The Linux Team Approves New Neutral Terminology (zdnet.com) 522
An anonymous reader quotes ZDNet: Linus Torvalds approved on Friday a new and more inclusive terminology for the Linux kernel code and documentation. Going forward, Linux developers have been asked to use new terms for the master/slave and blacklist/whitelist terminologies...
The Linux team did not recommend any specific terms but asked developers to choose as appropriate. The new terms are to be used for new source code written for the Linux kernel and its associated documentation.
The older terms, considered inadequate now, will only be allowed for maintaining older code and documentation, or "when updating code for an existing (as of 2020) hardware or protocol specification that mandates those terms."
Proposed alternatives for master/slave include:
The Linux team did not recommend any specific terms but asked developers to choose as appropriate. The new terms are to be used for new source code written for the Linux kernel and its associated documentation.
The older terms, considered inadequate now, will only be allowed for maintaining older code and documentation, or "when updating code for an existing (as of 2020) hardware or protocol specification that mandates those terms."
Proposed alternatives for master/slave include:
- primary/secondary
- main/replica or subordinate
- initiator/target
- requester/responder
- controller/device
- host/worker or proxy
- leader/follower
- director/performer
Proposed alternatives for blacklist/whitelist include:
- denylist/allowlist
- blocklist/passlist
ask vs. tell (Score:5, Insightful)
"Going forward, Linux developers have been asked to use new terms for the master/slave and blacklist/whitelist terminologies..."
"Have been asked to" or "will be required to"?
Re:ask vs. tell (Score:5, Insightful)
The culture of the kernel follows from the importance of the code -
Out of the top 25 websites in the world, only 2 don't run Linux.
96.3% of the worldâ(TM)s top 1 million servers run on Linux.
90% of all cloud infrastructure operates on Linux
Which means code is expected to be written properly, that when you're changing the kernel you follow the coding guidelines for the kernel. You don't mix in your own preferences halfway through the file.
Code is reviewed several times by multiple people and off re-written quite a few times to get it just right. It may start off quite good, then be 20X better after it's locked back for changes 10 times.
It's very much not a "everybody does whatever they want" free-for-all and you won't hear any kernel devel say "eh, it's good enough". The kernel has standards and those apply across the kernel. Those standards demand top quality, and consistency.
When it's decided that the kernel is going to do things a certain way, you do it that way if you want to change the the kernel.
That's why while I'm credited in the kernel changelog, the actual patch for my change was written by Neil Brown, basws on my work. Because it would have taken me a year or two to learn all the little conventions of the kernel ans get them just right.
Re: ask vs. tell (Score:5, Funny)
Re:ask vs. tell (Score:5, Insightful)
>
code is expected to be written properly
Yep, it's a very black/white situation. No grey area.
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Re: ask vs. tell (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not racist language. It's entirely neutral and purely descriptive, having no basis in race theory or racism. People of every culture and race have used similar or identical terms and still do. The people seeking change are doing so because they relish exercising unaccountable power, and ignoramuses follow them and do their idiotic bidding.
Re: ask vs. tell (Score:4, Insightful)
Then ask yourself why you want to keep racist language in code
Just as soon as you ask yourself why do you think that a "whitelist/blacklist" is racist.
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Necro - Latin root - dead
Greek, not Latin. And I already said
after a medieval corruption of the Greek prefix
I thought it was clear enough. That corruption is definitely pre-1500. Quoth OED,
[a. OF. nygromancie (more commonly -mance: see necromance) = Sp. nigromancia, It. nigro-, negromanzia, med.L. nigromantia (1212 in Du Cange), an alteration, by association with L. niger, nigr-, black (cf. black art), of L. necromanta, ad. Gr. nekromanteia, f. nekro- necro- + manteia divination, prophecy. From c1550 the form necro- has been restored after Gr., as in F. nécromancie.
Cite me any text from the 1400's that uses the language "black magic".
Why would I do such a thing? I haven't said that "black magic" comes from the 1400s. If you believe that, go find it yourself.
Re:ask vs. tell (Score:4, Insightful)
>> That's why while I'm credited in the kernel changelog, the actual patch for my change was written by Neil Brown, based on my work. Because it would have taken me a year or two to learn all the little conventions of the kernel and get them just right.
> Yeah , not a hard change to make. ... ask yourself why you want to keep racist language in code. Then smack yourself in the face and stop making needless posts, you seemed smarter before this post.
Are you calling me a racist because I'm not accustomed to the kernel's variable naming convention?
If not, if you're trying to say something that involves an intelligent thought, perhaps you could rephrase and make your point clear. Otherwise, you might re-read that "you seemed smarter before this post" part to yourself a few times.
Re:ask vs. tell (Score:5, Interesting)
Has someone tried to go against all this yet?
Did they get told "You will comply" and "Resistance is futile"?
Kinda like a pull request with spaces instead of t (Score:5, Informative)
That would probably go about the same as submitting a PR with spaces instead of tabs for indents. You don't change lines in the kernel to match your personal preference, the let has a style standard which covers variable names, brace position, etc etc and the standard is followed in the kernel. The reply to a PR that isn't kernel-style will probably be a link to the docs and that's it.
That's assuming that it's not one of the top 8 or so maintainers trying to fight publicly about it. Even then, on matters of preference, Linus makes the call and that's pretty much that. He's also very much not a timid person who can be bullied into changing his decisions.
Keep a driver if *anyone* is using it. Why fight? (Score:3)
Yeah there is definitely a pragmatic part here.
I see this as similar to how before removing a hardware driver, he'll sometimes post a message asking if anyone knows of *anyone* still using it. If one person is using an old tape drive, removing the driver would be a problem for that person; keeping it doesn't harm anyone. So it stays, because the only person it matters to wants to keep it.
Here, some people are very bothered by "black list", nobody is harmed in any way by "block list", "deny list", etc. "I
Re:ask vs. tell (Score:5, Insightful)
I still haven't heard from anybody what we're supposed to call a greylist. To have a greylist you have to at the very least have an implied white and black, with grey being somewhere in between. Fuzzylist doesn't really work because greylists are usually pretty specific in what qualifies.
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Shall I follow green or purple leader [youtube.com]?
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Optimal (Score:2)
Elect/hominid
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But, ultimately, there's only This One. [youtube.com]
...and all the black people (Score:5, Insightful)
of the world joined hands and sang together in the spirit of harmony and peace.
Oh wait...no. No they didn't. That's because none of them give a single shit about what a bunch of white guys doing a virtue signalling circle jerk do with their software documentation.
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Slavery has happened every bit among and between white people as black. Race is irrelevant.
Race was often relevant. In America, white people could not be enslaved unless they had at least some black blood. An octoroon slave may look white but was legally black.
When the Confederate Army invaded the North, during both the Antietam and Gettysburg campaigns, they seized black citizens and sent them south into slavery solely because of their race and regardless of their legal status.
Re:...and all the black people (Score:5, Informative)
In America, white people could not be enslaved unless they had at least some black blood.
False [tandfonline.com].
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Re:...and all the black people (Score:4, Informative)
It says that some slaves were mostly white.
Bullshit. Which line on that page says that? It doesn't even suggest what you claim. You're making stuff up. What it does say is that
In common parlance, as well as in law, antebellum Americans were usually categorized by only two racial groups: black and white
Further, what it states that
While all blacks were not slaves, neither were all whites free.
There were white slaves in the US. There were black slaveowners in the US.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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You would do well to familiarize yourself with the plight of Italians and Irish who came to the United States.
I am not sure what you are referring to. Could you please clarify?
Indentured servitude was usually a result of a voluntarily signed contract, and it is a real stretch to call that "slavery". It was certainly nothing like the hereditary slavery experienced in America by Africans.
Indentured servitude was rare in America by the early 1800s and effectively banned in the 1830s. Most Irish and nearly all Italian immigrants arrived after that.
Immigrants experienced discrimination and were poorly paid for hard w
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Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Yes, a Court of Law could legally, per the Constitution, sentence someone to slavery.
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Re:...and all the black people (Score:4, Informative)
Africans are still too busy buying and selling each other into slavery to care about virtue signaling nonsense like this. It's always happened in Africa, it still happens there, and there is no end in sight.
The fact that *some* white people from a few select areas once bought their product, then abolished the practice amongst themselves, hasn't dampened the fact that slavery is endemic to African society.
"On any given day in 2016, an estimated 9.2 million men, women, and children were living in modern slavery in Africa..."
https://www.globalslaveryindex... [globalslaveryindex.org]
Please, make it stop. (Score:5, Insightful)
This is symbolic bullshit that panders to the crazy left. This doesn't stop violence in Chicago, prevent police abuse in Minneapolis, or ensure that children are able to eat. (Big proiblems these days.) No, this is a stupid idea that makes code harder to maintain.
Somebody, please, stop with whitewashing, err brainwashing.
Re:Please, make it stop. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Please, make it stop. (Score:5, Interesting)
Look up "Critical Theory", "Cultural Marxism", and "ideological subversion". Everything these people do that seems insane makes sense after that. Instead of insane, you'll understand that it's just evil.
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You people in your twitter threads and reddit subs sound just like insane medieval peasant mobs getting ready to burn witches.
That's because a good number of them are getting ready to do just that.
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That's because one person said "go and look up cultural marxism for more info" and another person said "Shutup nazi!"
One is an ad hominem rebuttal, the other is a person suggesting people educate themselves about something.
What's interesting is how you didn't notice this difference.
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Its not about fixing anything its about people asserting dominance over others.
The terms "blacklist/whitelist" and "master/slave" in this context are not about people asserting dominance over others.
It's annoying to people so we change it, but we aren't changing it because the words asserted dominance over anyone.
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Your right, it does not stop the violence in chicago at this time.
BUT
it might over time, reduce the negative notions and bring some evolution to the mindset.
might be 50 years from now, but ever step in the right direction is better than it was before
also I happen to like Primary / Secondary more binary thinking less guessing.
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it might over time, reduce the negative notions and bring some evolution to the mindset.
Since it's inception, the word "fuck" has been lambasted at being uncivilized. People decree that, to use it, shows a lack of intelligence. Yet, it is still within our colloquial language. If you believe that this neutral language will somehow bring about an evolution to the mindset of people, then you truly are naive.
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Somebody, please, stop with whitewashing, err brainwashing.
We probably have to wait until all these morons have virtue signaled enough for sanity to return. That may take quite a while.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
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I agree. Changing blacklist to denylist will not solve any racial problems. It's starting to sound like a Monty Python skit.
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It doesn't do anything more than make self-loathing whites feel a little better about themselves. That's literally it.
Half agree. (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think this makes code harder to maintain. The terms denylist/allowlist are more descriptive, which is always a win. The other terms may be more descriptive or equivalently-descriptive, depending on context. So long as they are sufficiently descriptive, then the code is not harder to maintain.
Further, when using these new terms, the issue is neutered. Nobody will be hurt by these neutral terms, there will be no awkward moments in conversations that include them, any issue that might have been caused by the old terms, however minute or petty, has been completely removed. It keeps conversations about tech focused on the relevant issues without any social speed bumps, so it is a win there, too.
I agree that this does nothing to stop violence, racism, poverty, etc. But it isn't intended to solve those problems. It is intended to solve the simple problem that the old terms presented, and it succeeds.
Done. Next.
Re:Please, make it stop. (Score:4, Insightful)
It's called empathy, it's called not being an asshole, and it's a good thing.
I don't know your background NuttyBee, but I do know that there are terms that could have arisen other than master/slave that you would find offensive and demand be changed, and for good reason. Oh, you can't think of any? I'm thinking I could come up with some that would infuriate you. It's almost too easy. If those had arisen through an accident of Computer Science history, then you'd demand they be changed and you'd be right.
We can't make the world perfectly pleasant for everybody, nor should we try. But do you genuinely believe that it's better to *gratuitously* bandy about *slavery* as if it's completely *trivial*? Are you really not capable of seeing what we can do a little better? And at essentially zero cost! Yes somehow, this is an outrage to you.
The amazing thing is that if you had a black guest in your home, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't just throw around the words "master" and "slave" when there were other words you could use -- you'd be too polite to do that. Aren't you?
Re:Please, make it stop. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure Primary and Secondary are perfectly fine synonyms that could have been used instead, but they weren't..
Of course primary primary, primary secondary, secondary primary and secondary secondary would have never confused anyone had they been used instead.
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Re:Please, make it stop. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Please, make it stop. (Score:4, Insightful)
Bwahaha! Funny, but this is how many of the cleverer super-rich actually think. Make symbolic concessions, but keep the little people at each other's throats over racist nonsense so they don't unite against the ownership class, and keep the minority underclass around for cheap labor and to apply economic pressure to the middle class.
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The content of the comments under this article proves you wrong. You, personally, are screaming and throwing a tantrum because things are changing. You and a lot of others, none of whom appear to actually contribute code to the Linux kernel.
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"My side"?
Rioting and protests caused the Linux kernel team to decide to change the terminology?
Sorry, I'm not in the habit of debating things with delusional people. You're a half dozen posts into your temper tantrum and simply proving me right.
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Strange, it looks like your sig is appropriate.
Ya know, for decades colourblindness was a thing and it was working pretty well, you know the stance of a particular person, well I won't name him because SJW's have decided he's a racist and white supremacist for his views(funny he was black though). Then came along the SJW's who started crying. Then they started crying oppression for other people who didn't ask for their help.
Then they started destroying history, statues, and so-on.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Colorblindness doesn't cut it anymore. It's babby's first attempt at not being a frothing racist asshole - it's better than active racism, but that's all. Colorblindness is racism-blindness for insufficiently blatant forms of racism.
Sure it does. Treating everyone the same irregardless of their skin colour is the best thing possible, because it then becomes a merit race. The fact that groups like BLM and their supporters are now in favor of race based actions says far more about them.
The only real history serve to tell is that for so long after the end of the civil war, people were still butthurt and racist enough to want to make giant stone middle fingers to the end of slavery.
Well you've managed to fail to learn even the most basic things that intellectual and cultural purges in communist countries went through too. Statues and monuments remind us of both the good and bad, that's why they're important.
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And you've provided an excellent example of how a sufficiently advanced level of colorblind stupidity plays perfectly into racists' hands, equating anti-racism with racism because they're both aware of race, while colorblindness pretends it doesn't exist, claiming to be against racism while sitting out the fight and passively enabling racism through inaction, lack of awareness, and quietly shrouding white privilege from acknowledgement and examination.
In today's world, a colorblind person cannot be part of
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Because it already exists as a framework of reference. A whole bunch of devices have used that phrasing for ages.
Now, if you were starting from scratch, sure, call it what you will. I suspect nobody would really care overly much. However, when you go and decide to change an existing framework of reference, that's getting into the realms of silly.
1984 had lots of passages concerning the rewriting of existing phrases and contexts. It seems to be a how-to manual these days, rather than a dystopian warning.
Re: Please, make it stop. (Score:4, Informative)
"If thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought." --George Orwell
1984 is meant to be a warning, not an instruction manual.
GP's quote is not from Nineteen Eighty-Four, but from Politics and the English Language.
How about Dom/Sub? (Score:3)
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Have they tried Master/Servant?
Who says these are neutral terms? (Score:2)
Did Anyone Check It Bothered Minorities? (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm all for changing words if they make minorities uncomfortable, feel unwelcome etc... For instance, the Redskins was a name that clearly bothered many native Americans so it needed to go.
But did anyone actually check that this was something that actually made black programmers feel uncomfortable or unwelcome? Say, perform a survey or something or informally talk to your average everyday black programmer (meaning a coder not someone who has a political or activist motivation) and see if this was botherin
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I'd note that checking doesn't consist of responding to a letter or statement by a person or two. You can always find someone who believes anything (e.g. almost no one women find the word history offensive but that doesn't mean there aren't a few who claim it's oppressive..despite the latin etymology) but it means something like asking, say, black CS professors (even if it's only a few), running a survey at a conference or polling acquaintances. In other words, some measure that at least suggests it's som
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Why bother? Why not just look at why the terms were used?
Blacklist, whitelist - it's certainly not because the lists themselves have that color - a list on a computer can't have any color at all, so the names are not descriptive (unlike black coffee, for example).
The names are chosen because black has negative connotations and white has positive connotations. Why reinforce that kind of thinking? The cost of change here is trivial. Even if the benefit is no more than trivial, it's still worth it. Even i
Thank you, Linus (Score:2, Insightful)
It is heartening to see that even a famously abrasive curmudgeon can have the wisdom to evolve in leadership.
What if I'm a Communist (Score:2)
Deliverables (Score:4)
politically correct proposal (Score:2)
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WTF (Score:2)
Seriously, WTF? Master and slave were words before slavery. And throughout history there have been slaves of every race and culture. Anyone the Romans conquered, which at last count, was essentially everyone at one point. White and black have been used as metaphors for good and bad far before there were racial connotations to it. This is a step in the wrong direction. This is making racial issues where none existed. We need a world where white and black (or any other shade of) skin don't matter, and
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Master and slave were words before slavery.
Not really.
First world problems (Score:2)
This pandering is nothing more than virtue signaling to the woke. Itâ(TM)s time stop virtue signaling and focus on things that actually matter. I canâ(TM)t think of anything that better represents a first world problem then this.
These terms have been in use for a long time and do not have a history rooted in racism. Take the word blacklist and start by googling that for yourself. What I really recommend is that you have a linguist explain the history of it to you.
Context is everything and these wo
Why so much scorn for voluntary change? (Score:3, Insightful)
Linus Torvalds is one of the most important human beings in the world. I am confident he has many more important things on his mind than arguing with SJWs or retaining stupid inarticulate terms for those who think they're oppressed by anyone with more liberal views than they hold. Catering to anyone's stupid sensibilities would be the last thing on my mind if I was in his shoes.
If this bothers you, I suggest you really ponder why. Why does it matter that others voluntarily change with the times? No one is forcing you to. People are choosing to of their own accord. Maybe they just think it's a stupid term for a professional organization to use silly terms like master/slave. IMO, it's not even a very articulate or descriptive term. However, it doesn't really matter why. Why do they deserve your scorn? Why do they not have the freedom to voluntarily change labels for whatever reason they see fit?
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Linus used to oppose this stuff, but he's eventually been bullied into submission. Remember that if you opposite anything like this you can and will most likely be fired. If you are very vocal you will lose access to all banks and most media as well. People will march to your house with actual death threats. Linus is a high profile figure.
Time to look outside your little bubble.
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People are freaking out that an organization voluntarily chose to change older terms to more modern equivalents.
It's not really voluntary.
Well, how much do they pay... (Score:2)
For people to sweep through the entire code base correcting the evil etc?
Thank God (Score:2, Funny)
We've finally solved racism through meaningless gestures.
Please remove the following (Score:2)
Sanity list
True
False
Assert
Unit test passing
Unit test failing
Validation
Bus
These are also offensive
Which text editor to read this (Score:2)
Hello Linux community. To read these new gender and political correct liberal termologies I have to ask which text editor should I use? Vim or Emacs?
Better offended than bored (Score:4, Interesting)
I miss "better offended than bored" Linus: https://lkml.org/lkml/1996/7/2... [lkml.org] ... modern Linus is just... not the same.
Blacklist is not racism (Score:3)
There is no connection between the term "blacklist" and black skin and pretending there is is a sign of deep stupidity.
You see, what happens is that at night the sun goes down and it gets dark (try to follow along). Darkness means that it's hard to see things that want to kill you. So darkness is negative. Then the sun comes up and, hooray, you can see better. So light is good. In terms of lighting.
Context is a real thing, and it really matters.
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Re:Stupid (Score:5, Funny)
Another reason to quit using Linux.
You could fork FreeBSD and create SlaveBSD.
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While funny this is true ...
I'm surprised that it's not done yet
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With a greylist, you never really know where the members stand [youtube.com]. It sickens me.
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The new list
Spanker/Spankee
Mask Wearer/Punishment Receiver
Leader/Follower
Main/Subordinate
Initiator/Target
Responder/Requester
Controller/Controlled
Host/Worker
Leader/Follower
Director/Performer
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That's making the rather large assumption that the slaves will be black, and the owners will be white.
Not a viable long-term metaphysical proposition.
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One is good one is bad
But
This One is mine
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Indeed.
"Don't you know the Old Testament is full of killing off of opposing cultures and slavery?"
"Sounds more like your worldview's problem than mine."
But then, I also accept evolution. Of the theistic variety.
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Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."
--Thomas 7
Sums both up rather nicely.
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I think this sums it best [ssl-images-amazon.com].
Re: Vote Democrat (Score:2)
Not sure why you're voted +5 informative instead of -1 troll or -1 off topic but how does voting for the corrupt incompetent Trump who is destroying America help Linux licensing terms?
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Yes, by all means. Remember, it's democrats and their sycophants who openly support this. It wasn't the 'right' who destroyed the statue of Fredrick Douglass. [nypost.com] Or desecrated or destroyed statues of abolitionists. Or of people who fought against slavery. Isn't it so strange, that no top democrat has spoken against these things? Yes indeed...it's sure reminding me of the history of purges in Maoist China, and Soviet Russia though.
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Re: I'm sure this will do a lot (Score:4, Insightful)
Itâ(TM)s called China town.
Itâ(TM)s ridiculous to think shitty conditions and being poor means crime
Re: I'm sure this will do a lot (Score:5, Interesting)
Have you looked up the crime and murder stats in Appalachia?
Few are poorer than those folks. The only crime going on there is drug over doses/addiction to fentanyl. We can thank for Chinese friends for producing so much for us.
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