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Linux Foundation Calls for 'Respect for Microsoft' 486

Posted by Zonk
from the so-what-macos-is-chopped-liver dept.
kripkenstein writes "Jim Zemlin (executive director for the Linux Foundation) gave a talk at LinuxWorld saying that the open source community should stop poking fun at Microsoft. From the VNU article: 'Open source vendors have to recognize that Windows is here to stay and that together with Microsoft it will form a duopoly in the market for operating systems. This also requires that the Linux community respects Microsoft rather than ridicule it. "There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.'"
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Linux Foundation Calls for 'Respect for Microsoft'

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  • I thought OS X Linux (Score:2, Informative)

    by LokiSnake (795582) *
    Duopoly? Microsoft and Linux? I thought OSX has more market share than Linux does. Well, okay, at least in the desktop market.
    • by Carthag (643047) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @01:30PM (#20196395) Homepage
      Nah the summary states that Microsoft and Windows will form a duopoly. Sounds about right. :(
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Henriok (6762)
        Yeah. I read it on the Internet so it must be true!
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by enrevanche (953125)
      OS X is only part of a package. You cannot use it by itself, so it is not really an operating system available for general use, it is part of a niche product.
      • by iluvcapra (782887) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @03:07PM (#20197157)
        by that standard, HPU/X, Solaris and SunOS,Irix and all the DEC Unixes weren't operating systems either.

        The provision of "general use" is unecessary. A platform is a platform.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by bblboy54 (926265)
      And think about how it got to be that way. Remember when Steve Jobs came back to Apple in 1997? The most memorable moment of his keynote was hime saying microsoft doesnt have to fail for Apple to win [youtube.com] and he called for huge respect for Microsoft. Today, Apple has grown into a huge company again.
      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        Hey, I was looking for the proper place to make this exact comment. I also really like Linus' take [linuxworld.com]:

        CW: Microsoft has recently claimed that free software and some e-mail programs violate 235 of its patents. But Microsoft also said it won't sue for now. Is this the start of a new legal nightmare?

        Torvalds: I personally think it's mainly another shot in the FUD [fear, uncertainty and doubt] war. MS has a really hard time competing on technical merit, and they traditionally have instead tried to compete on price, but that obviously doesn't work either, not against open source. So they'll continue to bundle packages and live off the inertia of the marketplace, but they want to feed that inertia with FUD.

        CW: Do you think you and the open-source software community are prepared for this battle?

        Torvalds: I don't actually see it as a battle. I do my thing because I think it's interesting and worth doing, and I'm not in it because of any anti-MS issues. I've used a few MS products over the years, but I've never had a strong antipathy against them. Microsoft simply isn't interesting to me.

        And the whole open source thing is not an anti-MS movement either. ... Open source is a model for how to do things, and I happen to believe that it's just a much better way to do things and that open source will take over not because of any battle, but simply because better ways of doing things eventually just replace the inferior things.

        [my emphasis]

        Bottom line is that ones energies are much better focused on creating a great product, and not fighting a battle. Personally, I think the firebrands and the rabid dogs on either side of the MS/FSF debate just get off on the emotional charge of being outraged or are manipulating others with it. You see this sort of stuff a lot in politics. (Oh, and, what's the last program RMS wrote and how long

  • Uh-huh. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by brennanw (5761) * on Saturday August 11, 2007 @01:23PM (#20196315) Homepage Journal
    So he's essentially saying I should respect Microsoft for thinking up all the dirty tricks it used to get it's monopoly in the first place. ... I am not convinced.
    • Re:Uh-huh. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by mister_woods (949290) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @01:30PM (#20196393) Homepage
      Why should I have any respect for an organisation that's been convicted of anti-competitive practices on 2 continents? Microsoft is a bunch of crooks selling a third-rate products. Respect has to earned, not expected.
      • Re:Uh-huh. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by an.echte.trilingue (1063180) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @02:10PM (#20196729) Homepage
        Because the PHBs do. You don't have to advocate it, just accept it and be willing to work with it when necessary. Then, when the time comes to advocate something else to your PHB, s/he will listen to you.

        I got my boss to switch to open source for a lot of things that way.
      • Re:Uh-huh. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by aquabat (724032) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @02:26PM (#20196869) Journal

        Respect has to earned, not expected.
        They've earned my respect. I respect them in the same way that I'd respect a rabid cougar. I stay as far away from them as I can, and when I have to be around them, I'm very, very careful.
      • Re:Uh-huh. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by e2d2 (115622) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @04:38PM (#20197769)
        I think he means you should respect it the same way you respect a weapon. Don't point the barrel at your foot and shoot. Underestimating MS seems to be the soup de jour at the Linux community diner. You don't see the kernel devs eating though, why? Because they respect MS.

        I respect the power of physics when I walk down the stairs. It doesn't make me an uncle tom.

        The Linux community needs a "come to jesus" meeting, where we recognize the strength of worthy adversaries and study their moves, not dismiss them as unworthy of study. They most certainly are worthy of respect and study! They dominate the market! Dismiss that at your own demise.
      • Re:Uh-huh. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by TurboStar (712836) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @07:31PM (#20198801)

        Respect has to earned, not expected.
        I think you have that confused with trust. Trust is earned, respect must be given away and revoked as necessary.
    • Not just that. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by khasim (1285) <brandioch.conner@gmail.com> on Saturday August 11, 2007 @01:34PM (#20196431)
      You should also respect them for publicly claiming that Linux "violates" X patents owned by Microsoft.

      And that anyone using Linux (unless specially licensed) owes Microsoft some money.

      And for Microsoft's continuing attempts to kill / marginalize the ODF standard.

      Yes, Microsoft deserves your respect and not your disgust. So says an executive from a company that has purchased a "partnership" with Microsoft.
    • by FyRE666 (263011)
      "There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.'"

      Yeah, and we should also give respect to the mafia for fending off the competition with their protection rackets. Let's also give respect to George Bush for fending off that nasty constitution...
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by penix1 (722987)
        The thing nobody noticed with that sentence you quoted (even you missed it) is that it states two different things, neither have anything to do with each other...

        "There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. "Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.'"

        Neither marketing nor "fending off competition" has a thing to do with Windows. Windows the product sucks. Microsoft the corporation has used illegal mea
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by donpeyote (982729)
      really why dont everyone stops this nonsense about microsoft, they are good and they know what they are doing. Period. Everything else is just fundamentalism.
      • Good as in the opposite of evil, or as in good at something?

        I would neither call that particular corporate entity very moral, nor would I call its primary products very good on the whole. The former sentiment is backed by repeated anti-competetive behavior and self-serving lies, the latter is frequently shown by the existence of superior products on the market.

        How are my views fundamentalist, might I ask?

        Ok, yes, they do know what they are doing, and they're very good at selling their products. I m
      • really why dont everyone stops this nonsense about microsoft

        Seconded. Consumers gave Microsoft its (questionable at the very least) monopoly, and they continue to support it. Competition in the operating system market is pretty healthy, and we have many choices. That being said,

        they are good

        ...at what? Are they good at making software? Not as far as I can tell. Their only qualities are, as was said before, in marketing and business practice. So they're pretty much only good at being a case study for

        • Re:Uh-huh. (Score:4, Insightful)

          by e4g4 (533831) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @03:23PM (#20197251)

          In truth, the best course is to have nothing to do with Microsoft or its products and get on with life.
          I think this is the best example of "Easier said than done" I've seen on slashdot in years. I think I'd equate it to: "Don't like nitrogen? Well - just don't breathe it in." :P
    • by Nikker (749551)
      Looks like Billy boy has gotten someone elses pants ;)

      I think I'll wait until they ... ahem wait for it.... actually do something to imress me!

      That is all..
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Cathbard (954906)
      Isn't this like a christian saying we should respect the devil because he's powerful and not going away? Respect is earned and M$ haven't earned it.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by westlake (615356)
      So he's essentially saying I should respect Microsoft for thinking up all the dirty tricks it used to get it's monopoly in the first place. ... I am not convinced.

      Apple chose a closed hardware and software platform that sells at a fixed price through a limited number of outlets. At any given moment, there will be a half dozen or so Macs to choose from on the market, and, if none of them quite fits your needs, well, tough luck. Microsoft liked the look of the IBM PC's modular design, and negotiated a deal

  • Respect? For M$? (Score:3, Informative)

    by bheer (633842) <rbheer AT gmail DOT com> on Saturday August 11, 2007 @01:25PM (#20196325)
    What is this, Hug a Grizzly Bear Week? Be Nice to the Sharks Month? This man Zemlin is obviously either a shill or a sad deluded man who needs to be shipped off to the re-education camps as soon as possible!

    • by o'reor (581921)
      "Hug a Grizzly Bear Week"

      I like that one. Really. ;-)

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by sootman (158191)
      I bet he thinks that if we're nice to them, they'll be nice to us.

      Yeah. That didn't work in Kindergarten, and it doesn't work now.

      From TFA: "Open source vendors have to recognise that Windows is here to stay and that together with Microsoft it will form a duopoly in the market for operating systems."

      Um, what abour Mac OS X? You know, that "other" OS with a higher market share than Linux?
  • by IBBoard (1128019) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @01:25PM (#20196329) Homepage

    "There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.


    So what he's saying is that Linux excels at being good software, while Microsoft only excel at marketing practices? Sounds like a double-edged compliment to Microsoft to me!
    • by Bazman (4849)
      I'm with Bill Hicks on this:

      "By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself. No, no, no it's just a little thought. I'm just trying to plant seeds. Maybe one day, they'll take root - I don't know. You try, you do what you can. Kill yourself. Seriously though, if you are, do. Aaah, no really, there's no rationalisation for what you do and you are Satan's little helpers, Okay - kill yourself - seriously. You are the ruiner of all things good, seriously. No this is not a joke, you're
      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Bombula (670389)
        Unfortunately, marketing is a necessary evil. And not just in business. You have to sell yourself, you have to sell your merits, you have to promote and promulgate your ideas and your beliefs and your values, whether your a person or a business or any other kind of organization or institution.

        But if by marketing you just mean the crap that's on TV intermixed with the shows, well, fair enough.

  • by RunFatBoy.net (960072) * on Saturday August 11, 2007 @01:27PM (#20196351)
    Yeah, acknowledging MS's strengths is a lot like going to your grandparents 50th wedding anniversary; you're thankful for the legacy that they've left behind but at 70 years old and playing Friday night bingo, they're not quite relevant in the same way they use to be.

    MS has lost it's way ( as documented in Joel's "How Microsoft Lost the API War" ) and with applications moving more towards the web as a platform, things don't look to improve.

    Jim
    RunFatBoy ( http://www.runfatboy.net/ [runfatboy.net] ) - Exercise for the rest of us.
  • by eldavojohn (898314) * <eldavojohn@gm[ ].com ['ail' in gap]> on Saturday August 11, 2007 @01:28PM (#20196357) Journal
    Orson Scott Card

    I am your enemy, the first one you've ever had who was smarter than you. There is no teacher but the enemy. No one but the enemy will ever tell you what the enemy is going to do. No one but the enemy will ever teach you how to destroy and conquer. Only the enemy shows you where you are weak. Only the enemy tells you when he is strong. And the rules of the game are what you can do to him and what you can stop him from doing to you. I am your enemy from now on. From now on, I am your teacher. - Ender's Game

    In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves. And then, in that very moment when I love them.... I destroy them. I make it impossible for them to ever hurt me again. I grind them and grind them until they don't exist. - Ender's Game
    And similar to that is his quote on war:

    You can't defeat a powerful enemy unless you understand him completely, and you can't understand him unless you know the desires of his heart, and you can't know the desires of his heart until you truly love him.

    Hiding from your enemy is the same as letting him win. - Seventh Son
    Quotes from Sun Tzu

    To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.

    Know your enemy and know yourself, find naught in fear for 100 battles. Know yourself but not your enemy, find level of loss and victory. Know thy enemy but not yourself, wallow in defeat every time.
    I think it's clear that you must respect your enemy to even compete against them. If you don't respect that Microsoft has a great marketing, legal & business development department, you aren't going to get far. Know your enemy, understand them, respect them--only then can you become greater than them.

    Poking fun at them is only a sign of overconfidence as Luke once said to Darth Vadar & Emperor Palpatine

    Your overconfidence is your weakness.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Torodung (31985)
      You know, I was with you until you quoted "Luke Skywalker..." Then I couldn't stop giggling.

      Should I get you a copy of Bartlett's for your birthday? I mean there's got to be someone else who said "pride goeth before a fall," right? ;^)

      --
      Toro
    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by amightywind (691887)

      High minded thinking indeed. But I'm more suited to hurl insults at M$ from the safety of my Gentoo machine in my mother's basement.

  • Sarcasm (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ZigiSamblak (745960) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @01:29PM (#20196375)
    This also requires that the Linux community respects Microsoft rather than ridicule it. "There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.'"

    Saying all Microsoft has ever done well is marketing and fending off competition is setting an example for not ridiculing them? I believe he's just being sarcastic.

    •       Doesn't Zemlin have any idea how Microsoft got its good track record fending off the competition?

        rd
    • Yeah, that did read like humor to me as well.

      In addition, when he said Microsoft was 'good' at fending off the competition, I thought he was making a subtle understatement joke - because saying Microsoft is 'good' at fending off the competition is about like saying Al Capone was 'good' at running a business.
  • by toby (759) *
    Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition

    Dear Mr Zemlin,

    You don't have to market a product that sits at 95%+ market share.

    All you have to do is continue the dirty tricks (legal and otherwise) that got it there, and keep it there. I don't respect criminals, thugs and liars, and I think you should resign for suggesting that the open source community should do so.

    Yours sincerely
  • No thanks (Score:5, Insightful)

    by pembo13 (770295) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @01:31PM (#20196407) Homepage
    Microsoft operates in the real world - in the real world I only give respect to those who have earned my respect, or who have it by default and have done nothing to lost it; Microsoft fits neither of these to me.
  • Marketing Strategy (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Blobule (913778) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @01:34PM (#20196429)
    Microsoft's marketing strategy is actually quite simple. It follows the triple E system. Embrace, Extend, Exterminate. It also has another strategy is the triple B system. Buy Out, Bloat Up, and Bilk.
  • I have given up ridiculing people who run Windows on their workstations, basically along the lines of what this guy says. However, it is completely ridiculous to ever run Windows on a server.
  • "Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition."

    Thos are not things Windows does well. Those are things Microsoft's marketing and legal arms do well. So, if I want to sell something, or crush people who are selling something that competes with what I'm selling, great, Microsoft is the place to be. On the other hand, if I want to, you know, run my computer, I want a good operating system, not a good salesman.
  • In effect Microsoft has only been on the radar for the average computer user for 10-15 years. The decline of Microsoft is starting, it's not a decline in profits or user base. But the realisation by many people that they are sick of the Microsoft lock-in.

    Microsoft is desperate to branch out into other markets and in doing so their core products suffer.

    People arent prepared to pay hundreds of dollars for Office anymore.

    Their planning and project management for Vista was seriously flawed and the product has n
  • Uh huh... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by RyanFenton (230700) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @01:45PM (#20196509)
    That's akin to telling the viewers of Fox News that it's important to "stop making fun of liberals, because they've here to stay, and they've made important contributions to the progress of the world at large".

    No matter how important a role some group plays towards making something else important work, the nature of humans and comedy are going to have everyone and everything important to everyone mocked constantly. And no matter how bad that paints a picture of the large groups who mock other groups as part of that process - people are going to be mocking eachother as long as mental associations can be made.

    The message behind this suggestion seems to be more a message to "act more professional people, you're making us look like bozos". Yes... it's nice to imagine sometimes that a loose community of groups and individuals didn't have to act exactly like the kind of human grouping it is. But we are humans, and Windows IS fun to make fun of, and most of us say that as Windows users.

    Yes, Windows has contributed much for everyday users of computers - it has made many things possible that may not have been possible otherwise, and it will continue to be the best path towards many kinds of progress for the everyday use of computers going forward for the immediately foreseeable future... but it's still contains an endless variety of deep flaws that both mock the underlying nature (DRM motivations, artificially segmenting functionality for legal/marketing needs) of the software, and the human nature that lies behind these things, and our reaction to them.

    Ryan Fenton
  • not the tech (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ardor (673957) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @01:45PM (#20196513)
    Well much of their legacy tech is crap (see WinAPI). But .Net, DirectX, Visual Studio are excellent projects. So, I have no problem with MS tech. I do have a problem with their attitude towards others (that is, crush them and grab every single dollar in the market). MS got unpopular because of their actions, not their tech.
  • ... are technical. There ARE things MS does well, even technically, but sometimes it's just astonishing how bad the Windows design is. Vista now made that gap to UN*X systems (including Mac OS X) smaller (e.g. symlinks) or even surpassed it (I consider the MS PowerShell to be technically superior to what we have on UN*X systems). But it still amuses me that with all the money, all the people MS has, their OS is still not far ahead of the competition. And if you know the history of MS, the reason for their
  • this also requires that the Linux community respects Microsoft rather than ridicule it

    I do not really care to ridicule this corporation, although they can be ridiculed for many things. However, I do not respect the company, because of their methods to screw over everyone that is not them. Respect is earned, not demanded. I have no reason to respect the technological side of their products either, as I don't really think that without them the field of computing would have been worse off. Quite the contrary,

  • Reading the title on this I had to check my calendar since I got the impression this might be the first day of the first full month of spring. But no, it is still the hot dog days of summer.

  • Respect is earnt. (Score:2, Informative)

    by miffo.swe (547642)
    And i cant think of ONE single puny nice little thing that Microsoft has done for Linux. I can oth think of pretty many things Microsoft has done to kill or stifle Linux. If Microsoft has earnt anything its respect in the sense you dont turn your back against a raving pitbull.
  • by kazade84 (1078337) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @01:56PM (#20196601)
    when they start respecting Open Source and Open Standards.
  • After all the pain they made us go through since windows 95, i cant stop poking fun at them. Thats the only way to withstand.

    If i had stopped poking fun, the alternative would be to strangle whatever microsoft representatives i could find. Id rather poke fun.
  • ... like keeping me from controlling the computer I own, bought, and paid for (and built with my very own hands and tools from a few boards and parts).

  • by Torodung (31985) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @01:59PM (#20196623) Journal
    I too would respect the 400 lb. gorilla, though mostly by keeping my distance.

    He's absolutely right on other points as well. If Linux rises to desktop prominence, against a competitor that has a 95% market share on the desktop (a practical monopoly), then the next logical step must be a duopoly, and it is doubtful that Microsoft will ever "go away." They will likely change the way they do business, like IBM did. Perhaps they will produce their own "open source" products, and then the Linux/FOSS community had better be ready for it, because they certainly won't be free software.

    Expect it.

    They've already proven the first axiom of business. Courts are the slowest moving thing on the planet. Business decisions will always outpace court decisions. That's how they got away with their illegal actions to slaughter STAC and Netscape. It didn't matter by the time the courts had decided. That's how Microsoft managed to pen a patent agreement with Novell, who won the MS-funded patent case against SCO, before the SCO case was even over. Did anyone notice that?

    They're moving faster than anyone can litigate. Being right is not good enough here. You have to be right, clever, and decisive. If you can be ethical too, good for you, but ethical doesn't tend to work against an unethical opponent. Try winning a fair fight against a guy who is willing to kick you in the crotch and throw sand in your face some time.

    Developers had better keep a careful eye on this gorilla, or you're going to end up working for him. Respect the gorilla.

    --
    Toro
  • by morari (1080535)
    Microsoft will never go away, so bend over, pass the Vaseline, and enjoy! Linux can coexist, but more so as foreplay.
  • "There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.'

    So on the subject of "what MSWindows does well," the best examples he can come up with are:

    • Marketing, and
    • fending off competition

    How's that different from the critics saying that:

    • MSWindows is a marketing tool that
    • is designed to block other market entrants?

    He wants them to change their tune, so since t

  • if there was some of the - what was it? 50 or so Billion $ of cash reserves skimmed off folks - involved?


    And - yess, it's all success.....

  • There are two kinds of respect at play here: respect for their abilities, and respect for the intentions.

    I would argue that they are deserving of some of the first kind of respect. Not necessarily respect for their technical abilities in most areas (although they've done a few worthwhile technical things), but their overall ability to sell stuff and make a product successful. Whether their methods are good or not, there have been lots of other companies with big monopolies who sat on their ass and los

  • After all, they are here to stay and the sooner the rebel leaders accepts this
    the sooner the rebels can learn to live with the empire and not to fight against it.
  • I'm tiring of fanboyism from every camp, Linux, BSD, Mac, Windows, Sun, all of them. I'm instituting an oath of "Computer Secularism".

    This sounds funny, but really the only way computers are going to get better is if we praise and are critical of the best and worst of ALL offerings. Not just sticking to whatever platform we happen to check our mail on at the time.

    I use every one (except for Sun, but my current job doesn't require it), and I have to be honest, they all have strengths and weaknesses that

  • by alephnul (150293) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @02:10PM (#20196727)
    I wonder what happened in between this article http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/may 2007/tc20070525_325967.htm [businessweek.com] and today's comment.

    Can you say "Big chunk of Microsoft change in Zemlins pocket"? I can.http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content /may2007/tc20070525_325967.htm
  • Paying respect to MS for using shady tactics, FUD and intimidation to gain their market position is like paying respect to a malware distributor for controling a million botnets. Yes, it ain't easy. But nothing that would be remotely praiseworthy.
  • That is about it too, aside from excelling in steaing what they eventually market well.
  • by HalAtWork (926717) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @02:18PM (#20196799)
    There are reasons to respect Microsoft, but it's not because of their marketing or the quality of their software.

    One should respect MS as a relationship with MS could be compared to a relationship with any other vendor.

    A typical non-OSS user won't exactly be enchanted if they see the OSS community treating another company like degenerates. They don't know the difference between MS and any other company, all they see is OSS devs/users treating a company like crap. If you take a one-sided view, that makes OSS devs/users look bad. That's probably the only view they'll be taking since they haven't worshipped at the church of FLOSS.

    If you look at the civil rights movement, Martin Luther King encouraged all to be non-violent, not carry weapons, and not give any excuse for others to even mistake them for wanting to possibly even slightly exhibit any negative behaviour or thoughts. That's to take any power away from the enemy, as they can't say anything if there's nothing for them to point out.

    Another reason is that truth can come from anywhere, and a good argument will stand no matter who makes it. If we simply expect everything out of MS to be garbage, then we will also miss any jewels, and that's just hurting ourselves.

    Anyway look. Bottom line is to be better than MS, we can't let ourselves go by saying "Oh, well, MS fucks up, we can too, just not as bad." That's pretty asinine. Nope. To be better than MS, we have to actually be better than them, not stoop just as low as them.
  • ... when the quality of Microsoft's products stops being a joke.
  • Microsoft is first and foremost a marketing company.

    Second to that, they are a legal firm, to determine what move to make next that the price of getting caught is less than what they will gain.

    Third, they are machine that intentionally destroys and/or absorbs competition by the means of which their legal firm has determined is profitable and their marketing can promote.

    If there is any innovation at all it falls nothing better than forth place of importance to Microsoft.

    Bill Gates got his start by porting BA
  • Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.

    Sorry, I'm not going to play that game. Microsoft is interesting as a case example, but not a role model.

    I demand 100% source for the computer system that I depend on so I can fix bugs and also as a system that a dying company or product line can never take away from me. I learned my lesson from the AT&T Unix PC (which could have been a DOS killer, but as plenty of people have told me - AT&T couldn't market eternal life) and strip(1) on that system. Never more ...

    I personally do not care what th

  • Not only is there also Mac OS, there is also OpenSolaris, the BSDs, plus a number of niche operating system projects. There is more diversity in personal computing right now than even back in the heyday of 8-bit computing.

    We're definitely not in a duopoly OS world.
  • ....us Microsoft people actually have a lot of respect for FOSS products. I personally run a couple of machines on Linux because I think for their intended purpose, Linux is better. Most rational people think this way.

    I rarely meet someone of the opposite polarity (software speaking).

    Linux does not satisfy every need. Microsoft does do some things better. Much better. And the same for Linux too.

    It's like yin and fucking yang - each side should compliment and respect the other, even if diametrically opposed.
  • In a word: no. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by kimvette (919543) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @03:27PM (#20197269) Homepage Journal

    the open source community should stop poking fun at Microsoft.


    As long as they claim to have the most secure operating system ever: No.
    As long as they count one defect against Linux multiple times in comparisons: No.
    As long as they treat paying customers like criminals: No.
    As long as their software comes without a warranty and they use a lack of a Linux warranty as a reason to not use OSS: No.
    As long as they do not count "maintenance windows" as part of downtime in their uptime/availability comparisons: No.
    As long as their marketing literature is based on lies/FUD rather than facts: No.
    As long as their 2007 "3D desktop"'s features barely matches that of what OS X could do in 2003: No. Want a proper 3D desktop? Check out XGL and Beryl on Linux, 3D Desktop on OS X.

    I think we'll be making fun of Microsoft for years to come, as long as they keep up their FUD and they keep promoting minor cosmetic changes, DRM, and annoying features like [CANCEL] [CONTINUE] as innovations.
  • by BoldAndBusted (679561) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @05:38PM (#20198149) Homepage
    I went to 4 LinuxWorld Expos in San Francisco, where I live. I enjoyed the first two, primarily because of the conferences, and the camaraderie. Once I get through two years of the conferences, the following years' repeats of the same conference topics was uninteresting. After the large corporations started getting tons of floor space, it became even less interesting (seeing the Novell Sales Guys hype up SUSE to with absurd marketing-speak was disheartening). Now, with this statement, it becomes very clear that LinuxWorld isn't for people who like Linux for it's own sake, and I'm not sad I haven't gone for the last couple years. It's now just for people who like and admire money and large corporations, and see F/OSS and Linux as the way to get more cash. Not that that is so bad, but it isn't why I'm interested in Linux. Why not rename this conference "LinuxMoneyWorld"?
  • Who is Jim Zemlin? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by martin-boundary (547041) on Saturday August 11, 2007 @07:28PM (#20198775)
    I'm sorry, who is Jim Zemlin, and what has he produced that makes him worth listening to?

    According to this mailing list post [freestandards.org], he's a marketing guy. Since when do we listen to marketing guys on slashdot now? Did I miss the memo or what?

  • why? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by samantha (68231) * on Sunday August 12, 2007 @02:07AM (#20200717) Homepage
    Why should the Linux Foundation be counseling respect for an organization that has for years smeared Linux at every opportunity and has stated that it considers F/OSS generally un-American? Microsoft has done and has stated it intends to keep doing all in its power to bring FOSS down wherever it can. Frankly I think the Foundation should be called to task for such a treasonous pronoucement.

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