *Kit (many of those examples are CamelCased -- is this a CoInciDence?). I'd hope innovators in the realm of Free Software would take care of interested users, leaving for them a path into hacking the system, starting by little config options, through some shell scripting into hacking C. This means cherishing simplicity at all levels. The opposite tendency seems to be in fashion nowadays. The "user experience" of the absolute novice is paramount -- sacrificing the simplicity and hackability of the system by the slightly more advanced user (all novice users will reach that stage eventually, remember!).
This reminds me of a pattern often seen in proprietary software, especially that kind of software where the ones to make the business decision of buying the package won't be those who will have to use it: it tends to be shiny and easy to use for fitst-timers, but far from the optimum long-term.
WTF happened to this idea of the 1970ies that giving the user a chance to improve her understanding of the system should be part of what's called ergonomy?
So: "It's open source. Do it yourself if you don't like it. And now go away" is almost always the wrong answer.
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WTF happened to this idea of the 1970ies that giving the user a chance to improve her understanding of the system should be part of what's called ergonomy?
Amen! What happened to the idea of a highly customizable system with *intelligent defaults*? The defaults make sure that in the simple case of a straight forward install, it "just works" (which seems to be what most people want). But the configuration is there, easily accessible and well documented.
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The default install results in a very simple but useful desktop and easy access to anything you could wish for.
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These are the reasons why I just switched to Slackware with the GSB Gnome packages. It kinda gets "back to basics" as you describe. It's maintainable by mere mortals. It's transparent. And it Does What I Need(TM).
The side benefit is that I don't have to fight 18 layers of abstractions and *compat libs, etc. Nor struggle with half-baked implementations of new stuff.
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The "user experience" of the absolute novice is paramount -- sacrificing the simplicity and hackability of the system by the slightly more advanced user (all novice users will reach that stage eventually, remember!).
Not bloody likely.
The novice user is focused on applications. The OS is only the means to an end.
--- and that is what it will remain. He'll gain confidence and skill in the applications he needs to be productive - or in which he finds some entertainment.
But he will never be interested in spending any time under the hood.
Google understands this. Apple understands this. Microsoft understands this.
But the technical hobbyist, the enthusiast, who has driven the Linux client to a blistering 0.73% share of
Re:Yours is an easy cop-out (Score:4, Informative)
The Network Manager is just a wrapper around ifupdown, so that follows the Unix way nicely...
WTF happened to this idea of the 1970ies that giving the user a chance to improve her understanding of the system should be part of what's called ergonomy?
Apple.
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Most people I know don't want to customize anything, they just want to use their computers to accomplish a task. The difference between an ordinary user and a super l337 hacker who goes as far as adding panel applets is huge.
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That's one of the attitudes that is stalling open source: "If you don't like it, fix it yourself or hire someone to do so". Most people cannot fix it themselves, and forking an active project is a big move which requires a lot of continuous maintenance. It's not going to be practical to fork GNOME just because it has a bad user interface.
And to top it off, the people in open source projects tend to be comcentrated among programmers. If the project needs user interface design, documentation, or something
I agree, but not with Ulysses... (Score:5, Informative)
They should be clubbed with hardcover copies of The Art of Unix Programming by Eric Raymond -- http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/index.html -- particularly the chapter "Basics of the Unix Philosophy"...
Rule of Modularity: Write simple parts connected by clean interfaces.
Rule of Clarity: Clarity is better than cleverness.
Rule of Composition: Design programs to be connected with other programs.
Rule of Separation: Separate policy from mechanism; separate interfaces from engines.
Rule of Simplicity: Design for simplicity; add complexity only where you must.
Rule of Parsimony: Write a big program only when it is clear by demonstration that nothing else will do.
Rule of Transparency: Design for visibility to make inspection and debugging easier.
Rule of Robustness: Robustness is the child of transparency and simplicity.
Rule of Representation: Fold knowledge into data, so program logic can be stupid and robust.
Rule of Least Surprise: In interface design, always do the least surprising thing.
Rule of Silence: When a program has nothing surprising to say, it should say nothing.
Rule of Repair: Repair what you can — but when you must fail, fail noisily and as soon as possible.
Rule of Economy: Programmer time is expensive; conserve it in preference to machine time.
Rule of Generation: Avoid hand-hacking; write programs to write programs when you can.
Rule of Optimization: Prototype before polishing. Get it working before you optimize it.
Rule of Diversity: Distrust all claims for one true way.
Rule of Extensibility: Design for the future, because it will be here sooner than you think.
GNOME: Stop your "War On Users" by hiding user configurations or ripping them out! /Rant off
KDE: Let up with the eye candy for once! Simple is beautiful.
CANONICAL: Admit Unity is a total failure, ask for our forgiveness and never, ever do it again!
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CANONICAL: Admit Unity is a total failure, ask for our forgiveness and never, ever do it again! /Rant off
Taking this into account:
GNOME: Stop your "War On Users" by hiding user configurations or ripping them out!
What would you suggest Canonical do instead?
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What would you suggest Canonical do instead?
A) support Trinity.
B) fork Trinity if it goes the way of KDE4
C) KIS (keep it simple (and cross-platform compatible))
D) hire the right people (i.e., open at least one freaking office in SV/SF)
E) it's all about management
Management has to be well connected to end-users and end-user sysadmins. Management has to know how to review code (diffs) and do good QA (used to be Canonical's leg up on RH). This isn't rocket science. It isn't pur s/w development or pure sysadmin either. It is, findamentally, an issue
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D) hire the right people (i.e., open at least one freaking office in SV/SF)
Why? Because that's where all the developers in the entire world are located?
Re:I agree, but not with Ulysses... (Score:5, Insightful)
What would you suggest Canonical do instead?
Simple: switch to KDE (4.6) instead. It took them a while, but they've finally fixed up pretty much all the problems with the early 4.0 series, and it's a really nice desktop system now, with tons of configurability (unlike Gnome). It could still use some touching up here and there though, but all the fundamentals are there, and the architecture is much cleaner than Gnome, which is basically just a giant mish-mash of smaller projects arranged in a house of cards.
With the resources of Canonical at hand, they could customize KDE with their own defaults and themes, fix up the few rough edges that remain, port over some of the better Gnome stuff to KDE/Qt, etc.
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Simple: switch to KDE (4.6) instead
I beg to disagree with that advice. It seems to me that any "desktop" that causes the menu on which you are about to click to disappear because some notification has suddenly appeared elsewhere on the screen is fundamentally broken. Ditto any desktop where a single blocked desktop-eye-candy-thingy can cause the entire desktop to grind to halt.
There are certainly some pieces of KDE that are quite nice. But I really wonder about such fundamental and obvious design flaws that have persisted through to version
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It seems to me that any "desktop" that causes the menu on which you are about to click to disappear because some notification has suddenly appeared elsewhere on the screen is fundamentally broken.
Hmm, I just tried that out by bringing up the applications menu and inserting a USB drive, and sure enough, my menu disappeared. That's pretty annoying.
Have you thought of filing a bug?
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Kubuntu is made by volunteers to my knowledge, not by Canonical, and really isn't much more than regular Ubuntu plus the basic KDE packages. Ubuntu, OTOH, has a lot of work put into it by Canonical employees. Of course, some of that work is DE-agnostic (stuff like Upstart), but some is not. Canonical makes lots of changes to the Gnome DE, or at least it used to, and now it's pouring resources into Unity, which is a waste of time. My point is, what if Canonical redirected all those paid resources to work
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The premise does not support the conclusion.
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You can ignore them. I have been happily using fvwm for over 20 years now. I don't see why I would need anything else or redo all my customizations.
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You say: Unity.
I don't see any stinking Unity in the program. In fact, I'll imagine that if you wore a Unity t-shirt to that conference, you'd be taken out back and spanked, involuntarily....
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I'll admit that it seems like sheer heresy. Soon there'll be people burned at the stake. Even the saints of Motif would castigate those pesky Unity people.
I hear they even have the apostasy of having primitives for *tablets*.
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Damn right! More interestingly I haven't read a damn thing about XFCE. I use it for years and will probalby never turn over, simply because it's the same concept all the time and I can rely on that. Besides I think XFCE is not bloated as much as other desktops are these years.
Who else thinks... (Score:2)
That it'll end up in a literal deathmatch?
Don't really like where "Desktop Linux" is heading (Score:5, Funny)
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Oh, for trolling sake. Then write your own desktop environment. I hate XFCE and KDE4, but love gnome-shell, for instance. If you are not happy with the Desktop Summit contents, don't go there, or post here. Why wasting bytes here when you have all the choice you need (including cranking up some code?). These people put a lot of effort into a release, and the summit is a great occasion to sit down and try to understand what was rushed, what worked well, etc.
This is free software. Don't like it? Fork it.
Re:Don't really like where "Desktop Linux" is head (Score:4, Insightful)
"Don't like it? Fork it."
Can people PLEASE stop with this bullshit "don't like it? Then fix it yourself!" argument? Like it or not, linux is about communities, ideals, and shared tools now, just like your nation is. You might as well be saying "Don't like the new laws? Then start your own country!". In either case, it's disenfranchising, and wrong-headed.
Re:Don't really like where "Desktop Linux" is head (Score:4, Insightful)
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"Don't like it? Fork it" when directed at users in a sneering manner is snobbery of the highest order.
Re:Don't really like where "Desktop Linux" is head (Score:5, Insightful)
Your parent is merely pointing out that KDE and Gnome have both headed down the toilet, and Unity is STARTING OUT in the toilet. This is obvious to anyone. The bloody desktop developers have turned into wankers chasing stupid directions that are NOT user driven, ruining perfectly good products. They could use an injection of reality. They are screwing up big time. Not in terms of technical quality, but in terms of basic direction. A lot of users care about that. The process is broken. If developers don't care what users want, then to hell with them.
It's not up to users to fork software and develop it themselves in a more sane direction. It's up to developers to get a grip on the real world.
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KDE is already forked, and attempts are being made to make it compile against both Qt3 and Qt4.
http://www.trinitydesktop.org/
Though now with the Rapture, I guess it's time to rename it to Carl Sagan Desktop.
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Re:Don't really like where "Desktop Linux" is head (Score:4, Insightful)
The biggest problem I see isn't the radical design change of Gnome 3 or Unit, but the lack of customization. We once criticized Windows for being fairly rigid in that matter, but Windows now looks in comparison to these new desktop a tweaker's dream. Someting I thought I would never say.
So, in a way I would have to agree they suck at the moment, but I hope the project leaders will come to their senses and realize people like to be able to customize their desktops to some degree.
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have to agree they suck at the moment
KDE4 and Gnome3 have set the Linux desktop back nearly a decade. All of our plans to convert desktops from Windows have been put on hold, indefinitely.
Question is why. Why have these two key window managers not only gotten worse but become worse than any window manager since CDE?
Part of it has t be a lack of design guidelines. It also has to be due to a lack of leadership, designed by committee, lord of the flies and all that. But that can't be all there is. I know this isn't all because a friend of mi
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- the statement about reducing distraction. Its current form actually is very distracting, much more so that its GNOME 2 (seriously, with multiple windows open I have to Alt-Tab, arrow... arrow and that's NOT distracting?)
Alt-tab distracts you from what exactly? Your previous work? The less distraction thing is more about hiding stuff that has little nothing to do with what you are working with. And all the extra stuff (task switcher, quick menu, system tray, workspaces) are just one key press away.
- they seem to be solving problems that I really have not seen anyone bring up. Where was the overwhelming requirement for "less distraction"?
It seems you didn't read discussion about how annoying should the "application is ready" (when in task switcher icons blink). That stuff is very distracting. There were numerous solutions, like make it blink very slowly. Now it is
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Is that the "XXX sucks but YYY is great" thread?
KDE3: good, KDE4: great, Gnome3: sucks, Gnome2: sucks, Unity: I don't care
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where are all the other desktop systems?? (Score:4, Informative)
what happened to enlightenment, xfce, fvwm, python-plwm and all the others? i hate to mention EvilWM (1000 lines of c), or XMonad (1200 lines of haskell i believe) as it's hard to have any kind of meaningful discussion around 1200 lines of haskell, but, seriously, why weren't all the other window managers more seriously represented? oh wait - there's _one_ talk (an overview) on the EFL classes: https://www.desktopsummit.org/program/sessions/quick-overview-enlightenment-foundation-libraries-and-e17 [desktopsummit.org]
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what happened to enlightenment, xfce, fvwm, python-plwm and all the others? i hate to mention EvilWM (1000 lines of c), or XMonad (1200 lines of haskell i believe) as it's hard to have any kind of meaningful discussion around 1200 lines of haskell, but, seriously, why weren't all the other window managers more seriously represented? oh wait - there's _one_ talk (an overview) on the EFL classes: https://www.desktopsummit.org/program/sessions/quick-overview-enlightenment-foundation-libraries-and-e17 [desktopsummit.org]
fvwm is alive and kicking. Unlike this new-fangled trash, it is stable and moves very, very slowly, as everything needed is really there. I have been using it for 20 years, with the same configuration (except for some additional menu entries) for 10 years. Stable and usable as pen and paper. This Gnome/KDE stuff is really quite silly. If they work at it for another 10 years, maybe they will get where fvwm already was 20 years ago.
I use fvwm with Debian, and never had any problems so far. And I am _not_ happ
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seriously, why weren't all the other window managers more seriously represented?
No representative of those registered for holding a talk.
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Gnome and KDE keep on REGRESSING, not PROGRESSING. The current teams couldn't be worse
for Linux than if they were paid Micro$oft agents.
Don't use them. There are plenty of FOSS alternatives around.
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They might do worse if you were a part of them? Your tone doesn't help at all.
If you don't like it - use something else! I'm very happy with KDE4. The fact that you don't like, doesn't mean it's shit. I'm glad not everyone is agreeing on what the desktops should be like - that gives me as a user a selection to choose from!
There seems to be a disconnect (Score:5, Insightful)
between what the devs want to do, and what the users want. In a commercial company, this conflict is handled by management weighing in on the side of users/customers. In OSS projects, the devs have free reins to play with new concepts, technologies, paradigms... whether anyone else is interested at all, or not. My take is that Gnome, KDE and Unity have evolved into cool geek research labs. 5-10 years from now, we might be using some ideas that originated there. Right now, most users want and need a simple interface that Just Works and emulates the Windows they know, not some buggy half-finished avant-garde stuff.
The main quality of an OS is to let me use my hardware and apps with minimum fuss.
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But in commercial products you are stuck with the product for good or for worse. Best example, is Windows Vista or Office with the ribbon interface. In OSS products you are free to choose and to change.
You want a simple interface, why you don't just use Xfce or Enlithement? I like where KDE4 is heading, I dislike Gnome 3 and Unity.
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there's 2 issues with changing:
1- it requires skill and knowledge, and it is frightening. As a newb linux user myself, I'm not sure which UI I should be using, and I don't have the time nor guts to install the handful of them (unity, kde, gnome, xfce, lvwm...) that seem major. Testing a UI in depth takes time (say 1 week of use, 1 day os setup ?) and may fail (my last attempt to switch to xfce led me to a completly passive screen, with a nice background image, but I could not find any menu, input zone.. nor
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between what the devs want to do, and what the users want.
You meant to say "and what a few, loud mouthed users want." Right?
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not really. Have any the the devs actually asked typical users what they wanted, and double-checked that they weren't being lied to ?
"typical user" needs to be defined, it can be a Linux user, a typical PC user, a knowledgeable computer user, a home user...
"being lied to" is frequent, there is usually a huge discrepancy between the lofty things people say when asked to think about something (yes, widgets are nice, yes, I want an interactive connected desktop...", and what happens in reality (this PC has no
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My own take is that they've become chasers of the next big thing. They want to be able to be described better than Mac rip-off or Windows rip-off.
But yes, long live gnome 2.
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In OSS projects, the devs have free reins to play with new concepts, technologies, paradigms... whether anyone else is interested at all, or not. My take is that Gnome, KDE and Unity have evolved into cool geek research labs.
Unity is a commercial project. It just happens to be under GPL. It's controlled by Canonical alone. It is not a community project. Not at all.
Qt is in a similar position, although Nokia is moving it into a community project.
GNOME and KDE, yes, they are community projects. And you know what? They don't any mere user anything. They never have and never will.
Most do all their work unpaid as a hobby.
And both projects never evolved into geek research labs because both projects were never ever bound to the will o
Sounds like a good idea, just... (Score:1)
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...just what exactly do they need KDE and UNITY for?
What does Unity have to do with the Desktop Summit?
Bitch Bitch Bitch (Score:2)
Well let's all demand our money back!
Reading through the comments you'd think that people were being forced to use KDE or Gnome, because there isn't anything else, that they had to pay for, it and weren't given the source codes.
There is a reason for the complaints (Score:2)
You would do well to listen to users, because they are like, well, the users. If developers who see themselves as designers keep screwing up the design, nobody will use it, and if nobody will use it, nobody will want to support development, and the platform will wither. My guess is that, due to the disgusting crap coming from Gnome, KDE, and Unity, one of the basically far superior desktops such as Xfce or LXDE will gain momentum, fill in the few missing pieces they have, and save the day for the platform
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After using Gnome 3 for a while I notice more and more how old design was broken. Sure, the new one isn't without quirks, but it is not because of design, but more like lack of polish here and there.
One could hope that these new deigns will die, but the actual developers seem to actually like it. I seriously doubt that there is substantial amount of gnome-shell bashers, who actually develop for gnome-panel (btw, in the new gnome panels are still there and are developed).
And if the Xfce or other "classical"
I run applications, not desktops (Score:3)
It seems the the desktop developers have forgotten what computers are for. They're used to get things done; email, web-browsing, documents, spreadsheets, scientific calculations, video games, etc, etc. *THAT* is why I bother getting a computer in the first place. I use ICEWM because it stays out of the way, and lets me run apps.
I don't go for this garbage about...
* it's relational
* it's 4th generational
* it's got abject ornamentation
* yes folks, thanks to multiple inheritance, it's both a toothpaste and a floor wax
When a desktop environment requires MySQL as a dependancy, you know they've gone off into la-la-land.
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I just want to get my TV dongle to work, share with the Windoze box on my home network, and try to find where my system settings went when I upgraded to Unity. I got over Wobbly Windows pretty quick.
Re:Interesting times (Score:5, Informative)
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Wow, you mean they're going to replace Unix pipes with some new system based on javascript? Good riddance to old rubbish! What have Unix pipes ever done for anyone?
They? Currently it's a hobby project by a single guy and so far no backing from any big vendor. I don't know if it's good but that's why I'm hoping that TermKit will be discussed.
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a few days ago fabrice from qemu announced linux running inside a browser.
By progressively replacing linux components with JS, emulation becomes lighter?
Re:Interesting times (Score:4, Insightful)
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That's just what I was thinking. Wayland could be really excellent for those times when you're not using network transparency and just want stuff to be fast. I was really disappointed not to see it in natty but I'd like to see it work before it's included anyway.
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I think I must be a desktop Luddite, because none of the new developments you mention appeal to me at all, with the possible exception of Wayland.
No one is going to force you to not use old technology. It's all FOSS.
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No one is going to force me to use it, but if the things that I like that are fundamental to the desktop stop being supported, eventually something else I use is going to force me to choose between using their software or my preferred desktop environment. The longer I can keep the things I like supported, either by encouragement, donations, or doing it myself, then the longer I don't have to make that choice.
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Considering that the latest OpenBSD release still ships KDE 3.5 etc., I think you can be sure that old technologies you like are supported for quite some time into the future.
And in good ol' capitalist tradition you can also pay someone to support that stuff for you.
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I take it you don't run Ubuntu...
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I take it you don't run Ubuntu...
No, I don't. So? Is there anybody forcing everyone to use the latest Ubuntu version with locked settings? No.
You can still use an older release, install outdated software from a PPA, or switch distros completely.
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Wooosh.
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"I'm hoping the newly announced TermKit http://acko.net/blog/on-termkit [acko.net] [acko.net] will be discussed during the open days. TermKit is new concept to replace the decades old Unix pipes with a modern implementation based on JSON."
that's like saying "we're going to replace the millenia-old medium of air as a means of communicating voice with a modern communications system based on the written word".
unix pipes are just an inter-process communications system that has nothing to do with the data that is transferr
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so i have to ask: what the bloody hell drugs are you on??
Why do you insult me just because I am hoping to see some discussions about it happen at DS? Talking about it is not going to hurt anyone.
Calm down... (Score:1)
...(s)he's not insulting you, but rather your drugs ;-D
On a more serious note "replacing the decades old Unix pipes with a modern implementation based on JSON" (I quote you) does indeed sound like some bad-ass marketing talk, sorry to say that.
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...(s)he's not insulting you, but rather your drugs ;-D
I should calm down? I wasn't insulting anyone. I just commented on the story.
He makes it sound as if I am responsible for TermKit. I've just read a news item about it yesterday and I find that it's a candidate for discussion. That's all.
On a more serious note "replacing the decades old Unix pipes with a modern implementation based on JSON" (I quote you) does indeed sound like some bad-ass marketing talk, sorry to say that.
WTF? Are you serious? If I was to market TermKit I'd placed more prominently in my post, not just two short sentenced somewhere in between. If anybody is hyping it, it's you and lkcl for concentrating only on two sentences from my entire posting.
I don't want to discuss it he
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TermKit looks incredibly stupid, it's the same koolaid as "powershell" where the main program needed is "serialize" so that you can convert your "objects" into text and actually get some work done.
JSON fortunatly *is* text so at least they won't do that (though there is going to have to be some way to strip the "JSON-ness" from it so that the piped program treats it as text). But since it is text the existing pipes can send it! Just choose the right program.
The developer of TermKit seems infatuated by the i
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It's actually beyond trivial to do in Windows and I believe it's just as easy on Linux. On Windows, however, it is linked to extension. On Linux it's done by magic (literally) and handled with binfmts.
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You are correct that all systems now offer a command to do the double-click.
OS/X is probably the best, they have a command called "open".
Windows officially has "dllopen /a /b/gobblygook /x=..." (I don't know what it is, actually, but it is a command to locate a function in a dll and run it). I thought they also had a command called "open" but I have been informed that this is more like a built-in alias in cmd.exe. Because this is actually in the shell, it is perhaps getting the closest to my request.
Linux f
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NONE of them are doing what I want, where you type the name of a file and it selects what to run.
Sigh, no, you really don't know what you're talking about. example for windows [php.net] - Linux stuff on Wiikipedia [wikipedia.org]
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1 person talking about Emlightenment and it isn't a KDE and GNOME summit? LOL.
Desktop Summit started out as a collaboration between GNOME and KDE and it still mainly is, though it's not their fault representatives from most other unrelated projects are not interested in participating.
This time only one Enlightenment guy and one WINE guy.
It is only the second Desktop Summit in history, so give it some time to attract more people from other projects. There mere fact that both Enlightenment and WINE are represented shows that the initiators are interested in broadening the scope from th
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I guess JSON is a response to Powershell's .COM piping. It does add more power, but also more complexity. The terminal is already pretty scary to people. I hope it isn't too difficult to use.