Who Needs XFree86? 269
An anonymous reader writes "With this review Linux and Main says it is kicking off a project to put together a Linux machine that operates entirely in the console, including applications, without the user ever having to enter anything at a command prompt. The review is of Twin, the very cool windowing environment for the console. Applications will be added over time, and readers are invited to nominate their favorite little-known console applications."
X (and other Window systems) reduce productivity (Score:4, Interesting)
tends to reduce productivity. A simple text
based console app allows you to focus w/o
disractions.
In years past, I knew of someone who used
emacs as his login shell
---eludom
Re:X (and other Window systems) reduce productivit (Score:5, Funny)
I don't know what's more frightening, that he did or that you can.
Re:X (and other Window systems) reduce productivit (Score:5, Funny)
The only thing he found wanting in emacs was a good text editor :)
Re:X (and other Window systems) reduce productivit (Score:2, Funny)
So did he end up using Vi?
Re:X (and other Window systems) reduce productivit (Score:2, Funny)
Are you kidding? There's a great editor for EMACS [ualberta.ca]!
Re:X (and other Window systems) reduce productivit (Score:2)
Re:X (and other Window systems) reduce productivit (Score:2)
Re:X (and other Window systems) reduce productivit (Score:2, Offtopic)
Re:X (and other Window systems) reduce productivit (Score:4, Funny)
-- main.c Sun Jun 3 22:02:34 2001
+++ main.c~ Tue Jul 10 16:05:26 2001
@@ -789,9 +789,9 @@
if (execute_command) execve(execute_command,argv_init,envp_init);
&nb
- execve("/etc/init",argv_init,envp_init);
- execve("/bin/init",argv_init,envp_init);
- execve("/bin/sh",argv_init,envp_init);
- panic("No init found. Try passing init= option to kernel.");
+ execve("/usr/bin/emacs",argv_init,envp_init);
&n
+ execve("/bin/emacs",argv_init,envp_init);
+ execve("/usr/bin/xemacs",argv_init,envp_init);
&
}
Copyright
Re:X (and other Window systems) reduce productivit (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Emacs bloat (Score:4, Insightful)
Step futher? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Step futher? (Score:2)
Re:Step futher? (Score:4, Informative)
You can take a look at The Symbolics LispM Museum [uni-hamburg.de] for more information and pictures.
Re:Step futher? (Score:2)
I didn't want to do that. Original post was a joke about booting directly into emacs, so I was wondering if it was a (theoretical) possibility.
Re:Step futher? (Score:3)
Re:X (and other Window systems) reduce productivit (Score:2, Funny)
Re:X (and other Window systems) reduce productivit (Score:4, Insightful)
Let's assume that you are right. But if a simple text based console can improve productivity, then what can a GUI (that means one background image and 12 Xterms) do to your productivity?
Well, the other side of the medal is that in our daily work we are usually forced to do more than one thing at the same time. And for that I really prefer to have some virtual terminals on my graphical desktop, so I can use the power of the text console and multiply that power by using it on several tasks simultaneously.
Re:X (and other Window systems) reduce productivit (Score:2)
-Kevin
Re:X (and other Window systems) reduce productivit (Score:3, Insightful)
Personally I'm comfortable in both, but if it's a choice between arsing aroung for hours trying to set up a network, reading the nitpicky details of some config fil
kind of neat (Score:2, Interesting)
Me? I think X is fine... If I can scale it down to fit on a floppy WITH my kernel and ramfs filesystem (tinyx) then it's perfect for me.
AA support? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:AA support? (Score:5, Funny)
Also with a hardware radio tuner and the right country of residence you can get
alpha channel! [m-sat.bg]
Re:Yes.. (Score:5, Interesting)
This is cool. (Score:2, Insightful)
If you have an older box, you can make it a very serviceable desktop. My only question is, does anyone have any information on the kind of resources it requires?
Re:This is cool. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm assuming the resource use is pretty minimal, even the version running under X, and I believe there are some s
Ah memories... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Ah memories... (Score:5, Insightful)
Reminds me of the old Windows 1.0 days... Looked just like that, except not as advanced.
Actually it looks very little like Windows 1.0 (speaking as someone who actually used it - for work). Windows 1.0 didn't have overlapping windows, but was graphical. Twin is the opposite way around.
It is very strongly reminiscent of Quarterdeck's DESQview, screenshots circa 1988. It could run textual and graphical apps side by side - pretty revolutionary (in the PeeCee world) for the time.
Rich.
Two questions (Score:4, Insightful)
2. If I am going to use the box as a workstation, why do I want to use something ugly that makes my eyes bleed?
I can't find a valid use for this sort of system. Can anyone?
Re:Two questions (Score:2, Insightful)
Imagine this:
You buy 20 10$ 333mhz computers off Ebay or some cheap wholesale outlet.
Retrofit them with BSD/Linux/Whatever, put this on it as the primary interaction with the machine, and install all these computers in a programming class or something.
Now you have a very effective, efficient, and very affordable computer lab for a school. For 200$, you have just created a whole computer lab. Dell tries to sell schools cheap computers for 1500$.
Re:Two questions (Score:4, Informative)
You can easily run X on a 333 Mhz machine.
I use a PII 333 as my server and desktop, and I have very little incentive to upgrade.
If you want to give an example of a bitty box you can't run X on, pick something lower down in the pecking order.
Re:Two questions (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
Ha. I ran X on a 386/40 with 8MB RAM and a Hercules monochrome card.
Of course, I only did it once. It had to swap just to blank the screen.
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
(The X protocol isn't so heavyweight that it couldn't be implemented above a lightweight OS on a machine with those sort of specs, though, is it? XFree, Linux, et. al. are pretty chunky in terms of resources required (you'll have to excuse me, my standards of machine were set back in the 8-bit days
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
Of course, you can't run OpenOffice on your 90 Mhz machine
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
This thing is text mode, so in theory you could run it over a terminal window, right? This would be MUCH faster. Midnight Commander runs *great* in PuTTY, for instance.
And I don't think its so ugly. It kinda reminds me of m
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
VNC wastes a lot of bandwidth transferring stuff that could be done by the local workstation (colors, shapes etc.)...
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
Secondly, X is decidely not a very secure protocol. You can run X over SSH, sure but you've still gotta have the X ports open on your firewall, which in my book, is a bit scary.
Re:Two questions (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
Get real, that's about what a 56k modem can handle. Most cable and xDSLs has atleast 128k up... Tight, but not impossible for X
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
Re:Two questions (Score:2, Funny)
Sorry, that's just the way they make those Mac cases... *ducks*
Re:Two questions (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Two questions (Score:3, Insightful)
Open source isn't about taking over the world, not for most of the people who actually contribute to it (as opposed to the leeches who
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
Re:Two questions (Score:2)
Apart from the old "more choice is better" argument, I firmly believe we should celebrate lean systems and minimalist configurations.
The screenshots of Twin brought back memories of running DESQView on DOS. Now that was a kick-ass program. And I never felt cramped in my 80x25 character screen.
This reminds me of an old DOS text editor. It was fairly full-featured (better than DOS's own EDIT program). The really cool thing was that is took
Any Pascal coders here? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Any Pascal coders here? (Score:2)
Yup - count me in. I had the same association to Turbo Vision within seconds.
I do. (Score:2, Informative)
Wow, I did the same thing! (Score:2)
I basically forgot all about it when I got a Pentium with Win95 and S
I need XFree86. (Score:3, Insightful)
"Of course, all of the software I write runs on Linux; that's the beauty of standards, and of cross-platform code. I don't have to run your OS, and you don't have to run mine, and we can use the same applications anyway!"
XFree86 is conservative & lazy with regard to new features; as long as it implements the X protocol, who cares?
Directfb/fresco? (Score:5, Interesting)
Fresco is dead, but Directfb already has full gnome support, X emulation, mplayer support, alpha blending, and hardware accelleration and because it uses the same technology as the penguin logo on bootup, its fast!. This is a REAL alternative to X, and I hope you give it more support.
Directfb homepage [directfb.org]
Re:Directfb/fresco? (Score:2, Insightful)
As for now, I'll stick with xp and fluxbox. And OSX when I save the money for a mac heh. However, I'll continue to support direct
Re:Directfb/fresco? (Score:2, Interesting)
Now, if you have a card that's supported natively it's going to be fast, maybe as fast as the text console. I've been using the rivafb driver for a while and it was fast, but it conflicts with the binary nvidia drivers.
Re:Directfb/fresco? (Score:2)
Ehm.... fresco gets a lot of attention for a project that goes on for many years and did not deliver any stable code... actually much more attention than many projects that are useful today. And the real work on fresco has not even begun, after all you need applications...
Re:Directfb/fresco? (Score:2)
Why do we need another graphical alternative??
Re:Directfb/fresco? (Score:2)
Re:Directfb/fresco? (Score:2)
Re:Directfb/fresco? (Score:2)
No, that's not true. (Score:2)
The whole point of it is acceleration. Video cards that haven't released a single spec as to HOW to excelerate them can't really expect an accelerated driver, can they?
However, it works with any system that has a framebuffer, though it's slow as molasses. If you have openGL on your card, you can use it regardless of the type, so that should be pretty portable
Re:Directfb/fresco? (Score:2)
I think "X emulation" is a bit of a misnomer. X is just a specification for communications between an application and the graphics server. If an X11 application can connect to Directfb via X11 and display it's UI, then Directfb is X, just as much as Xfree86, Sun X11, Exceed (and XWin32, and the multitude of other X servers available for MS Windows), etc.
Re:Directfb/fresco? (Score:2)
No network transparency (Score:5, Funny)
Last time I looked at it, TWIN needed an X server or a pure Linux console - as in literally sitting in front of a machine running Linux on the keyboard. Telnetting or SSHing in wouldn't work.
Obviously, TWIN is so much faster than X because X can work over a network, and TWIN can't. How many people use network transparency anyway? Down with X!
Hint: this was a joke
Another angle.. (Score:3, Insightful)
This work will have the important consequence that visually impaired people will be able to do more than they currently can, the collection will make it much simpler to select the applications available. Great work which will make the world a better place.
Who Needs XFree86? (Score:2)
Re:Who Needs XFree86? (Score:2, Funny)
Text mode X server (Score:2)
Does this mean it is actually an X server? Will it display any X application (ie netscape etc) in text mode? When he says the same 'style' does he mean it is compatible with the X11 protocol, or just similar?
Sound Like: (Score:3, Funny)
Long Live the Command Line!
Its like a DesqView for Linux. (Score:2)
Re:Its like a DesqView for Linux. (Score:3, Interesting)
I Remember it. I used DesqView386(Which came with QEMM 8.x I think) on my (m)BBS in 93 or so, so I could be able to run two or more nodes on a single computer.
One of the most interesting things in Desqview, was that you could actually run MS Windows 3.1 (in realmode) inside it, in
Re:Its like a DesqView for Linux. (Score:2)
You need to run Oblivion/2 and OS/2 to be elite.
WWIV. Thats almost as bad as running renegade, sheesh.
plenty of toolkits like that already (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:plenty of toolkits like that already (Score:3, Informative)
Favorite console app (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Favorite console app (Score:2, Informative)
Text usage (Score:2)
Rus
can be more productive (Score:2, Insightful)
My Pick (Score:5, Informative)
vi - IMO _the_ example of bad interface design, but it's fast once you know how to use it (actually, I use elvis, but I guess any vi-clone would do)
mutt - it's just fantastic. A little harder to use than pine, but a lot easier when you have many mailboxen (I have some maildirs and a couple of IMAP accounts)
w3m - ideal if you are on a slow machine. When run under X11 or on the framebuffer, it renders images, too
centericq - all major protocols, and file transfers. This is a program that would benefit from a point-and-click interface, though.
mp3blaster - Housemates flee in terror as the computer suddenly starts playing music while no operator is around
dcd - Yes, I have audio CDs, too
cdrecord - burning those ISOs so I can propagate Free software
abcde - Rip your audio cd, look up the track names (CDDB), and encode to your favorite format - with one command!
And, of course, the usual Unix commands, C compiler, yada, yada.
Cheers!
---
Qui in ventem urinat, se lavare constat.
Re: My Pick (Score:3, Funny)
> I move around a lot, and use SSH to log into my machine at home to continue working where I left off. The apps I use:
'Work'?
Alternatively... (Score:5, Interesting)
% exec screen -E '^Z^Z' -D -R
This brings up my applications exactly how I left them last time. Then C-z c starts a new screen, C-z 0 through C-z 9 switches between screens, C-z C-z sends a literal ^Z, and C-z d disconnects. I normally have pine running in terminal zero, XEmacs in terminal one, then top(1) and maybe a shell in two more terminals. This is much handier than having to start applications every time you log in, and essential over a noisy modem line where the ssh connection might suddenly cut out. If it does, just reconnect, run the above command and everything is just as you left it.
Speaking of Emacs, you can do most things inside that including making shell and terminal buffers, so in a way it provides a windowing system like Twin.
Ratpoison (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Alternatively... (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh, and I much prefer -x to -D -R; with -x, if you are using multiple machi
Excellent (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Excellent (Score:3, Informative)
In 1993, I was using X11.
Web hit counter (Score:2)
I hope that it automatically goes to a 5th digit...
Somewhat XFree86... (Score:2)
I just stumbled across Kdrive [jussieu.fr] (not related to KDE) which is a _TINY_ X server written by well know X hacker Keith Packard.
Here's a listing of top from the RULE [rule-project.org] (another cool minimal Linux project) web site running Kdrive and Moz. Kind of a funny contrast really.
792 mfratoni 15 0 22756 22M 12384 S 15.3 59.8 1:19 mozilla-bin
720 root 15 0 7192 3600 1148 S 10.0 9.5
YAXA? (Score:2, Interesting)
Seriously, people have been announcing plans to replace X with something lighter weight for roughly 20 years now. Every time one of the projects gets far enough along to slap together a web site and a half-assed demo, you guys fall all over yourselves to promote it.
This may finally be the project that gets it right, and 10 years from now it will deliver something that is generally useful. Until then, it probably doesn't need to be on the front page of
ARACHNE Fully Graphical Browser (& Internet Su (Score:2)
In addition to Web browsing and email, it can also be used as a fron
Ah, memories of Desqview (Score:3, Interesting)
Ah, the distant memories....Desqview on a DOS machine with a few megs of "Expanded Memeory" : Brief in one window, a Borland compiler in another, Lotus Magellan in a third window, and maybe a debugger somewhere.
Good stuff, all of 'em.
Apple ][ windowing (Score:2)
Re:Just like windows (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe it sounds like it, but it certainly doesn't look like it. To me it looks a lot better than it sounds, but it is certainly not a replacement for X. It is more intended as something between X and the command line. More user interface than a command line and less bloated than X. It looks quite a lot like Turbo Vision, which is one of the nicer textmode based interfaces. Now they just need a lot of useful applications. I don't know how much attention they will get, neit
Re:Just like windows (Score:2)
Windows XP doesn't use DOS. Neither does 2K.
They have a command interpreter and a recovery console but they aren't the base the OS is laid on.
HAND.
So what... (Score:2)
And it's not like linux is based on a command interpreter either. It's "based" on
Re:Just like windows (Score:2)
Re:Useful for Remote Server Administration (Score:4, Interesting)
Sounds like you really want screen [gnu.org]. (Yes, it does split screen.
Re:Guess what, though? (Score:2)
Re:good news bad news.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, it is a troll.
X is one of the primary reasons I like Linux (or any unix). I don't want a remote desktop. I want remote programs. I want to be able to ssh into any remote computer (including those I can't physically get access to) and run editors with the display pointing back to me. Not a desktop, just the editors. On a typical day I'll have programs (mainly terminals and editors, but the occasional graphics program) open from over a dozen machines, all happily cohabiting on my single desktop... This lets me work remotely - I can cut'n'paste between
If it's ugly for you (I assume you mean aesthetically challenged, here), then get a new distro; you know, the ones with the anti-aliased rendered displays, and use a decent window manager. Frankly, if you're not prepared to put some effort in yourself, you deserve what you get.
It's not slow, at least not as far as I can tell, even my old matrox card (G450) can do several hundred 800x600 (typical game res.) blits/second, a semi-decent graphics card should do much better. The DRI really helped here, and decent drivers take advantage: if you're on a crappy graphics card, or one without decent support, change.
There has been work done (by the X team and others) to check how much faster it could be made by removing the (AF_UNIX not AF_INET) socket transport when you're running local. The result: The kernel unix socket code was as fast as anything the X team could do to transfer data around. X also uses shared memory (ie: zero-copy) to "transfer" images (pixmaps) from the client to the server when running locally.
(This is actually a quote from g4dget, but I agree wholeheartedly, so I'm including it)
Overall, the idea that network transparency is some sort of special feature that one pays a high price for is nonsense: all major desktop operating systems run in protected mode, and most GUI applications run in a different context from the window system. X11 simply has been designed that way from the ground up, while Windows and Macintosh have evolved there from "direct mode" graphics. Network transparency in X11 is not so much an issue of IPC or how it does graphics--it uses IPC like all desktop windowing systems--but in having well-defined network transparent support for features like window management and configuration information. It's lack of those features in Windows and OS X that means that Windows and OS X are not network transparent.
In practice, XFree86 is a damned efficient window system that, when it has comparable drivers for the graphics cards, beats OS X handily in terms of performance and memory usage, and usually even beats Windows.
Certainly stupid it's not. The concepts behind it haven't changed for over a decase, and have yet to be surpassed. It's true that the client/server model has changed over time, with far-more-capable framebuffers than X originally had to play with, but the X-server has evolved to cope with this - witness the various "extensions" that have become standardised...
As for "big FAT slow ass", TinyX (in the XFree86 source tree) takes a whopping 860k of space or so (depends on server-side pixmaps) when running on a zaurus. Whoosh. Almost a megabyte there. Whenever you see memory sizes in Linux, they invariably include the RAM in the graphics card (which is memory mapped so it can be used with shared memory) and the pixmaps that have been requested to be stored within server ram by clients. "FAT" it's not.
The take-home message is: Don't just complain. If it bothers you that much then get off your backside and do something about it - either do it yourself or cajole others into doing it for you, maybe even hire someone, or go use Windows, whichever makes you happier. I'd get more-informed before making any decisions though.
[I'll ignore the "big pile of hacks and rustry (sic) code." part of your post, after all, it is a troll.]
Simon.
Re:Party like it's 1989 (Score:2)
It's interesting and I like that you can use the multi console while in this windowing system..but I don't know, are people really that hard pressed for affordable CPU/Graphics horsepower? I could see this being used on server maybe, but not workstation..
Don't forget porn (Score:3, Funny)
Literally.