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Linuxcare Businesses

Linuxcare/Turbolinux Merger Called Off 74

Posted by Hemos
from the it's-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it dept.
A reader submitted: "Just got a call from a friend who used to work for Linuxcare until about an hour ago. The merger with Turbolinux has been called off and there are heavy casualties at both companies. According to my friend, Linuxcare is now down to about 30 people." That's just hearsay - but LinuxGram has a confirmation story as well.
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Linuxcare/Turbolinux Merger Called Off

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  • by Anonymous Coward
    i believe they make mathematica? i would consider that a good product.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    They're going to package up their turbotools as proprietary tools and try to sell it as software.

    Their tools work, barely, for a specific distro version (and they haven't been right since 6.0.x). I can't see them making a business off of them.

    Remember, these are the same people who thought they could make a business off of the TurboCluster "product" (ie, joke).
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 01, 2001 @12:21PM (#252859)
    Hearsay? On Slashdot?!?

    Say it ain't so!

  • by Lemmy Caution (8378) on Tuesday May 01, 2001 @12:13PM (#252860) Homepage
    Because too many people were impervious to research, were too willing to believe the glib "oh, you can make money on suppport!" mantra that legions of non-MBA holding suit-hating techies (few of them, honestly, developers) kept on churning out.

    No one is listening to the needs of their would-be customers. People at best are berated for not settling for the Linux solution that apes their existing solution. The industry climate is so contemptuous of the suits that could make it work, that the suits of ability and ambition go elsewhere. The best model hasn't been explored: PSO's working with free tools that bid on contracts. That sort of organization requires a strong sales force, not the "build it and they will come" naive faith that many linux service companies seem to have adopted. Also, add the failure to working with existing IT service companies.

    No one sat down and did real market research before this all began. My suspicion is that a bunch of Linux fan-boys, bouyed by a ridiculous capital market, said "let's start a company!" And the rest is farce.

  • by deeny (10239) on Tuesday May 01, 2001 @01:02PM (#252861) Homepage
    I know people have been saying "well, this proves that the support model for Linux is broken," but that's not really the case. The reality is that this is a hard time for most businesses, especially fledgling ones. I think Linuxcare will be just fine -- and the support model will prove profitable ultimately. That it's not raking in megabucks now is a reflection on the current state of the economy more than anything else.

    Linuxcare was designed to be distribution-agnostic and I'm glad this will mean they'll be able to untie themselves from a single distro -- and back toward that independence. Overall, I think that's better for Linuxcare.

    Oh, and kudos to Art Tyde for hanging in there, it can't have been fun.
  • No it doesn't. They are offering the WRONG support. Throwing hundred's of unskilled people in front of a phone and computer with a knowlege database is not support.(call Microsoft support, they are worse!) Support is highly skilled technicians and GURU's manning those phones. People that have configured apache for balanced loading and every possible scripting language at least 10 times. Here's the problem, paying these tech support people $30.00 an hour. that would mean charging the call-in customer $50.00 an hour and people will not pay that (even though the trained tech will solve the problem in 10 minutes instead of 4 hours and 6 phone calls. Business owners are purely stupid that way) so we have a problem, business owners and CEO's that are cheap bastards or complete morons, and wont pay for tech people, yet they demand god like tech support.

    so how do you make money at tech support? hire drones and hope that nobody notices or cares. (It works for 90% of the companies out there)

    Computer people are the number one abused resource on this planet. without us the CEO would not have his posh leather chair and teak desk, the company would not exist, yet we are paid the least in contrast to our responsibilities and skills. (Why am I paid the same as the Human resource manager? I have a helluva-lot(tm) more responsibility.)

    Tech-support it will either make you poor, or anti-social.
  • by Lumpy (12016) on Tuesday May 01, 2001 @12:29PM (#252863) Homepage
    Everyone here is blaming linux (you cant make money off of a free OS) or the merger plans (I want blue carpet, No I want RED) or a thousand other reasons, noone is looking at the obvious, a poor business plan. Support is a shakey business to begin with, and choosing to sell support for a product that 90% of the users are more qualified than your telephone support people is asking for financial ruin. Linux users know Linux. you have to. Granted there are some specifics that are supportable (how about a Squid proxy support desk, an apache support desk, a samba support desk. Actual linux support is really simple and anyone can deal with it, most of us need support for the add-on software that we use, and there is no worthwile support companies attacking. (Support php3+mysql+apache!)

    It is flawed from the beginning, so the demise is not a suprise, and is not the fault of linux.

  • by Zico (14255)

    Support is a shakey business to begin with

    Doesn't this run counter to the big idea that the grand poobahs in the community have been trying to sell companies on? "Don't worry that you can't make money selling Linux-related solutions, the money's in support." So if you can't make money on Linux, and support is a shaky business, can someone tell us why, in a capitalistic society, any business would pin their hopes on Linux?


    Cheers,

  • It is interesting that engineering feats are not necessarily good financially. Case and point is the underground (subways). The original London underground was a financial disaster. But subways are an integral part of many cities today.

    Hopefully, Linux's business analogy will be more like the oil industry. There are lots of mom+pop operators until a "Rockefella" transforms it into an industry. Can anyone say "RedHatefella"?
  • Easily the funniest thread I've seen in a long time. ESR should be eradicated!
  • One change to the lab test though. The model that comes with the NIC and Modem doesn't have the Lucent modem. It is a 3COM Mini-PCI winmodem, which is NOT Linux compatible. The NIC is though.

    I don't use the modem so I don't care...but others may.
  • To make it the most useful, get some of those business card CDs that fit in a wallet. That's what LinuxCare uses when they give them out. That way you are sure to always have it when you need it.
  • by NetJunkie (56134) <jason,nash&gmail,com> on Tuesday May 01, 2001 @11:44AM (#252869)
    Both of these are good companies. TurboLinux does some very nice things on the server side of Linux.

    LinuxCare does some great stuff on the support side. Their bootable rescue CD is EXCELLENT. Also, their hardware certification tests are nice. I based a lot of my decision to buy an IBM Thinkpad X20 on their certification and haven't regretted it one bit.

    At LinuxWorld LinuxCare was showing some very nice remote management and monitoring systems they have, along with some interesting R&D work they were doing. I hope somehow they both make it...
  • The 2 camps (TurboCare vs. LinuxLinux) were in a deadlock, and neither side was budging....

    How about Compu-global-turbo-linux-care?

    It's sad, really. I hate it when a company lets its staff go because they can outsource tech support. Er, wait a minute...
  • by Velox_SwiftFox (57902) on Tuesday May 01, 2001 @11:47AM (#252871)
    ...that the layoffs would have been as high or higher had the merger gone through?
  • How exactly is it that you know what the TurboLinux strategy is? You don't sound terribly informed. I work at TurboLinux, and I can't divulge what our system management strategy is, but it certainly has nothing to do with re-packaging software that we already make freely available. If you have an axe to grind, then grind away, but please only do so if you know what you're talking about.
  • So if you can't make money on Linux, and support is a shaky business, can someone tell us why, in a capitalistic society, any business would pin their hopes on Linux?

    The time for "because it's sexy" is well-past now, thank God.
  • Their CEO did a thing at the CLIQ. NT in vmware got jacked up and wouldn't display his MS Project presentation to the audience, requiring him to reboot his system to fix the problem. I'd be much more confident in a CEO who could adapt to that situation and give a stunning speech without the MS presentation. Or used Linux presentation software (Though his observation that StarOffice sucked for such things was pretty on-target.) I have my doubts as to how on-target his prepared speech was, too. And I think I saw Clippy before he got project launched...

    Glad I don't own stock in them...

  • Pretend to merge with them and then bail out at the eleventh hour.

    The two may not look as if they're competing right now, but with Turbolinux setting it's sights in new directions (unbeknownst to Linuxcare) you just gotta wonder.

  • Teg,

    You said "We're the premier source for support on Linux."

    As an active member of the South Florida Linux User Exchange, and several LUGs before that, allow to tell you : Bullshit!

    Linux and all Open Source products have their premier source of support in the community. That's why it works so well for the rest of us. No contract, no fee, just trust and the love of the game. Do not disregard that kind of support just because your brain has been washed up by your paycheck provider.

  • Isnt that how Verizon dispatched Northpoint?
  • We bundle business card size rescue CDs with some of the Red Hat Linux products in Europe - at least, we did so with Red Hat Linux 7 professional there, and I don't know that we've stopped.
  • Red Hat Linuxcare's biggest client? I doubt that - we have high-quality support up to 24/7 enterprise level and make money from it. Why would we waste money buying services when we have deeper knowledge of different aspects of Linux than Linuxcare, and good people to deal with it? We're the premier source for support on Linux.

  • Sorry, I meant for commercial and high-end support - for a normal user with a new user's needs, nothing beats participating in a LUG.

    Now, if you increase the difficulty level a bit, LUGs become less resourceful and the commnunity of users using the same software become more important - but if you're a corporation and need your answers quickly, then the support we offer is a very valuable tool. E.g if your web servers are down or are having performance problems and it needs fixing now, our Stronghold and kernel teams are second to none.

  • Maureen O'Gara lost all creditability with me when she wrote the article about her interview with the Suse guy.

    It was completely lies...

    Since then it has been removed from linuxgram but you can still see parts of it and other maureen o'gara articles on linuxtoday.com

    http://linuxtoday.com/search.php3?negate=&news_src -range=on&advquery=Maureen+O%27Gara&andorbox=OFF&a dvquery2= [linuxtoday.com]

    I have not read this slashdot article and I don't plan to. As far as I'm concerned Maureen O'Gara is lying scum and I have no reason to read anything she writes.

  • Yes... I'm sure he said that "Linux as a business is not working out". I've noticed now that Suse is now gone back to the strategies it had before they switched to doing mostly Linux stuff.

    Wait a minute... All Suse has ever done is Linux. And all Suse does is Linux.

    That alone would have told me that that article was crap.

    But for other people who were still confused Volker said that the author deliberately took what he said out of context.

    He felt that Maureen was lying, and I feel that Maureen is a liar. She never apologised/retracted/explained herself and she's lost my trust...

  • Yeah. It says on the Linuxgram web page that Maureen is aggresive. So aggresive she never get invited to any press conferences any more. I know that if I was Suse I wouldn't let her come to any press conferences.

    What do you mean that LinuxCare screwed a lot of people in the Linux Community? I don't remember reading anything about that. I was never impressed with their business plan but I always liked it when they used to host kernel traffic. Zack Brown still does it even though he doesn't work for them any more which is tremendously cool of him. And they have those boot CD's that people said were cool. But other than that I don't remember anyone getting screwed by them.

    TurboLinux does have some proprietary software... I have never used it. They seem like an alright company. I heard good reviews about some of their software.

    Also congratulations on having such a high user id. I notice that it is just a couple higher than the other Suse_guy who also replied to my original post. Both of them were created today aparently. Just to respond to my post. Forgive me for suspecting that you are not telling the full truth about why you two would feel strongly enough to create new logins just to respond to my post. I know that probably the one reason I would do something like that is if I worked for LinuxGram. If you don't work for LinuxGram then please forgive me for thinking something bad about you. Hanging around slashdot has made me into a conspiracy theorest I guess.

  • >>I admit I created user accounts on /. before but I lost them because I had to change jobs so many times in the last year.

    You get fired a lot and so you create two new logins (ingenuity7 and Suse_Rulez) just to troll me? I should feel honored I guess.

    >>Kernel Traffic was Zack Brown's project before he joined LinuxCare.

    I never said that it wasn't. I just said that I am gratefull to them for hosting it.

    >>I guess you don't know anyone who worked for LinuxCare. If you did, you would know how they screwed the community. They were always a pretend company.

    LinuxCare is not a "pretend company". So far they haven't been too successful but they were never fake. You haven't told me yet what LinuxCare did that you think "screwed the community". I hear that when they laid off some of their employees people were upset because they shut off their email. That is a hassle but I hardly call it "screwing the community".

    I don't normally respond to trolls like you. But aparently someone thought your first post was "Interesting" and when it was actually lies.


  • Doing that certification on the X20/X21 is what made me decide I want one, eventually, too. :)

    - Ceren
    FreeBSD's "Strange Attractor."
    cercen.ridthyselfofpinkmeat@linuxcare.com

  • That's a slightly different model/hardware configuration than the one(s) we tested. The one(s) I had to work on only came with the Lucent. I'd prefer one with a NIC, myself! I worked on what hardware we are sent by IBM. Thanks much for the feedback, though!
  • Not to critique the dot too harshly, but how many are with me in stating that the icon for this story [slashdot.org] just doesn't cut it?

    It's too wide -- 100 pixels -- and hogs up too much of the top row. And it's ugly. Just look at it [slashdot.org]. I dare anyone to find an uglier icon on all of slashdot.

    Perhaps my expectations were set too high when the crew unveiled the icon for GIMP [slashdot.org] stories. Now that's an icon!

  • As a former employee of one of these companies, I would just like to concur that this does not reflect on the viability of Linux even as a profitable business. There are many companies based on Linux that are failing, but from my experience, it has more to do with poor management and the money/business focus trumping any technology push within these companies. Linux companies are best served not by large investments (which push the business agenda) but by sound technology, small, nurtured growth, and a focus on the end goal of maturation instead of immediate revenue generation.

    Profit is one thing (necessary), but growth for the sake of generating revenues, and making revenues king generally results in turning business stragedies into "Lets charge a premium for this free community-thing" or "Lets do some of the infrastructure in a proprietary tie-in way." You end up killing the true technology that may win in the end and let the business mind-set gravitate back to the standard proprietary ways of doing business. This I feel is why so many Linux co's, who have had "new management" take over, tend to sound hipocritical today and sound oh so old fashioned and counter-revolutionary.

    The end result: Don't trust Linux co's to be the flag bearer or to succeed in maturing Linux. It will take further maturation by the OS community, non-greedy/sound business plans, and people focused on the end goal. Its not anti-business! Its just that sound business-building/technology-building tactics are not employed!
  • When it becomes purely a financial matter, Thomas said, "you know it's over."

    Give this man the BS artist of the year award!

    I'll have to remember this the next time someone talks about a "business plan" or "going to the board of directors."

    Steve Ballmer, you have nothing to worry about.
  • How about Compu-global-turbo-linux-care?

    Then Bill Gates would have to come and "buy them out".

    Anyway, now we understand why they won't merge. Anything computer-related with "turbo" in it can't last, and LinuxLinux is just plain stupid. :)

  • Despite how much Linux has progressed in the last 5 years, this is the kind of thing that reminds me that there is no way any money can be made from the free O/S.

    Did you know that Oldsmobile is going out of business?

    Despite how much automotive technology has progressed in the last 50 years, this is the kind of thing that reminds me that there is no way any money can be made from the manufacturing of automobiles.

    I know we're talking about totally different industries here. What I'm not sure of is whether you understand that because 'x' businesses go belly up it does not necessarily follow that the product is not viable. Many times multiple failures precede eventual successes. Chrysler nearly went under several years ago, but in the hands of a more visionary manager was able to turn around to the point that they were able to become a leader in the industry (yes, I'm aware of the governmental bail-out, but the former management team likely could not have turned things around even if they'd had such a cash infusion).

    These business failures, while they may be devastating to the principals, investors and employees, are varying attempts to see what will work in the marketplace. Those who hang in there and keep adjusting to compensate and re-tooling to incorporate what they learn along the way will eventually succeed where others have failed.

  • it will be IBM and Dell and perhaps RedHat and maybe VA Linux left standing.....HP, Compaq will remain players as well. I don't see how the rest will survive. However, there is a new bunch of companies that are doing OSS middleware (above Linux)...we still have to see how that plays out. e.g., Covalent with Apache, NuSphere with MySQL, Great Bridge with PostgreSQL, Lutris with Enhydra and OpenVertical (competes with Ariba).

  • TurboLinux is the Asian Linux more than it is anything else.

    /Brian
  • Right here http://open-projects.linuxcare.com/BBC/download.ep l
  • by SquadBoy (167263) on Tuesday May 01, 2001 @11:36AM (#252895) Homepage Journal
    that the bootable business card cd does not go away. That little thing kicks ass and is usefull in *many* ways. I'll have to go read what they have to say about mirrors just in case the do go away. Turned out that not getting hired by Linuxcare was a good thing.
  • The same reason any bussiness goes under... It's not easy to get a company going... Just because you've got smart people and venture capital doesn't mean you can make it... Companiess go bust all the time. We (geeks and the likes) only pay attention to the tech ones.

    MG

  • I want in on that!
  • I would like to interject with my own information...
    TurboLinux is _huge_ in asian countries, and LinuxCare is actually a great company who does a lot for the community and for the companies who work with the community/market. Just my two bits...
  • It's strange how few people use HTML that way.

    Not really I use HTML for almost all my "office" needs. Its reliable and incredibly portable and easier to use IMO than word. Rather than key strokes or mouse clicks you have all you need in tags. Easily visible, except for the /. crew. :)

  • The company that I work for use to hire consultants to support our enterprise, but then the company relized they could save about $30k per year, per person, if they hired people to run the enterprise instead of using consultants. I have heard the the same thing is going on in other companies around were I live. This could be one reason why it seems like many support/cunsultant companies are going away.
  • I have friends at Linuxcare and it's gotta be a rough time over there. I never met a group of people I'd rather work with. They really know their stuff are wonderful people and are great representatives of the Linux community. It's a real tragedy. Best of luck to Linuxcare in the future and to those employees who are no longer with the company.
  • The simple thing is that the ECONOMY is not as good as it used to be. That means, deals made three-four months ago don't make sense now. Can you get that?

    U.S. 1Q GDP surges [cnn.com]

    The economy is stronger than it was 3-4 months ago. Just because the Linux world has crashed, or the .COM world has gone belly up does not mean that "the economy" has faltered. In any case the majority of negativity regarding "the economy" is based on the absurd supposition that it should grow and grow and grow forever. We are never satisfied with "going steady".

  • Quote from the linuxgram page: "Turbolinux CEO Paul Thomas said the reasons that existed for the merger six months ago no longer exist day because of the flagging economy."

    Oh give me a break. Everytime a .COM or hype market (Linux [which is a fine OS but the market hype was irrational], MP3s, etc.) implodes after reality sets in (i.e. "show me the money"), the talking heads come out talking about the flagging economy, to the point that the overwhelming negativity of dreamers affects actual consumer spending and actually disrupts the real economy. Those ridiculous extrapolated charts just aren't coming true in the real world where business models have to actually at least break event.

    Then again, perhaps that's what he means: Maybe he means "The rules that govern the economy have failed to change in a manner that would allow us to make money by spending more than we take in. This fundamental of our business plan has not proven true so we must cede defeat.

  • RedHatefella...hmm, sounds like a good nick

    Jaysyn

  • by bitva (206067)
    I was looking forward to buying products from LinuxLinux

    They wouldn't even have had to have a product, just sell the name. Now that's 1337!

  • by _ph1ux_ (216706) on Tuesday May 01, 2001 @04:18PM (#252906)
    I'll hafta disagree with you on this one. Art, Dave and others were consultants for me back in tha' day.... right when they were bout to start linuxcare.

    we had them all woking for us to implement some custom b2b edi stuff that we wanted done - on linux. its still in production, 4 years strong.

    the point is that back then - they were working on an open source app (secuREMOTE - linux based vpn software). but they were called on heavily to do a lot of linux support stuff.

    Working with free tools on contracts they were supposed to bid on - was exactly what the original model was - and give corporate support for linux as to bolster acceptance of the OS as a viable tool for businesses to adopt on the front lines. however - there were obviously some changes that took affect when they got all that money - and I think some of it had gone to the companies head, which caused them to loose focus on the core of the idea.

    You CAN make money on support - the problem isnt that it is not a vaild market to go after, it is that it wasnt a fully developed market.

    If linuxcare were to foster and groom that market, they could have shoulda woulda done things a bit more differently - like attempting to make the market more full earlier, by building strong relationships with any and every dell, compaq, penguin, va, etc they could find.

    and I also want to applaud them for being, as you say, a bunch of linux fan-boy saying "lets start a company!" - as if you look at the "linux" arena as a whole today - linuxcare brought some much needed attention to linux - by getting investors to really look at it - businesses are more comfortable with the term "linux" than they were, and you have something to talk about :)

    so it isnt totally over for them - and although they didnt do a mountain of stuff in the market - they did a hell of a lot more than a lot of other companies have done for linux.

  • No one sat down and did real market research before this all began. My suspicion is that a bunch of Linux fan-boys, bouyed by a ridiculous capital market, said "let's start a company!" And the rest is farce.

    I'd say that's an excellent description of Eazel and Ximian. LinuxCare, on the other hand, had some really smart money behind it and a business plan that's reasonable (or at least not outright laughable). It had lousy leadership though, and bad timing.

    Bottom line for a lot of these companies -- if Linux had managed the 10% market share and non-geek user base its boosters were predicting, LinuxCare could have done well providing support for Compaq or Dell or something. No market, no money.

    Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.

  • I'd tell you to pose this question to ESR, but he seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth...

    No, he's moved on to running his mouth on the LKML, and getting a smackdown from Alan Cox [indiana.edu].

    Actually, the whole thread is pretty funny if you have the time to read it. I'd forgotten how much of a blowhard the guy is -- you'd think he'd have sufficient shame to tone down his pomposity and boasting in a forum like that, but, no.

    Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.

  • by Darth RadaR (221648) on Tuesday May 01, 2001 @12:59PM (#252909) Journal
    My biggest beef with mergers is that you end up with companies that do everything and do that everything very badly.
  • by JohnTheFisherman (225485) on Tuesday May 01, 2001 @11:40AM (#252910)
    The 2 camps (TurboCare vs. LinuxLinux) were in a deadlock, and neither side was budging....
  • From the article:
    Tyde could not explain why there wasn't more synergy, not less, between Linuxcare, the service company, and Turbolinux, the systems management house, than there was between Linuxcare and Turbolinux, the non-neutral distribution. He said the pair needed "the right mix of products and services and that marketing issues needed to be worked out." He seemed relatively unaware of Turbo's plans to change direction as though that hadn't factored in the decision.
    It's sad that business people can't be as forward-looking as those of us in technology. I believe that everyone here can see the truth of the above excerpt from the mentioned article. How management types can miss the sorts of opportunities that will save their companies, merely because they want to remain in control, is unbelievable to me - (ok, maybe not unbelievable, but just pathetic).


    --CTH

    --
  • I worked for their original PR company, which they unceremoniously dumped and did not make good on their payment agreement with. Suck that karma, good riddance.
  • Making Linux... History. D'ohhh!

    Hey, merge with Eazel - I hear they're goin' cheap!

  • But with an icon like that for their own section, who can blame anyone from not having faith in them?



    Are you on the Sfglj [sfgoth.com] (SF-Goth EMail Junkies List) ?
  • So how was that a "troll"? Someone has an axe to grind and it's not me.
  • I imagine you get some reaction to your sig, and I expect you intended it that way.

    Yes and yes. But I'm not anti-linux. I'm running Mandrake on a system at home and have run Redhat, FreeBSD (yeah, I know it's not Linux), Slackware, and TurboLinux. Of those, TurboLinux was the least satisfactory.

    I think that Linux suffers because there is no unified vision for the UI, no controlling authority for the code quality, and no entrance exams for those who wish to contribute. You get some brilliant code and you get some pretty crappy code. It's still damned impressive given those obstacles and I hope to see it mature further as I have no desire to rent software from Microsoft.

  • by fmaxwell (249001) on Tuesday May 01, 2001 @11:51AM (#252917) Homepage Journal
    It's a shame that people are out of work and I wish them the best, but this is not exactly like talks between Redhat and IBM breaking down. It was two bit-players in the Linux market that could not agree on the terms of a merger. I intend no criticism of their services or products by this, but it's just not news...that matters... for most nerds.
  • Not that this would be even remotely on topic, but I worked for a company that was on the ropes and sure enough a bigger company offered to help us. Woohoo!

    So what happens? The company I work for goes spending all this money, in anticipation of the merger. Well the bigger (smarter) company sees this and just sits there. Merger talks stall, then fail. Now we're *completely* overextended and we die. One day, there's sign on the door and my key doesn't work. Doh!

    The bigger smarter (and now laughing it's ass off) company then contacts our customers and offers it's services, which the customers gladly accept.

    It was a gruesome, fascinating, perfect kill.

    Lucky for me I was leavin' anyway, but what a lesson.

  • Do you always have to sense some kind of undertone, dishonest and hidden meaning in what some menagement people say? I guess that's the prevailing geeky kinda suspicion on Slashdot and elswhere. It's the bias of its own kind so you can pride yourself you're-right-they-are-wrong bunch of garbage. The simple thing is that the ECONOMY is not as good as it used to be. That means, deals made three-four months ago don't make sense now. Can you get that?
  • "generally smelled bad" - you put that kinda description on anything you like just to vent your displeasure but it doesn't prove anything. You don't list a single technical problem with Torbotools. What is exacly you're complaining about? "unfriendly interface"? -- again subjective kinda crop. On the contrary, turbotools is a shortcut in management and good in concept, you can run it in X or textmode and it doesn't rearrange your /etc/hosts like SuSE 7.1 does.
  • what a communist troll you are.

    Ahh, I'm republican and therefore the farthest thing from a communist. I believe in capitalism.. just some things don't have the right and/or ability to be capital investments. A communist is someone who believes everyone should be equal and no one should be greater than anyone else. Sadly, you are mistaken

    Both companies, particularly Linuxcare, expected to make their money as SERVICE companies.

    Services is nice, but no major corporation is going to accept the statement from a "service" provider as saying "sure, we know there's a problem in Apache, but we can't do anything until the Apache developers provide a patch." Although I use Apache as an example, this is only an example and nothing against apache itself... it could be anything on a Linux system.

    People that can start companies and make money from Linux inevitably help Linux penetrate the business environment and establish it as a software standard.

    I never saw Linux as a commercial product, maybe that's me. I think it's best for people who want a nice desktop, or who want a cheap webserver for displaying their website, or educational use (learning UNIX-type systems). I also think Linux is pretty good for provoking the development of commercial UNIX systems as it becomes "just as good as" these systems, such as Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, etc. These are commercial systems where the support is real and the stability is real, and supported by highly trained technical staff, not some half-baked college kid. Linux is "pushing" the UNIX community and should be ONLY pushing. If it tries to takeover, it will fall short based on 1 thing only, lack of profits (it IS free, as you said). Linux also doesn't provide any new technologies, it just implements current technologies into it's kernel. Linux hasn't developed any "standard" as far as I know.

    And finally, to imply Torvalds and the legion of developers as less than "good" developers because they produced Linux and its applications for free is a pretty slanderous as well.

    I implied no such thing. Linus works for who? He does what? He does it... for omg MONEY?! I never said Linus or anyone else wasn't intelligent and a good coder... I just said that people need to make a living and will do so through commercial software vendors who can afford to pay them because they make PROFIT from their product.

    ...but you appear to be denser than average...

    Insulting me is a direct reflection on your own intelligence. You might have well just said "your mom" because it requires less keystrokes.

    But hey, everyone can't be a millionaire, and you're just another peon who can't grasp the concept of shareware, freeware, or consulting services.

    Okay so if everyone can't be a millionaire, why are all these Linux gurus trying to become millionaires by selling Linux "services" (as you put it)? Because they are trying to make money and live and feed themselves and buy their new Athlon processor(s). No, not everyone can be a millionaire. Again, Linux is FREE and you do NOT make a profit from FREE.

    Hey, what are you doing on Slashdot anyway?

    Because sometimes a voice of common sense needs to be heard.

    Get back to work and earn your wage, slave!

    Assuming what I do or who I do it for is just wrong. I could assume a lot too. For instance, I could say that your daddy was a "slave" to someone and got money so he could buy you your computer (which probably had windows95 on it) and you played on the Internet and IRC for a while until someone told you it was cool to run Linux, so you did. I can also assume that you are still not out of high school or college and do not have the simple concept of making money to live. Daddy still takes care of you, doesn't he? He still buys you your own Athlon processors, right?



    -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
    w00t w00t raise da r00f!
  • by Chakat (320875)
    Most businesses go under. Period. It doesn't matter if you're a tech company or a pet store, you've got to have enough cash reserves to lose money for six months before you can even think about breaking even; even still, most companies lose money until the day they die. Running a business is a huge risk, one which has ruined people in the past, and will ruin people in the future. Just because it ends in .com doesn't change the laws of economics.
  • Is there a downloadable ISO of the 'bootable rescue CD'? I'd love to get ahold of a copy.
  • by Tech187 (416303) on Tuesday May 01, 2001 @11:54AM (#252924)
    IBM is still strong on Linux, and other companies as well. Wolfram Research has used Linux as their primary development platform for years.

    It hasn't been look good for most Linux-only companies, but Linux is still a good deal for companies where it isn't their primary focus.
  • by Tech187 (416303) on Tuesday May 01, 2001 @12:07PM (#252925)
    A few years ago now at a Unix Users of Minnesota meeting (St. Paul campus once a month) the presenter used HTML and Netscape for his presentation. For most uses that 'visual aids' are put to, a local copy of Apache (or even just some static pages in a directory for some uses) would be a good choice. It's strange how few people use HTML that way.

  • what a communist troll you are.

    Both companies, particularly Linuxcare, expected to make their money as SERVICE companies. Free O/S, but they wanted to make money as CONSULTANTS for Linux. There's nothing wrong with their business model as long as there are businesses moving to linux that will pay for support.

    Who is "everyone"? Even RMS expected people to make money on GPLed software via "services". What a slanderous remark to make of the Linux community. The complaint was being forced to accept substandard O/S software, not be able to correct its flaws, and then be COMPELLED to pay for the defective crap. (The hardware is useless without the O/S. Obvious, but you appear to be denser than average... ) People that can start companies and make money from Linux inevitably help Linux penetrate the business environment and establish it as a software standard. People like you pissing on their efforts is a disservice towards the dissemination of Linux.

    And finally, to imply Torvalds and the legion of developers as less than "good" developers because they produced Linux and its applications for free is a pretty slanderous as well.

    But hey, everyone can't be a millionaire, and you're just another peon who can't grasp the concept of shareware, freeware, or consulting services. Hey, what are you doing on Slashdot anyway? Get back to work and earn your wage, slave!
  • by the_2nd_coming (444906) on Tuesday May 01, 2001 @11:39AM (#252927) Homepage
    this is a bad day for the people that got cut, however, just for all thoughs that will say "look linux is not viable", this is just a company that supports linux instalation sites and does consulting. this not to mention the fact that Redhat, Linuxcares biggest client had rolled out the Redhat network, and will not require as much support survices. although it would be interesting to see if Linuxcare can addapt to this and get an outsource contract to administer the RHN.
  • by SuSE_Rulez (448503) on Tuesday May 01, 2001 @05:20PM (#252928)
    The interview with Volker Wiegand is still up on LinuxGram. http://www.linuxgram.com/newsitem.phtml?sid=108&ai d=11718 The thing I dont understand is why people got so upset and defensive about the Suse article. Volker is a good guy and he was just being honest. People should not get upset with him for telling the truth or for telling his mind. Volker is a really good person, why should people get mad at him for not being a marketing sleezebag? Its easy to say that people are lying when they are telling you what you dont want to hear or when you dont like what you see in the mirror. I dont care what ppl say, Suse is still the best.
  • No I don't work for LinuxGram. I have nothing to do with LinuxCare or redhat or SuSE or Turbo or any Linux-anything company for that matter anymore because obviously they are all tanking. I definitely do not work in the spraypainting division of IBM. I admit I created user accounts on /. before but I lost them because I had to change jobs so many times in the last year. About three jobs ago I had access to CSN and it was cool. I honestly don't see what the point of LinuxGram is if it's only focused on companies that are going out of business. Might as well spin it off and sell it to FC.com.

    Kernel Traffic was Zack Brown's project before he joined LinuxCare.

    Those business card CDs were cool.

    I guess you don't know anyone who worked for LinuxCare. If you did, you would know how they screwed the community. They were always a pretend company. I don't care what they do anymore because no one works there. Who cares?
  • On the contrary, I have always been amazed at how much good info you can get from Client Server News (Linuxgram, whatever).

    Sometimes what they report sounds unbelieveable but more often than not it turns out to be right on the money. They are obviously plugged in everywhere.

    My question is, why beat a dead horse? Linuxcare was a bad company and screwed a lot of people in the Linux community. Who cares? Turbolinux makes proprietary software and has always sucked and claims they are big in Asia. Who cares? We all know this. Tell us something we don't know, please!

This place just isn't big enough for all of us. We've got to find a way off this planet.

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