jhughes wrote to us with the
report that Debian will be including KDE2 within Woody, and according to the article, backtracking it into Potato. Of course, you've been able to get the packages by editing your sources.list
[?] , but apparently this will mean including it in the "official" list.
Re:Yea, but... (Score:1)
Re:Ah but... (Score:1)
Obviously some lame ass moderator has NO sense of humor.
Re:Debian should be careful... (Score:1)
The part that I found funny or maybe even over-the-top was where RMS graciously decided to set the example and "forgive" them on behalf of the FSF. Apparently there is no FSF code to forgive
So, let me get this straight... (Score:2)
Then you run Emacs?
Isn't that similar to refusing to eat pork because it's cruel to pigs... and eating veal instead?
my gosh (Score:1)
Re:Yea, but... (off topic) (Score:1)
Bah.
You haven't checked recently. (Score:3)
Qt 2.0/2.1 was free, but still wasn't compatible with the GPL. KDE remained available outside of Debian (which so far as anyone could tell was acceptable if you considered Qt a system library (we didn't, but the argument could be made...))
Qt 2.2 is available under the GPL. Problem resolved in a way nobody really expected was even possible. Anyone for a ski trip in hell? heh
Re:Licence? (Score:2)
Sweet! (Score:1)
Cool... (Score:2)
err, make that a "red" herring (Score:2)
:)
Lawyer: no, that's a read herring (Score:3)
The illegal distribution argument is now, always was, and always will be a red herring. Although it has been repeated over and over again, it is not even arugable as a legal issue, and any half-way capable judge would impose sanctions on the party raising the claim to pay the other party's fees and costs in defending it.
KDE *was not* GPL software, despite the claims of the authors. By distributing and publishing it they altered the terms of the putative license. That is, their actions override the boilerplate.
RMS has hinted in this direction with his "I supose there's an imp[licit permission," but that's far to soft. Distributing binaries never violated the KDE licesne.
However, this does not get aropund the use of *third party* GPL'd code--as KDE was not GPL, it could not use GPL code in a manner that violates the GPL, which is apparently done in two pieces (kghostview and one other, iirc).
The whole bit on "legal concerns" for the rest of KDE, though, was a matter of willful ignorance of the law on an issue that isn't even debatable.
hawk, esq.
Woooooooooo-Hooooooo!!! (Score:1)
It's about @#$%^! time!!!
What this means for GNOME (Score:1)
What goes for one, goes for everything else.
Re:of course (Score:1)
It's the one thing that you'll never get out of an FSF zealot: just what the hell is wrong with the QPL?
You bring up an interesting point: apparently, it's OK for Nautilus to use Mozilla as a rendering engine, since it (Nautilus) calls Mozilla through Bonobo, which is LGPL. Ugh. Truthfully, the KDE team should have seen this...except that zealots always argue against this strategy (except when it works to their advantage.) I'm not sure about using the LGPL to circumvent licensing problems--to my way of thinking, this is *more* of a problem than KDE not being fully GPL ever was.
BTW Thanks to whoever pointed out how wrong I originally was about the Mozilla/Nautilus debate--sorry, I was sleepy when I came up with the idea, and ran with it.
Re:of course (Score:1)
/*
The main sticking point is/was here:
6. c. If the items are not available to the general public, and the initial developer of the Software requests a copy of the items,
then you must supply one.
*/
OK, so if for some reason the source isn't available to the general public, and if for some reason the original author wants a copy, you have to supply it.
I can only think of a couple of reasons why it *wouldn't* be available: One is if this was part of an in-house project, in which case you wouldn't have to give the code to the entire world. Another reason is if you chose to use the BSD license for your software (I think that's OK...isn't it?). Any other reason and you'd be in violation of the QPL (IIRC.)
So...the GPL requires the source to be open on a public project. The QPL requires the source to be open on a public project. There's no disagreement, as I see it...it seems to me that the QPL wishes to put further regulations on those who choose to use a license other than the GPL, and this should have never been used as an argument against the folks at KDE.
As far as the jurisdiction is concerned, I have to agree with what others have voiced here, which is that I feel that there should be some control over where licensing agreement disputes are handled...I don't want to be dragged to Khazakstan(sp) if I release some GPLed code and some company there chooses to steal my code. I'd like some say, especially since their country might permit such usage and claim the GPL has no power there.
The GPL and LGPL are broken. Let's fix them.
Re:What this means for GNOME (Score:1)
Re:What this means for GNOME (Score:1)
As in, "It hasn't happened yet, but may someday, but until then, it's still not dual-licensed and still only MPL." You'd know that if you bothered to think.
>As someone mention in another post, it's beeing
>*embedded* as a bonobo component.
This is one of those things that's been debated a lot: is CORBA a link, or is it not? Clearly, you need the MPLed Mozilla code to display the HTML in this case, but it's not linking in a traditional sense. This is one of those things that'll be covered (I hope) in a future revision of the GPL (but isn't yet.)
My apologies to Eazel (Score:3)
However, it brings up an intriguing possibility-the KDE license dispute could have been settled long ago! The Harmony project could have simply had someone write up a spec (which I believe was in the works at one time) and could have written an LGPL wrapper lib to cover up the licensing issue. No fuss, no muss.
Now, the former paragraph is clearly wrong--that wouldn't solve the problem. Or would it? Apparently, it does for Nautilus--the interface between Mozilla and Nautilus has been Bonoboized. What does that mean? Mozilla is called through Bonobo, which is LGPLed, which in turn uses CORBA to communicate--and, as it has been explained to me, this means that there is *no linking* of Mozilla to Nautilus.
Is this true? Is this all that is required? We just use the LGPL library to do as we see fit? Wow...you know, this doesn't seem right, somehow. It wasn't OK for the QPL to give permission to link not-for-charge GPL programs to GPLed programs, but it's OK to write an LGPL wrapper for anything--and link to GPLed software with not legal problems.
Yet another reason I would never consider the GPL/LGPL...
I don't normally get involved in these but... (Score:2)
The only point I wish to take issue with in the above post is the "speed" of Gnome development. When you consider that the web browser was someone elses app (though now is a port of KDE's khtml lib), the window manager was someone elses app, the file manager was mostly someone elses app etc etc etc. The office suite will be some elses app, I think I'm right in saying that even the spreadsheet was around before Gnome and is therefore someone elses app and this is the reason for Gnomes stability issues and also why it feels less consistant. The point being, KDE got to where it is on it's own, raw code whereas Gnome has integrated the major components into itself. KDE DID have qt and Gnome had a fair bit of work to do on gtk to get it usable but in my view, the speed of Gnome development has been really slow by comparison to KDE.
It might have been faster for Gnome to start from scratch rather than shoe horn all these different apps together. On the other hand Gnomes' panel was always better than KDE's though the new KDE kicker looks nice.
Regards
Re:excellent (Score:1)
This is of course based on a serious mis-understanding. If you look at emacs, this monstrosity could never pass for being an editor. It's huge and bloated, it's got built-in email and web browser support and you besically never have to leave it in a days work. Ergo, emacs is a desktop environment. Why the GNU dudes needed to write *another* desktop environment when they've had emacs for decades is beyond me.
PS The editor component in emacs is great, it's very similar to jed, but ties in better with the rest of the desktop environment and uses the system-wide lisp scripting engine.
ftp.debian.org is down or just swamped? (Score:1)
figured I would be asking for trouble.
Re:ftp.debian.org is down or just swamped? (Score:1)
Re:This is great! (Score:5)
Only if by "contemporary" you mean "more like Windows". I can't really think of much in the way of older user interfaces that GNOME resembles.
KDE takes a less timid approach to making use of others interface design philosiphies than GNOME does.
KDE is certainly more eager to imitate Windows. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's a dead end strategy when it comes to winning hearts and minds. "Chase the dream, not the competition." It also presumes you like the Windows-style interface. If I did, I wouldn't be using Linux. Windows does come "free" with new computers. (Okay, but you have to pay for it either way.) ;)
KDE has more mature app integration than GNOME
I can't really argue that point. But GNOME is newer, and it is plainly advancing faster than KDE, which is to be expected for a system attempting to blaze new territory rather than to simply achieve parity with a competitor. Still, I'll be glad when I can cut and paste more often.
The KDE UI is centered around implementing what works best for the user, where GNOME appears to do what is best for the developer.
Huh? I think you can make a case that GNOME is friendlier to C programmers than KDE's C++ API -- which is part of why I like it, being a C programmer -- but I can't really say that either system is better for developers than end users. Except for the actual task of GUI design, character-based commandline systems are a lot more developer-friendly than GUIs in general.
What's really disturbing to me about these pointless advocacy debates is the hidden presumption that everybody must be forced into one standard interface despite their personal preferences. That's a BS viewpoint fostered by commercial software. What we need are solid interoperability standards so you can use KWrite, I can use AbiWord, and the next guy can use Word, and we can all use each other's data without respect to each other's software. Killing the competition is only good if you're selling software; if you're giving it away, the competition ought to be more friendly and cooperative.
--
Re:of course (Score:2)
Re:In Potato or Woody (Score:1)
You can have Sawfish/Gnome/X or KDE/WindowMaker/X.
Yep, the only bit we can't change right now is X.
of course (Score:2)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't want a lot, I just want it all
Flame away, I have a hose!
Re:of course (Score:2)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't want a lot, I just want it all
Flame away, I have a hose!
Re:Sweet! (Score:1)
Re:Sweet! (Score:3)
Here, the official X debian package maintainer has some pre-beta debs of X4 waiting for you, if you're feeling adventurous. Apt-able packages are due to follow soon.
Re:Where's Espy? (Score:2)
2.2, AKA Potato is the Joel 'Espy' Klecker (sp?) release.
Note, it is NOT called 'Espy', it is just dedicated to him. There's a big difference...
If I write a book and call it 'Foobar', and dedicate it to Bob Smith, it is not called 'Bob Smith', but rather Foobar.
Of course they'll include it. (Score:1)
F.O. Dobbs
Portal-Potty [portal-potty.com] contributor and Mr. Brown Drinker.
Re:Debian should be careful... (Score:1)
Re:Debian should be careful... (Score:1)
Re:How does this affect the standard desktop? (Score:2)
I'd imagine that this would be the case for KDE2 as well...
I'll learn to preview :) (Score:1)
Re:KDE2 Officially in Potato? (Score:1)
If you want to apt-get the official packages, you need to point apt to the Woody archive.
KDE2 Officially in Potato? (Score:5)
More info in:
<a href="http://kde.tdyc.com/Debian/">RevKrusty's Site</a>.
A related RMS-joke (Score:1)
http://www.ubersoft.net/d/20000906.html
Where's Espy? (Score:1)
Not Espy then.
Shows how much the community cares.
Re:What this means for GNOME (Score:1)
Promoting his own team! The shamelessness of it all! How dare he?
Re:Yea, but... (Score:1)
-----------
"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
Re:Sweet! (Score:1)
Re:of course (Score:1)
It is KDE that is now being included, as there is no longer a license conflict.
Re:Good News (Score:3)
QT has always been in Debian; the QPL is a DFSG-license, and QT2.1 is in Potato (the stable branch) right now (I think the qt1.x is in Debian as well, though in non-free). However, now that QT2.2 will be GPLed, KDE's licensing conflict is over and that's why it's being included.
This is great! (Score:2)
Not trying to start any flame wars here, but I think the KDE interface is a lot cleaner and more professional than the Gnome interface, even if I still neet GTK to run gnucash et al.
Besides which, choice is always a good thing. I'm glad the licensing was resolved. Gook work, guys!
Re:Good News, but no thanks to the KDE folks. (Score:1)
Re:Good News, but no thanks to the KDE folks. (Score:2)
Re:Good News, but no thanks to the KDE folks. (Score:1)
treke
Re:Good News, but no thanks to the KDE folks. (Score:1)
treke
Re:That's Cool (Score:2)
In Potato or Woody (Score:4)
With the Debian release schedule change to around 6 months you could safely assume that Woody will contain KDE 2 which will give Debain enough testing time - which is one of their trademarks. I am also guessing that any KDE 2 packages will be add on packages to potato. I would not expect to see them added to the offical version since its already released.
Hopefully woody will have a nice installer too:
Debian + Gnome + KDE2 =
For Debian users wanting to get an easy install or introduce friends to Linux try Storm Linux 2000 which is based on Potato.
The idea that some had of Debian being anti-KDE seems to have been smashed - it was always a pure legal issue. Ok, thats more boring than the gossip but true.
It amazes me how many people still confuse the desktop with the window manager, and the window manager with the graphics (X) server.
So a desktop is mostly for the average user not so much the techie, for this reason I think KDE2 looks more suitable for the average Windows user to make the leap over to Linux. Isn't this what we want?
I wonder if Qt was GPL what the outcome for the "standard" desktop would have been?
Re:Had to happen (Score:1)
Even if don't intend on a flame fest( doubtful with that statement ), using KDE or GNOME is a personal choice, so you're gonna spark yet more tiresome dribble.
I completely disagree with you and think GNOME is better, and we can argue until we are blue in the face. It won't help because its a personal decision. And yes I used KDE2, just yesterday in fact. So let's agree to disagree, and be done with it.
Could Moderators mark this parent at -1(Flamebait, Redundant, and just plain Dumb).
Thank You!
Its DEDICATED to Espy. (Score:1)
Hari.
Re:This is great! (Score:2)
Re:This is great! (Score:4)
yes, I have found the kde2.0 interfaces to be more contemporary than GNOME's current toolkit interface.
..the KDE developers have a good grip on what others want based on feedback from *other*, more proprietary interfaces. Where KDE makes a great effort to blend in, Gtk and GNOME are unique aside from what one might consider a "standard" interface.
I have found that KDE has more mature app integration than GNOME, *CURRENTLY*; more specifically, KOffice. It's amazing what KDE has been able to accomplish as far as developing the various KOffice apps to the point at which they are at now.
KDE was made to bridge the gap between the average computer user and the power of Linux. GNOME was created with this same goal; presumably, from a developer's point of view.
To summarize:
This is definitely a good thing... (Score:3)
Plus, I'm looking forward to getting ahold of Magellan!
Hey guys, keep in mind that part of what we love about Linux is the fact that we have a CHOICE. That choice should definitely extend to the GUI we use, whether you agree with their politics or not.
If you're really cool... (Score:1)
I think the big change is that now you don't have to feel bad about liking kde on your Debian box because your family likes it better.
Re:What this means for GNOME (Score:1)
http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000
Good news for choice, but who will lead? (Score:1)
Wonder how much they will co-operate like Linux people should??
End Result, Debian is THE "Free" OS, by the people for the people and soon it will have two interfaces that dummies can be let loose on (in terms of damaging them not them damaging the machine
Re:Good News (Score:1)
Re:ftp.debian.org is down or just swamped? (Score:1)
Re:my gosh (Score:1)
Debian should be careful... (Score:2)
Re:of course (Score:2)
As for the conflict, see a previous post by me here [slashdot.org].
--
Re:Woooooooooo-Hooooooo!!! (Score:2)
deb http://kde.tdyc.com/debian/ potato kde contrib
Pardon the pun, but then it's automatic... for the people!
--
Re:of course (Score:3)
Note also:
Not that there's anything wrong with the license (even RMS says it's a free license, so it must be okay, right? <g>), but IIRC, it was these two parts of it that caused all the brouhaha.
--
Ah but... (Score:3)
---- Click here to flame
|
V
Re:Good News, but no thanks to the KDE folks. (Score:2)
Caldera (Score:1)
I haven't had time to install it yet, but all the pics look perty perty
Re:speaking of stallman (WAY OT) (Score:2)
I'm a FreeBSD user, administrator, and advocate, BUT -
Mr. Stallman's website (www.stallman.org) is hosted by idiom.com, not his own personal web server. The choice of FreeBSD was made by Idiom Communications. A good choice if you ask me, but nothing to hold agains RMS.
Re:excellent (Score:1)
excellent (Score:2)
Note: I happen to like GTK better than Qt, but I think the KDE guys have a better attitude than GNOME. And I avoid all "desktop environments" since they're too bloated and enforce too much of a system-wide look for me. (A WM, an Emacs, and 20 terminals, and I'm happy...)
Re:How does this affect the standard desktop? (Score:1)
But anyways
Licence? (Score:1)
Re:BTW, speaking of Debian... (Score:1)
If you check this link [debian.org], you'll understand why. :-/
Quote:
Debian GNU/Linux 2.2 is dedicated to the memory of Joel "Espy" Klecker, a Debian developer, unbeknownst to most of the Debian Project, was bedridden and fighting a disease known as Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy during most of his involvement with Debian. Only now is the Debian Project realizing the extent of his dedication, and the friendship he bestowed upon us. So as a show of appreciation, and in memory of his inspirational life, this release of Debian GNU/Linux is dedicated to him.
Good News (Score:3)
This will also give a nice boost to the number of available packages in the Debian archive once all of the KDE based apps are ackaged and placed into main.
Marc
How does this affect the standard desktop? (Score:1)
Seriously, how many people really use KDE/Gnome/Windows (never quite sure of the differences) for their day-to-day work? 100% of all the linux users I know (which is dozens) use WindowMaker, and love it. As do I. I have yet to meet a Linux user that has used either of the windows-clones for more than a day ("just to see what this version's like"). Time for a Slashdot poll, methinks
TWW
Re:How does this affect the standard desktop? (Score:1)
If that's the case there is something wrong with your setup. WindowMaker is very fast; I used it originally on my old P100 because it's the only manager I could find which ran as fast as I wanted. I still use it today on that P100 and on all my other machines because, speed aside, I think it's the best one out there. But that's subjective; the speed is a simple fact.
TWW
Re:Where's Espy? (Score:1)
Re:This is great! (Score:1)
I disagree. I believe the vast majority of people -- consumers who see a computer as a tool, and just want to get work done -- want one standard interface. If they have to sit down at a new computer, or open up a new application, they don't want to have to learn a new interface. And for those that do, with Linux there are plenty of alternatives.
I suspect you don't want to hear this, but Linux is not going to make it on the desktop if consumers perceive that they must deal with all sorts of confusing, competing, inconsistent desktops.
And why should you care if Linux makes it on the desktop? So that you can get all of the drivers and hardware support you need. So you get the mass market behind you, instead of in your way.
Also, to be honest, I'm sure that businesses want to be able to reduce training costs. To the extent that Gnome, KDE, Enlightenment, etc., etc., are dissimilar, they businesses don't want to have people wrestling with different desktops.
Re:In Potato or Woody (Score:1)
Gnome, because GTK is LGPL, which is friendlier to corporate developers.
Niceness (Score:2)
Yea, but... (Score:3)
Re:KDE2 Officially in Potato? (Score:2)
"Considering how many people have been asking for KDE packages in Debian I expect that we will have packages within 2 weeks of the Qt/UNIX 2.2 release." - Wicchert Ackerman, Debian project leader, in an article [linuxplanet.com] on Debian's response to Trolltech's GPL announcement.
So at least a package will be available to anyone who can type apt-get. =)
- Derwen
Re:That's Cool (Score:1)
>people do have a tendency to make better products whether there is competition or not.
Sometimes, sometimes not. By your reasoning, shouldn't Windows have gotten better over the years? *grin*
That's Cool (Score:1)
Command line & Newbies (OT?) (Score:2)
It makes me wonder what these graphical environments are good for. I'm not an expert admin neither a unix old timer, but I discovered that all the graphical configuration tools really hide the system to the user. If you don't know how to configure your system "by hand" you'll run into trouble sooner or later, and if you know it why would you want to use the graphical tools?
I think Linux (as any unix) is a complex OS and you _have_ to read a lot of docs to understand it, I'm not sure there will be point-and-click administration any time soon. KDE and Gnome give you the (wrong) feeling that you don't have to understand at least the basic of Linux architecture to use it.
A lot of people say that KDE or Gnome will put Linux on the end-user's desktop, I would agree as long as these users have a system administrator who knows what he's doing.
Why is this related to Debian? Because I found Debian to be very command line friendly, I can understand its directory tree (maybe all Linux distribution have the same) and I'm able to use what I learned in a Unix administration book (not Linux specific) I just bought.
I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm not comparing Linux with Windows or MacOS. I just realised I didn't understand what I was doing with Mandrake's Drakconf. Now I'm learning what all these
Re:Licence? (Score:1)
<O O>
( \/ )
X X
Linux should move to a new, incompatible license (Score:1)
Re:Linux should move to a new, incompatible licens (Score:1)