Linux Foundation Calls for 'Respect for Microsoft'

kripkenstein writes "Jim Zemlin (executive director for the Linux Foundation) gave a talk at LinuxWorld saying that the open source community should stop poking fun at Microsoft. From the VNU article: 'Open source vendors have to recognize that Windows is here to stay and that together with Microsoft it will form a duopoly in the market for operating systems. This also requires that the Linux community respects Microsoft rather than ridicule it. "There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.'"

Re:I thought OS X Linux

Nah the summary states that Microsoft and Windows will form a duopoly. Sounds about right. :(

Re:I thought OS X Linux

How can I put this eloquently...

Here's an old joke:

Boyfriend asks girlfriend to suck his cock. Girlfriend says she won't because then he won't respect her. Boyfriend promises to respect her and take her out for a big dinner at expensive restaraunt if she does. She sucks his cock, and later they go out for dinner. The waiter arrives and the boyfriend orders for both. He orders lobster for himself, and for her: "...and bring us a steak for the cocksucker here. She loves to eat meat."

Zemlin is a cocksucker. Microsoft is his meal ticket.

Re:Gates is the Chief of Grief.

Embrace, Extend, Extinguish
This is called "pointless forking" and "not invented here syndrome" in the open source world. Feh, big deal.

The whole world is our beta tester
Google does this. Apple does this. Every open source project ever released does this.

We can release sloppy, sloppy code because we have a virtual monopoly
The open source version of this is "you have no right to complain because you got it for free" and "you got the source code so fix it yourself". Also, Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly on anything at this point in time. Also, there are plenty of other non-monopolists who release poorly-made products.

Security vulnerabilities make us money...
This is just FUD. Show me any proof that this is how Microsoft reasons. Furthermore, it's pathetic to blame Microsoft because people are stupid. Oblig. car analogy: For years, Mercedes cars have had problems with premature body rust. Would you consider this a scheme to get people to buy new cars more often?

When you partner with Microsoft, you are partnering with someone who will be partly an enemy if that makes more money.
This is mostly true for all companies. It's about making money, not being cozy friends with everybody.

Heeeeere's Godwin!

Europe, 1940s: Allied forces have to recognize that the Nazis are here to stay and that together with Hitler it will form a duopoly in the world for colonising smaller and less developed countries. This also requires that the Democratic community respects Hitler rather than ridicule him.

Re:I thought OS X Linux

by that standard, HPU/X, Solaris and SunOS,Irix and all the DEC Unixes weren't operating systems either.

The provision of "general use" is unecessary. A platform is a platform.

Re:I thought OS X Linux

'Mac OS-X, (like all the Unixes), is closer to being a "real" OS than Linux or Windows'

In what world? Perhaps you have some sort of strange unspoken defintion of "real" the rest of us aren't using? OSX isn't an operating system at all. The operating system is Darwin (its kernel to be technical) and the distribution that is based on that operating system is OSX. Linux is a real and complete operating system and there are many distributions based on it. Windows is both an operating system and a distribution.

'Dissing it as "not a real OS" or "not available for general use" is an exaggeration at best, or really just a troll.'

I wouldn't really go around saying it isn't a real OS (technical distinctions aside) but 'not available for general use' certainly applies. Most of us define general use for an operating system as 'general use on commodity hardware'.

'Also, your argument about licensing out the Mac OS has been shot down so many times I won't even bother to get into it.'

It's been discussed anyway. I'm pretty sure the only ones who walk away feeling it was shut down were those who felt that way from the get go.

'you seem woefully... biased in general. OS-X is... arguably the best desktop operating system'

Perhaps you should consider yourself before saying others are biased. OSX being the best desktop operating system is something that MOST informed individuals would dispute (I don't give my own opinion because its beside the point).

Like it or not, not everyone who makes a negative comment about MacOS, Mac's, or Apple is a troll and this is an open forum where people are entitled to think OSX, Linux, or Windows sucks. If you are modding people down simply because they think your pet system sucks you are abusing moderation privs. In fact, if you (or anyone) are modding people down for any reason you are probably using the moderation system incorrectly. Moderation is primarily intended for modding up worthwhile comments, not censoring comments you feel unworthy.

Uh-huh.

So he's essentially saying I should respect Microsoft for thinking up all the dirty tricks it used to get it's monopoly in the first place. ... I am not convinced.

Re:Uh-huh.

Why should I have any respect for an organisation that's been convicted of anti-competitive practices on 2 continents? Microsoft is a bunch of crooks selling a third-rate products. Respect has to earned, not expected.

Re:Uh-huh.

Being a monopoly isn't illegal. Sustaining that monopoly through anticompetitive practices is. After all, anytime someone is innovative and markets it, they have a monopoly. They are the only people who make widget x. It's not until they start trying to keep everyone else from making widget x knockoffs that they're breaking the law. Also, if widget y gains a large enough share of the market, widget x is now free to be as anticompetitive as they want.

Re:Uh-huh.

Because the PHBs do. You don't have to advocate it, just accept it and be willing to work with it when necessary. Then, when the time comes to advocate something else to your PHB, s/he will listen to you.

I got my boss to switch to open source for a lot of things that way.

Re:Uh-huh.

Respect has to earned, not expected.

They've earned my respect. I respect them in the same way that I'd respect a rabid cougar. I stay as far away from them as I can, and when I have to be around them, I'm very, very careful.

Thanks

It's nice to know at least one person here on /. respects me.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself!

Re:Uh-huh.

Actually there was a leaked report from Microsoft from their marketting department that showed that customers were not impressed by their FUD, and that it actually encouraged people to take Linux seriously. It was why they stepped down the Get The Facts Campaign.

Re:Uh-huh.

I think he means you should respect it the same way you respect a weapon. Don't point the barrel at your foot and shoot. Underestimating MS seems to be the soup de jour at the Linux community diner. You don't see the kernel devs eating though, why? Because they respect MS.

I respect the power of physics when I walk down the stairs. It doesn't make me an uncle tom.

The Linux community needs a "come to jesus" meeting, where we recognize the strength of worthy adversaries and study their moves, not dismiss them as unworthy of study. They most certainly are worthy of respect and study! They dominate the market! Dismiss that at your own demise.

Re:Uh-huh.

Respect has to earned, not expected.

I think you have that confused with trust. Trust is earned, respect must be given away and revoked as necessary.

Not just that.

You should also respect them for publicly claiming that Linux "violates" X patents owned by Microsoft.

And that anyone using Linux (unless specially licensed) owes Microsoft some money.

And for Microsoft's continuing attempts to kill / marginalize the ODF standard.

Yes, Microsoft deserves your respect and not your disgust. So says an executive from a company that has purchased a "partnership" with Microsoft.

Re:Uh-huh.

In truth, the best course is to have nothing to do with Microsoft or its products and get on with life.

I think this is the best example of "Easier said than done" I've seen on slashdot in years. I think I'd equate it to: "Don't like nitrogen? Well - just don't breathe it in." :P

Respect? For M$?

What is this, Hug a Grizzly Bear Week? Be Nice to the Sharks Month? This man Zemlin is obviously either a shill or a sad deluded man who needs to be shipped off to the re-education camps as soon as possible!

So MS does marketting, Linux does software?

"There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.

So what he's saying is that Linux excels at being good software, while Microsoft only excel at marketing practices? Sounds like a double-edged compliment to Microsoft to me!

I've been saying this forever.

Linux geeks should just treat Microsoft the way the Chinese government treats the US Government... a necessary enemy. Only there as a stepping stone to sovereignty or self sufficiency. Let them tout themselves, let them think they're winning, and then, when the chips are down, yank the last card from their house of cards... and watch them fall.

Sun Tzu was right though, you can either wean yourself off the enemy and create your own destiny, or you can destroy Darth Vader and take his place at the Emperor's side. Either you choose a side, or you don't play their game. Most Linux geeks have chosen a side, and will eventually find themselves in Darth Vader's shoes. It is inevitable when one takes the path of confrontation. One monster must be created to oppose the existing one, unless the wise man fends off the monster and lets it die of its own irrelevance.

Re:Wait, what?

Have you ever used XP or 2000? It's not "shitty". It's certainly not the best thing ever, but it sure as fuck beats using Linux for a desktop machine. Please note that I ran Linux as my only OS from 1997 through 2002 and then went back and haven't returned.

It may not be shitty in an absolute sense, but given the amount of money and time that have been spent on it, shitty it still is. If our industry was composed of several large operating system companies rather than one behemoth and a dozen hanging on by their fingernails we would be much much better off. Microsoft didn't get where they are primarily by the strength of their technology offerings but by other less ethical means. Bait and switch, kickbacks, embrace and extinguish, buyout and extinguish and numerous similar gimmickry do more to describe the company than any feature set, or heaven forbid "innovation" that they are responsible for. They are where they are for little other reason than the federal government (followed by the states) eventually standardized on their products forcing a chain reaction of most companies to do likewise.

If they made any other product than software (which still possesses a mysterious legal immunity) they would have been sued out of business by now.

Given the amount of time and money they have had to spend on it, it would be a miracle if they hadn't achieve some degree of stability by now, as it is, it is a miracle that they have achieved as little as they have.

Glad you are enjoying your Microsoft experience again. I switched to Linux in the late 90's too and have seen no reason to go back. Linux is marginally harder to install, but the "thrill" of re-installing operating systems wore off for me while I was still a Windows user. Maybe you actually look forward to each "new" release.

How much MONEY have they sunk into it?

Have you ever used XP or 2000? It's not "shitty".

Yes they are. Here's why:

#1. The registry. It's too fucking brittle AND it is constantly open by Windows AND it is not automatically replicated X times over Y days so you can recover when it does break. And it will, eventually, break.

#2. Which is why Microsoft shops advocate the "Wipe & Reload" method of "support". It broke, don't spend time trying to fix it. Fixing it is not an option. Wipe it and reload the "base image" that your shop uses. Sure it will take 30 - 60 minutes, but even if you have to do that for a dozen machines a week, it's still faster than finding the real problems.

#3. Viruses, trojans & worms. At least with Linux I can boot from a "Live CD" and chroot the local hard drive and check it / edit it to remove problems. WITHOUT losing all the data that the user has saved to it (see #2 above).

#4. No packaging system (see Debian & Ubuntu). And don't start going on about how you can make a "package" in Windows. That just shows you don't know what you're talking about. In Windows ANY app can replace ANY file when you install it. Under a real package management system, each file is owned by one AND ONLY ONE package. That file is NOT replaced unless you upgrade/remove the package that owns it. (or choose "force" and know that you're probably fucking up your system)

Some of the end-users prefer Windows. That's fine. It's personal choice. But it's still a "shitty" operating system based upon "shitty" decisions.

Re:Wait, what?

Diplomacy is saying "nice doggie" while you look for a bigger stick.

Microsoft is so... 1998

Yeah, acknowledging MS's strengths is a lot like going to your grandparents 50th wedding anniversary; you're thankful for the legacy that they've left behind but at 70 years old and playing Friday night bingo, they're not quite relevant in the same way they use to be.

MS has lost it's way ( as documented in Joel's "How Microsoft Lost the API War" ) and with applications moving more towards the web as a platform, things don't look to improve.

Jim
RunFatBoy ( http://www.runfatboy.net/ [runfatboy.net] ) - Exercise for the rest of us.

Old Idea, Some Quotes to Reinforce

Orson Scott Card

I am your enemy, the first one you've ever had who was smarter than you. There is no teacher but the enemy. No one but the enemy will ever tell you what the enemy is going to do. No one but the enemy will ever teach you how to destroy and conquer. Only the enemy shows you where you are weak. Only the enemy tells you when he is strong. And the rules of the game are what you can do to him and what you can stop him from doing to you. I am your enemy from now on. From now on, I am your teacher. - Ender's Game

In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves. And then, in that very moment when I love them.... I destroy them. I make it impossible for them to ever hurt me again. I grind them and grind them until they don't exist. - Ender's Game

And similar to that is his quote on war:

You can't defeat a powerful enemy unless you understand him completely, and you can't understand him unless you know the desires of his heart, and you can't know the desires of his heart until you truly love him.

Hiding from your enemy is the same as letting him win. - Seventh Son

Quotes from Sun Tzu

To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.

Know your enemy and know yourself, find naught in fear for 100 battles. Know yourself but not your enemy, find level of loss and victory. Know thy enemy but not yourself, wallow in defeat every time.

I think it's clear that you must respect your enemy to even compete against them. If you don't respect that Microsoft has a great marketing, legal & business development department, you aren't going to get far. Know your enemy, understand them, respect them--only then can you become greater than them.

Poking fun at them is only a sign of overconfidence as Luke once said to Darth Vadar & Emperor Palpatine

Your overconfidence is your weakness.

Sarcasm

This also requires that the Linux community respects Microsoft rather than ridicule it. "There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.'"

Saying all Microsoft has ever done well is marketing and fending off competition is setting an example for not ridiculing them? I believe he's just being sarcastic.

No thanks

Microsoft operates in the real world - in the real world I only give respect to those who have earned my respect, or who have it by default and have done nothing to lost it; Microsoft fits neither of these to me.

Marketing Strategy

Microsoft's marketing strategy is actually quite simple. It follows the triple E system. Embrace, Extend, Exterminate. It also has another strategy is the triple B system. Buy Out, Bloat Up, and Bilk.

Uh huh...

That's akin to telling the viewers of Fox News that it's important to "stop making fun of liberals, because they've here to stay, and they've made important contributions to the progress of the world at large".

No matter how important a role some group plays towards making something else important work, the nature of humans and comedy are going to have everyone and everything important to everyone mocked constantly. And no matter how bad that paints a picture of the large groups who mock other groups as part of that process - people are going to be mocking eachother as long as mental associations can be made.

The message behind this suggestion seems to be more a message to "act more professional people, you're making us look like bozos". Yes... it's nice to imagine sometimes that a loose community of groups and individuals didn't have to act exactly like the kind of human grouping it is. But we are humans, and Windows IS fun to make fun of, and most of us say that as Windows users.

Yes, Windows has contributed much for everyday users of computers - it has made many things possible that may not have been possible otherwise, and it will continue to be the best path towards many kinds of progress for the everyday use of computers going forward for the immediately foreseeable future... but it's still contains an endless variety of deep flaws that both mock the underlying nature (DRM motivations, artificially segmenting functionality for legal/marketing needs) of the software, and the human nature that lies behind these things, and our reaction to them.

Ryan Fenton

not the tech

Well much of their legacy tech is crap (see WinAPI). But .Net, DirectX, Visual Studio are excellent projects. So, I have no problem with MS tech. I do have a problem with their attitude towards others (that is, crush them and grab every single dollar in the market). MS got unpopular because of their actions, not their tech.