Why Debian Matters More Than Ever 345
Julie188 writes "If you look at the feature list for Debian 6, released on February 6, it's easy to be underwhelmed. This is especially true when measuring Debian against its offspring, like Ubuntu. Debian doesn't get much credit, and its become trendy for industry pundits to claim it's become irrelevant. But it's more relevant than ever. If you're using Ubuntu (or Linux Mint, or Mepis...), you're really using Debian with some enhancements. According to a presentation given recently by Debian Project Leader (DPL) Stefano Zacchiroli, only 7% of Ubuntu is directly derived from upstream projects, Canonical's projects, or other non-Debian sources. Of the rest, 74% of Ubuntu is rebuilt Debian packages, and 18% are patched and rebuilt Debian packages."
Since when? (Score:5, Interesting)
Debian doesn't get much credit, and its become trendy for industry pundits to claim it's become irrelevant.
News to me. Who's calling it irrelevant?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Since when? (Score:5, Interesting)
agreed. debian is probably the most successful linux distribution ever, and i'd probably turn to freebsd before another linux distro.
sadly, one often hears a sense on the debian mailing lists, etc, that users (and even debian developers) would like to make debian slicker and more appealing to desktop users (more like ubuntu, or mint, for example). i consider this (especially the infighting) to be a huge mistake. ubuntu is just "the externalization of all the tweaks suitable for desktop users", and I consider this to be "The Right (tm)" solution to the "how best to please everyone all the time" problem (aka the "world domination syndrom") that most distros suffer from.
i really appreciate debian as a solid foundation. fwiw, i usually install a base system and then add on from there.
debian, and all the derivative distros should work together while supporting these types of forks... ubuntu should just be a repository of exactly/only the packages that are tweaked or added above and beyond the debian packages. it should be reasonable to just add an ubuntu repo to my sources file and do an upgrade to get to a typical ubuntu.
Re:Since when? (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh absolutely. I recently came to realise just how much I took Debian for granted when I had to set up a Django site with Post-GIS on a CentOS (5.5) box.
Out of the box Centos only supported Python 2.4(!) and if you update it, you break everything. So trying to install a parallell version, I tried to use the EPEL repository to install Python 2.6. All good and fine until I realised I had to recompile my own pysocopg2 driver.
Then I realised Postgres and PostGIS where way too old for django. Could I update? Nope! the 8.4 version in epel didnt have any obvious version of PostGIS.
Giving up at wasting 2 days of my clients time recompiling things, trying to patch broken scripts, fighting busted versions of upgraded non supported software and pulling hair out, I badgered the host to install Debian squeeze for me (thanks Rackforce!) and they did.
Heres how I then did all this without pain on Squeeze:
root@debian:~# apt-get install postgresql-8.4-postgis
root@debian:~# apt-get install libapache2-mod-passenger
root@debian:~# apt-get install python-django python-django-south
And thats that. Server set up in 4 easy commands. No compiling, no complicated patch files, everything automatically and intelligently downloaded, installed, and checked for conflicts by the OS.
You'll note it looks like I have missed some things. Not true, apt-get knows installing an apache mod without apache is silly and did it for me, likewise installing postgis without the server itself is also silly. Everything done, checked for sanity, and so on.
Now of course I know YUM can do all that too, but thats no good to me, when the repository is that old its got 7 year old language distros as its cutting edge.
Its amazing to think that once upon a time Debian was considered behind the times.
See why I love this operating system?
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You might want to have a look at pip [openplans.org] and virtualenv [python.org].
In many cases, it lets you largely ignore what python-stuff is installed on the server, that you don't have root access, what package manager it use, and how outdated everything is.
It's still a bit of compiling going on, so you would need source packages for python and posgres (for pysocopg2) - but overall it's considerably easier (also, perfect for testing new versions of packages)
Example, to replicate a set of packages:
pip freeze > reqs.txt #dumps i
Re:Since when? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Since when? (Score:5, Insightful)
If anything it makes me question 'industry pundits' who fail to recognize the layered way that open source projects are able to build on each other.
Like saying a plant is irrelevant to the flowers that grow on it
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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You know, that guy who always fails to get his wireless working in Debian, then downloads Ubuntu and goes on a rant about how everything should Just Work like Ubuntu did for him that one time on that one machine...
Re:Since when? (Score:5, Funny)
many of the ones using a broadcom chip can't get online to talk about their experiences
Re:Since when? (Score:5, Informative)
Steven Vaughan-Nichols is calling it "no longer as important as it once was". See http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/the-new-debian-linux-irrelevant/8218 [zdnet.com]
Re:Since when? (Score:5, Insightful)
Say who? If you're going to call others irrelevant, shouldn't you first have some modicum of relevancy yourself?
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Yeah, but he also says stuff like "pain-in-the-rump." Who cares what he thinks?
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Who?
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Steven Vaughan-Nichols is calling it "no longer as important as it once was".
Perhaps he doesn't know that Ubuntu depends on it, so do most live CD distros.
Re:Since when? (Score:5, Insightful)
Steven Vaughan-Nichols is calling it "no longer as important as it once was"
He should know. He's on ZDnet.
I should know, I'm commenting on Slashdot.
As Ozzie would say (Score:2)
Who the Fuck is Steven Vaughan-Nichols?
I have run Debian based systems for a very long time. Mepis, Mint, Kubuntu, and on and on. On my server, it's just pure straight stable Debian. I did, at one point have to compromise slightly on that for PHP5, IIRC. It can be frustrating running pure stable Debian. Unstable Debian can be just as frustrating. Hence the need for third party Debian based distros. If it wasn't for Debian's crazy release schedule and placement of code in unstable or testing when it really n
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Who the Fuck is Steven Vaughan-Nichols?
I have run Debian based systems for a very long time. Mepis, Mint, Kubuntu, and on and on. On my server, it's just pure straight stable Debian.
And just who are you? Why should we care what you run? Or about the fascinating history of your personal odyssey through Linux distributions?
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People who are concerned with more current software, easy installers, and flashing GUIs out of the box.
For those of us that want a very stable and reliable server and don't want to have to deal with a bunch of garbage, Debian is the way to go. However, I say this as I just finally finished up hunting down all the script issues which arose for me (for the first time) following my upgrade to Squeeze.
It's been a fun week to say the least and yet, for whatever reason, I still cannot upload one of my many CSVs t
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I'd even recommend Debian for people who want the latest software updates. That's what testing and unstable are for. Using package pinning, you can run a stable base, with selected testing and unstable packages. Mix and match what you want. Debian will cope fine with it. That's the beauty of the system.
Of course, you have to be a little more careful, but it's easy enough to revert to a previously installed package if you have issues. I've been running a mixed testing and unstable install on my laptop,
Re:Since when? (Score:4, Insightful)
Somebody named Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols [zdnet.com] the third. Should be working at the DMV
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Its called a straw man.
Set up false claims then demolish them in a fit of peek.
If anything people have voiced concern for Debian since so many distros depend heavily on it
and its purity.
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Its called a straw man.
Set up false claims then demolish them in a fit of peek.
It's easy to POKE holes in your argument...
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DOH!
I save my best spelling for those who pay me.
I thought it looked wrong when I typed it, but couldn't remember the right spelling. Thanks for the reminder.
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Why can't it just be like flammable and inflammable - oh wait ... that's even worse.
Village Spared From Deadly Storm (Score:2)
News to me. Who's calling it irrelevant?
Didn't you get the memo from the department of small minds? Importance is now measured with a blood pressure cuff.
When a brick decides to be a simple brick "Imminent Storm Threatens Village".
In Zittrain's world (The Future of the Internet and How to Mess it Up Real Bad) what matters most of all in technology is generativity: the usefulness of a brick to support other bricks. Possibly I mean Lego bricks, but more likely I mean Mechano, since generativity gloms in all directions.
I've also read that C and/or
debian is still my choice. (Score:3, Interesting)
I've sampled the others, and it just keeps working for me.
When other distros let me down -- even the debian based ones (like Ubuntu failing miserably over and over on my wife's netbook) -- debian, with the desktop set of packages installed, works beautifully.
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Personally I don't like Debian (gentoo user) .. but I do admit it drives a lot of open source.
And it does strike me odd that ubuntu is pulling off the Debian repos, but seems to take all the credit (best Debian ever gets is "it's based off Debian"). This is probably not intentional, and it makes sense (re-inventing the wheel should be avoided if reasonable) .. it just kind of "looks bad".
Gentoo? (Score:2)
People still use Gentoo? Wow! That was always my fav distro. How well is Gentoo being maintained nowadays?
I was actually thinking of trying Debian 'cause I figured Gentoo would have rotted over the last few years.
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Gentoo is in very fine shape these days, I'm compiling it daily!
FTFY
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I use Gentoo on my desktop. It works great, but it's kind of a pain in the ass if you don't upgrade packages regularly. I just moved, and I was only using my laptop for about 6 weeks. When I tried to upgrade, I got all kinds of dependency hell. It wasn't too hard to get everything resolved, but it seemed unnecessary.
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Gentoo is easily the most clever distro name.
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In the early days, Ubuntu was basically framed as "Debian on a disk." Anyone in the know, knows that Ubuntu (like MEPIS and a lot out there) is based upon Debian. Debian is just stable, solid, and unencumbered enough to form the basis of a lot of good stuff.
And these days, who still uses Fedora? openSUSE? Mandriva? Ubuntu pretty much won the Linux desktop wars by finally providing something better than Windows (a no-install install). And on servers, you options are basically the stability obsessed gnom
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I love Debian too, and run it on anything important. But Arch is more fun.
You can't just count packages and draw conclusions (Score:5, Insightful)
You can't just count packages and draw conclusions from counts. Some of the packages haven't been updated in years. Some are only used by like five users on the planet. Some are so buggy they won't even run.
Weigh them by how many people install and use them, and you've got something to talk about, though.
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debian has a package called popularity-contest, which it asks to install when you do a new debian install. from the package description:
Description: Vote for your favourite packages automatically
.
The popularity-contest package sets up a cron job that will
periodically anonymously submit to the Debian developers
statistics about the most used Debian packages on this system.
This information helps Debian making decisions such as which packages
should go on the firs
Re:You can't just count packages and draw conclusi (Score:4, Funny)
Popularity contest statistics for popularity-contest [debian.org] says that 99.76% of the almost hundred-thousand Debian users sending statistics back to the "popularity contest" have installed the application which gathers such statistics.
Re:You can't just count packages and draw conclusi (Score:4, Interesting)
How the hell do the other 0.24% report them?
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How the hell do the other 0.24% report them?
Probably privacy purists who don't want software sending things automatically over the internet, and send their results off manually.
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Yeah, but they'd still need popcon to generate the list, which has a specific format.
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I suspect that the most likely explanation is that those machines have suffered from dpkg database corruption.
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You can't just count packages and draw conclusions from counts. Some of the packages haven't been updated in years. Some are only used by like five users on the planet. Some are so buggy they won't even run.
Maybe, but if a Debian package out of date, uncommon, or unusably buggy, then I expect that Ubuntu would not import it or pull from the upstream project. You know, the packages the summary is talking about.
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You can't just count packages and draw conclusions from counts. Some of the packages haven't been updated in years. Some are only used by like five users on the planet. Some are so buggy they won't even run.
Weigh them by how many people install and use them, and you've got something to talk about, though.
Nope, you sure can't draw conclusions off of package counts alone.
However, a person, such as myself, can use Debian since 2003 and come to the conclusion that the packages, and packaging, in Debian are of high quality. A typical Debian Gnome desktop install takes around 3-4 gigs of hard drive space. My desktop installations, after a year or two, normally take up 12 to 15 gigs due to the number of packages I install. My longest running install--apt-get dist-upgrades from Woody through Etch--had more than
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Hey! What do you mean 5? There are like 6 people that use JOE(Joe's Own Editor) and Nano is for L user's that don't know word star key binding's. /playgeekcard
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There's still some work to do on cultivating a bit of coordination between sets of packages. E.g. they managed to hose my BOINC cluster NFS shares by dropping aufs NFS export support before there was a viable replacement (unionfs seems to take an asymptotic path towards full completion). They decided as a matter of policy to not fix that, because aufs NFS isn't especially high quality code... gee thanks, all of us who were just using it to run junk clusters don't exactly need data center quality. But th
analogy (Score:3)
ubuntu is to debian as firefox is to gecko
Re:analogy (Score:5, Interesting)
That is how it should be, but that is not how it is. Debian is not some generic distribution-construction-kit, but instead Debian is a complete normal independent Linux distribution and that is exactly where I see the problems. Ubuntu, just as the other distributions based on Debian, isn't a real Debian with a few extra packages installed, but a completely different thing, having its own complete package dependency tree that is incompatible to that of Debian. You might have luck installing Ubuntu packages on Debian or visa versa, but you might as well have not. There is no Debian base system to which developers can develop their packages that will then automatically be compatible with all Debian based distribution, you still have to build every package for every distribution.And thats really the crux, instead of having a unified base with which you can reach a large part of Linux users, you have heavy fragmentation. See for example the whole Launchpad auto builder infrastructure, great for building stuff for Ubuntu, but wanna build something for another Debian based distro or even Debian itself? Tough luck, that stuff is Ubuntu only.
At this point I would really welcome it when Debian would work towards becoming a proper base system for other distributions to build on in a proper way, not the kind of hacky one that is practiced today.
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I think that'd be a terrible idea. The reason Debian works as a distribution base is because it's a complete, centralised, internally consistent and _working_ distribution guided by principles of end-user (admin) choice and unusually strict guidelines for package quality and interoperability, which make it fairly easy to drop new packages into the mix from random sources, mix-and-match packages already in the pool, and pre-decide things for your specific user base.
And you most certainly can build packages t
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Derivative distros should adapt themselves to Debian, not the other way around.
See for example the whole Launchpad auto builder infrastructure, great for building stuff for Ubuntu, but wanna build something for another Debian based distro or even Debian itself? Tough luck, that stuff is Ubuntu only.
Maintainers can upload their source packages to Debian Mentors [debian.net] and get them into Debian, which will then be pulled by the other distros.
If the maintainer chooses to go through Ubuntu's incompatible platform, what are the Debian developers supposed to do?
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I would welcome a cart able to push a horse, and Ambercrombie/GAP/DKNY should pay advertising fees to all those people wearing their clothes.
Re:analogy (Score:5, Funny)
Ubuntu is to Debian as Stalin is to Lenin?
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Ubuntu is to Debian as Flock is to Firefox.
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ubuntu is to debian as firefox is to gecko
not really.
debian can still do all the things ubuntu can.
ubuntu is debian packaged for (possibly non-tech-savvy) end-users and polished a bit.
Mint (Score:2)
"Ubuntu is debian packaged for (possibly non-tech-savvy) end-users and polished a bit."
Hmmmm. But then Mint would win out. Mint started out as Ubuntu packaged for (possibly non-tech-savvy) end-users and polished a bit. Then they skipped the intermediate step, Ubuntu, and went for the source itself - Debian.
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No, more like Ubuntu is to Debian what Donald is to Daffy.
I've never run "pure" Debian... (Score:3)
I have, however, read MANY comments on the evils of the very bits of default software that make me like Ubuntu.
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Keeping it free and open is evil? =P
That's not what I said. Nice try though. And you're kind of making my point.
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wow your anger can't be healthy...
re Debian Squeeze (Score:2)
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The new version seems current, but it probably won't in a year and a half, when it will likely still be the current version.
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And this bad? Why? The point of a stable release is to be stable, not to introduce bugs by introducing new software into the system, and possibly major system changes. That can break a lot of stuff, and if you're running a server that's the last thing you need.
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The new version has the latest bind, php 5.3, etc. Seems really current to me.
For servers, sure. The desktop? Some applications, like Firefox, may technically be on the most recent stable release, but it will be over a year out of date–and remember, new FF release cycle after 4 gets comes out–by the time Debian 7 rolls around. And last I checked they still haven't put a beta of 4.0 in sid yet.
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Why are you running 2.6.27 when Squeeze ships with 2.6.32 by default?
Debian still supports PowerPC (Score:5, Informative)
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Wait - and that makes it /more/ or /less/ relevant?
Ubuntu and Debian - they need each other (Score:3, Interesting)
A lot of people are upset that Ubuntu doesn't give back a lot to Debian in terms of packages/software/whatever, however what Ubuntu gives Debian (and indeed Linux) is a more approachable OS package as a whole, something more suitable to the non-geek, this is something that Linux/Debian have never really bothered with a lot while in the realm of genuine geeks but it's something that Ubuntu adds and which is greatly appreciated by people outside of the geek circle. So while you cannot measure Ubuntu's 'give back' in quantitative terms it is still giving a huge amount in other areas where advancements were sorely needed.
I don't see the problem with Ubuntu being a Debian based distro - isn't this what Debian or any other distro would want - a larger adoption rate? It's all GPL, it's not like licences are being broken.. or is the crying from a minority more to do with a bad case of sour-grapes?
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Ubuntu may not contribute that much back to Debian in terms of code, but at the very least, if they become profitable at some point, it would be great if they could use some of that cashflow to fund the Debian project (if they don't already). I think that's where they have a lot (if not the most) to offer.
Quiet! You Fools! (Score:4, Interesting)
Let Debian do it's collectivist work in the shadows, and Canonical can provide the capitalist facade that keeps Them at bay. . . This arrangement might be its only hope for survival. Voluntary virtual-subjugation? Since data, unlike food, can be copied endlessly-- this might be a pretty good arrangement. Until it isn't, anyway.
well... (Score:2)
Debian: more relevant than Steven Vaughan-Nichols (Score:2)
I use Ubuntu because it is the 'Apple' of Linux distributions. ... it just works... I even violate my Linux roots sometimes and configure stuff through the GUI. I think it is Steven Vaughan-Nichols who is not relevant. And it it were not for Debian, there would be no Ubuntu.
Yes, yes, I know that Red Hat works too, but it just doesn't DO anything. RPMs that won't install. An ugly incoherent out of date GUI. configured for security ... meaning you should consider yourself privileged that it actually le
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debian is better for n00bs (Score:5, Insightful)
Debian 6? (Score:2)
This is how I see it. (Score:5, Insightful)
If Debian disappeared tomorrow would the Ubuntu team notice?
Now ask yourself. Who exactly isn't relevant?
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Original: "Who the bloody hell cares about Debian" (Score:2)
This summary is drawn from an opinion piece which was originally inspired by a presentation by Debian leader Stefano Zacchiroli in January called "Who the bloody hell cares about Debian".
Original presentation makes a solid case for why Debian is more important now than ever.
Stefano's blog post discussing the story behind the presentation is here [upsilon.cc]. There is a link to the slides there and apparently video will be available soon.
Ubuntu (Score:2)
What does this mean? As GNOME was Ubuntu's desktop, it means a mass of new users for GNOME. I think this has been one of the main influences of Ubuntu. Linux has been on the server a long time, and people have been mucking with Apache on Linux and the like for a long time. But Ubuntu brought a lot of new users to
My mum says... (Score:3, Informative)
"this is obvious."
Since I put debian 6 on her laptop - the frequency of ubuntu updates annoyed her, and she refused to install them (windows failed her long ago - even without viruses the spyware slowed it to a crawl) - she thinks it matters a lot. And who am I to argue...?
I am slightly amused by all the insistence on its geek credentials. For the above installation I put the installation CD in and essentially pressed return until a working desktop came up. I admit I had to type 2 user names and passwords, but I didn't find it too onerous. For my other machines I might do other things - but that is me complicating matters and nothing inherently to do with debian. It seems all my hardware is so old now, it just works out of the box.
{Kindly refrain from posting "j00r m0m" jokes... heard them all before... really. Not a challenge, either.}
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Common package maintainers (Score:2)
The Debian project lead, Stefano Zacchiroli, is being terribly misquoted.
The numbers in the article do not address the common case of having one package maintainer for both distros. That 74% actually means that 74% of packages are *in common* between the distros. It is conceivable that much of that 74% is because of maintainers who contribute to both distributions. It isn't fair to say that Debian does all the work and Ubuntu merely takes advantage of it.
Seeing that the same package exists in both Debian an
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Ubuntu on the other hand was first released 20 October 2004. Ubuntu is used by an estimated 12 million users and accounts for about 50% share of desktop Linux users.
I would take these numbers all a grain of salt as they are estimates from Canonical and others. Stats courtesy the Ubuntu Wikipedia article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(operating_system) [wikipedia.org]
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I would say those estimates are not unreasonable. You probably have to assume that Kubuntu and Xubuntu and Edubuntu contribute to those numbers too, as they all draw from the same repositories.
I've long used Opensuse, but for joe user, Ubuntu is probably one of the easiest to install and keep up to date, especially when you can start with an LTS version.
Re:Debia what? (Score:4, Informative)
Is this supposed to be sarcastic?
Debian is not Ubuntu's grandparent, that's a really bad analogy. If anything, Ubuntu's a leech (a very pretty leech, yes) to Debian. It's more of a symbiotic relationship than a true leech, but Ubuntu would have a very hard time to move forward without Debian's foundation and the work done by Debian developers. Chances are a LOT of Debian updates find their way into Ubuntu, so when the former updates, the latter benefits from it.
If Debian died today all the sudden, Ubuntu wouldn't grind to a halt, but it'd be struggling to keep its pace.
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SNS (Shiny New Shit syndrome) is a very serious condition that can negatively impact the reliability of your computer.
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In almost 8 years of Debian usage I've run into that one time, but it was in testing, not stable, and it required the upgrading of glic so it was dependent on a major system change.
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If you want bleeding edge, you run sid, not stable.
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Ummmm.... Goes to show you know very little about Debian. If you want up-to-date software run testing. It has fewer bugs than Ubuntu, and on average has newer software versions. Sure, Ubuntu may add some new packages before Debian does, but comparing package to package, Debian testing is more up-to-date....
I've been running testing or unstable on my workstation and laptop for years and I run into fewer problems in them than I do whenever I have tried Ubuntu. Ubuntu takes a snapshot of Debian unstable a
Re:I love Debian (Score:5, Interesting)
Debian cares, and it's their job to care. You should probably read the release notes before you upgrade between major versions.
I think the best way to draw attention to hardware that doesn't function without non-free drivers and firmware is to have a distribution that will take a principled stand against including such software. That way, you can try to install Debian on a computer and know exactly what is supported by free software.
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I think the best way to draw attention to hardware that doesn't function without non-free drivers and firmware is to have a distribution that will take a principled stand against including such software.
That distro is gNewSense [gnewsense.org].
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Yes, how dare they stick to their principles if it annoys me!
They even host (unofficial) CD images with the non-free firmware [debian.org], so I don't know what you're complaining about.
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nice sig...
"Get out of my CHAIR!"
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As noted in the article, Debian has never been a distribution that was built for the masses. Yes, some detailed knowledge of the hosting hardware is required. But this is nothing new. It's always been a distro for the more savvy user I.E. your down and dirty geeks and serious developers/administrators.
While some complain loudly about the release schedule (?) that Debian is famous for, it is this very attention to detail that makes each new release of Debian one the most stable in the Linux world.
While De
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Indeed. Ubuntu comes from an African word meaning "can't install Debian".
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I really don't know why this is set as flamebait, some ppl actually do have real issues with a debian install.. given all the confusing d/l options available, along with lax luster support for wifi drivers and such.
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Ummm... 2003 is calling and wants your FUD back.
Debian's installer is no more difficult than Ubuntu's. or Windows, although it does give you the option to go into more detail by using the "so-called" expert mode. Today's "expert" mode is pretty much dead simple unless you use something like linux RAID and then it requires you to know RAID. Other than that it doesn't require anywhere near the knowledge the Woody installer did.
It took me 3 tries to install Woody. If the Squeeze installer had been used for