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Red Hat Software Businesses

Red Hat Europe 82

Posted by CmdrTaco from the going-global dept.
Chuck Milam writes "Red Hat has announced Red Hat Europe. Interesting--I wonder if they're going to give SuSE a run for the money? " Looks like they are opening a German and UK office, and have announced that Colin Tenwick (of Sybase) will be in charge.
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Red Hat Europe More

Red Hat Europe

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  • Red Hat is not Microsoft (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 19, 1999 @02:14PM (#1795167)
    After seeing too many Red Hat, Microsoft comparisons, I thought I'd clarify. Red Hat does not, and cannot, use Microsoft-like tactics. If they did, half of their developers would quit. Most of the key guys are Red Hat are folks like Alan Cox. Ethically, they won't work for the bad guy. Much of Red Hat's userbase would leave as well. Red Hat releases all of their code under the GPL. They won't include non-free software in their distrib. Even if they got a monopoly, they could not leverage it, since if people no longer liked them, they could use free-of-charge copies, or make fork distributions. They have a history of doing good stuff for the Linux community, and cooperating and even helping other members of the Linux community (including other Linux distributions) whenever possible. They're just a really good company. Other than Debian, no other distribution even begins to compare to Red Hat's solid ethical stance.

    They're also not that near to a monopoly. SuSE had more sales, revenues and profits in 1999. Together, the other distributions have more marketshare than Red Hat.

    Personally, I'm scared as heck of a proprietary distrib like SuSE gaining a monopoly, or even of the playing field being dominated by proprietary products (which may add more and more proprietary stuff to gain an advantage). Until other distribs change their stances, I will continue to run Debian, and support Debian and Red Hat.
  • I'd say that was seriously broken, as was RedHat 5.1.....
  • Posted by Synsthe:

    If it's boring you, than don't read it. Nobody is forcing you here.

    Oh btw, we'd miss you if you left, but we don't know who you are, Mr. AC. =)

    --
    Mark Waterous (mark@projectlinux.org)
  • Posted by Synsthe:

    That's odd, I don't see you making, or helping make something better. Perhaps you're not able to, yet you find yourself more than able to whine and complain? Standard procedure for an AC no doubt.

    If you consider the distribution broken, than don't use it, and stop bleeting about it like every other sheep who's along for the ride. If you think you can do better, than show your devotion to the Linux community and help RedHat fix their mistakes. Otherwise you're not doing one damn bit of good.

    --
    Mark Waterous (mark@projectlinux.org)
  • Posted by polar_bear:

    Funny, I thought that being incorrect was THE mortal sin in Journalism. Hmmm...must have been that shoddy University I attended to get my J-Degree that convinced me of that.
  • Posted by Synsthe:

    > Now in SuSE you have SaX/Yast/fdisk Which are
    > far superior in usefulness than Redhats.

    Guess what, RedHat has fdisk too. Guess what, RedHat doesn't use proprietary _toys_ like yast - guess what; this argument lacks any basis.


    > KDE is standard on SuSE, well what comes with
    > RHAT standard? fvwm95? Sick

    What are you getting at here? Is this argument honestly meant to be taken seriously? Or do you not know how to change the default WM used by X?


    > Xconfigurator/configlinux and Disk Druid come to
    > mind. These gimmic guis actually do you MUCH
    > worse than XF86Setup/RTFM/and fdisk
    > respectively.

    Odd seeing this argument. One, I've already stated is that RedHat comes with fdisk. RTFM yourself on that one. =)

    Number two, are you honestly trying to count Xconfigurator against RedHat, yet you're using Yast as an example of why SuSe is better? I thought the basis of the two tools was the same -- to make a portion of operating your system easier.

    Hm, so we can see that you have obviously have no valid complaint against RedHat. Have a nice day. =)

    --
    Mark Waterous (mark@projectlinux.org)
  • Posted by Synsthe:

    Actually I've already been contacted by a few employee's of RedHat regarding this issue - I'm quite willing to admit this was some disinformation that I fell for on the part of a devious reporter. I read an article without investigating further, and a few kind employee's have stated their position on the matters.

    No, I wouldn't say they were perverting it, or attempting to extend and embrace it if they gave it blatant 100% support; read my post over again, I was defending them against somebody who accused them of being the MS of linux -- not accusing them myself.

    Nobody in here can honestly say they've never fallen for something that looked trustworthy. I've been the victim of this, and I've been corrected. Live and learn.

    --
    Mark Waterous (mark@projectlinux.org)
  • Posted by Synsthe:

    I'm not sure if there's much point in responding to such a post from an AC. You seem to be quite tense, maybe you should relax a little before you shoot your mouth off?


    > RedHat has these gimmic tools right there for
    > each newbie to use, and thoes tools suck.

    You're accusing RedHat of "sucking" because they're attempting to provide utilities to aid in administration? You've got to be joking.

    RedHat provides the tools - they do _not_ require you to use them, they are merely there as aids and can be discarded at your convenience.


    >Yes default Xs wm, has a lot to do with how you
    >look at a distros plans to comfort the user.
    >Enough said

    RedHat 6.0 no longer uses fvwm as the default WM, for your information, so this argument is void right off the bat. However, I can't pass this opportunity up.

    Are you suggesting Linus is a lamer? Guess what. He uses fvwm (straight from the lion's mouth).


    >Linux nut: I think RedHat has useradd, dont ask
    >me why

    It has ``useradd'' and ``adduser'' for your information. Get your facts straight.

    "It is better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt".

    Thank you, for removing all doubt in this scenario Mr. AC =)


    >Now of course you gona tell me to use configlinux
    >gui command to addusers? Bwhaha what happened to
    >fdisk?

    What does adding users have to do with fdisk? Atleast be coherent in your attacks.


    >Please don't whine Rhat users.

    For the record, I use Debian.

    --
    Mark Waterous (mark@projectlinux.org)

  • Re:Redhat in Europe (Score:4)

    by gavinhall ( 33 ) on Monday July 19, 1999 @01:37PM (#1795175)
    Posted by Synsthe:

    > I would like to support Linux comunity but Im
    > not ready to support another Linux "BillGates".

    I see this statement all too often, and as far as I'm concerned it's got no basis to it, other than jealousy. People are jealous that RedHat is succesful. People are jealous that they're not the ones who could be part of it.

    Read this, for a very good story on why RedHat is not the MS of Linux:

    http://salon.com/tech/feature/1999/07/14/redhat/ index.html

    ..and once you're done reading that, get over it. =) RedHat is not trying to proprietarize Linux, and RedHat is doing nothing to keep the source from the people - if you want somebody to target, target Caldera; last I heard, you had to buy their cd to get the latest distro as it wasn't available from their FTP. RedHat provides theirs for download, and the source is there right alongside it. Yup. Sure looks like they're pulling anti-trust conspiracy moves to me.

    This petty name calling and the distribution wars have got to stop. Having a favourite is one thing, blatanly calling down and refusing to acknowledge a distribution that doesn't agree with you is another thing entirely -- it's dangerous, both for your reputation in the eyes of others, and for Linux itself.

    (Disclaimer: The author of this post does have a few bones to pick w/ RedHat, such as their refusal to support the LSB. RedHat is not completely innocent of all accusations leveled at them; they are _not_ however the Microsoft of Linux, not even close.)

    --
    Mark Waterous (mark@projectlinux.org)
  • I'm really tired of people saying suse is proprietary without any proof. Of course, there is no proof...
    --
    Michael Hasenstein
    http://www.csn.tu-chemnitz.de/~mha/ [tu-chemnitz.de]
  • "Red Hat's UK office and European headquarters is based in Guildford (greater London). "

    No. Guildford is a town a long way outside London. No definition of greater London would ever come anywhere near Guildford.

    Guildford is an easy 1 hour commute by mainline train from central London, but if RedHat wanted a London office, they should have payed for one :-)

  • Re:Ugh. (Score:1)

    by jd ( 1658 )
    If you want something more diverting, check out the sci/tech pages over on the BBC's website. There's a fascinating article on the Fuel Efficiency contest, where a French car won, after doing almost 9,900 miles per gallon.
  • Back off nerd boy, I want a job at Redhat (UK) as
    well, we'll have to have a good old fashioned fight over it. *grin*

    No seriously, I wonder if I could get a job as a
    help techie for Redhat UK, that would be neat.

    Bit of a shame I use Debian really, I'd have to learn more about rpm.
  • I am so jealous of you, you can't even begin to imagine it. Hey, think you'll have any PFY positions going? I'll be good, I promise not to bother you with questions, I'll make nice coffee and if all else fails you can use me to beat people with when they ask stupid questions.

    Come on, you know you want to. :)
  • Yes, SuSe sucks (at least for most experienced users), but there are a lot of reasons for SuSes success in Germany:
    • SuSe supports "typical german" devices like ISDN cards (in germany there are probably more Linux users with ISDN cards than with modems)
    • The documentation, website, everything is in german. This is very important in germany, as many people dont feel comfortable with english documentation.
    • SuSe has been around for ages. I can remember seeing SuSe in local bookstores years before I even heard about RedHat.
  • The Linux market here in England seems to be largely untapped. The only place you can readily buy it is bookstores, and then it's always RedHat. SuSe don't even seem to be trying outside their tradition teutonic strongholds. RedHat could capture the rest of Europe without a great deal of effort, leaving SuSe nowhere to go. Until SuSe stop trying to proprietize Linux, they'll get no sympathy from me.

  • RedHat (Score:1)

    by Kaavi ( 3937 )
    Redhat can do whatever they want, I just installed suse for the first time (6.1) after running slackware first, then Debian, and then redhat. Suse is by far the most professional to install and nicest to use after its installed.

    I only had thier evaluation ios (Its 1 smaller version than the one you buy, its 1 CD compared to 5 CDs), and it just runs perfect.

    So even if redhat is trying to get into Europe, I think they need a better product before they will succeed, because currently its not good enough.

    //Kaavi
  • I wouldn't be so sure. As far as I know EU doesn't have any special computer or software custom and both RH and SuSe have to pay taxes.

    As far as shipping goes I have bought carrots that came from brazil - a mere 5000 mile away. And they were cheap. While mail ordering pizza from US costs like hell ordering a whole shipload isn't that expensive..

    So while I too believe SuSe gets a little cheaper I don't think the difference is that big.
    --
    Pirkka

  • Okay, so you think SuSE's GUI tools are better than the ones RH ships. That is your opinion. That's fine. But I would like to address some factual problems with your post.

    As for default X environments, RH 6.0 ships with GNOME as the default, *not* fvwm95. We also ship with a utility called 'switchdesk' that lets you switch with one click between KDE, GNOME, and AnotherLevel (an fvwm-2 configuration). How many other distributions do that?

    Adding users? We have both adduser and useradd. Both work just fine. I'm not sure what your beef is with paths, either. Sure, if you 'su' you don't get /sbin and /usr/sbin in your path. That's because when you 'su' you only get the environment of the user you 'su' from, and normal users don't have /sbin and /usr/sbin in their path (and they shouldn't). If you 'su -' or login directly as root you do get both of them in your path and /sbin and /usr/sbin programs will work fine.

    As people have already pointed out, all of the GUI config tools we ship can be worked around if you care for that sort of thing. 'fdisk' is still shipped, and is still an option in the install.

    And at least RH users have the option of buying $2 CDs, unlike some distributions.


    --Donnie
  • Competition just muddies the market. Red Hat just needs to do this due to the IPO. I wish a better distro Like SuSE had better backing and Red Hat
    had stuck to the 4.2 version, which was the best version they had, or maybe 3.something. But ever since 5.0, they have gone done hill.
  • Personally I keep hoping that Redhat and Suse will merge. I know that a lot of people would see this as a really terriable thing, but I think too much duplicated effort goes into producing distributions that for all practicle purposes are identical. I know that competition enhances quality, but it also drains resources. I think the best thing that could happen to Linux competition wise would be for FreeBSD to get about 5X its current number of users. That way we could compare ourselves to something that is both very good and reasonably different. Jim
  • All the news of expansion is certainly going to fuel more anger and fear of Red Hat taking over the world. People have already pointed out the number one argument against this: Red Hat is pouring tons of money into code development, and releasing it ALL under the GPL. You may also be interested in some things Bob Young said in a recent interview with Linux Journal (I hope this qualifies as "fair use...")

    "We don't do any exclusive contracts. For example, the guys at Metroworks - on their box, they say it was built for Red Hat Linux. That wasn't our idea - that was their idea for marketing purposes."

    "...our goal at Red Hat has always been to expand the number of Linux users, not to dominate the Linux space."

    "We have no interest (in squashing our competition). Slackware and Caldera and Debian are very much our allies in this effort to make Open Source the definition, to make Open Source a required feature of any operating system the user might consider."

    "We understand our competition isn't with Caldera or SuSE - out competition is with Microsoft." (He was speaking about the new higher price on RH6.0, basically saying that it pays not for the software, but for a certain level of support that their users expect from them.)

    "... we are not trying to compete in the Linux space, we are trying to compete with the very big proprietary OS vendors..."

    Now, of course, the nature of this competition could change if Open Source becomes the standard - the competition would probably move to the other Linux vendors. But for now, according to Mr. Young (whom you can believe or disbelieve as you see fit), Red Hat's plan is to do the "right thing" for Linux.
  • According to the Debian Free Software Guidelines QT is free software. You are making up your own definition for the word free and I don't share it.

    Secondly the document you referenced (http://pmitros.mit.edu/patchwork.html) is obsolete. The QPL was changed months ago (before QT 2.0 was released) and the stipulation that the patch program must be used to distribute modifications has been removed.

    For an objective critque of the license see my post here http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=99/06/25/12462 58&cid=144
  • Dear AC Lamers & Flamers:

    Not censorship, but rather filtering by reader consensus.

    Here's how it works: Other /. readers get to moderate your posts. If the post is sufficiently lame, it gets moderated down to a "-1" (takes at least 2 moderators downgrading a post to make this happen -- unless you post as an AC, in which case your post gets a "0" instead of a "1" by default, and only one thumbs-down is required), which makes it invisible unless you set your user prefs to make them visible to you.

    Ah, but you're an AC, so you don't have any user prefs to set... And you get no shot at being a moderator, either... What a dirty, rotten shame.

    Regarding those particular posts: If I were a moderator (I'm not right now, but I have been before on several occasions), I'd definitely have moderated them down instead of offering this explanation. Incindiary crap like "Red Hat is the Nazi Party of Linux" or what have you doesn't contribute anything positive to the discussion, and would get moderated to a "-5", if I had moderator status and it were possible.
    Unfortunately, -1 is as low as you can go.

    Anyhow, Post #56 is right here [slashdot.org]. It hasn't been wiped out at all -- it's merely been deemed unworthy by those among your peers who aren't afraid to put their names behind their posts.

    Think about that.

    Zontar The Mindless,

  • We also ship with a utility called 'switchdesk' that lets you switch with one click between KDE, GNOME, and AnotherLevel (an fvwm-2 configuration). How many other distributions do that?

    SuSE had this as early as 5.3 (!). Back then, Gnome 0.30 would install without problems, while RedHat didn't even offer it as a regular install option at the same time. You had to fiddle around to get it running.

    I'm not sure what your beef is with paths, either.

    Well, I don't know if this is what he meant, but RedHat's interpretation of the FHS is IMHO a bit peculiar. Throwing everfything into /usr/bin isn't the best way to ensure a orderly and clean system. In fact RedHat's KDE setup is so annoying that quite a number of people have suspected this was intentional to make KDE look bad...

    As for graphical config tools, I'd say in a feature-to feature comparison Yast and Sax score better than the RedHat tools, so it's not just a matter of opinion.
    But the main problem of RedHat's distribution is the lack of maturity and careful packaging. This is one of SuSE's strengths. OTOH, RedHat usually offers bleeding edge technology, while SuSE is more conservative (libc, egcs, etc.).

    But one thing most of you have overlooked is the fact that RedHat bought DELIX [delix.de], which makes an excellent, highly underestimated German distribution. It is relatively up-to-date, stable and offers decent ISDN support. If RedHat is clever enough to use Delix' know-how to improve their own distro, they will really be able to become a competitor to SuSE.

  • What is wrong with KDE this time ? QT has been oficially declared free enough so could you kindly explain what's keeping you now from using it ?
  • As far as I'm concerned, the more Linux companies there are in Europe the better. At least when the Chinese use their stolen nuclear technology to wipe America off the map (except the bit that's inside Transmeta's metaphasic shield), Red Hat and SUSe will still be around.
  • The Heise Newsticker (Heise being the publishers of the very excellent german c't computer magazine) reports today:

    "The german office will be in Stuttgart. As a matter of fact, they are going to take over the entire Delix Linux branch. Delix's DLD distribution should continue to be maintained for at least a further 2 versions, with DLD 6.2 being planned for late summer. In the long-term the more desktop-oriented DLD distribution should be integrated into Red Hat; their domain has so far been most Linux server systems."
    Herbert von Kammerstein

  • If Red Hat switched their distribution (or one incarnation of it) so that all the final integration and packaging was done in Europe, added in some non-US derived crypto packages - ie ssh, gpg & mod_ssl, and were obviously careful about where orders were being fufilled from, they could produce a distro with decent crypto [at least until the EU finally rolls over and does everything the US asks].

    This would definitely be a good thing.

  • Wow! (Score:1)

    by toolj23 ( 24597 )
    Boy, either Redhat is making a lot of money... or got paid already for their IPO stock. With all this expansion the money has to be coming from somewhere.

    Good to see they are expanding. This will hopefully only help linux.

  • Redhat don't refuse to support the LSB, they just haven't accepted to commit themselves body and soul to something that isn't even finished. Gee, I suppose if they said that they were supporting the LSB at 100% and working on it you would say that they are trying to pervert it (embrace and extend anyone?). i don't say the Redhat is totally white but don't say they REFUSE to support the LSB when the LSB is still in work.

  • i'm not trying to knock suse (or you, or anyone) here...
    but how much does it cost red hat to ship to germany? what kind of import tariffs are they paying?

    Suse's overhead to distribute in Germany is almost certainly lower than Red Hat's.
    It's not necessarily enough to warrant Red Hat costing twice as much, but it is something to consider before assuming they are inflating their prices in microsoftian tradition.

  • IIR, Intel has 40+ corportations just this reason. It's standard to create a new corp when opening a site up overseas. Each country has their own laws that could open you up to a lawsuit. By starting a new corp, you limit your liability to just the assests of that company. Also the taxes will be limited to that companies earning.

    This is probably RedHat's primary motivation here, as they already sold in most countries already.
  • I forgot to mention that, as he was dragged off, Anonymous Coward was overheard shouting, "First Post!"

  • And in related news.... (Score:3)

    by DonkPunch ( 30957 ) on Monday July 19, 1999 @12:28PM (#1795202) Homepage Journal
    Red Hat announced the acquisition of the popular slashdot site from Andover.net.

    A spokesperson could not say whether the new site would be called "RedDot", "SlashHat", or even "RedSlashHatDot".

    One regular slashdot reader named Anonymous Coward reportedly said, "Oh. So that's why I was seeing two or more Red Hat stories in the same afternoon."

    The reader was immediately subdued, gagged, and called a troll.
  • Sorry, but you really do need to do some research of your own, rather than listening to tenth hand accounts that you've overhear during a game of chinese whispers.

    If you want to post stuff without checking fact, preface it with IMHO, or some such thing.

    Use whatever distro you like.
  • >There are rumours of a number other questionable >tactics, but I don't want to propagate potential >misinformation.

    I'd hate to spread FUD, but I overheard someone saying that they'd heard a rumour from someone closely connected with a company nearby that says.......

    I doubt though that you really intended your post to be humorous
  • >And at least RH users have the option of
    >buying $2 CDs, unlike some distributions.

    I don't think comments like this from someone at one distributor aimed at another are very helpful, nor professional.

    Please, leave it to the kiddies to play the childish name calling games.

    If you like RH, use it. If you like SuSE use it. If you like Debian use, but for god's dake let's stop this stupid name calling
  • RedHat is expanding into European countries that is more liberal about exporting strong crypto.

    If they wan't they can make CD-images in these countries and include strong crypto. Possibly also exporting them to the US.

    Besides getting closer to many of their costumers the crypto issue could be important in the future.
    Most companies likes to expand their options.

    //Pingo

  • This is an option they have created by starting offices in two rather export frindly countries.

    Expanding their options like this is a very brilliant move of RedHat. This creates a whole new array of business opportunities.

    Imagine what defence related organisations and industries in Europe will do with Windows NT if RedHat made a secure version like you suggest. They would of course also be willing to pay an extra premium for an OS like that.

    My advice is to buy as much RedHat stocks as you can, perhaps even borrow money.

    //Pingo

  • When locking into their homepage there was no info concerning the glibc2.x issue. That's a bad sign.

    Last time I saw some info they were still compiling against libc5.

    //Pingo

  • I'll be joining Red Hat in Guildford, UK in August as sysadmin. I can't wait to get started, as working there is sure to be a blast. It's just a shame it's in England, as I live in Amsterdam right now.

    No doubt this press release will fan the flames and lead to even more knee jerk cries that Red Hat is the next Microsoft, but that's certainly not the way I see it.

    This is seriously good news for the whole Linux population and I think we should all be pleased that a world class company like Red Hat is raising its profile like this.

    This kind of localised support is just what many companies need before they can feel secure enough to risk migrating their services to Linux. As such, Red Hat's new offices will lead to much wider acceptance and deployment of Linux.

  • That's surprising.

    Here in The Netherlands, SuSE is very strong, due in part to their support of ISDN out of the box. Red Hat has missed an opportunity on that score, as ISDN is really big here and in Germany.

    Having said that, it's still Red Hat that you see most often in Dutch bookshops, even since the price hike of 6.0. The company's high profile is working very well for them.

    I agree with you on the proprietary nature of SuSE. I realise that they probably only did that to stop all the cheap clones appearing the way they have with RH, but I still can't agree with it. That freedom is one of the fundamentals of using Linux and one of Red Hat's many strengths.

  • I'm sure there will be PFY positions going at some stage, but until I actually arrive and take up office, I've no way of knowing exactly what will be needed. I like your attitude, though :-)

    Send the company your CV or get back in touch in mid-August.

  • whats up? certain posts get whacked and others don't?
    Sensei
  • And here was me thinking that it was Americans, not Europeans, who had this big thing about communism...
  • I've used both Red Hat (5.1,5.2,6.0) and SuSE (6.1).

    Personally I believe that Red Hat works better out of the box than SuSE. SuSE include WAY more software that Red Hat. I am willing to fiddle with my Linux to get what I want. Most people that are jumping on the wagon aren't. I think Red Hat has an advantage for this reason.

    There seems. to me at least over here in the US, to be a predeliction in Europe for going for more. This is after all what SuSE seems to be doing, and they are German.

    I greedily installed more than 5 GB of software from my 5 CD SuSE distro. I haven't touched alot of it yet, but what I have...wow. The base SuSE includes Beowulf, Blender...why even bother it is a lot of stuff. Go to http://www.suse.de/e/lx61/new_in_6.1.html and see for yourself.

    I think that this development will force SuSE to increase their out-of-box stability and force Red Hat to include more of the software they presently bundle separately.

    My main problem with SuSE is that it uses KDE by default, and requires tinkering to get gnome running. Before you bleat, the first thing I tried was "startx gnome" which turns out to be the answer in the SuSE help. That didn't work.

    My problem with KDE is merely that I want to keep my Linux FREE. I am using it now and it is actually a joy...I am not too motivated to "fix" it.

    This is an important market for RedHat, as the US is for SuSE. I hope both of them benefit. I think the Linux community can't avoid a benefit.

    BTW...

    1,672,934.8th post YEEEAAAH !!!

    Oh Darn. I am too early.
  • While I agree that Red Hat would take a big hit with current users (people who use Linux because it's Free Software), some of the people coming to Linux now might not have that same ethic. You make a good point though. Of all the commercial distributions, they do seem to be the most committed to Free Software. I don't think that Red Hat will go against the ideals of Free Software that let them get this far and tis big. I guess Freedom requires vigilance . . . we just have to keep watching and judge them on what they are doing now and not what they "might do".

    Could you give examples of SuSEs Microsoft esque tactics that you allude to? I don't doubt you, only haven't heard anything . . .
  • Red Hat is really expanding quickly. First I read that they are opening a new office in San Francisco and now in Europe . . .

    I'm a Red Hat user myself, but I wonder sometimes about how much influence they could have over Linux develepment. Fortunately to this point they have been a good community member and have kept their commitment to Free Software by GPLing their code.

    I guess I just wonder what effect if any their IPO and this seemingly rapid/massive expansion will have? What do people think?

    (First Post? - That would be a first for me :))
    --
    Geoff
  • ...I thought to myself that this would be a more logical step...

    Now only if I could talk Bob into doing redhat Canada...he's a Canadian, he'd understand... ;)

    -

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