Roadblocks to Linux in Education 463
An anonymous reader writes "The Open Source Industry Australia (OSIA) has lashed out at government schools and education departments for snubbing FOSS. In this column, OSIA says it has been trying for over two years to make headway with these government agencies but 'they tell me that they are scared of doing anything which will upset Microsoft.'" From the article: "If these departments suddenly stopped paying for proprietary software and switched to FOSS, the schools know they won't reap any of the purported savings. So, why would schools bother with trialling FOSS? Where's the incentive?"
what are those idiots in the schools smoking? (Score:5, Insightful)
Afraid to upset MS? What have they got against saving money? Sounds like some people in education need to get their asses fired.
It's the apps, stupid! (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Maybe school don't like... (Score:3, Insightful)
Crystal maze (Score:5, Insightful)
If it's reached the point where you are scared of upsetting your sole source for software you depend upon, that's a clear sign you need to GET OUT NOW!
Bureaucratic Budget Law (Score:5, Insightful)
- Always spend at least 5% more than your budget (so you'll get more next budget cycle).
- Never underspend your budget (or they'll trim your budget in the next budget cycle!)
- The department director with the biggest budget wins.
Nuff said.Re:Maybe school don't like... (Score:2, Insightful)
Sadly... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:what are those idiots in the schools smoking? (Score:3, Insightful)
We are a country of mummies boys looking to others to tell us what to do. We won't do anything original until someone else does it first. If one of us has a fantastic idea, or invention it is almost always completely ignored here until the inventer is forced to sell it to an overseas company.
It's really quite sad. We may be the "Clever Country", but we don't utilise all our potential.
sounds familiar (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Bureaucratic Budget Law (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Suggestion? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Sadly... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's pretty much a myth since most schools don't teach kids how to use these apps except in the most rudimentary way. Granted, if you had no exposure to a word processor or a spreadsheet, that might keep you from being hired, but most kids coming out of school don't know anything but the minimal basics of those products. Otherwise, why would businesses spend so much money on training courses for employees?
Kids don't need skills in Windows or Microsoft products. They need skills in using word processors to put their ideas together in a coherent and esthetical fashion. They need to know how to use a spreadsheet to solve a problem, but first they need to know how to solve the problem, conceptually.
None of those things require a single Microsoft product. If it were the case that those skills don't transfer from one vendor's product to another, then we'd all still be using Wordstar and Visicalc.
Re:Try now, save later (Score:3, Insightful)
The reality is that if a school switches to FOSS and saves $100,000 a year, that much money will just be cut from their budget. It's not like they'll get to keep the money and use it for something else. Why bother.
The flaw in the logic is that the government doesn't see money as a limited resource. They can just raise taxes and fees. (Yes, economically this doesn't make sense - but government's not about making sense). Raise taxes today and we'll have plenty more money. Of course, they don't connect the dots when people move away and the economies suffer and fail.
Re:Sadly... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Microsoft is still the norm in industry (Score:5, Insightful)
Teach them how to send an e-mail. There's a to field, subject, and body. Again, the same in any e-mail client. Teach them how to intelligently use a search engine to find information. I'm sure you can see the pattern here. If not, maybe Clippie can help you out.
The point is to teach them the concepts so that they are confident enough later in life to adapt to new things.
Children are not completely fragile objects, contrary to the popular belief by some. Too often today people are treating them like single-celled organisms with no brains. Teach them the concepts and they will be able to thrive on their own in any environment.
Re:Microsoft is still the norm in industry (Score:3, Insightful)
Right.
It'll lock kids out of the business world because kids who can point and click around an Open Office GUI won't have a clue when they're faced with a Microsoft Office GUI.
It'll lock kids who want go into CS out of these programs, because there aren't any colleges where CS classes are taught around Linux.
It'll lock kids out of IT in the business and enterprise world because the use of Windows servers is universal.
And any kids who find themselves going from a Linux environment to an all-OSX (as in Unix) shop will sit with blank, traumatized looks with tears rolling down their faces because they won't have a clue as to what to do with a Mac GUI.
I don't blame you for not signing your post, I wouldn't want to have my own name attached to anything that stupid, either.
Save the children (Score:2, Insightful)
When it comes to schools, two things matter, saving the children, and the teacher's lobby. The debate needs to be framed in the way that the opposition has been framing it since they first entered the sector. You need to put FOSS savings in terms that teachers understand, and in terms that parents and others with vested interests in schools understand. Therefore, the next fiscal crises (there is one everytime new taxes are considered, the beginning of every school year, sweeps weeks at the news networks, everytime school employee contracts come up for renewal, etc) put FOSS in terms that the target audience understands. When teachers' jobs are threatened as justification for a tax increase, translate the fiscal savings from FOSS into the number of teaching positions saved. Translate FOSS into an alternative to a proposed unpopular tax or tax increase to save teaching positions. Translate FOSS savings into lower class sizes when the inevitable scandal breaks out on increasing class sizes. Translate FOSS into saving the children.
When the teachers' lobbies are faced with firm resistance on tax increases to subsidize their jobs, and are presented with an alternative method to save millions of dollars which can then be used to save the jobs, and that is the only alternative they can grasp at to save those jobs, watch how fast they'll change their tune.
Forget a tour on trying to explain FOSS savings or savings from lock-in. Just be ready and take action when the threat of teaching positions being eliminated rears its head, and then go on a country wide tour with every television news station, every radio station, every network station on how FOSS savings can save those precious teaching jobs. And be prepared to back it up with simple, concrete examples of other nations that have taken the FOSS plunge and have actual savings to speak of. Brazil, Argentina, Extremadura Spain, other countries that speak your country's native language, etc.
When the teachers' job saving opportunity arises, write letters to the editor asking why your local DOE head refuses to use FOSS software to save money that could be used to save those teaching positions. If relevant, ask why the higher ranked person in the central government, ask why their agency get to reap savings on using FOSS for their computers (ie: file servers, web servers), and yet they won't let the schools, the teachers, the children benefit from the same software. Write the letters to the editors of major news organizations in your country. Now with blogs and email there is more direct contact with reporters. Ask them the same questions. Maybe they'll ask your questions of the legislator during their next interview.
Re:Microsoft is still the norm in industry (Score:2, Insightful)
And specifically because there is a shortage of them. Supply and demand.
KFG
Re:what are those idiots in the schools smoking? (Score:3, Insightful)
The fact that it's your money, not theirs, and the fact that saving money makes it looks like they can stand to have their budget cut instead of increased.
KFG
I'll tell you why (Score:5, Insightful)
Although we still have pentium ones around and it would be nice to move from windows 95 to Linux. But even though teachers may teach, I found they hate to be taught.
Re:Microsoft is still the norm in industry (Score:1, Insightful)
Teachers (Score:2, Insightful)
And all those (generally) useless educational games are basically solely for Windows (or Mac).
Re:what are those idiots in the schools smoking? (Score:5, Insightful)
Afraid to upset MS? What have they got against saving money? Sounds like some people in education need to get their asses fired.
I can tell you have never worked in a K-12 environment. The objective of education is suppose to get people ready for life. Guess what, the vast majority of kids are going to work in an environment where Windows is used. Linux has it's place and it is not on the desktop, yet.
I am the computer tech. for a K-12 school district. I and I alone must support 14 different buildings with a total of over 5,000 computers. Desktop management is extremely important for me. I currently use Zenworks to manage the desktops. There is nothing in the Linux world that compares with the options available for Windows management. Believe me, I have tested SuSE with Zenworks and it is not as refined as the Windows implementation.
Management is important but application support is the most important factor in choosing a desktop OS. Our computer labs in every school run educational applications that are available FOR WINDOWS ONLY. One suite of programs for math is required by the state. Our administrators also must run programs available for Windows only. These include special ed IEP (Individual Education Program) programs, financial and asset tracking programs required by the state, and grade and attendance databases that only have Windows frontends. The database itself I have running on a Trustix Linux server, which brings me to my next point.
Our district is in the process of migrating from Netware 6 and 6.5 to SuSE Open Enteprise Server. From my personal experience of using Linux for eight years at home I can say it is not ready for desktop use in an educational environment. I wish the application support was available but it is not.
You mentioned that schools may be afraid to upset Microsoft. As a matter of fact we are. Our district along with countless others receive large grants, last year a total of $200,000, from Microsoft. This year they threatened to take away this years money since we are moving to Open Enteprise Server. I asked our sales rep. they made threats this year and not in the past. We have been using Netware since 3x. He said he wasn't sure. I bluffed and said we were also considering migrating our desktop systems to Linux. He replied back with an apology, $225,000, and two new computer labs.
I understand what Microsoft is doing. They are not making any money off of our district. What they are doing is molding future consumers. Am I ok with this? Yes I am. Any company in their position would do and has done the same thing. Apple became popular with schools because when you bought two computers you got a third free. We still have a few IIe's in service. Apple had a good thing going but they screwed up. Once the average user is comfortable with an interface, they do not want to change. Microsoft has change the interface to Windows very little in the past 10 years. They change it just enough for people to consider the upgrade but not enough to scare the same people off. I felt this way a few years ago when I upgraded my iMac from OS 9.1 to OSX 10.2. I use a variety of window managers in Linux so I am able to adapt and explore. I am glad Apple has not changed the OSX interface drastically. Perhaps they will be able to recapture a greater market share.
My father, who was a Macintosh zealot, was scared off by OSX. He is now a Windows XP user and continues to use his Performa with OS 8.1.
I think at this point I am writing for myself so I will finish up.
The IT education environment is like none other. Right now Windows has the upper hand due mainly in part to application support; not stability, security, or cost. I hope more vendors will release educational software for Linux. Until then, we are stuck with Windows unless Wine makes more progress.
I am done. If you have read to this point, thank you.
Re:Cost of Conversion (Score:3, Insightful)
This is exactly the case with City College of San Francisco, as I mentioned in another post elsewhere. They spent a million on SCT Banner to manage the school, another $150K/year on "support", then they spend another $195K/year to a consultantcy to get REAL support.
The fact of the matter is that the entire system could be re-engineered inhouse over a couple of years. Why not? The school isn't going anywhere, there's no time pressure to get it done by any specific time. Then turn it into an OSS project under the GPL, so that the rest of the industry can benefit. This is how OSS is DONE, folks!
There's no need to find a Linux equivalent for ANYTHING EXCEPT certain tools needed to BUILD an appropriate system (which is basically Java and the tons of OSS database, middleware and workflow products that exist for Java.)
This is where everybody who cites the costs of conversion goes wrong.
You DO NOT do conversion - you do RE-ENGINEERING on a carefully budgeted project over time.
The end result is you own and control the software running your operation, AND from then on, you save the license fees (and more importantly, you save the money wasted on doing things the vendor's way rather than YOUR way.)
Everybody in OSS needs to start IGNORING the so-called "conversion costs" and start emphasizing the inevitability of the need to either replace existing software with re-engineered in-house or OSS software - or spend pointless amounts of money for licensing and "support" forever. Start doing "present value" and "opportunities costs" calculations, I guess.
The crap software you're using now is costing you money and will continue to cost you money forever. Re-engineering WILL cost you less money in the long run.
It's that simple.
Re:Personal experience concurs (Score:2, Insightful)
No silly, you are not being creative enough. Firefox is a browser that doesn't automatically download malware just by looking at a jpeg.
I don't think Microsoft have an equivalent to that!
Re:what are those idiots in the schools smoking? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:what are those idiots in the schools smoking? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:what are those idiots in the schools smoking? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:what are those idiots in the schools smoking? (Score:3, Insightful)
It's simple. Educators don't expect or care if corporations adopt Linux so they have no reason to teach it.
Re:what are those idiots in the schools smoking? (Score:5, Insightful)
You state several times the lack of available software solutions for the linux platform forcing your school's decision to stick with Windows, and that is certainly an issue... And it will be for a LONG time if schools such as yours don't step up and find alternative solutions for these problems.
One suite of programs for math is required by the state.
Raise your voice. Make a complaint. What software suite is it, exactly? Make a large dent in the company's profits and they'll consider porting their software. Guaranteed.
That attitude makes me sick. Developers make software for the operating systems of the people who will buy it!
As far as desktop management goes... Although I'm not that familiar with zenworks, I do know that by simplifying your school's network you can do away with the need for many options that zenworks doesn't include in its linux product (if any).
Until then, we are stuck with Windows unless Wine makes more progress.
Give me a break. Reallocate funds saved on Windows licensing. Hire programmers to create solutions that are even better adapted than the ones you currently use.
I could be wrong about everything above, but I do know this: Change isn't always easy. But when this much money can be saved, it's worth it. Give those teachers a fat bonus, if anything :)
Re:What sort of crack are *you* smoking? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:what are those idiots in the schools smoking? (Score:3, Insightful)
Linux was sold on 5% of the desktops last year. This was a sharp increase from the year before. Unknown what this year will show.
Some corporations and/or governments are also switching to Linux desktops. This trend also seems to be increasing.
Now, if you are sixth grader (median grade, we assume in the K-12 program), this means that you will graduate HS in approx 6 years. There is no reason to think that Microsoft will be the only major player on the desktop by then. If we are trying to prepare people for the real world, then how is teaching them how to use this current version of Windows going to help them do that?
Instead, as you point out, they have no interest in learning this. So when forced to use something new, they will need a *lot* of encouragement, especially as they get older. It is better to have a diverse environment in the schools than expose people to a monoculture where we actively perpetuate this technophobia.
Yes, I think Windows has a place in the Schools, along side Linux, OS X, etc. And it is probably true that the main classroom computers will not be able to run Linux at the moment due to application availability issues. But that does not mean that we cannot run diverse computers elsewhere in the school and expose our students to it.
Guys from Mohawk because they've got all the money (Score:1, Insightful)
I think you missed one of the main points of the article, being IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER! [imdb.com] The people who have to implement and/or use the computers are not effected by price! They will be underpaid and over worked (more so during a proposed transition) no matter what.
If you had a divorce settlement in which every penny over $250 a week went to your ex, would you really choose a job simply on the basis of economics?
It seems to me that tax payers are the ones who'd have to push this through, as ultimately their the only ones who'd actually benefit from the savings.
So don't switch to F/OSS "suddenly" (Score:3, Insightful)
I think it might make more sense to phase in F/OSS, rather than making a sudden switch.
Start putting Linux in this lab, or that. Use it a leverage against msft. Start using non-msft apps as often as possible: openoffice, firefox, etc.
Re:Maybe school don't like... (Score:1, Insightful)
I work as a school district admin and im currently implementing linux and we have ran it for testing for 2 years on 30 boxes. I can firmly say that most teachers and school staff are useless on any OS, period.
They dont know half of what they must to teach anyone about computers. Its sad really when most teachers dont know the most basic concepts of email or word processing.
The problem lies in that the staff only know by icon placing how to do something. And this is what we teach our kids? Our kids will suck at computers.
Re:what are those idiots in the schools smoking? (Score:2, Insightful)
When I was a kid, our computer courses taught us how to use Teko Plus (though I personally preferred WordPerfect 5.1 that was also there), program in GW-BASIC, and do spreadsheet and database stuff in Microsoft Works 1.x. There was also some leet graphics stuff in PC-LOGO. And later courses even had some dBase III+ and Turbo Pascal.
As a result, I think I got a rather good idea on what the practical stuff and potential of word processing and spreadsheets and computerized databases was. I didn't learn much of the programming myself (being one that was grown on Commodore 64, and the only thing you could do on the damn thing was programming and games), but the point was, we were given these great toys with thich we could write stuff and such. We were shown some practical things one could do with the word processors. That was the great lesson.
Do you think I have great deal of use for Teko Plus skills right now? These days that thing is a glorious chapter in the Finnish computer history and nothing more - the product is long dead and gone. But did I get a good idea of "if you know how to use one of them, you know how to use them all"? Yeah!
The computer world changes all the time, and you have to be able to transfer your skills as the time comes. Not even Microsoft's own programs stay put!
Re:Maybe school don't like... (Score:3, Insightful)
Even in Microsoft's own studies, where they show MIcrosoft to be cheaper, it's only when you figure in the support costs (and they use highly inflated Linux ones, at that).
In a Linux/BSD solutions, the machines that were in the lab wouldn't have to go to secondary purposes, they could still be used.
The problem is that most educators don't know enough about computers to make intelligent decisions. So, they rely on school boards which have even less experience and recommend what the individuals use at work -- Windows. Or worse yet, they contract with a consultant to make the decisions and almost always end up with a company who is in the business of selling Microsoft products. It's kind of hard to give an un-biased recommendation when your livelyhood is dependent on Microsoft alone.
Re:what are those idiots in the schools smoking? (Score:3, Insightful)
Every school lab should contain a bunch of different systems. At the very least, some Macs as well as Windows boxes. If the staff are up to it, all the Windows boxen should dual boot into a recent Linux distro. This way, kids will learn more, and learn to be flexible.
You know, if you expose kids to two languages in the home when they're growing up, they'll be bilingual. Let them see a lab full of *nix, MacOSX, Windows, they'll very quickly work fluently with everything.
(My 5 year old daughter prefers Linux for Solitaire - it's much nicer than the Windows version she uses at school - but MacOSX is much better for talking to her grandparents, thanks to iChat.