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OSNews Rates Fedora Core 1 Mild Disappointment 510

Posted by simoniker
from the slightly-crumpled dept.
JigSaw writes "OSNews has reviewed the Fedora Core 1 Linux distro, but the author personally found lots of usability problems and bugs with the distro, making Fedora Core a trying experience. The writer puts the blame on poor QA of Fedora Core 1 done by its community, since Red Hat has shifted focus to Enterprise, with Fedora serving merely as a testbed for them."
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OSNews Rates Fedora Core 1 Mild Disappointment

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  • I have been with RedHat since 5.1, and so the question becomes: Debian or Suse?

    I need a very stable predictable platform, so maybe Debian, now it has a better intaller for a non-ubergeek like me, is the way to go.
    • Yup, trying to figure out same thing myself.

      I have ran debian in the past but have had problems with Java running w/out segfaults on it without manually updating some of the base libraries, etc. Maybe it's better now, but I might just jump ship from redhat to SuSE for all my needs.

      From what I have seen , SuSE doesn't lack anything redhat has, just free downloads. I guess it wouldn't hurt me to have to cough up money for a base release.

      mandrake just doesn't seem like a reasonable option to use for work/
    • I'm with ya... at least in the sense that I've been with RH since 5.2. I just let my "demo account" with RH lapse, being official as of today. Personally, while I can probably manage to hack, beat, and sweat my way through most any distro, I've got far more important things to do, and I've fallen in love with Mandrake. (yeah, 9.2 has more gotchas than people ever expected out of MDK, and I got bit by a few things during- and post-installation, but it is/was still *way* better than any experience I had with
    • After RedHat giving me the shaft, I've been trying out various distros (Slackware, Debian, Fedora, Mandrake) for the past month, and Mandrake seems very good - Debian kernel, libraries and ports too old, and SuSE doesn't have free ISO's to burn CD to try out (yes I have been buying RedHat since 5.x). Mandrake is the first distro to recognize everything in my system without manual configuration of mouse, xfree86, CD writer. only rough spot thus far is changing permissions on /proc/bus/ to world read-execu
    • For less expereienced users, I'd say go SuSE. Pay a few dollars and get a slick easy to use product.

      For folks with more compiles under their belt and who don't mind getting dirty hands, Debian is pretty sweet, and Gentoo is a very cool option as well.

    • RedHat dropping its distribution finally motivated me to try gentoo.
      I got it up and running on an old dual-proc scsi machine I keep around
      for experimenting. The amount of time spent compiling some of the bigger
      packages is insane, but since it's not my primary computer, I've been
      content to let it compile while I do my work. The results have been
      acceptable for the most part except that mozilla and MozillaFirebird
      won't run correctly. They both exit with return value 1 immediatly after
      they're started.

      So far my
  • by Space cowboy (13680) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:01PM (#7459288) Journal
    ... I mean how many distributions are perfect, the first time around. RHN is available up until April, which gives them a bit of time to sot things out, if they're expecting a big migration from RH to fedora...

    Simon.
    • by GlassHeart (579618) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:32PM (#7459625) Journal
      I mean how many distributions are perfect, the first time around.

      I thought one major advantage of free software was that we could afford to release only when ready, rather than when the marketing department demanded? The article wasn't demanding "perfect". Some RPMs included in the distribution that wouldn't install!

      I'm not anti-Linux. I like it so much that I want us to use on it the same (or higher) standards we judge software we pay for.

  • by bahamat (187909) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:04PM (#7459312) Homepage
    The community of dedicated bug reporters/developers has largely shifted to Debian. Most users of RH/Fedora don't want to file a bug report when they find one. They want it to be fixed long before they ever have the chance to find it. I know a lot of people who use RH, and none of them are inclined to file bug reports. The bulk of technical Debian users run unstable, and submit bug reports as often as they encounter problems. I think the reality of the situation is that the strength of the community isn't in RedHat any longer.
    • by RevDobbs (313888) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:11PM (#7459391) Homepage

      Funny, my girlfriend also rated me as a "Mild Disappointment". I too, cited a lack QA testing, but she just wasn't hearing it.

      The community of dedicated bug reporters/developers has largely shifted to Debian.

      Man... if only I could find a whole community of QA testers...

    • And this is the main reason I'll be moving from RH9 to Mandrake, instead of Fedora. With RH9 I got a cheap desktop distro with RedHat's standard QA behind up2date so I didn't have to worry about it (unless I chose to spend my time doing so). By moving to Mandrake -- which is arguably more user-friendly -- I'll get the support, but only lose the familiarlity of working with a redhat-ish desktop that is/was the gateway to the enterprise.

      --

      • by HiThere (15173) *
        Wait for some more reports before going to Mandrake 9.2. I had some problems that caused me to switch away from it rather quickly. Possibly software updates would have fixed this, but all the mirrors appeared unuseable...and I'm a MandrakeClub member, so I have access to supposedly private servers. The synthesis files seem to be garbaged.

        (Whatever, it didn't solve the problem that I was trying it for, so I'm back to LibraNet Debian... with renewed appreciation.)

        OTOH, if it works on your hardware, and i
    • by Hrunting (2191) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @09:59PM (#7460383) Homepage
      Those of us that do file bugs with Redhat in bugzilla have learned that they rarely get addressed unless you yourself provide the solution. There are a few package managers that keep up (httpd, net-snmp), but kernel bugs? Forget about it. Perl bugs? Forget about it. You can give the most detailed bug report possible and you're still lucky if it even gets addressed.

      Hell, the other day I reported a bug in anaconda that causes every single raid5 installation to be suspect to corruption, and so far, not even a reply. The most I've seen is that they added someone else's e-mail address to the bug.

      Maybe it's not that no one files bugs. Maybe it's that people learned that filing bugs with RedHat was futile.
    • by Nailer (69468) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @10:02PM (#7460399)
      I think you've made a good point, but Fedora will go a long way to resolving that situation - particularly as Red Hat's more immediately accessable default installer and desktop appeal more to new users - its a chance to get them hooked into bug reporting and, hopefully even better, documentation (one of the areas where Linux needs the msot improvement).

      Look at what's happened over the last year - besides the Fedora merger, FreshRPMs, ATRPMs, NewRPMs, and Dag have combined to ensure consistent policy across their repositories. Yellowdog is now likely to become Fedora PPC too.

      Developers who work on server software in particular (according to Netcraft and IDC Red Hat dominates in this area) might also be attracted to the 6 month release cycle of Fedora versus the perpetually updating and more bleeding edge testing or unstable.
  • by jroysdon (201893) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:04PM (#7459316) Homepage
    Those from the #fedora IRC channel on irc.freenode.net have started an unofficial FAQ.

    I highly suggest browsing through the various issues others have had, before you decide to upgrade from RH or try a fresh install.

    fedora.artoo.net [artoo.net].
    • BTW: We the FAQ contains info for nVidia [artoo.net] and RhythmBox [artoo.net].

      You'd think the guy would at least try RedHat's suggested support mechanism: irc://irc.freenode.net#fedora [irc] where we link to this unofficial FAQ and will help users solve these problems.

      Folks there have been solving these questions as they pop up. Sometimes there is no fix, sometimes it turns out to be something stupid in FC1 that shouldn't be that way, but it is a .0 release, and there often are work-arounds or fixes.
  • by Raxxon (6291) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:05PM (#7459328)
    It's something from RedHat. RedHat has had problems since the dark ages with x.0 releases, which is what Fedora basically is.

    I'm having code compile issues because of the new linking setup myself. Code the compiled perfectly under RHL 9 blows up on FC1.... Can't say I didn't expect this to be a problem free migration. Reminds me of when RH first kicked out the glib updates... Code all over the place blew up left and right until everything else started updating.
  • Not bad for a V1... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by DraKKon (7117) *
    Although is not RedHat Linux 10, its pretty good for a v1.0 ... 1.1 or 2 should be pretty kick ass.. at least I hope..
  • What a shock (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ViceClown (39698) * on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:07PM (#7459356) Homepage Journal
    Another thumbs down from Eugenia Loli-Queru. This from the person who gave a sorta-review of Suse based on screen shots. Give me a break. Sorry for the flames but I stopped reading OSNews long ago because of her half assed ramblings. Let Ars or something get ahold of Fedora and then I'll know Im getting a well thought out review... good or bad. Next...
  • So what's new? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Black Parrot (19622) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:09PM (#7459371)


    > since Red Hat has shifted focus to Enterprise, with Fedora serving merely as a testbed for them.

    That was kinda my impression of RH9, for that matter.

  • by Lord Kano (13027) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:10PM (#7459374) Homepage Journal
    This is why people like me were bitching about Red hat's shift in focus.

    Sure, Red Hat Enterprise Linux will be all but bulletproof and stable, but what about those of us who aren't using linux to displace Solaris or NT Servers?

    What about those of us who want to do a little Gimping or serve our home LANs? At the risk of drawing the fire of the distro zealots, this is the precise reason why I switched to Mandrake at about the same time as RHAT's IPO.

    LK
    • > At the risk of drawing the fire of the distro zealots, this is the precise reason why I switched to Mandrake at about the same time as RHAT's IPO.

      You beat me to the change to MDK; I've only done it recently now that the whole focus change is appropriately official, and hobbyist versions are being EOL'ed Real Soon Now. I staved off the need to change by not wanting to really learn new quirks in a new distro. (what the conf file is called, where it is at, how the libraries are named/located, what nifty

    • Sure, Red Hat Enterprise Linux will be all but bulletproof and stable, but what about those of us who aren't using linux to displace Solaris or NT Servers?

      No it won't. It wasn't any more stable in the first place. But now they're losing a HUGE base of testers. What is going to make RHEL stable? It is going to get LESS stable!

  • by MarcoAtWork (28889) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:10PM (#7459378)
    recompile using the mozilla nss and nspr libraries (there was a post on the gaim mailing list about how to do that) which is much easier to get to work.

    Now, if anybody could find out how to compile galeon 1.2.x with Mozilla 1.4 or, better, 1.5 I'm all ears, I've tried the CVS version and no dice (and no, I'm not moving to Galeon 2, which is FAR less useable than galeon 1.2, I'm wondering if the developers actually -use- the thing)
  • Applications indeed start pretty fast and especially some third party statically-linked apps (e.g. Lost Marble's Moho or Blender) load immediately. I have never seen Moho load so fast, not even on BeOS (which was its original platform).

    Really putting that distro through the paces huh... :)

    -dameron
  • Fedora Fine for Me (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Sir Kewl (657440) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:10PM (#7459382) Homepage
    I am using Fedora right now to write this comment. While some of the bugs mentioned in the article are valid points, I have no problems with multimedia playback, using yum and rpm.livna.org to download mplayer, xine and xmms-mp3 was quite painless. Perhaps the author should have subscribed to the fedora mailing list before he tried the distro. The RPM problem has been fixed, installation of ATI 3D drivers was painless.

    I just want to give a big THANK YOU to the whole Fedora team. The release had its problems but I am happy with my setup!
  • by YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT (651184) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:12PM (#7459406) Homepage Journal

    But I wish there were more people writing distro reviews. OSNews seems to be one of the few sources that get any play on here, ( heck, they may be one of the few sources full stop ), and it would be nice if we could get some variety of opinion / requirements / analysis from a variety of different viewpoints.

    The gaming, productivity and utility software industries have hundreds of review sites spanning all over the web, and while I recognise that individual distro releases rarely represent as big a market impact to Joe Public as, say, the latest iD game, it would be nice to see a bit more heterogeny.

    Just another thought - these reviews all seem to have to rush themselves, and rarely have time to evaluate long term issues or strengths that arise after a bit of persistant use ~ an example has been the recent rave reviews in the print media of Panther, which I adore, but had several showstopper bugs in .0 which nobody seemed to pick up on until they starting munching on user preferences for breakfast.

    YLFI
    p.s. Worst run on sentance ever.
  • Use it properly. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by reaper20 (23396) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:15PM (#7459445) Homepage
    This "review" is fundamentally flawed, because I have no idea where in the release notes or Fedora FAQs it states to do what she did to this box, this reads like a whine-fest because Red Hat did not fix her favorite bugs:

    a) So, the first thing she does is install a third party RPM and then wonders why it blows up in her face? How about the RPMs that came with the distribution? So, the install is brand new already broken in a VMWare installation.

    b) Why is she using apt and synaptic? They don't even come with Fedora.

    c) The RPM from Sun installs the JVM in all the Mozilla browser's (I didn't install KDE so I can't speak for Konqueror) and even integrates into the GNOME menu.

    d) The well known limitations of Fedora's multimedia capabilities plague every linux distribution. It's not Fedora's fault that US laws suck. It's as easy to add multimedia in Fedora as it is in debian, you add one non-free source and you're done.

    Here's a hint, if you're the kind of person that worries about moving from gaim .71 to .72 right after you install your distribution, then Fedora probably is not for you. Or you could wait until updated RPMs hit the official repositories instead of grabbing Joe Bob's RPM build and wondering why your installation exploded.
    • b) Why is she using apt and synaptic? They don't even come with Fedora.

      uh, yes it does [fedora.us].
    • Thank you (Score:3, Informative)

      by crush (19364)
      Eugenia is obviously interested in banging the same old drum again and again ..... some of these points were made to her the last time she reviewed RH9 and RH8 and yet she appears incapable of learning that RH is _not_ going to come with MP3 support until the IP situation is sorted.

      She was also told that she should use official RPMs and yet she continues to ignore thsi.

      I used to look at OSNews occasionally, but I think I just won't bother as it's irritation without information.

      (Oh yeah ... Debian is my p
      • > that RH is _not_ going to come with MP3 support until the IP situation is sorted.

        Alright. Fine. How about Fedora however? Is it really a community distro or just a puppet of RH's commercial interests?
    • Re:Use it properly. (Score:4, Informative)

      by reaper20 (23396) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:35PM (#7459645) Homepage
      Replying to myself... Linux.Ars [arstechnica.com] did a short intro to Fedora here [arstechnica.com], though it is not a full review.

      If you need help installing it, checkout the #fedora unofficial FAQ [artoo.net], it answers 90% of people's questions, and if you're new to Linux, we have thread [infopop.net] at Ars that should help you along.

      If you want to know how Fedora is, you should probably ask people that use it, it's unfortunate that such a good release is mired with the typical anti-Red Hat sentiment. What's next? "OMFG Red Hat is sleeping with my wife!"
    • "b) Why is she using apt and synaptic? They don't even come with Fedora."

      Where does she say she is? She says in one spot that using them "wouldn't have helped in this situation", which is true in that case (the Flash install), but they *would* have helped her with most of her other problems. Or at least helped her avoid them.

      And yes, apt comes with Fedora, and Synaptic has already been adapted for it. It works fine - see my last post.

      Oh, and I'm running Flash fine on my Fedora - carried over from my R
  • Gaim (Score:5, Informative)

    by Espectr0 (577637) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:18PM (#7459472) Journal
    If she would have read Gaim's page, she would have learned that gaim needs mozilla's NSS and NSPR to get ssl support for the msn plugin.
    • Re:Gaim (Score:5, Informative)

      by ChipX86 (102440) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:44PM (#7459735) Homepage
      Actually, NSS/NSPR *or* GNUTLS work just fine. We offer a choice. The reviewer just didn't really install things right, and I imagine was a bit impatient. This was a Gaim issue. It never should have been brought up in a Fedora review. We will be releasing Fedora RPMs of Gaim for 0.73 anyway. The reviewer can be patient ;)

      This is why it's good to ask. We don't bite.
  • by darnok (650458) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:19PM (#7459488)
    My understanding is that IBM currently recommends either SuSE or Redhat for its Linux customers, depending on where the customer is based. Given that lots of "big" customers have small offices in the boondocks, what are they going to recommend?

    Small site typically equates to "we want it cheap, we want it reliable and we want it now. Even though we're part of a big company, head office says we have to keep our costs very low. If we don't we shut up shop". Once you add up lots of small sites, they actually carry a bit of clout in a large organization; you'd better be able to deliver a solution that fits their needs if you want to retain that customer. Quite often, a small site exists solely to service one big customer; global HQ wants to keep that small site happy.

    Non-enterprise RedHat fit the bill perfectly for small sites, but SuSE might be too expensive given the lack of a download-only release. I'd assume IBM was hoping Fedora might be a good substitute for non-enterprise RedHat, but if not, which way will they turn?
    • Non-enterprise RedHat fit the bill perfectly for small sites, but SuSE might be too expensive given the lack of a download-only release. I'd assume IBM was hoping Fedora might be a good substitute for non-enterprise RedHat, but if not, which way will they turn?

      It would behoove IBM to support a community distro that they can have some influence over and that won't disappear randomly. That influence comes simply by helping out to improve it as needed to better meet their customers' needs. Debian is the la
  • I've been waiting, and excited, about Fedora from the time I first heard about the project. An avid RedHat fan since 7.2, I was looking to Fedora to be a similar functioning distro, with more current default packages, and the same level of stability I'd come to expect with Red Hat. It isn't. I ran into the same problems with Flash and resolving dependencies from the CDROM. The menus and taskbar paused and came up jerky, and the overall distro seemed far from polished. I respect that the author spent enough
  • Go easy folks! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by OldBen (14811) <mjm1138&gmail,com> on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:28PM (#7459589) Homepage
    It's strange to me how everyone is jumping on RedHat about Fedora. First how RedHat "abandoned the community" when they EOL'ed RedHat Linux, and how crying betrayal because what amounts to the 1.0 release of a new distribution has a few bugs? Take a breath, folks!

    Fedora represents a shift to a new development model which is more community centric; of COURSE there are going to be problems with the 1.0 release. Is that a reason to bag the whole thing and declare it dead? Please!

    I'm running Fedora 1.0 on a couple of machines. While there are a couple of quirks, I'd say that overall it's a fine distribution, and an improvement from RH 9.0. I'm certainly going to give it more than a week before I condemn the whole project! Meantime I'm going to reflect on the fact, that people seem to like to forget, that the whole OSS community owes a debt of gratitude to RedHat. RedHat has consistently failed to live up to conspiracy theories about "betraying the community".
    • Re:Go easy folks! (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Ogerman (136333)
      Fedora represents a shift to a new development model which is more community centric; of COURSE there are going to be problems with the 1.0 release. Is that a reason to bag the whole thing and declare it dead? Please!

      Fedora should never have been started. It's redundant. It's a waste of people's talents. There's no need for multiple community projects packaging the exact same software. Debian and Gentoo already fill this need. And even Gentoo is probably redundant, though at least it brings something
  • At home, I moved off of a Redhat 9 that broke my USB keyboard to Suse. I like Suse at home. Web surfing is better than it ever was under Redhat, and it makes a point of getting fonts right.

    However, for the office workstation, I went for RH WS. Why? I like the blue curve interface, and I like the promised performance improvements. Further, Suse seems a little bit behind on security (passwords of 8 characters and a more limited character set).

    I would have liked it if RH had maintained a decent, not sup
  • Purple Hat (Score:2, Funny)

    by Neo-Rio-101 (700494)
    You know, I think a feathered purple pimp fedora would be better suited for this distro rather than the Red Hat.

    See, Fedora is pimped out with all the latest stuff... but underneath the covers the system is cheap and sleazy.

    I tried updating my RH9 with Fedora, and it totally trashed Mozilla. I go type in something in the URL... and Mozilla vanished!



  • There _are_ ISO's of RHEL floating around, you know...Nobody has to settle for Fedora.

    Red Hat Enterprise Linux (Taroon) ISO images here." [google.com]

    BTW, please stop sucking immediately, Red Hat. Seriously. You're starting to piss me off.

    Cheers,
  • Screenshots (Score:2, Informative)

    by boarder8925 (714555)
    Here are some sites with screenshots of Fedora:

    http://www.dark-hill.co.uk/fedora/ [dark-hill.co.uk]
    http://anyweb.kicks-ass.net/linux/fedora/index1.ht ml [kicks-ass.net]
  • So I started out w/RH 9. Then a few months back, was keeping pretty up on the Rawhide releases. Then, a few weeks ago, I started running the NPTL kernels and the latest XFree release.

    I don't like the gui services boot - which I know can be disabled. The only other honking issue I've run into is external FireWire drive support. Apparently there have been some issues with that lately, altho, it worked perfectly in 9.

    I prob won't move to Fedora just yet until I read some better things about it. But my hybrid
  • With the recent FUD campaign, it would seem MS may be referencing Fedora when it says it is prepared to lay the smack down Linux security issues [slashdot.org]

    Remember, this article is a User Review only.
    An extensive security audit should be made immediately to help bolster the distro.

    I'd bet MS has downloaded the sources and is completing it's own security audit of Fedora with the intent to hoist it on a petard.
  • by ChangeOnInstall (589099) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:40PM (#7459701)
    I've got Fedora Core 1 running at home, and soon will be upgrading the RH9 machine at work. Java and Eclipse seem to work fine (which is the major requirement for me). Fedora appears to me to be exactly what I would have expected from a "Red Hat 10" distribution.

    Now for my three issues:

    #1. GTK/Gnome file selector *still* sucks. We all already knew that, and yes it's going to be fixed in the next GTK. But I wish RH had seen fit to do what the folks at Ximian did, and at least pretty up the existing one and make it somewhat usable. Those "Home" "Desktop" and "Documents" quick access buttons in the XD2 version make things much nicer.

    #2. No menu editing. Again, it's a Gnome problem, and is due to be fixed in the next Gnome (2.6), I believe. Unfortunately I just read a mailing list posting indicating that they while they were fixing the menu architecture, they weren't all that concerned with providing editing capability. I'm not certain I understand what's going on here though, as I wish RH would just support the same menu-editing functionality found in Ximian Desktop 2. It's not great, but at least it's possible.

    #3. Using the RedHat network configurator, I changed the hostname of the machine from localhost to something a little more personalized. It failed to add the new hostname to the /etc/hosts file, and as a result all my GConf stuff (I think) got corrupted to the point that Gnome couldn't start without displaying a few error messages every time. I added the entry manually, and would up having to delete all the gnome/gconf config data in my user account to make Gnome happy again. This issue ought to be easily enough resolved, and I'll be reporting it as a bug.

    Other than that though, it's very nice. As far as I can tell, it's an all around improvement over RH9. I can't wait till these last few rough edges get smoothed out.
  • I've been having better luck than most with Fedora, it seems, and have in fact gotten more to work with it than any other distro I've tried so far (two separate Mandrake installs both broke beyond the point of repair for me, and Red Hat 8 and 9 both worked fairly well but not quite as well as Fedora). Honestly, when I see people whining about dependencies as in the linked article, I wonder why the hell they're insisting on living in the stone ages as they are. One of the major new features of Fedora is th
  • I mean, I don't think I've really seen her give a glowing review to anything.

    Besides, who made her *the* expert.

    Bah.

    GJC
  • by mrsam (12205) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:50PM (#7459790) Homepage
    A small disclaimer: I haven't yet upgraded by RH9 boxes to FC1, so I might end up reaching the same conclusion, but I can already see a bunch of red flags in that "review".

    The box I'm typing on now began its life running Red Hat 4.2. It's been upgraded countless number of times, and it's now on Red Hat 9. And it's rock-stable solid. And the reason that it's stable, and functional, is precisely because what I've been doing, for the last six years, was the exact opposite of what this "review"er did.

    Notice that she began having problems when she tried to hack together an upgrade to some application. Lesson number one when running Red Hat: do not install any software yourself. Always use rpm, which checks in, keeps track of, and maintains, all the inter-library and inter-application dependencies. Once you begin flinging random libraries and applications into the system, some of which may or may not overwrite existing libraries or files, you're well on your merry way to Linux's equivalent of Windows DLL hell, when you've got ten versions of the same basic library installed in fifteen different directories, and you now have absolutely no clue whatsoever what you end up running when you start a given application. Which randomly crashes, I wonder why?

    By the way, the same also applies to other Linux distros too, I'm sure. They all use some kind of a package management system, be it rpm or apt. The same principle applies in either case.

    My box is very solid even though I have plenty of custom software installed which I've compiled and built myself. But the key difference is that all the software was installed by rpm. Rach time I upgraded to a new distribution release, the installer correctly detected that I have an application that has a dependency on an older version of the library. The installer then proceeds to load a compatibility library, in addition to the new, incompatible version of the library. After upgrading, I then recompile all my custom software and install the new RPMs, whenever I have some free time. Everything still works in the meantime, because all the dependencies are correctly satisfied.

    Eventually, I get around to cleaning out my box, seeing which compatibility libraries can be removed. When I try to remove them, inevitable RPM complains because I forgot to recompile some application that still depends on the old library. After doing that, and when nothing no longer needs it, it gets removed by rpm without a peep.

    I also see that the reviewer grabbed some random third-party RPM from some dark alley (strike 1). Unsurprisingly, rpm refused to install it due to missing dependencies (strike 2). The reviewer tried to fix the situation by, once again, grabbing a bunch of third party libraries, and installing them manually (strike 3). End result: a big, recursive mess (strike 4).

    I wonder why?

    Sheesh, what exactly are the qualification to be an "OS reviewer", these days???

  • Anybody using a 3COM 905C-TX card will probably run into this. Let this be a warning to you: disable Kudzu first chance you get. Otherwise the card'll get buggered up and you'll have trouble booting. If you DO manage to boot, you'll never get the card running properly while Kudzu is still active.

    Disabling Kudzu service solved the problem. Apparently I'm only one of dozens who has encountered this. The same issue does not appear in any of the half-dozen versions of Linux I've tried before on that particula
  • And It seems about as good as Lycoris..

    A little bit TOO Dumbed down.. buggy in spots..

    *shrug* I'm going back to old reliable GENTOO...
  • It looks like redhat-config-network is not running with root permissions. There is no icon on the panel for the root password caching app.

    When I setup flash on one of my systems here I had no trouble. Just downloaded it, ran the install, and it just worked.

  • Regarding Redhat (Score:4, Interesting)

    by nate nice (672391) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @08:58PM (#7459859) Journal
    It's good that they are putting all their resources into the enterprise segment, specializing in servers mainly. This is where Linux needs to be. Spreading Linux (meaning resources, the people working with it) too thin at this point, between servers and desktops, is the wrong choice currently. We are in a battle with Microsoft mainly. Microsoft is the undisputed king of desktops. We need to keep making Linux the choice for server and back-office type applications as this is it's strongest position right now and the one place it really can compete with Microsoft.

    Microsoft has, in essence, infinite money to put into anything it wants. It currently wants the server market, badly. If they can control this then they will can make communications propriety and fulfill their dreams of world domination, thus have a total monopoly over the desktop and server as they can make them integrate seamlessly and become the sole designer of all applications that require the server-client model and beyond.

    Linux currently has a fabulous market share within servers and the fight must continue to make these numbers higher. Spending all the time and resources on desktop issues, such as ease of use just is not the fight to be in right now. It's a fight that really, at the moment or any time soon, cannot be won. The fight for servers can be won.

    The developers and contributers to Linux and Linux applications should be doing everything we can to make Linux the de-facto standard on the server. It would be foolish to not recognize our great fortune with our position in the server market. This is why I think Redhat is not only making a wise business move, but also one that will help Linux in general.
  • Fedora works great (Score:5, Informative)

    by pridkett (2666) <slashdot@wagCHEETAHstrom.net minus cat> on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @09:00PM (#7459882) Homepage Journal
    So I've learned to take anything that OSNews writes with a grain of salt, their articles aren't exactly up to any sort of journalistic integrity standards. So that probably biased me from the start.

    I've been running Fedora Core 1 on my Thinkpad A31 laptop since last Thursday and I'm quite pleased. There were some hiccups because the upgrade from RH9 crashed hard, mainly because I had two many external RPMS installed (had previously upgraded to gnome 2.4 on RH9). So, after moving some data, I did a fresh install and it appears to work just fine.

    Some of the great highlights of the distro:

    Sleep on the Thinkpads work. I don't have to do the funky virtual terminal dance after my monitor goes off.

    Speedstep stuff is part of the distro. This is also nice to not see my battery get sucked to nothing when I unplug it.

    The wireless support is improved. Redhat-config-network works quite well for switching profiles between home and school.

    Although it doesn't ship with stuff like MPlayer and a good MP3 player, rpm.livna.org has YUM and APT repositories to fix this no problem.

    The revisions to blue curve are quite nice, it gives it a nicer look that isn't so sterile.

    Supposed the NPTL backport improves Java app performance. Ecplise seems zippier, but it could be delusion. Actually, most everything seems a bit zippier, probably because the OS is no longer compiled for 386s.

    Flash installed without a problem, no idea what Eugenia is complaining about.

    Java works just fine in the browser too. Maybe she didn't read any of the documentation that came with her Whizbang GeneroBrowser 0.1rc2 or whatever she uses.

    The issue is that Fedora isn't meant to be bleeding edge and she is thinking that it is. If you want bleeding edge use Gentoo. Personally I can deal with a nice middle ground between Debian and Gentoo and Fedora fits that nicely.

  • by Bruha (412869) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @09:13PM (#7459990) Homepage Journal
    I dont know what that guy was smoking but please let me have some.

    My laptop has been a PITA with Mandrake 9 and 9.1 SuSE 8.2 and Redhat 8x and 9..

    Install Fedora

    ACPI works
    Mouse works and it's shutoff button above it.
    Broadcom 54G wireless works with Linuxant's driver

    I couldnt be happier with this setup.

    Now my only concern is one email on the list about patches for security will not be high priority and if you want quick patches to purchase RH WS or ES..

    We'll I'm not using it for work just personal. And frankly redhat should still provide fedora patches especially security ones ASAP. Otherwise it will give MS more fuel for their security FUD.

    now to order a pizza from the couch via my linux laptop!
  • by slamb (119285) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @09:19PM (#7460060) Homepage

    ...whatever supposed usability problems Fedora has, there's some great new technology behind it.

    For example: they've got a new and shiny version of the glibc & NPTL. This threading support is worlds better than anything I've seen in other distributions or most other operating systems. I wrote a small test [slamb.org] for C++-safe thread cancellation support. It failed on pretty much every system I tried. Only Fedora Core 1 and Tru64 passed. This is a behavior more hinted at than mandated by the pthread standard at this point, but realistically, no one would ever use thread cancellation in a C++ program if it didn't work the way it does in Fedora.

    There are lots of architectural improvements like that always thrown into a new RedHat release, and I think Fedora will be no different. It leads to their problems with x.0 releases, but I think it's worth it.

    In my mind, Fedora Core 1 is RedHat 10 - the name + the community. It even upgraded from my RedHat 9 installation. That's a dead give-away.

  • by jbn-o (555068) <mail@digitalcitizen.info> on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @09:53PM (#7460332) Homepage

    I find that FC1 is not yet ready for the masses, but I arrive at that conclusion from a different angle than Eugenia Loli-Queru's--I'm using nothing on the system but what was supplied to me on the FC1 discs. I have no interest in doing things I can't do with non-free software (and a lot of things I can do with free software don't interest me either). I don't care about Flash or Java, and I'd rather play Ogg Vorbis files/webcasts than MP3s. I'm testing this on a 840.015MHz Pentium III (according to /proc/cpuinfo) with 768MB RAM.

    Unfortunately, FC1 is still not something I can fully recommend to my friends who aren't so technical. I don't think it was a good idea to release the OS with the Add/Remove Software panel program not working and the RPM database being flaky. I keep bumping into problems with these two aspects of the system when I try to fix something in a way that can be easily removed or upgraded via RPM.

    Some things I wished were a part of the default install for a workstation user include an OCR program (GOCR [sourceforge.net], for instance). I think OCR support is important and I'm not wedded to any particular OCR program, but GOCR (or JOCR) seems to be compatibly licensed and offer easy-to-use CLI access. With more users and more programmers, GOCR will become a better program for OCRing. The Add/Remove Software panel problem and the RPM database problem Loli-Queru mentioned make installing additional packages more difficult than they should be.

    Other parts of FC1 I find mildly annoying, but not showstoppers: the up2date registration screen seems pointless to me now that it appears you don't need to register to get FC1 updates from the default location. I'm not sure why I was asked to supply an extant RHN ID or create a new one. To the uninitiated user, this could come off as peculiar to the point of wondering if their system is legitimate (at least until they see that updates are available to them). Focusing unfocused windows by clicking on their titlebar seems to make the window stick the mouse (and the cursor turn to the plus pointer). This was unexpected and not pleasant; because of this behavior I inadvertantly move windows a lot.

    Unlike Loli-Queru, I would not have expected other packages to work seamlessly with FC1 out of the box (as Loli-Queru expected Flash to work). I figure those packages will come along as more people use the system.

    One thing that could make bug reporting easier is if there were simpler categories in which to report errors. Novices are unlikely to know that something odd on the display (like the visual noise I get when moving windows around) is an XFree86 issue as opposed to a Linux kernal issue or a GNOME issue. To get helpful commentary from users, I think it would help to not have to know all the layers of a typical GNU/Linux installation. But this means more people crawling through bug databases reassigning bugs to the proper place. I'm not sure how to best handle the problem, but I think making bug database entry simpler and easier to do ad hoc is a step in the right direction.

    Overall, it's an interesting system and I plan to give FC some more tries before I decide to go with another distribution. I'll continue to use RH9 or Debian as my day-to-day GNU/Linux distribution until FC3 or FC4 is out.

    Happy hacking.

  • by josevnz (647715) on Wednesday November 12, 2003 @10:54PM (#7460714) Journal
    I downloaded the Fedora ISOs two days ago; I though "well, my company is evaluating buying RedHat ES for their servers and maybe I can still use Fedora on my personal computer or my laptop, so I can see what is comming" so I gave it a shot.

    Here is what I found:

    First the good things:
    - The installer is much better and gives you the option to upgrade from RedHat 9 to fedora.
    - The Video configuration is much more responsive. It got some problems with my NVidia drivers, but it managed to start again without much effort (though the acelerated drivers were deactivaded).
    - The OS is much responsive. The Java apps ran faster and i was able to run more things at the same time using the same equipment (Its an old 800Mhz 512MB of ram Dell desktop machine).

    Now the bad things:
    - I had to reinstall the OS without upgrading; Upgrading broke my printer support (though it got fixed after the reinstall). Also my old GNOME desktop configuration broke. If you can, install from scratch (I have my home directory on a different partition so it wasn't that bad).
    - GCVS doesn't work with Fedora. There is a nasty compilation error that prevents it from compile.
    - Mozilla is pretty unstable. It crashed today at least four times.
    - Firewall builder has some compilation problems.

    Luckily I'm the type of user that doesn't need the RedHat support for trivial problems, so their support is not appealing to me (I can survive buyin the WS edition for $179). But now with RedHat saying that they will not support RedHat on the desktop (use Microsoft Windows they say) makes me wonder how good will be WS for application development without an appropiate desktop support (how good or bad the GUI support like GNOME or KDE will be there?).

    I'm used to browse the web, chat and read email from Linux; At my work I don't use Windows at all (got OpenOffice, evolution, Jedit and Vi to do all the stuff I require). It is sad to install a Windows license to later log on your Linux server to do development or to administer it.

    Don't get me wrong here; I've been a supporter of RedHat in the past (bought their CDs, become a RedHat Certified Engineer), but what incentive I have to report bugs / contribute code / support a 'beta' distribution like Fedora if I'm not going to receive security updates (they state that kind of support is not guaranteed and if the broken app doesn't get a patch then it is removed from the distro).

    RedHat needs to come with more information about WS on the desktop, a better support structure for Fedora (security patches, quality control) or their user base will probably move to another distro (why support two flavors of Linux, lets say RedHat and Suse / Debian when they offer support for the desktop and the server).

    I wish Mac OS X boxes were cheaper, probably that's an option to consider ;)

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