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Reactions to Arch Linux's New Guided Installer (linuxreviews.org) 108

Posted by EditorDavid from the performance-reviews dept.
Long-time Slashdot reader xiando quotes LinuxReviews: The community distribution Arch Linux has up to now required you to manually install it by entering a whole lot of scary commands in a terminal. Arch version 2021.04.01 features a new guided installer [reached by] typing python -m archinstall guided into the console you get when you boot the Arch Linux installation ISO.

It is not very novice-friendly, or user-friendly, but it gets the job done and it will work fine for those with some basic GNU/Linux knowledge.
Tech Radar writes that previously Arch Linux had "a rather convoluted installation process, which has given rise to a stream of Arch-based distros that are easier to install," adding that the new installer "was reportedly promoted as an official installation mechanism back in January, and was actively worked upon leading to its inclusion in the installation medium." Users have been calling on Arch Linux for simplifying the installation process for a long time, to bring it in line with other Linux distros. However, the Arch philosophy has always been to put the users in charge of every aspect of their installation, which is the antithesis of automated installers.
Phoronix calls the new installer "very quick and easy," although "granted not as user-friendly / polished as say the Debian Installer, Red Hat's Anaconda installer, even Ubuntu's Subiquity, and other TUI/GUI Linux installers out there." They also note that Archinstall "does allow automatically partitioning the drive with your choice of file-system options, automatically installing a desktop environment if desired, configuring the network interfaces, and all the other basics." The method is quick enough that I'll likely use archinstall for future Arch Linux benchmarks on Phoronix as it also then applies a sane set of defaults for users... Five minutes or less and off to the races, ready for Arch Linux."
But Slashdot reader I75BJC still favors "scary commands in a terminal," leaving this comment on the original submission: If you can't type with the big adults, stay on your PlayStation.

Even Apple, with its very good GUI has a command line. The command line commands are more flexible, more specific, more subtle than the pointy-clicky GUI.
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Reactions to Arch Linux's New Guided Installer More

Reactions to Arch Linux's New Guided Installer

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  • TL:DR Command lines can be easily replaced/enhanced in most cases. Linux has low distribution to the general public because Linux deliberately goes out of its way to be difficult to use, in the name of elitism.

    A command line is great, powerful, and super useful. It is also completely unnecessary for 99% of use cases. "If you don't know how to use a command line, go get a baby computer" Really? This is exactly the problem for Linux getting widely adopted by the mainstream, Linux "proponents", who are worse t

    • No, we're not being elit*ist*. We literally *are* the elite.

      AI'm sorry some people seem not nice to you about it, but it's mostly your jealousy and inferiority complex.

      You're like if I went to a ore mine shaft entry, and told the workers leaving there they are being "toughist" and demand being seen as equal with my white ironed shirt, maicured fingernails and museum archive front desk job that gets 2 guests a month.

      • Yeah, my comment was way more flamebaity that I intended, posting when I should be sleeping is never good.

        Pretty sure you are not being serious... but to use your analogy.. I am saying that the miners don't bother using mechanized tools that would make their job easier, because they "like to feel the rock under their picks, it is the only way to be SURE they are mining properly"

        You and your white shirt CAN go work in the mines, if the mine was trying to mine efficiently. Actually, your example is very good!

    • There are other distributions than Gentoo, you know that, right?

    • Why does one have to conflict with the other?

      UIs and command lines have different purposes, though with some overlap, and are meant for different kinds of users, again with some overlap.

      Any reasonable desktop or laptop OS should offer both, and every popular desktop and laptop OS does in fact offer both.

      Touch devices are a different story. Command lines work less well there because of the degree of typing (of not just alphanumeric but special characters) required. But I routinely ssh into other systems fr

  • I can remember a Mac user asking me how to change his local password. I looked at him for a sec, went to the command line and used passwd. As long as there are options then everyone can make it work, gotta start somewhere.

  • The main challenge that Linux faces on the desktop (Score:5, Insightful)

    by erp_consultant ( 2614861 ) on Saturday April 10, 2021 @08:13PM (#61259830)

    is that Windows comes preinstalled on the vast majority of home computers. So in order to run Linux you have to first find a distribution that you want to run (out of literally hundreds, maybe thousands of them). For most new users that's going to be Ubuntu or Linux Mint. Then you have to download the ISO file and burn it on to a USB drive. Not copy it, burn it there so that it is bootable. Then you have to reboot the computer, with the USB plugged in, and hope your ISO image boots up. If not you have to go to the BIOS and make a few changes and try again. And so on and so on. All of this even before you even get to the installer the article mentions.

    For an experienced, and determined, computer user all of this is doable. But can you imagine Aunt Mable doing this? Neither can I.

    Now I've been running Linux on my home computer for years and the installer is by far the easiest part of the whole thing. Once you get it all installed and set up the way you like it's just incredible how fast, smooth and stable it is. But most people haven't got the knowledge or desire to go through what it takes to get there.

    I kind of have mixed feelings about this new easier installer for Arch. Yes it opens it up to a larger audience but in days past it was a badge of honor to get Arch installed. It wasn't easy and it's not supposed to be. The beauty of it is that you can configure it to be exactly what you want it to be - server, gaming rig, music production, you name it.

    My advise to most people is that if you want to try something Arch based then try Manjaro. It's very easy to install and they use all the right packages. It is fast and stable. If you want to install pure Arch it's probably best to do it in a VM a few times until you get it down and then try it on bare metal.

    • I honestly don't get the 'arch is hard' way of thinking

      Literally all I do these days is run pacman -Syu once every few days and everything just works. If anything Arch is making me dumber because I simply have no issues to solve any more! (though granted I don't do anything fancy or have unusual hardware - YMMV)

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by narcc ( 412956 )

        I honestly don't get the 'arch is hard' way of thinking

        I'm fairly certain that Arch users want it to be hard to use. A few of them are even vocally outraged that this guided installer exists.

        I really don't get gatekeeping. If you like something, wouldn't you want to share it with as many people as possible?

        • I'm not familiar with the Arch community, but, if they are anything like my fellow Gentooers, they probably don't want it to be hard per se. What they want is that it won't have to be dumbed down to the point of being less useful. That you will learn and understand enough that it won't seem hard anymore. Enough that you will truly understand and be in control of your computing experience. Presuming that is your goal. If it isn't, then, of course, maybe Arch or Gentoo, or maybe desktop Linux itself, mi

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by narcc ( 412956 )

            I can appreciate that. There have been a few times when I've almost shouted "why can't I just change x!" at some graphical interface.

            Though I'd say that the very vocal objections to this completely optional installer tells a very different story.

            There is absolutely no reason why we can't have both a system that doesn't limit the user in anyway, and simple "dumbed down" interfaces for common tasks. If you don't want the simple interface, you don't have to use it. You could even just remove it from your sy

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        pacman -Syu

        You have to run a command line app with specific, case sensitive single character parameters regularly. For most people that's not as easy as a graphical prompt that says "here are some updates, do you want to install them?"

        At least with apt and Chocolatey the parameters are a bit easier to handle. "choco update all" isn't too bad, and easier to remember.

        • For regular command line calls, I normally just open a shell and press the scroll-up button until I hit the last time I ran it. As long as I get it right the first time, I don't need to type it in again
      • On the other hand, if you execute 'pacman -Sy' you will fuck up your entire system by just missing the 'u'. The Arch community will be indignant about you not reading every line of the documentation.
      • Huh. I would almost say the same thing about my Gentoo box. Almost. Except that things do go wrong from time to time, and when they do, it helps to know one's way around Linux and the command line utilities in order to find and fix things. I run a mixed-ARCH system (amd64 and ~amd64) which buys me stability where I prefer it, and bleeding-edge features where I prefer those, but at the cost of occasional issues that I do have to get my hands just very slightly dirty in order to fix.
    • is that every time Linux on the Desktop has a chance of becoming a thing Microsoft leans on the OEM partners and they either stop or get run out of business.

      Sure, there's a few niche players too small for anyone to notice or care, but if anyone even as big as Acer dips their toes in their done for. Microsoft pulls their OEM contracts and they're toast.

      The real challenge is our complete lack of anti trust law enforcement.

      • Yup totally agree. In a fair system the consumer would have the choice of OS but as you point out, Microsoft turns the screws on their competitors every chance they get. There are a few systems you can get with Linux preinstalled but those are few and far between.

        The good news is that once you have done a few Linux installs it's really pretty easy. Video cards and Network cards not working are a thing of the past. It's fast, secure and stable. The only time I use Windows is at work and it sucks but I hold m

        • I find laptops are still a little bit hit and miss. Like I've never had a big issue, but I feel like I always have to go and do quite a bit of research before I buy something. If I ask for advice it's always 'buy a used Thinkpad' which is quite annoying. In fact the most difficulty I ever had with a laptop was trying to install Arch on an Acer Ryzen one I got my kid; that just didn't work at all and I ended up installing Kubuntu or something.

          Having said, that using an HP Elitebook from work right now and it

        • which is why we used to have the Government act as capitalism's referee. These days capitalism is more like gladiator games where the lucky guys get poisoned blades and armor and the rest get fed to lions.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        You can buy Lenovo and Dell laptops with Linux pre-installed. The Lenovo ones are their latest models too, including ultrabooks and portable workstations. Have not looked at Dell.

        These days hardware support in Linux is better than ever. Many devices that used to need proprietary drivers can use generic ones now, e.g. webcams have a standard USB interface. Microsoft doesn't do anything to stop Linux being installed or used, they don't have to.

        The issue with Linux is that people just want to run their apps. M

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by bn-7bc ( 909819 )
      And that process /getting to the installer) would just be as complicated if Linux was pre-installed and the aunt in question wanted to change to windows, oh no wait they would have tu get a license so entering addresses and cc info as well. Ok this is hardly a typical cenario but my point is that the hard to get to the installer part iis kind of un fair. As for the rest of your post, I fully agree (not that I can really comment on Arch/Manjaro as I've never used either (rh derivatives and lately ubuntu)), m

    • Somewhere out there, there must be a Windows program that basically downloads a Linux ISO, formats and installs it onto a removable drive, preps the partition table (so if you like your Windows, you can keep your Windows), and reboots, with guiding/safety prompts as needed so it won't do anything destructive unless you tell it you want to. Then, on next reboot, you get to your Ubuntu or Mint or Arch or whatever installer, follow those prompts, and then you're done, with very little work other than waiting

      • Well, you would think so but this is part of the MS strategy. Incompatible file systems, locked boot loader, proprietary formats. Unlike Linux, which is free and open by design, Windows is locked in by design. When you buy a new computer is has Windows loaded on it - whether you want it or not. Even if you go to the trouble of removing it and installing Linux you have still effectively paid for the license since it is baked into the price by virtue of the stranglehold that MS has on the hardware vendors. Mi

        • All reasons why I prefer Linux. But also great reasons to try to make sure that the experience of trying out Linux, for those who wish to but might not know exactly how, is as straightforward as possible.

          There aren't any legal or technical restrictions that I'm aware of. Just 3 essential steps: download the appropriate ISO, write it to thumb drive, and reboot. From that point, whatever installation program or process is on the ISO takes over.

          (I would recommend that it create partition(s) for use by Linux

          • Agreed. The installation really needs to be idiot proof. If it detects a Windows partition do not overwrite unless the user specifically says so. So dual boot is the default configuration. If, at a later time, they decide they want to keep Linux and get rid of Windows it would be great to have some mechanism for copying all of your Windows files over to the correct /home/? location on Linux. After they have confirmed that all is well, another script would delete the Windows partition and add it to the LInux

  • Slashdot reader I75BJC (Score:3)

    by fredrated ( 639554 ) on Saturday April 10, 2021 @09:10PM (#61259886) Journal

    got his knickers in a twist.

    • Slashdot reader is simply reminding everyone why Linux on Desktop is not a thing. Honestly I'm sure users would prefer to talk to an indian call centre AI on the Microsoft support forums that deal with a community that tells them to kindly fuck off.

      • Linux on the desktop assuredly is a thing, and has been for some time.

        It isn't popular on the desktop, which is what I think/hope you meant to say.

        Because it offers a great deal of choice, and that choice requires a certain amount of knowledge in order to navigate.

        But the success of Chromebooks (Linux on the laptop/notebook), and Android (Linux on the mobile device), do prove that Linux can power successful commercial products.

        Furthermore, we are rapidly moving toward a world in which most "apps" do

        • Linux on the desktop assuredly is a thing, and has been for some time.
          It isn't popular on the desktop, which is what I think/hope you meant to say.

          Yeah because "year of Linux on desktop" was just about being able to run on one machine and not about being popular. I guess that's another thing Microsoft's Indian Service AI bot has over the Linux community, they actually understand the point and they aren't all autistic.

          • I don't care about its popularity; I care whether it will do what I as a user want. For me, it does. If it doesn't for you, or for your Aunt Millie, there are other alternatives. Do what makes sense for you, and I'll do the same.

            BTW, I am autistic (Asperger's); that is a fact, and I don't take it as an insult even though you intended it as one. I am still usually able to figure out what people mean even when they don't communicate clearly, and/or in good faith, both of which seem to be a problem here.

            • I don't care about its popularity

              Then please find another thread to moan about your off topic point.

  • One thing is for certain (Score:3)

    by Provocateur ( 133110 ) <shedied@gmail . c om> on Saturday April 10, 2021 @09:49PM (#61259944) Homepage

    IBM makes COBOL compiler for x86...

    ARCH now comes with an installer.

    That's it. The world ends tomorrow. Don't bother packing.

    • The world alread ended a long time ago, my friend. :)

      Do you know how long it takes for people of some remote town to notice their country was conquered? In ye olden days, that might have taken years. ;)
      And a 100 ton dinosaur also took 6 months to cool down.

      2004 was roughly when the current tsunami of insanity started. Batshit SJWs, militant veganism, batshit libertarians and people glorifying being backwards and the anxiety epidemic, etc.

      Then again, it isn't exactly a world war. It's mostly anxiety over thi

  • required you to manually install it by entering a whole lot of scary commands in a terminal.

    It is not very novice-friendly, or user-friendly,

    a rather convoluted installation process,

    Users have been calling on Arch Linux for simplifying the installation process...to bring it in line with other Linux distros.

    Five minutes or less and off to the races, ready for Arch Linux.

    There was a time when learning something was not frowned upon, when the feared Slackware was actually one of the smoothest installs ever if you read at a third-grade level and just jumped in, and it didn't give you migraines like the dpkg screen. Or just lock up like Mandrake or Red Hat. There's probably a thousand live/dying/dead distros out there and most of them are on the same three teats, only the optics change. I suppose if you just want to "run Linux" and get the girls, fine. But by avoiding a little

    • Hey Slackware is still out there and actively maintained by the original author. The -current branch is more of a rolling release at this point.

      • Nothing is official until it is official, but the consensus seems to be that Patrick and the gang are moving into something like "pre-15". Very likely, at some point in the next year or so, -current will rename to -15

        For those who haven't used it in a while, installation is still fairly painless. In the context of this discussion, I should mention that "fairly painless" doesn't mean that it is is drool-proof. You still set up your disks manually, but after that it is mostly about accepting default choice

        • I fondly remember the excitement of copying Slackware onto a dozen or so 1.44MB floppies, then getting it to the point where it would run a GUI with a browser (primitive one at the time . . the Web was still somewhat new).

          In time I moved to Debian, then Red Hat (very briefly), then Mandrake, then Gentoo, probably around 2002-ish, and I've happily run Gentoo ever since.

          But Slackware was my first, and you never forget your first.

    • I suppose if you just want to "run Linux" and get the girls, fine.

      I already tried Debian, Ubuntu, Slackware, Crux, Arch, Gentoo, CentOS, Red Hat, Mandrake - what am I doing wrong?

    • Expecting "Ass" to hit the theaters any time now... ;)

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=... [youtube.com]

  • You meant like Config.cfg?

    That's a gui. A config file is just a GUI with no logic. It's just a shitty gui.

    And unlike a properly designed GUI you can't see what options are available.

    Database = filedb

    Ok that database config setting could be literally any string. What are the other options? Well since it's a shitty GUI aka a text editor sometimes the GUI will tell you.

    #Database options: filedb,smallsql,litedb
    Database=filedb

    But you know what works really well for choices? Drop down menus.

    If you pick litedb d

    • PROTIP:

      Any configuration file worth its existence has a comment block above it, that tells you what's available and what does what.

      Those commentless ones were auto-generated by some stupid GUI written by and for stupid people that didn't take care for keeping the configuratiom human-accessible.
      Dump it and clone the template one that came with the package. If that also lacks that, it was written by a clickmonkey too. In that case, have a man page in a second tile on the side to tell you what's available.

      You

  • One of the biggest problems with getting new linux users is picking the right distro. And for a new user to pick Arch as their first, could scare them off linux forever.

    • What would make a newbie decide that out of all the vastly easier distributions out there, Arch would be the best choice?

      I love Gentoo, but I wouldn't recommend that to a new user either.

      Why not Mint or Ubuntu??

  • Nothing beats Kickstart when you need to set up a few hundred/thousand computers.

  • Arch Linux is too hard to install (Score:3)

    by Elledan ( 582730 ) on Sunday April 11, 2021 @04:07AM (#61260358) Homepage
    I tried to install Arch Linux a few years ago for the first time, after hearing so many good things about it, and being an avid user of MSYS2 with the same pacman package manager when I'm on Windows.

    Long story short, I think that short of LFS I have never seen a distro require so much manual busy work as Arch does by default. Tedious things, things which have been automated or at least guided since I first used Linux (SuSE 6.3) back in '98. On that note, YAST for all its flaws along with the other tools in SuSE back then weren't bad at all for the time.

    I have since discovered Manjaro and now use it instead of Arch, as I like the ecosystem, but I don't have the time or inclination to mess about with details like setting up a correctly sized swap partition and parameters of the bootloader.

    • Go back to iOS then.

      Arch & co is for people who want the ability to make different choices. Where having it automatically run a default isn't gonna cut it.

      You are simply not the target group. You are a app user.
      The target group are computer users. People who write their own custom automation for that thing. Otherwise, Arch is simply the wrong choice.

      Like going to the kitchen and then complaining there is no cook. :)
      You're looking for a restaurant, mate! ;)

  • Is literacy to much for you? WTF?

    Stop spreading that stupidity-glorifying meme. It's the only thing keeping that mindet alive, and it always has been.

    CLIs were invented as an *easy to use interface for laypeople*. Nobody, not children, not employees, had a problem with it, 4 decades ago. It is not hard.

    A CLI's only hindrance is that it isn't discoverable.
    Which is exactly the same problem that Apple UIs have.
    (Do you know how long it took my grandma to find out how to write one of those characters that you ne

    • In the general case I'd have to agree, but a good CLI can be discoverable and self-documenting. It just doesn't tend to be by default. The developer needs to put some work into making it so.

  • Slashdot reader I75BJC's comment:

    If you can't type with the big adults, stay on your PlayStation.

    The only PlayStation that either isn't BSD based, or running a full BSD or at one time capable of running an official Linux release is the first one.

    I've used command lines AND GUI's on the PS2 and PS3. Some of my config files originate from my Linux on PS2 days. I can type with the big adults, but play my games on the PlayStation.

    • The only PlayStation that either isn't BSD based, or running a full BSD or at one time capable of running an official Linux release is the first one.

      All of a sudden, a PlayStation appears on the list of things I'll look at a second time in the second hand shop. I wonder what they look like.

  • I'm not a newbie but always had problems installing arch. To the point of having to either follow a guide or use something like endeavor OS. Back in the day slackware had a text installer and it wasn't a big deal. With arch you have to manually partition and format, which is fine, but then when it comes to installing packages there are all kinds of gotchas with what's available and what you actually need. End up with missing critical packages or stuff you don't want.

    It's a rolling release too so stuff like

  • I tried Arch for the first time recently. Tried to work though the UI knowing that a new UI can often be a challenge. I hit the 1 hour mark and deleted the VM. Too much pain.

  • "If you can't type with the big adults"...

    Yeah fuck off n00b you're not welcome here. Also why do people still run Windows, don't they know Linux on desktop is the superior!

  • Given a choice between providing education and providing automation, I prefer education every time, but I certainly don't mind both being available.

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