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Linus Torvalds Blasts Kernel Dev For 'Making the World Worse' With 'Garbage' Patches (zdnet.com) 116

Posted by BeauHD from the called-out dept.
An anonymous reader quotes a report from ZDNet: You can't say Linux creator Linus Torvalds didn't give the kernel developers fair warning. He'd told them: "The upcoming merge window for 6.17 is going to be slightly chaotic for me. I have multiple family events this August (a wedding and a big birthday), and with said family being spread not only across the US, but in Finland too, I'm spending about half the month traveling." Therefore, Torvalds continued, "That does not mean I'll be more lenient to late pull requests (probably quite the reverse, since it's just going to add to the potential chaos)." So, when Meta software engineer Palmer Dabbelt pushed through a set of RISC-V patches and admitted "this is very late," he knew he was playing with fire. He just didn't know how badly he'd be burned.

Torvalds fired back on the Linux Kernel Mailing List (LKML): "This is garbage and it came in too late. I asked for early pull requests because I'm traveling, and if you can't follow that rule, at least make the pull requests good." It went downhill from there. Torvalds continued: "This adds various garbage that isn't RISC-V specific to generic header files. And by 'garbage," I really mean it. This is stuff that nobody should ever send me, never mind late in a merge window." Specifically, Torvalds hated the "crazy and pointless" way in which one of the patch's helper functions combined two unsigned 16-bit integers into a 32-bit integer. How bad was it? "That thing makes the world actively a worse place to live. It's useless garbage that makes any user incomprehensible, and actively *WORSE* than not using that stupid 'helper.'"

In addition to the quality issues, Torvalds was annoyed that the offending code was added to generic header files rather than the RISC-V tree. He emphasized that such generic changes could negatively impact the broader Linux community, writing: "You just made things WORSE, and you added that 'helper' to a generic non-RISC-V file where people are apparently supposed to use it to make other code worse too... So no. Things like this need to get bent. It does not go into generic header files, and it damn well does not happen late in the merge window. You're on notice: no more late pull requests, and no more garbage outside the RISC-V tree." [...] Dabbelt gets it. He replied, "OK, sorry. I've been dropping the ball lately, and it kind of piled up, taking a bunch of stuff late, but that just leads to me making mistakes. So I'll stop being late, and hopefully that helps with the quality issues."

Linus Torvalds Blasts Kernel Dev For 'Making the World Worse' With 'Garbage' Patches More | Reply

Linus Torvalds Blasts Kernel Dev For 'Making the World Worse' With 'Garbage' Patches

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  • Are dupes also gabage patches? (Score:5, Informative)

    by gardyloo ( 512791 ) on Tuesday August 12, 2025 @11:40PM (#65586522)

    Inquiring minds want to know.

  • Wasn't this on the frontpage few days ago?

  • Linus must be losing it (Score:5, Funny)

    by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @12:01AM (#65586562)

    I mean, this is two times this week that he's gone after the same developer for the same issue!

    • I presume that different editors are posting the dupes. To be kind. I stand behind the things I said a few days ago!

    • He just wanted to make Slashdot headlines twice in one week. He must be starved of attention.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by GoTeam ( 5042081 )

        He just wanted to make Slashdot headlines twice in one week. He must be starved of attention.

        He should get a cat. Preferably one without dementia.

        • He should get a cat. Preferably one without dementia.

          Maybe the slashdot editors have cat-like dementia?

  • Dopey dupe says derp

  • That would certainly be my last contribution to the project.

    • It seemed like a shitty contribution.

      • Did you look at it? No? Why am I not surprised?

        • I didn't and I don't understand this subject matter much but I have to say, I find it amusing that people always debate Linus' tone but not his content on these things, because in several cases where he got mad and I did understand the technicals I found his arguments lacking and it all just be subjective opinion. The tone I don't care much about to be honest. I definitely do not agree with this idea that he's the golden expert on everything related to programming and kernels and many of his ideas aren't as

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by nomadic ( 141991 )

            I mean the dude is 55, mentally he's not going to be able to keep up with the really abstract stuff.

            • Perhaps he shouldn't have such passionate opinions about many things then he doesn't understand. I've yet to see a case where he was clearly wrong but he was clearly wrong to phrase his position as so absolutely right when it was often just subjective stuff.

              I think he has even insulted people on not agreeing with him about the obvious superiority of 8 space indentation... that is a very obscure choice. Most people go with four. Some even like two.

    • Re:Last (Score:5, Insightful)

      by sg_oneill ( 159032 ) on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @02:03AM (#65586676)

      Linus is brittle , but everyone knows that in advance, and its an approach that has led to the largest, most complicated , and widely used, open source project in existence being widely considered rock solid an dependable in mission critical situations world wide.

      If Linus yells at you to stop doing something, you damn well listen, or move aside for someone else who will listen.

      • largest, most complicated , and widely used, open source project in existence

        Wait, does Linus also work on LLVM?! I thought he only worked on the Linux kernel.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by drolli ( 522659 )

        Which is exactly the problem. It is a very big and important project and in the current organization structure it seems to have a bus quota of one.

        • Linus relies 99.9% on his first tier maintainers for routine review. The fact that he actually looked at the RISC-V patch and cared to comment on it means he is deeply interested in that architecture, and with good reason. Most probably, the chewed-upon contributor understands that.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by hjf ( 703092 )

            Is the guy who submitted this a first-tier maintainer? If not, then all of this vitriol should have been directed at them for not doing a good job of filtering this PR.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by dfghjk ( 711126 )

            Or not, how would you know? This is more about your narrative than anyone else's.

        • People do not worry about this as much as we should. I don't see how Linux stays good after he's gone.

          Then again we're similar in age so maybe I shouldn't care !?

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by Misagon ( 1135 )

        I think this outrage is not just a rejection. I also think that Linus intends this to set an example, that no matter who you are or how big a company you work for, you still can't submit bad patches.

        BTW, the helper function should not only have been in a RISC-V - specific file, it should have been called "packw" and returned a signed integer. (if you know RISC-V, you know why).

      • Linus is brittle , but everyone knows that in advance, and its an approach that has led to the largest, most complicated , and widely used, open source project in existence being widely considered rock solid an dependable in mission critical situations world wide.

        Has Linux succeeded because Linus is brittle and shouty, or in spite of it?

        I don't think that the possibility of being publicly humiliated because you made an error in judgment makes people more interested in contributing to the project.

        • I don't think that the possibility of being publicly humiliated because you made an error in judgment makes people more interested in contributing to the project.

          And that may be the point. He doesn't want more contributions from lower-skilled engineers. He wants contributions from only the best ones. Quality over quantity.

          • It's possible to hold a high bar for quality without belittling and humiliating those who are underperforming.

            If my boss publicly humiliated the lower performers on the team when they didn't meet expectations, I'd be looking for new employment regardless of whether I'm one of the high performers that isn't a direct subject of verbal abuse.

            • Re: (Score:1)

              by tohoward ( 78757 )

              It's possible to hold a high bar for quality without belittling and humiliating those who are underperforming.

              I'm convinced this statement only holds true some of the time, in specific situations. Generally, the carrot and the stick are both required. Good behavior should be (initially) widely recognized and rewarded. Bad behaviors should be punished and corrected; early instances for any individual can be much less widely distributed (as a general rule), but it isn't clear that is the case in this instance (e.g. highly performing kernel contributors and maintainers).

        • Linus is a genius engineer and legendary bug hunter who had a lot to do with Linux's success. That said, the toxic culture has most probably held Linux back from being even better than it is. Linus even knows that and has had some famous mea culpa moments.

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by dfghjk ( 711126 )

            Is a person that knowingly creates and sustains a toxic culture a "genius"? Is a person who refuses to accept the experience of an OS architect as a college student a "genius"? And since when is he an "engineer" at all?

            You do not even understand the words you use. Of course Linus "had a lot to do with Linux's success", but so did a lot of other things. Linux wasn't technically good, it was right-place-right-time; there were better OS solutions but a conspicuous one got tied up in lawsuits. We got what

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by quenda ( 644621 )

              Yes, Linux was just a one-off fluke. Like Git.

              • The success of the one is not unrelated to the other.

                If the first publicly released version of Git were made with someone without a name and wasn't immediately adopted as Linux' version control system it would've probably died in obscurity.

                Linux would also have died in obscurity it all the stars didn't align. People were close to assembling a fully working free Unix clone from various places but one component was was missing. And Linux certainly wasn't the best candidate, various other Unix kernels at the t

        • Linus is brittle , but everyone knows that in advance, and its an approach that has led to the largest, most complicated , and widely used, open source project in existence being widely considered rock solid an dependable in mission critical situations world wide.

          Has Linux succeeded because Linus is brittle and shouty, or in spite of it?

          I don't think that the possibility of being publicly humiliated because you made an error in judgment makes people more interested in contributing to the project.

          An interesting point. However, does a late submission and submitting sketchy code, not require a response? Or is it one of those "You're doing great and we appreciate your excellent work - but there's a really tiny small problem - and probably my fault - but maybe if you could rewrite this? Don't get upset, nothing to worry about, we value your work, we're lucky to have people like you!" things that avoid booboo feelings and adheres to the code of conduct?

          Passionate people often upset and offend those w

          • I worked with a boss who mouthed off to everybody under the sun in the worst possible way. Turned out he had Aspergers, and didn't understand why people were mad at being called "the most idiotic buffoon on the planet, who I would rather demote to folding napkins rather than allow to touch our technology", followed by being offered some tomatoes that he grew in his garden. It really screwed with productivity and general office mood.
            I just went out on stress leave, came back, and whenever he did this told hi

        • Has Linux succeeded because Linus is brittle and shouty, or in spite of it?

          Gates, Jobs, Torvalds, etc. all have one thing in common: they were/are all widely respected but also feared. Coddling people takes time and at their level of success, time is at an extreme premium. That doesn't mean they have to act like the world's largest prolapsed anuses, but it does mean that there are plenty of people who want to work on their projects and you'd better make sure that your submissions are of the highest quali

      • Linux kernel is actually still shitty in many ways, but every other kernel is worse, so there's that.

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by dfghjk ( 711126 )

          I'd wager you don't know anything about any of them, but apparently you think a "toxic culture" and shitty kernel is what to expect of a "genius engineer".

        • every other kernel is worse

          This is definitively, objectively, not true, at least with respect to code quality, performance and security. Where Linux shines is in support, both in terms of available device drivers and niche-specific features, and in terms of having the broadest base of experienced users and admins. If you need a kernel and OS that will run on nearly any platform, with nearly any devices, and for which you can easily hire people who already know it, Linux is your best option. It got that way not by being supremely ex

          • Objectively, Linux kernel is extremely excellent at many things, just not everything. It is by far the best OS kernel in the known universe, for reasons that I do not have time to teach you.

            • Objectively, Linux kernel is extremely excellent at many things, just not everything. It is by far the best OS kernel in the known universe, for reasons that I do not have time to teach you.

              LOL

      • Linus is brittle , but everyone knows that in advance, and its an approach that has led to the largest, most complicated , and widely used, open source project in existence being widely considered rock solid an dependable in mission critical situations world wide.

        If Linus yells at you to stop doing something, you damn well listen, or move aside for someone else who will listen.

        Seriously. So many people today are so fragile. And from what I can see, his annoyance was quite justified. Late submission, sketchy code. I mean if we want soft and fuzzy and sketchy code in our OS, there's always Windows.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by kriston ( 7886 )

          Late submission

          This is 100% Linus' fault for not scheduling his personal time around a merge window.

          Professionals respect deadlines. Being submitted near the end of a merge window is perfectly correct and professional.

          • It doesnâ(TM)t sound like he has control over his personal time on this occasion. Either change the deadline or fix the process so it doesnâ(TM)t have truck count one.

            • It doesnâ(TM)t sound like he has control over his personal time on this occasion. Either change the deadline or fix the process so it doesnâ(TM)t have truck count one.

              All this needed was for Dabbert to not decide to ignore the request to get things in early.

              I suspect that many people believe this is 100 percent Torvald's fault because they don'y like him.

          • Late submission

            This is 100% Linus' fault for not scheduling his personal time around a merge window.

            Professionals respect deadlines. Being submitted near the end of a merge window is perfectly correct and professional.

            I dunno if you didn't read, but do you think that Linus has some sort of total control over his family? And birthdays. Or is your thesis that he has to eliminate his personal life? Sorry, Can't come to the wedding, or birthday event.

            And that his devs can just ignore requests to get things in earlier?

            FTS:" have multiple family events this August (a wedding and a big birthday), and with said family being spread not only across the US, but in Finland too, I'm spending about half the month traveling."

            T

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by kriston ( 7886 )

              He could have changed the merge window to work around his personal life events. How is this so hard to understand?

              By the way, I can read fine. Nice ad hominem attack you had there.

      • To be honest, I sincerely doubt the success of Linux has much to do with Linus at the helm, in another reality, he died of a stroke, someone else took over and it may have been better, may have been worse. Linus is absolutely not the expert on management and kernel development that many people think he is. In fact, if you look at Linux' hierarchy there is an absurd correlation between how long one has joined the project and how high one is up at the hierarchy. Now obviously there should be some correlation

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by nomadic ( 141991 )

        "If Linus yells at you to stop doing something, you damn well listen, or move aside for someone else who will listen."

        What if he's wrong on something?

      • and its an approach that has led to

        That is complete speculation. There's no basis to determine causation between his attitude and either the stability or popularity of the project.

    • If that were a random hobby you could... Say you do pottery for fun and the master potter isn't nice to you. But the guy has worked for SiFive and the RISC-V foundation, he is now with Google in the Android team. He is a RISC-V/Linux expert, there aren't too many hobbys to pick from, and contributing the the kernel is the most prestigious of all. He certainly knew Linus was from the very start, and got used to the idea you sometimes get a harsh email. https://dabbelt.com/~palmer/ [dabbelt.com]

    • These days the vast majority of contributions are by full time employees, so they aren't going to just walk away in disgust. Many or most of the talented volunteer contributors have walked away in disgust. That's how it goes.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dfghjk ( 711126 )

      You would never have gotten that far.

  • ... because they did not submit their work in duplicate.

  • I'm liking Linux, and I'm not liking the thought of Linux without someone as passionate about it as Linus Torvalds leading the project.

    I'm trying to think of some parallel for the inevitable. Would it be like Apple without Jobs and Wozniak? Or Microsoft without Gates and Ballmer? I kind of doubt it for all kinds of reasons.

    Perhaps I won't have to see that happen. I wish Torvalds good health and a long life.

    • I have followed his work, mostly through Slashdot through the years, I'm thinking as long back as 2002. Linus is certainly as valuable as Steve or Bill in my humble opinion. Steve is dead, and Bill is figuring out how to give away his nearly Trillions of $$, but Linus is still at it, all I can say is... respect. and.. thank you.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Neither Steve [wikipedia.org] nor his boss are anywhere close to what Linus is.

        Linus is the guy who took over the world with an OS that he built from scratch himself, kept it free for everyone and managed to remain close to an ordinary human.

    • I'm liking Linux, and I'm not liking the thought of Linux without someone as passionate about it as Linus Torvalds leading the project.

      Linux has a succession plan in place in the case of some unforeseen event happening to Linus. Right now that plan is that GKH will take over the leadership role (GKH shares the same approaches and philosophies as Linus). One might expect an updated succession plan sometime in the early 2030s simply because they will then both be sexagenarians (and it will be time to make sure there is a new generation ready to take on the leadership roles).

    • Debian has been successful with different project leaders.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

  • Good job, everyone!

    You had one job, Beau...

  • The only question is (Score:5, Funny)

    by robi5 ( 1261542 ) on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @02:10AM (#65586690)

    Do these duplicate slashdot posts come in big endian or little endian order?

    • The order doesn't matter when both posts have equal significance.

    • Neither. There seems to be no end to them.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by shanen ( 462549 )

      The Funny comments are all complaints about dupes? Not so funny.

      The "duplication crisis" is because time is broken on Slashdot. Many stories deserve more than one day of visible discussion.

  • ... for the Great Pacific Garbage Patch.

    (SCNR)

  • I'd print it out and frame it on my wall as a badge of honor.

  • It's Meta. They move fast and break things.

  • Ok, Linus, expand the merge window.

    • Basic psychology: if you do that for one person/group, almost everyone will expect the same special treatment and merge windows will begin to become meaningless.

      The alternate, and in my not so humble, better solution is to submit the changes in the next kernel version. It would have given the developers more time to improve the quality of the code (which it sounds like it needs) and it'd give the kernel team more time to review and merge.

      • I did not mean to imply Linus should expend the merge window for just this team. I agree, for all or none.

        And Linus seems to have rejected these - so the team either fixes and submits next window, or tuck their tails and go to work.

        II also read that Linus had some concerns about cruft in the code, specifically headers. Sounds a little like rush jobs. Bearing in mind that RISC-V doesn't seem to have the corporate support quite yet to have people doing work on the clock, and getting paid for this, I can forgi

        • I did not mean to imply Linus should expend the merge window for just this team. I agree, for all or none.

          That would make deadlines meaningless. There was a deadline to release 6.17 and a schedule of when things needed to happen. While there might be reasons to extend deadlines, doing so because people cannot do things on time is not one of them. This is life. Late to class: Would your solution be just make the class start later?

          • Well, if I started class later, and you were still late, I might just mark you off. No appeal. Or, more correctly, back to the original start and remember what I learned - set the time, let them come.

            • And you missed the point. Starting the class later because of one person inconveniences everyone. The class that uses the room after your class is late. The students in this class are late to their next class. It seems you did not think about other people at all.

  • So the solution..

    make_u32_from_two_u16_high_low(a,b)

    There, now you know which parameter is the high bits and which parameter is the low bits.

    If you were doing rust you could have it as

    struct TwoU16s { highpart: u16, lowpart: u16};
    fn make_u32_from_two_u16(params: TwoU16s) -> u32 { ... }
    make_u32_from_two_u16(TwoU16s { highpart: a, lowpart: b })

  • I know this is a duplicated article but I must stress that this kind of behavior is totally unprofessional.

    First, if you're traveling, change the merge window to accommodate your schedule!!

    Second, don't be a jerk!!

  • I guess some he could use some vacation

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