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EU Government Microsoft Open Source Linux

Microsoft Dropped for Open Source Again in Germany: Hamburg Follows Munich's Lead (zdnet.com) 88

Posted by EditorDavid from the being-what's-next dept.
"The trend towards open-source software on government computers is gathering pace in Germany," reports ZDNet: In the latest development, during coalition negotiations in the city-state of Hamburg, politicians have declared they are ready to start moving its civil service software away from Microsoft and towards open-source alternatives. The declaration comes as part of a 200-page coalition agreement between the Social Democratic and Green parties, which will define how Hamburg is run for the next five years. It was presented on Tuesday but has yet to be signed off. The political parties in charge in Hamburg are the same as those in Munich, who recently agreed to revert back to that city's own open-source software.

"With this decision, Hamburg joins a growing number of German states and municipalities that have already embarked on this path," said Peter Ganten, chairman of the Open Source Business Alliance, or OSBA, based in Stuttgart. He's referring to similar decisions made in Schleswig-Holstein, Thuringia, Bremen, Dortmund, and Munich. But, he adds: "The Hamburg decision is nevertheless remarkable because the city has always been more aggressively oriented towards Microsoft.

"In the future we will aim to have more open-source software in digital management [systems] and we also want to develop our own code, which will remain open," the head of the local Hamburg-Mitte branch of the Greens, Farid Mueller, wrote on his website. Hamburg wants to be a leading example of digital independence, he stated.
The article also adds a final interesting detail. A Microsoft spokeperson told a Germany technology site "that the company didn't see the desire for more open-source software as an attack on itself. Microsoft now also uses and develops a lot of open source and welcomed fair competition, the spokesperson added."
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Microsoft Dropped for Open Source Again in Germany: Hamburg Follows Munich's Lead More

Microsoft Dropped for Open Source Again in Germany: Hamburg Follows Munich's Lead

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  • Good (Score:3)

    by Dutch Gun ( 899105 ) on Saturday June 06, 2020 @10:39PM (#60154932)

    I'm glad to see common sense is...

    The city-state authorities would also develop their own versions of artificial intelligence. But this too must remain open, Mueller said in an interview in late May after coalition negotiations. "[Everybody,] from civil servants to the general public, needs to know how AI functions," he argued.

    Goddammit.

    • Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)

      by rtb61 ( 674572 ) on Sunday June 07, 2020 @12:20AM (#60155090) Homepage

      Hot on all those people's brains is when the US government cut off a country from technology they had already bought, this not for political reasons but economic competition. US tech, hardware, software and internet are all now a threat to the economies of all of the countries in the world except the USA. Hence all countries will cut themselves off from US tech dominance before the US threatens and does it to them at extremely damaging economy times, simply too much of a threat to tolerate and hence, the sound decision made, eliminate the threat by switching to FOSS where ever possible and develop the internal technology to code FOSS to control and maintain their own distribution, which NO ONE can ever cut them off (it becomes really cheap for Germany with China investing so much in FOSS code).

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Hopefully with government backing we can finally make the transition easy for people. As an individual it's hard just to deal with people sending you Word documents that don't open properly on LibreOffice (or any version of Word except the one they used to make it), but if the government decides that ODF is the standard then it's big enough for others to conform to it.

      • Bravo, I draw the same conclusions.

    • There's nothing common sense about governments flip flopping on their IT infrastructure every 10 minutes, nor is there common sense spending money to attempt to replicate some cutting edge technology yourself.

      This is an insane waste of money and woefully inefficient. Any cost savings gained by not paying MS a fee are offset by the incredible cost of switching existing systems. The only thing dumber than this is that they moved *to* MS in the first place.

      • The strategic hazard of having a lot of your infrastructure powered by organs of a potential enemy state is obvious. What is sauce for the debate over Huawei is seasoning for cutting American tech companies out of domestic (to us) markets too.

  • The lack of protest is very telling. Obviously, MS is now a cloud business, maintaining an OS of their own is just a waste of money.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gtall ( 79522 )

      MS would only make a dog's breakfast out of such an star-crossed combination.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by gweihir ( 88907 )

        MS would only make a dog's breakfast out of such an star-crossed combination.

        There is nothing star-crossed about this. The actual kernel APIs are already not that different. What is below that API is just vastly superior on Linux than on Windows. Just regarding filesystems, MS is so far behind (and failed time and again to make something better work), it is staggering. Other areas are not better.

  • Linux is just the OS (Score:5, Informative)

    by BringsApples ( 3418089 ) on Saturday June 06, 2020 @11:37PM (#60155024)

    I run Slackware Linux at home. Since I'm now working from home only, I have to use:

    MS Teams
    Chrome
    Teamviewer
    MS Headset
    Logi Webcam
    Zoom
    Lexmark MS417dn Printer
    Gmail
    Everything else that I use is all web-based, so I use a healthy mixture of Firefox and Chromium.

    Even for Slackware, all of this installs extremely easily, and runs very smoothly. I'm willing to bet that this would also be the same for a mac, I could be wrong. In today's world, what else do you need? Who gives a shit about the OS anymore now that everything works fine in the Linux environment? I do know that the OS that I use is free, and I pay nothing for users or licenses for terminal server users, or ANY of the god-aweful mess that is the Windows OS. I can set it as any server type that I need. The company that I work for could save millions each year if they used only open-source operating systems.

    At this point, MS is holding on by their new hope in the Azure environment (and the gaming community, but this is slowly changing). What I've seen, it's got some major bugs, as does everything else. It's just that with cloud computing, all of your eggs are in that one basket, so bugs are more problematic.

    • I am working from home and have all of that on my personal Macbook, because the audio and video quality is terrible on my company Windows notebook.

    • I've found that the only software I actually need for work that doesn't run on any modern LInux distribution would be Visio for diagramming. That's because work requires diagrams to be Visio files and nothing can import/export those except Visio. This even causes a problem on my work-issued Macbook Pro because there's no version of Visio for the Mac.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by sxpert ( 139117 )

        just run visio on a windows vm on any linux box

        • I could, but work-issued laptop remember? One, the Support department didn't install a Windows VM setup on it, so per corporate policy I'm not supposed to be installing one myself. Two, MacOS doesn't come with a Windows 10 Pro key (that's the version of Windows spec'd by the company for use on company equipment) so how am I supposed to legally run a copy of Windows in a VM for any length of time?

          I know there's all sorts of ways around those issues, but all of them involve violating one or more bits of compa

    • Re:Linux is just the OS (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Voyager529 ( 1363959 ) <voyager529@yahoo. c o m> on Sunday June 07, 2020 @12:52AM (#60155140)

      I've thought about this for some time...but essentially in the reverse.

      You're right, a whole lot of people's needs can be adequately met with class compliant hardware drivers, a web browser, and a chat client (the latter commonly redundant of the former).

      Half of me wants to trot out my usual argument of niche applications that only run on Windows (Serato DJ and Quickbooks being my go-to examples before hitting doctor's offices, dental offices, auto mechanics, and law firms), but that's not what's got me scratching my head.

      As more and more stuff ends up being either SaaS or IaaS with a browser-based frontend, and we abstract more and more away from locally installed applications and do more and more in Teh Cloud(tm) and mobile appy-apps, it makes me a bit nervous that Linux on the Desktop becomes both more viable and less appealing at the same time, as we end up with a broken hallelujah.

      Of what virtue is it to have a ground-up, open source computer, running nothing but GPL code from the BIOS to the browser, if the machine is dependent on the cloud for any meaningful amount of utility? Of what virtue is it to have a salesman walking around with a System76 laptop running on a ground-up compiled copy of Slackware, running Chromium and only FLOSS drivers...if all of the actual data and functionality is in Salesforce? How useful is a tablet running LineageOS running only apps from F-Droid, if the bookkeeper's financial data can't live on that tablet or in a self-hosted Nextcloud instance, instead relying on a subscription to Xero? Even if one argues that both of these products allow for CSV export which helps users keep a modicum of control on their data, how is such a setup not a functional betrayal of the idea of Free Software if neither service allow users to edit or distribute the code which leverages that data?

      Linux on the Desktop wasn't viable for the longest time, primarily because of the absence of cross-compatible software for the OS. As LibreOffice and web browsers get better and better, while hardware gets less bespoke and more class compliant, LotD becomes more and more practical. At the same time, "everything in a web browser which minimizes software compatibilty issues" paradoxically makes LotD less compelling. With the OS being abstracted away, the worst parts of Windows are largely avoided, making its continued use feel no worse than making a switch. The fact that software is primarily accessible because it's delivered in a way that makes sure you'll never see its source code (or even its binaries) means that the principled underpinnings of Free Software are basically as abstracted away as the OS itself.

      I've deployed Linux workstations in a handful of locations where it's made sense, but I think the push toward Cloud Computing/SaaS/IaaS has minimized the importance of Free Software, rather than maximizing it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we should be trying to swing the pendulum back to locally installed applications and data storage at the exclusion of some of the advantages that cloud computing brings to the table...but I *am* saying that SaaS companies like Xero accommodating Linux use by making their software work in a web browser without allowing users to peruse the source code and/or compile their own instance doesn't make OSS more appealing. It just means that Windows can run Firefox as well as Linux distros can, making Linux an even tougher sell.

      • It just means that Windows can run Firefox as well as Linux distros can, making Linux an even tougher sell.

        The explosion in use of Chromebooks runs counter to this argument.

      • With the OS being abstracted away, the worst parts of Windows are largely avoided, making its continued use feel no worse than making a switch.

        That'd be a valid point, if it weren't for the costs associated with the microsoft dance that aren't there AT ALL in the linux dance.

      • You're not wrong about any of this. I think the answer is that Free software *also* matters when it comes to web-hosted services. Free software web services are still good and closed proprietary web services are still bad. If the battle for freedom moves more in the domain of web services, so be it. Clueless people will continue to pick bad proprietary things and there will still be good Free web services that people like you and I will seek out. This could mean more people choose a Free OS over a proprieta

      • "As more and more stuff ends up being either SaaS or IaaS with a browser-based frontend, and we abstract more and more away from locally installed applications and do more and more in Teh Cloud(tm) and mobile appy-apps, it makes me a bit nervous that Linux on the Desktop becomes both more viable and less appealing at the same time, as we end up with a broken hallelujah."

        The lack of viability is what makes it unappealing. Everything else about it is superior. If cloud apps make it more viable then they also

  • I don't think that the decision to pick Microsoft or open-source software is all that damaging either way. But switching back and forth and back and forth- which they have now done - has to be pretty destructive to productivity.

    • This is Hamburg, not Munich. Different part of Germany.

  • looking for another payoff to stick with Microsoft to me.

    Just my 2 cents ;)

    • Fair chance of that. It won't work at the moment though because Microsoft has to put up a good show. Their long running business plan and motto: Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. They have to show the world that they've Embraced [in this case, like Vampire, the Masquerade] Linux and open source. To convince people, they have to not fight changeovers like this. Microsoft has already begun work on the Extend phase. Adding their own package manager (even if it was a direct ripoff of another one, Powershell t

      • Re:Looks like someone is (Score:5, Insightful)

        by ctilsie242 ( 4841247 ) on Sunday June 07, 2020 @01:55AM (#60155226)

        The goal is different now, that they have the second biggest cloud provider. It doesn't matter to them what OS someone runs, as long as it runs on their cloud service. To them, Linux VMs are just as good. Because of this, we are seeing WSL2, Windows Terminal, SSH, and other tools that historically were not really in the MS ecosystem.

        Their goal is not to extinguish, but to get it running as a service in Azure.

  • From the currently imploding US.

    BTW: The whole world wishes you all the best, currently, dear America. Ignore the few assholes. They are loud, precisely because they do not speak for the majority.
    We're not sure you want the same best as we do, though. :)

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

      If that was true, that would be done on nation state level, not city level. This isn't even about the region. It's just a city.

      • Almost sounds convincing, what are they doing, don't they know there is proper channels?!?
        Except I happen to know Hamburg is it's own federal state so you just sound like a chump.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

          Certainly. But you're barking about an argument I never made. All stated is that it's not a region.

          And there are no "proper channels" for doing something like this. What would "proper channels" even look like? The point I'm making is that it's fairly easy to move a single city politics for ideological purposes, and it's equally easy to shift it in the other direction. As we have seen in the past.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by gtall ( 79522 )

      Last we checked, the U.S. was exporting the feeling that vicious police action needs to stop. This won't be welcome news for Putin and Chinese Communist Party who premise their political control on the willingness to kill off parts of their population.

  • Is there a list of the software they are planning to use or are using in Munich? For example, what do they use for digitally signing PDF files generated by e.g. LibreOffice?

  • They do this whenever it's time to renegotiate the contract.

  • After Effect (Score:3)

    by MrKaos ( 858439 ) on Sunday June 07, 2020 @02:11AM (#60155248) Journal

    I feel so dirty when ever I read something Microsoft has to say about Linux, like it's soiled Linux.

    It could have something to do with the years of them saying Open Source is a cancer, or SCO, or something else. Now it seems like they want to make as much money out of the efforts of Open Source contributors as they can.

    • "Now it seems like they want to make as much money out of the efforts of Open Source contributors as they can."

      As long as copyright law isn't perverted even more than the endless extensions have already done, their attempts to do so can only benefit us all in the long run.

      If developers want to make this especially true, they should use the GPLv3, as opposed to licenses with lesser requirements. Microsoft has used plenty of OSS in the past without having to present their sources, to no benefit to the communi

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by MrKaos ( 858439 )

        As long as copyright law isn't perverted even more than the endless extensions have already done, their attempts to do so can only benefit us all in the long run.

        I know, it's just the way they've behaved in the past. It's unlikely they will behave any differently.

        If developers want to make this especially true, they should use the GPLv3, as opposed to licenses with lesser requirements.

        For sure.

        Microsoft has used plenty of OSS in the past without having to present their sources, to no benefit to the community (like when they used BSD's network stack.)

        Oh yeah, I forgotten about that one.

        They can't play the same game with GPL code. And we've seen them make contributions back to GPL projects like the Linux kernel. They wouldn't have done that if they didn't have to.

        I don't expect Microsoft to play any game in law where they haven't planned to completely take over. I think there are a lot of good reasons to be wary.

  • A Microsoft spokeperson told a Germany technology site "that the company didn't see the desire for more open-source software as an attack on itself.

    Extend.

    Microsoft now also uses and develops a lot of open source...

    Embrace.

    ...and welcomed fair competition.

    Extinguish. Coming shortly. Stay tuned.

    E

  • Public money, public code. (Score:4, Informative)

    by Qbertino ( 265505 ) <moiraNO@SPAMmodparlor.com> on Sunday June 07, 2020 @05:28AM (#60155466)

    Oeffentliches Geld, oeffentlicher code.

    Best catch-phrase ever to get even the most non-computer-affine German politician on board with FOSS.
    Nice, I like it.

    • Are all machines, cars, etc. bought with German public money going to automatically become public domain too? Can I get complete designs and software for BMW, Merc, Siemens, Bosch designs and copy them without paying a dime in royalties to any of the aforementioned companies (they'd be open source, any modifications I would make would be too)? Heck, forget hardware, can I just sell copies of German industrial software, or software upgrades for German cars? Or are the German taxpayers planning to never buy a

  • Take a small fraction of the license fees paid for msft and pay maintainers? But, obviously, we'd want to know why Germany left OSS and went back to msft. If those fundamental reasons didn't change, then... Tho if this is actually just "America bad" then sure. But that's gonna be a long list of stuff Germany will need to wean themselves from.

  • I seem to remember this happening at least once before, but they switched back to Microsoft after a few years.

    But hey, who knows? Maybe this time, it really will be the year of Linux on the desktop.

  • How much money are they wasting switching back and forth between MS and open source? If it was just the once it wouldn't be a big deal, but this is at least the third time they've made the switch and there must be a lot of costs involved. Especially if they're writing and maintaining their own code.

    Is the motivation for the change technical or ideological? It seems unlikely that it is at all financial. It doesn't seem likely that it is technical either, as what IT department wants to completely repla

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