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Graphics Windows Linux

DX11 Coming To Linux (But Not XP) 370

Posted by CmdrTaco
from the speaking-directly-to-you dept.
gr8_phk writes "As reported over at Phoronix, the Direct X 11 API now has an open source implementation on top of Gallium3d which should ease porting of games to Linux with or without Wine. While still in its infancy, you can see where this is heading. All this while Microsoft hasn't offered DX11 for their own aging WindowsXP. Could it be that Linux may soon support this Microsoft API better than Microsoft itself?"
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DX11 Coming To Linux (But Not XP)

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  • by TitusC3v5 (608284) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @12:48PM (#33652982) Homepage
    Microsoft has finally give us some cheese for our wine is not an emulator is not an emulator is not an emulator is not ...
  • by Tetsujin (103070) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @12:49PM (#33652992) Homepage Journal

    "Could it be that Linux may soon support this Microsoft API better than Microsoft itself?"

    Yes. It seems very likely to me that an open-source implementation of a Microsoft API, and implementation "in its infancy", will soon surpass Microsoft's own offering.

    I mean, if you're comparing DX11 support on Linux to DX11 support on XP - well, some support is better than none, right? So, OK, sure.

    • by ifiwereasculptor (1870574) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @12:57PM (#33653146)
      "Could it be that Linux may soon support this Microsoft API better than Microsoft itself?" Actually Linux could soon support Microsoft's latest API better than XP. That's possible. But not better than Microsoft. That's like saying Linux has always supported DX9 better than Microsoft itself because it wasn't present in Windows 3.1 (and neither in 3.11).
    • by Fulg (138866) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @01:04PM (#33653232) Homepage

      Yes. It seems very likely to me that an open-source implementation of a Microsoft API, and implementation "in its infancy", will soon surpass Microsoft's own offering.

      I was about to post the same thing. The summary is amazingly hasty in its conclusion... I mean, WINE has been at it for what, 10 years? They still don't have it working as well as the original. Not dissing WINE, but I mean, implementing the entry points of a published API is easy. Making it do the correct things under the hood is the hard part...

      That being said, I can certainly applaud the effort, but this should be news once it's working otherwise it's meaningless.

    • by Gadget_Guy (627405) * on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @01:21PM (#33653474)

      I had a quick look at the system requirements for this project, and it said: "The following are required for DRI-based hardware acceleration with Mesa...Linux 2.6.28." This version was released nearly two years after Vista. I don't think that it can be said to support DirectX better than Microsoft when it can't run on a version that dates back to XP days.

      Now I think that it is great that they are doing this project, but saying it supports the API better than Microsoft only distracts from the developer's achievements.

      • by JesseMcDonald (536341) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @02:09PM (#33654094) Homepage

        I don't think that it can be said to support DirectX better than Microsoft when it can't run on a version that dates back to XP days.

        Irrelevant. The latest Linux kernel is available for free, and can be upgraded without any compatibility issues or changes to the UI. Why would this project waste time redoing all the work which has already gone into kernel development? The odds that anyone would be interested in DX11 on Linux and simultaneously have a good reason not to upgrade their kernel are rather slim.

        Not to mention that the whole kernel is open-source, so if you really wanted to make it work you could probably backport the necessary DRI changes to an older kernel.

        There are good reasons for retaining XP on existing systems, not least of which are the facts that upgrading would cost several hundred dollars and force a major change in the user interface. You can't upgrade an XP system to a Vista or Windows 7 kernel with DX11 support while leaving the rest of the system intact. The situations are not comparable.

    • by rgviza (1303161) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @02:29PM (#33654358)

      Not really. MS won't support it on XP because they are trying to get gamers to buy Windows 7ista. I'm sure the Windows 7 support for DX11 will be on par with the linux support.

      *note I'm not a windows fanboi, I just happen to have a firm grasp of reality. I do game on windows, but my development work is entirely FOSS based on linux systems.

    • by oh_my_080980980 (773867) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @02:50PM (#33654682)
      Oh dear god you trolls. The point about the comment is that DX11 is not supported on Windows XP. Microsoft has no intention of supporting DX11 on XP and they want to kill XP. Thing is a lot of users still use XP.
  • by mark-t (151149) <markt@lynx. b c .ca> on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @12:51PM (#33653016) Journal

    Because I can't help but think that this may be some sort of scheme to put OpenGL out of the picture....

    I'm generally not one to presume conspiracy right off the bat, but there's something about this that just doesn't quite seem on the up-and-up, IMO.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @12:51PM (#33653028)

    You mean like CIFS as supported by SAMBA...

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @12:52PM (#33653040)

    Graphics are an issue but Sound is the item holding back games for Linux.

    If this can include a universal sound API then Microsoft will be in trouble.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @12:53PM (#33653046)

    D3D 10/11 are pure shaders, the API does little more than compile, upload, and bind data to those shaders.

    So the only 'trick' is to automatically convert HLSL to GLSL, which again, is pretty straightforward, since concepts and structures should pretty much map up 1:1.

    Oh, BTW.. It's not DX11 it's D3D11, DirectX is no longer versioned or packaged as one big 'thing', each component carries it's own version number and release schedule.

  • by DrunkenPenguin (553473) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @12:54PM (#33653074) Homepage
    This is a day I thought I'd never see. Wow! I started with Suse 5.2 back in 1998 and all those wasted years we dreamt of something like this and it's finally going to happen. World will never be the way it was if this will really happen. Too bad I'm too old now to actually enjoy this, but I will rejoice anyway just to support this. Now I'm a middle aged man, almost 40 years old, not interested to play Max Payne on my Slackware linux-box any more. All those wasted years.
  • by Kjella (173770) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @12:54PM (#33653078) Homepage

    So on a scale of 90-100, how many percent of this article is bullshit?

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @12:54PM (#33653086)

    Hello sir, I have been told that you enjoy compatibility. I took the liberty of installing a Direct X compatibility layer on top of your WINE compatibility layer. Now you can have a compatible user experience while having a compatible graphical experience.

    Wait, did I do that right?

  • Interesting. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Beelzebud (1361137) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @12:55PM (#33653090)
    I'd love this, if it's true, and it performs on par with windows. However, I've learned to take Phoronix hype with a grain of salt. They're gaining reputation for making bold claims based on no facts.
  • great idea (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ILuvRamen (1026668) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @12:57PM (#33653148)
    If they seriously release some really nice games for Linux that use it, people will be all over this at least as a dual boot system. Gamers love it when they do something that takes their current hardware and makes it way faster without spending any money. Judging by how fast Ubuntu ran on a Pentium 3 I had, I'd say Linux frees up a little ram for gaming. I always thought they'd take off as a gaming platform if they really pushed it because it's free and fast which is always a plus for gaming.
  • by RenHoek (101570) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @01:01PM (#33653192) Homepage

    Doesn't WINE already have a reasonable Direct X implementation? And with that I mean it's still quite iffy for a lot of games, so it looks like it's pretty hard to get a good implementation done..

    • by msclrhd (1211086) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @02:01PM (#33654008)

      Yes, but only upto DirectX 9. Direct X 10 (and possibly bits of 11 too) are in the works, but it is slow going.

      Just having the shader part of DX10/11 is not enough. It interacts with other Windows APIs like HWND (to create windows and process messages), HDC (to do some 2D drawing), Direct2D (for accelerated 2D rendering), DirectWrite (for accelerated text rendering), GDI+ (the XP-era acceleration APIs) and other APIs. Therefore, you need to pull in a lot of Windows APIs and behaviour to get games working properly.

  • no (Score:2, Troll)

    by RWarrior(fobw) (448405) * on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @01:03PM (#33653214)

    not better than microsoft. microsoft has merely made a well-announced, long-planned strategic decision to stop supporting XP on new products. this isn't a surprise, and anyone who complains about it needs to stop living in 2001.

  • by Citizen of Earth (569446) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @01:07PM (#33653284)
    In ten years, Linux will be a better Windows than Windows.
  • An insider view (Score:5, Informative)

    by DMiax (915735) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @01:08PM (#33653292)
    Disregarding for a moment the fact that this was announced a few months ago, here is an explanation [blogspot.com] of what this actually means for developers from a developer of Gallium3D. It explains why there will be no flood of games ported from Windows, and why we should still support a truly open API like OpenGL.
  • "not XP" (Score:3, Insightful)

    by airfoobar (1853132) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @01:08PM (#33653294)
    I thought Gallium was mostly cross-platform, so it may be possible to port DX10/11 to XP.
  • by russlar (1122455) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @01:10PM (#33653336)
    is phoronix slashdotted, or did MS take them down?
  • by electron sponge (1758814) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @01:13PM (#33653384)
    nt
  • by Picass0 (147474) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @01:16PM (#33653408) Homepage Journal

    ... taking an established technology - embracing, extending, and finally engulfing, and uh... wait a sec. Wha?

  • Apples to Oranges (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Wrath0fb0b (302444) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @01:16PM (#33653412)

    Could it be that Linux may soon support this Microsoft API better than Microsoft itself?"

    Not until they backport this project to work with kernel 2.2.19, which was current when XP was released 9 years ago. Failing that, they should at least be honest and compare support among current implementations.

    It's one thing for people to chose XP for their recent builds -- more power to them for choosing whatever they like best. But when you deliberately chose a 9 year old OS, you lose the right to complain that you cannot run the latest DirectX in the same fashion that people still on kernel 2.2 (I'm sure there are in-use servers still running that) can complain they cannot run the CFS [slashdot.org].

  • by joelholdsworth (1095165) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @01:19PM (#33653456)
    ...this probably won't help Wine much. As this post explains http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2010-September/086885.html [winehq.org] : "IIRC, it's been discussed before, and it simply wouldn't work. D3D has too many ties to the Windows API that a non-Windows based implementation wouldn't be appropriate for Wine (try getting an HDC from a D3D resource, or passing an HWND to D3D). Gallium would have to substitute these for X11 resources, or custom resources that tie into X, so wouldn't reflect the Wine's internal state. Additionally, not all drivers will support Gallium (eg. nVidia binaries), so a D3D10->GL path will still be needed."
  • by kazade84 (1078337) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @01:21PM (#33653472)

    This isn't really that exciting. Firstly it doesn't benefit Wine at all. Wine supports other platforms than Linux and other drivers than Gallium3D and Mesa and so this is useless to them, if that isn't enough the Wine source structure isn't built for this kind of swap out, specifically because Wine limits X interaction to a single DLL, winex11, and the WineD3D stuff doesn't have direct access to X. The Wine D3D developers have long said that a D3D state tracker won't help them.

    Secondly, it's not gonna help porting games to Linux either. D3D is only one part of the DX API and a game does a lot more than just draw stuff. Arguably swapping out D3D for OGL is relatively straightforward in comparison to swapping out sound API, file IO API, network IO API, message handling, etc. etc. that's why some games allow you to switch between the graphics API.

  • by bluefoxlucid (723572) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @01:27PM (#33653542) Journal
    I'd love this, if it's true, and it performs on par with windows. However, I've learned to take Phoronix hype with a grain of salt. They're gaining reputation for making bold claims based on no facts.
  • With Gallium 3D? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Beelzebud (1361137) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @01:31PM (#33653576)
    How could Gallium 3D run Direct X 11 in any way that could be comparable to the native Windows client, when it doesn't even do basic 3d acceleration as good as the proprietary blobs?
  • by JohnnyBGod (1088549) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @01:53PM (#33653902)

    Could it be that Linux may soon support this Microsoft API better than Microsoft itself?

    On a marginally related note, I've actually had something like this happen to me. I couldn't get Railroad Tycoon 3 running in Vista, and it worked just fine under Wine.

    Back on topic: the submitter misspelled "eventually".

  • by Junta (36770) on Tuesday September 21, 2010 @01:55PM (#33653922)

    To say Linux 'may support D3D better than MS' while referencing lack of D3D 10+ on WinXP is a tad disingenuous.

    Unless you are saying that the community is going to meaningfully backport full D3D 10/11 to RedHat 7.2 that is (WinXP and RedHat 7.2 came out roughly at the same time). I doubt you'll see this work seriously put to use in anything even as old as Vista with respect to the linux world

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