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Debian Open Source

Debian Chooses Reasonable, Common Sense Solution To Dealing With Non-Free Firmware (phoronix.com) 65

Posted by BeauHD from the and-the-winner-is dept.
Michael Larabel writes via Phoronix: Debian developers have been figuring out an updated stance to take on non-free firmware considering the increasing number of devices now having open-source Linux drivers but requiring closed-source firmware for any level of functionality. The voting on the non-free firmware matter has now concluded and the votes tallied... The debian votes option 5 as winning: "Change SC for non-free firmware in installer, one installer."

Basically the Debian Installer media will now be allowed to include non-free firmware and to automatically load/use it where necessary while informing the user of it, etc. Considering the state of the hardware ecosystem these days, it's reasonable and common sense since at least users will be able to easily make use of their graphics cards, network adapters, and more. Plus a number of modern CPU security mitigations also requiring the updated closed-source microcode. So all in, I am personally happy with this decision as it will allow for a more pleasant experience for Debian on modern systems and one akin to what is found with other Linux distributions. The solution is described in full via the Debian Wiki.
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Debian Chooses Reasonable, Common Sense Solution To Dealing With Non-Free Firmware More

Debian Chooses Reasonable, Common Sense Solution To Dealing With Non-Free Firmware

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  • I'm not going to debate the decision (Score:5, Interesting)

    by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Sunday October 02, 2022 @03:40PM (#62931253)
    But the article is a superb example of a biased headline and would make a great case study when learning critical thinking and how to detect biases. The fact that anyone thought writing that headline was appropriate shows that our schools need to teach more critical thinking skills.

    They are skills and they can be taught. Of course the sizable percentage of people don't want them to be taught for a variety of reasons, none of them good

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Add that those in power are also deep into short-term tactical thinking and hence do not want any critical thinking capability in the citizens either. And then you have organized religions and other unsavory organizations and corporations that would see a severe negative impact on their businesses if people could think critically and do basic fact-checking competently.

      That said, I do not think critical thinking skills can be taught effectively unless you make it a major effort and replace most teachers. You

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by thomst ( 1640045 )

      rsilvergun opined:>/p>

      But the article is a superb example of a biased headline and would make a great case study when learning critical thinking and how to detect biases. The fact that anyone thought writing that headline was appropriate shows that our schools need to teach more critical thinking skills.

      It's an editorial - an opinion piece that includes news-like elements, but is fundamentally an essay on the decision, not straight reportage.

      The fact that you apparently think there's no differrence shows that your own education in basic concepts of journalism is lacking. Editorials are allowed to - and frequently do - feature "biased" headlines, because they're expressions of opinion. If you doubt that's the case, you might want to study the editorial pages of publications such

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        I hate to agree with rsilvergun, but the headline here at Slashdot is biased, and last I checked, Slashdot's slug line was "news for nerds", not "editorials for nerds".

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by splutty ( 43475 )

      Not terribly relevant when a headline isn't meant to be descriptive or useful, but instead needs to gather as many clicks as possible.

    • But the article is a superb example of a biased headline

      Indeed. In this case the headline is biased in favour of the obvious common sense approach to a fucking stupid question that shouldn't have needed voting on in the first place.

      I get what you're saying about bias, but despite what the woke-mangers will say, not every choice is equal, there are such things as bad ideas, and not every goddam thing needs to be naval gazed over.

      • I disagree. There were already non-free installers. This just makes it much easier to use propietary blobs and reduces a desire for people to keep working on a "free" OS.

        • and reduces a desire for people to keep working on a "free" OS.

          Tell me why. And when you do remember that RMS has long since considered Debian to be not free enough for his blessing.

          If someone is so petty enough that the official installer includes binary drivers for accessibility reasons that they don't want to work on the project, odds are they were toxic enough shits that no one wanted them in the first place.

          • There is a middle ground between RMS and not caring about freedom.

            You can argue that making binary non-free drivers optional but not required to be that middle ground. Or you can argue having two installers where one includes non-free software and the other doesn't is the middle ground.

            I think caring about the freedom of your device is not a petty or toxic desire.

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jvkjvk ( 102057 )

      >But the article is a superb example of a biased headline and would make a great case study when learning critical thinking and how to detect biases.

      Is it biased if it is true?

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by dan325 ( 1221648 )

      This is right. It's unequivocally a biased headline. This has been raging debate within the FOSS community for years and years. Not sure why slashdot feels the need to weigh in on one side of that debate when reporting on a Debian vote.

      I happen to agree with the headline (and with the result of the vote). I think all FOSS advocates hate binary blobs and we wish they'd go away, but to the great majority of users, when you run an installer with 100% free software and your wifi card doesn't work, they assume t

  • Debian Chooses Reasonable, Common Sense Solution ...

    No doubt some will see this as stupid and unreasonable.
    I'm warming up some pop corn ...

    • The fact that 5 options were voted on in the first place by this protracted and senselessly overt discussion means there are plenty of people who didn't consider this "Common Sense". There's nothing common about sense anymore, and someone always has to complicate what should be an obvious and straightforward solution to a problem.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by ras ( 84108 )

        there are plenty of people who didn't consider this "Common Sense"

        Given the amount of noise they generated, you would think so. As it happens, one choice was very firmly rejected, were "very firmly" means it got 4 times less votes than the next least popular choice, and 13 times less votes than the most popular choice. It was the only choice that rejected the including non-free in any form:

        Choice 4: Installer with non-free software is not part of Debian

  • After the completely botched SystemD decision, I pretty much expected Debian to slide deeper and deeper into incompetence. This gives at least some hope that may not happen.

    • Re:An unexpected outbreak of common sense (Score:5, Insightful)

      by bill_mcgonigle ( 4333 ) * on Sunday October 02, 2022 @04:45PM (#62931381) Homepage Journal

      Just stop complaining already. Everybody is over it.

      https://www.devuan.org/os/init... [devuan.org]

    • After the completely botched SystemD decision

      Nothing botched about it. SystemD won on technical grounds and was chosen for the benefit of distro maintainers. You don't like it, there are alternate forks for you to use. However considering the small following they had it would seem a large portion of the user base has no issue with SystemD either.

      OpenSource: The solution to everything, except the solution to people complaining about something they literally have a choice not to use. www.devuan.org.

      • Re:An unexpected outbreak of common sense (Score:5, Insightful)

        by ArchieBunker ( 132337 ) on Sunday October 02, 2022 @06:02PM (#62931515)

        It certainly says a lot that the author of systemd now works for Microsoft.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by gweihir ( 88907 )

          It certainly says a lot that the author of systemd now works for Microsoft.

          Well, at least there he fits right in competence-wise.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by aergern ( 127031 )

            Code the replacement or stop whining. 400+ distros out there, go find one that suits you.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by gweihir ( 88907 )

              There is no need to "code the replacement", because SystemD is the replacement. Seriously. No clue, big mouth.

              • The thing that pisses me off is no consistency across platforms even with the same distro. Take Ubuntu for example. Setting a static ip on an arm board running the same version of Ubuntu as a desktop is vastly different.

            • Use whatever the later versions of Solaris had. Worked great and didn't meddle with my bootloader or DNS entries.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          It says systemd is popular and has stood the test of time, so Microsoft hired him to better integrate it into Windows Subsystem for Linux.

          WSL has reached the point where you can run GUI apps and get near native performance from the Linux side. I'm as shocked as any, but Microsoft seems to have built an actually good product.

        • It certainly says a lot that the author of systemd now works for Microsoft.

          That he's a software engineer who goes where money is? Did Microsoft hire all the developers of other init systems as well?

    • I don't think following the lead of most other mainstream distros is the same as "botched".

      While serving practical purposes, this decision does weaken Debian's stance on using non-free software in our computers. Maybe not as weak on this issue as Canonical, but for most people looking for convenience without politics Ubuntu was always the better option.

      P.S. I mainly run Debian on my own systems. And I'm a point of contact at my work for Debian support in some of our products.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by gweihir ( 88907 )

        Have you looked at how the actual decision was made?

        • Have you looked at how the actual decision was made?

          I have. On technical grounds with an open debate. It won on technical grounds as well. We get it, you were ignored because you like writing bash scripts and using a system that was so functionally unfit for purpose that it relies on multiple other programs to achieve the same thing. Go use your 1990s era computer gweihir or just shake your stick at kids on your lawn. Stop holding up progress in the rest of the world and stop bitching about others who disagree with you on how *they* should run *their project

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by leafz ( 4572491 )
      There was a vote and systemd lost. https://lists.debian.org/debia... [debian.org] It's like saying it was a botched decision to choose the current president. At the end of the day, it's your choice whether or not to use a systemd-based distro. Please don't complain to the rest of us about a choice that you freely made....especially when there are systemd-free distros out there. No one wants to hear that.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by deek ( 22697 )

      What was botched? My Debian work systems still boot. Their services still start, along with custom services I've defined on them. My laptop also starts fine, along with services I've enabled there.

      From where I'm standing, your complaints about Debian and SystemD just appear to be shrill.

      What I DO appreciate though, is that the Debian installer will now have non-free firmware available. Which would have been a great convenience on my recent install of Debian onto a new laptop. Damn Intel wifi always get

      • What was botched?

        The relationship was botched. They broke gweihir's heart. He thought they loved him and then they had the audacity to change something.

  • Hopefully those days are over where you needed to connect to the ethernet to install non-free firmware drivers for WiFi ... :-)
    • not everybody has access to an ethernet connection, i have two laptops running Slackware-15 and only occupancy get online with one and my only source for internet is to use an iphone as a wi-fi hotspot

      • Protip: Grab a GL.inet Mango for $19 and keep it set up as a client for your tethering hotspot. Comes in handy more than you might expect. Common USB Ethernet devices bridge the gap on lite laptops.

  • So will I need to buy a product key, or do I simply type my debit/credit card number during the installation?

  • Open source would be greatly diminished if commercial software developers didn't use it when they are able to comply with the license without sabotaging their business model. Open source developers need the same pragmatic approach. Freedom to customize vast majority of ways one's device works is well worth not being able to customize some limited aspects of it, that would not have worked otherwise anyway.

  • I'll supply source code for anything Debian wants!
    ...
    33 DATA162,255,154,160,128,185,80,3:rem 238
    34 DATA153,63,1,136,208,247,76,64:rem 144
    35 DATA1,169,0,32,189,255,169,1: rem 43
    36 DATA170,160,0,32,186,255,169, 0:rem 134
    ...
    ;-)

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