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Debian

Debian 2.1 on March 2 96

Posted by CmdrTaco from the here-comes-slink dept.
An anonymous reader wrote in to tell us that Debian has scheduled March 2 as the official release date for v2.1 (codename: Slink) of their distribution.
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Debian 2.1 on March 2 More

Debian 2.1 on March 2

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  • Exactly, people need to realize that the reason debian is so good is because of the politics! And btw, debian doesnt stop you from using non-free software anyway.

  • Freedom. (Score:1)

    by Crow- ( 35 )
    Uhh please get your facts straight before bitching about things like this. I can install any non-free package just like the free ones. The only difference is debian doesnt distribute non-free things in the official cd image. There is nothing saying vendors cant distribute non-free cds too, which is what http://www.debian-cd.com does.
  • samba 2.0.2 is in potato
  • Those debs are ancient. Try the ones in slink. imlib-nonfree1 no longer exists - it uses libungif, so there is nothing that keeps it from being out of main. :)

    Former debian maintainer of Imlib
    --
    Debian GNU/Linux - http://www.debian.org/
  • dselect + apt is a useful tool. I like it very much, and I'm not the only one. It manages upgrades well for the most part, and it works. The only problem is the huge amount of packages it goes through in one listing, that could be done better, but I can easily see what new/updated packages there are with it...start it up, view the selections and hit 'oo'.
    --
    Debian GNU/Linux - http://www.debian.org/
  • Posted by DonR:

    Has a nice ring to it, don't ya think?
  • Debian is 100% volunteer maintained. It makes perfect sense, then, that the "main" distribution is 100% free. Like the linux kernel developers, the hundreds of Debian maintainers do not make money directly off of their efforts. And still it is trivial for users and contributors to install "non-free" packages off of the web site as desired. Much of the non-free distribution can be purchased on cd from vendors such as cheapbytes.

    I really don't see where the policy gets in the way. IMHO Debian is the most technically elegant, well intergrated, stable and thoughtfully assembled distro out there. A big thank you to all the Debian volunteers!
  • Isn't that the same day that GNOME 1.0 is supposed to be released on?
  • To be more specific, the contrib section contains free software (according to the DFSG) that depends on non-free software. For example, LyX is in contrib since it depends on the non-free Xforms library.

  • What's crappy about their politics? They happen to believe that freedom is more important than convenience. If you would prefer to give up your freedoms in exchange for a little convenience, you're welcome to forego Debian's "crappy politics" and use software that restricts your freedoms.

    To the poster who complained that Debian doesn't like anything they must be purchased, I must tell you that I believe you have misunderstood. For a program to be included in Debian, it must be free in the 'freedom' sense, not necessarily gratis. In order to be included in the main distribution, a piece of software must meet the Debian Free Software Guidelines [debian.org]. As a byproduct, most commercial programs connot be included, but that is because the licensing imposes restrictions on the software (including things like royalties), so the software cannot be considered free.



    --Phil (For more on free software, read The GNU Project [fsf.org].)

  • Debian's goals tent toward the idealistic side, much as RMS's do. As such, they make the system as useable as possible, but pick freedom over useability when a choice must be made. When the GNU project was in its younger stages, it can't have been very useful. Nevertheless, people made every ettempt to use it and also worked at improving it. Linux wasn't very useful when it started, but it's gotten a lot better.

    The point is that they have a goal toward which they're working: a useable system composed entirely of free software. I think they're almost there. Personally, the only non-free program I use frequently is Netscape, which will be free once Mozilla finishes and I switch over.



    --Phil (For the record, I also have Quake, Snes9x, distributed-net, and xanim installed.)

  • It's a little more complicated than that. For onr thing, the packages are often created by people other than the authors of the software. In addition, freedom involves more than just whether thay're free to distribute the software. Debian's definition of free software coincides pretty well with the FSF's definition [gnu.org]. In order for a program to be considered free by Debian, it must meet the Debian Free Software Guidelines [debian.org]



    --Phil (Yes, I'm a little passionate when it comes to free software.)
  • Ah, but people do do this. On Debian's related links page [debian.org], the first section contains links to distributions based on Debian. I have no idea what any of these distributions do, but they do exist.


    --Phil (No other major distros are based on Debian, though.)
  • You just want to _feel_ like you are using something better. I have news for you. Using a less popular distribution of Linux does not mean you are a better Linux user.


    Actually, you can objectively measure Debian's stability vs. Redhat's. Take a look at this [www.tcx.se], for instance, which discusses Redhat's repeated inclusion of buggy libc's. Debian has managed to have stable releases w/ glibc2 in the same timeframe.


    I agree that ignorant flaming and posturing is silly, but if you need a stable machine.. like for a web/database server, you have the responsibility of being clueful enough to pick the distro which best suits that need. For me, that's Debian.
  • It got nothing to do with cost. We are talking free not gratis.

    /mill
  • If you want the latest, fanciest gadgets, upgrade to the unstable distro. ("potato"). Debian's stable release is for people who are conerned about being as bug-free as possible--not only in terms of programs but in the packaging; most unstability in potato comes from someone uploading packages that were miscompiled, or with broken config scripts, or other weirdness. (I've had to do init=/bin/sh and other interesting things a couple times to get into my system after several really bad packages).

    Oh, and potato is updated every day.

    Daniel
  • Errm, I have a number of non-free programs installed on my system. vrms reports around 20-30 non-free packages. I installed them the same way I install any other package, off the FTP archive. They aren't included on the official CDs but aside from that it's just as easy to install them as anything else.

    Daniel
  • are giving you trouble by their nature of being
    in active development, and other umm issues which
    I assure you have nothing to do with debian. Let's
    just say that imlib is a very difficult package to
    make. As for non-free, that might have something
    to do with using GIF and it's notorious patent,
    but non-free packages in general are easily
    installed by including the appropriate line in
    your /etc/apt/sources.list
  • The flaw in your argument is that if "this program changes it's format..." then that won't be the one in the stable distribution. You would've had to have downloaded it from the unstable branch, so it's not guaranteed to work straight away. However, even in that circumstance it's entirely likely that the maintainer of that package would change the dependencies to reflect the move, so there's no way to accidentally stuff it up.

    So your argument is wrong, but there's a separate argument about how Debian handles source packages. In that case I'd agree, and that's something that the Debian team are working on at the moment (source dependencies were recently added, for example).
  • "samba 2.0 has been released over a month ago and there is still no dpackage for it."

    Err... yes there is.

    If you have missed it, Debian has a very nice package search [debian.org].
  • Maybe instead you should not say anything yourself if you apparently don't know yourself.

    On many occasions have I seen people download .rpm's by hand and running rpm by hand, downloading more .rpm's by hand because there were missing dependencies, again running rpm, again downlading more .rpm's etc. etc.

    With Debian, there needs not be such hassle (though you can if you insist.) With dselect or apt-get, all dependencies are checked _in_advance_ .

    Everytime I see someone kludge around with .rpm, I ask them, is there no dselect/apt-get available for rpm? Never have I been answered positively.

    So, while I'm not admittedly not a RedHat guru, I have worked with it. I have asked others too, so I'm not limiting my scope to my own experiences.

    Please take it from me:

    No other distribution than Debian has something as good and useful as dselect or apt.

    Having said that, apart from the missing dselect/apt-get, RedHat and the other distributions have their own strong points, probably.
  • Debian would make such a nice base compared to Red Hat, yet there are a million RH derivatives out there, and no Debian derivatives (that I am aware of).

    Check out LinuxHQ [linuxhq.com]. The following distributions are derived from Debian:

    • MNIS
    • PingOO
    • Eagle Linux m68k
    • Prosa
    • Debian-JP
    • Linux-YeS
    • DLite
    • Floppix
    Admittedly, there are fewer Debian derived distributions than Red Hat derived distributions - but it would be wrong to say there aren't any.

    Cheers,

    - Jim

  • Samba 2.0 has been in the potato distribution for ages.

    Regarding Pine, Debian cannot distribute it in binary form. It is not their politics preventing it, it is U. of Washington's copyright. They prevent the redistribution of any Pine binary that has been built from modified sources. Changes were made to the Pine sources in order to properly integrate it into the Debian distribution (yes, unlike that other big distro, Debian likes it when everything works together). According to the Pine license, Debian can only distribute these changes in source form (in a diff file, for example). So that's what they do.

    It would be possible for somebody to build a Pine binary package that would not require changing the sources, I'd imagine. I doubt anybody will bother to do that, though.

    The Debian people most definitely do NOT have a grudge against anything non-GPL. One of the most important packages to the Debian distribution, the Perl scripting language, is not licensed under the GPL. There are numerous other standard Debian packages that are not licensed under the GPL.

    noah
  • As soon as GNOME 1.0 is out, linux in general will change for the better (or worse depending on your opinion of GUI, etc). But Slink doesn't make me want to uninstall redhat 5.2 w/ 2.2.1, despite my love/hate relationship with rpms.

    So bored, that I had to post.
  • So upgrade to the unstable branch. I've been running potato since day 1 and things are working fine. Things were far worse while slink was unstable...

    The stable branch, is just that, rock solid. Use it if you want constant uptime or a machine you don't want to worry about. Systems like that don't usually use bleeding edge software.

    If you want something between "rock solid" and "working today, maybe", consider frozen.

  • 2.2 (Score:1)

    by Rodavlas ( 6820 )
    Well, I've been running 2.2.1 for some time on my laptop with no noticeable problems. The only thing that's not so easy to handle is PCMCIA, but that I leave "on hold" until such time as 2.2.2 comes out 8-)

    19:17:47$ date; last reboot
    Mon Feb 22 19:17:53 WET 1999
    reboot system boot 2.2.1 Sat Feb 6 16:10 (16+03:07)

    ie. >2 weeks uptime. with almost daily apt-get upgrades, running potato (the "next" Debian distribution).

  • Too late (Score:1)

    by CWiz ( 9100 )
    I think this is way too late. If I were in charge, I would skip slink and go straight to potato.

  • You never have to do 'dpkg -i' multiple times.

    If you have tried to install a .deb and it complains about a missing dependency, all you have to do is installed the missing package, then do a

    • dpkg --configure --pending

    The original package has already been installed, it just has to be configured.

  • I used to use pine for a while, and I quite liked the program.

    I now use GNUS which is very nicely packaged under Debian. The only thing that I think could be improved in GNUS is the funny MIME handling.

  • The point of Debian's stable tree is not the latest and greatest the moment it comes out. It is a set of packages that have been tested to work well *TOGETHER*. That takes time to put all the packages together and then work all the kinks out.

    For those who want the latest and greatest, ride the unstable tree, that is what it is there for!
    I installed in the middle of the Hamm freeze. About 2 days later I started riding Slink. I'm currently riding Potato. That is my choice. Meanwhile my laptop, which I use for work, I've only just recently upgraded to slink. You know what? I don't care that it isn't the latest and greatest because IT WORKS.

    C'Mon people, this isn't rocket science!
  • It is the very choice that makes open source good. We should not be hasty to condemn a project simply because early versions "suck". If you don't like it, don't use it or just fix it. There is always room to have more then one solution to a problem.


    Flaming participants of a project because the project "sucks" makes all of us look bad. Instead of the incesant GNOME/KDE wars, Linux/FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD wars, vi/emacs wars, etc., we should be focusing on make all of the above better products. There are uses for all of them.

    Stop the fighting for the sake of open source.


    --
  • Flames close peoples minds. Facts open minds. Arguing on technical merit is welcomed. However, I have seen little in the way of argument on merit rather then oppinion on most of the "opposing" open source products.

    Since I'm not a KDE/GNOME user for the most part (I've played with GNOME a little), I can't even begin to claim which is "better" then the other for me. I am primarily a console person (made that way due to my current home machine not supporting PS/2 (and thus not supporting my trackballs)).

    --
  • Debian does not make "political" choices about what packages are included. The criteria is clearly stated in http://www.debian.org/social_contract. The core distribution (main) is intended to remain 100% free. That will not change. There are still a lot of "non-free" programs that get packaged, but the copyright does not conform to the Debian Free Software Guidelines. Some programs like this are put in contrib, some in non-free. Just depends on the exact nature of the license.

    And as always, you can easily put together a package for non-free programs yourself.

    --
  • They are non-free in that they are not redistributable by everyone for everyone. This includes programs that are free for non-commecial use. Everything in main must be free for everyone to use and include redistributable source/binaries. Non-free .debs can also be included on the CDs in some cases, depending on the vendor, but it is up to the vendor to determine if they are allowed to distributed the package.

    --

  • 2.2 (Score:1)

    by Tas ( 13018 )
    I did an install of 1.3.1 and upgraded everything into 2.1 packages. I didn't build the kernel on the machine (small drive), but the 2.2.1 package I put together for it with kernel-package worked just fine. Shouldn't be too hard to get working.

    --
  • There is a dpkg-multicd package in the unstable tree now. It may be accepted into slink for the release as well, but I havn't seen for sure. I don't how well it works, since I havn't needed a CD intstall for quite some time now.

    --
  • It is likely because the very "freeness" nature of debian makes it less prone to split then TedHat. Just like Linux does not split, I don't see any Debian split in the future either. It could happen, but there is more to be had by helping debian then splitting debian's development force.

    --
  • You should be able to use samba 2 on hamm without any problem. Just download the package from unstable and install it. There may be other dependancies as well, so either use apt to intall it or just keep downloading...

    --
  • 'You need to pick yourself up a ps/2 -> serial converter'

    Tried that with no success. I am planning to bring another machine with PS/2 online sometime soon.

    gpm is nice, but not a neccesity...



    --
  • Definatly agree. Mutt is a very nice mail reader, and its actually small and fast (reading and sorting large mailboxes can sometimes take a while tho..). PGP/GPG support hooks in the code also makes it nice for the security consious people around us.

    --
  • Even if the "Official" debian system went down, I'm sure you would see the maintainers pull together and continue to maintain the system. And even if you didn't, the source for all of the packaging tools is GPL available :)


    --
  • I think the problem with pine was something to the extent that you can't modify the source and redistribute it... I think it was done so that there was only the official 'pine' and not pine-clones (pinecones?) floating around... I think it's a rather silly liscense, don't you?

    I luv debian, and debian luvs me.

  • Yeah and so does Micro$lop Windoze ;->

    Gnome rocks!
  • Regarding the choices...

    Does there exist somewhere on the net a compiled list of the differences between the projects? Something that would indicate which one is suited to a particular user and/or application? I've seen much in the way of flame, but not much in the way of fact.

  • If you haven't seen anything in RH because you haven't looked, then why are you posting your uninformed guesses that RH doesn't have anything like apt?

    Maybe instead you should ask someone who knows RH and let them post the answer.
  • Aha! This is why I do the /. thing! Right after I ask a question, I get an answer.

    There IS a tool for RH, it's at www.rpmfind.net. And it sounds very useful:

    [the following is from the website]

    "Basically, rpmfind is a program that will find RPM files on rufus for you.

    "For example, rpmfind gimp will tell you what packages are needed to install Gimp on your machine, where to find them, and how much space it will take on your hard drive (so you can also estimate the download time), and can fetch the required files for you.

    "Rpmfind can also be used to query the RPM database for existing packages using a keyword or a regular expression."

    Sounds cool! So those of us who are using RH can keep using it for a while, yes?

  • But... (Score:1)

    by LinOx ( 17023 )
    Seems to me it'd be pretty easy to set up a script using rpmfind (with a few temporary environment variables thrown in for fun) to automatically download AND upgrade, if that's really what you want to do.

    After reading the information on the site and thinking about it, though, I don't believe I WANT a program to automagically download and upgrade stuff for me. I think I'd rather do a two-step process. Must be from all those years of using MS products (Father, forgive me, for I have FDISK'd).
  • Now you've got me confused again. Debian doesn't like programs that don't allow "full" redistribution rights, but they put "non-free" s/w on the distro? And what's the deal with pine? It's from the University of Washington!
  • Rats. That's disappointing. The reputation of the UW has been stained in my mind. Well, guess I'll move on to [insert free mail prg here].

  • Debian is a great Dist, the developers are commited, and I love the ease of upgrade... at least until you want to do something that uses something non-free. I am having a hell of a time with enlightenment and friends due to the problems with Imlib vs Imlib-nonfree. If Debian could get around their (IMHO) crappy politics, I think they would wipe all other dists off the map.
  • Yes, but try to force apt to overide some dependency that is broken... then we are talking fun.. hours of it.

    Tell me I am making some stupid mistake.
  • Are they killing that atrocity soon? I like debian, but I REAAAAALLY don't like dselect.

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