The New Yorker on Linus Torvalds (newyorker.com) 663
Linus Torvalds announced on Sunday that he was sorry for how he treated the community over the years. Torvalds, 48, said he planned to make some changes to how he conducted himself, and on that part, he said he would be taking some time off from Linux kernel development work. The New Yorker has published a story on Torvalds today in which it notes that it reached out to Torvalds days before he made the big announcement. From the story, which may be paywalled for some readers: Torvalds's decision to step aside came after The New Yorker asked him a series of questions about his conduct for a story on complaints about his abusive behavior discouraging women from working as Linux-kernel programmers. In a response to The New Yorker, Torvalds said, "I am very proud of the Linux code that I invented and the impact it has had on the world. I am not, however, always proud of my inability to communicate well with others -- this is a lifelong struggle for me. To anyone whose feelings I have hurt, I am deeply sorry."
Torvalds's response was conveyed by the Linux Foundation, which supports Linux and other open-source programming projects and paid Torvalds $1.6 million in annual compensation as of 2016. The foundation said that it supported his decision and has encouraged women to participate but that it has little control over how Torvalds runs the coding process. "We are able to have varying degrees of impact on these outcomes in newer projects," the statement said. "Older more established efforts like the Linux kernel are much more challenging to influence."
Linux's elite developers, who are overwhelmingly male, tend to share their leader's aggressive self-confidence. There are very few women among the most prolific contributors, though the foundation and researchers estimate that roughly ten per cent of all Linux coders are women. "Everyone in tech knows about it, but Linus gets a pass," Megan Squire, a computer-science professor at Elon University, told me, referring to Torvalds's abusive behavior. "He's built up this cult of personality, this cult of importance."
Torvalds's response was conveyed by the Linux Foundation, which supports Linux and other open-source programming projects and paid Torvalds $1.6 million in annual compensation as of 2016. The foundation said that it supported his decision and has encouraged women to participate but that it has little control over how Torvalds runs the coding process. "We are able to have varying degrees of impact on these outcomes in newer projects," the statement said. "Older more established efforts like the Linux kernel are much more challenging to influence."
Linux's elite developers, who are overwhelmingly male, tend to share their leader's aggressive self-confidence. There are very few women among the most prolific contributors, though the foundation and researchers estimate that roughly ten per cent of all Linux coders are women. "Everyone in tech knows about it, but Linus gets a pass," Megan Squire, a computer-science professor at Elon University, told me, referring to Torvalds's abusive behavior. "He's built up this cult of personality, this cult of importance."
Shoes and Gravity (Score:5, Insightful)
I've had a personal epiphany
oh yeah and there may possibly also be a story about me and this subject coming out in a major publication in a few days too
Re:BUT 1.6 million? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you're confusing non-profit and charity. Non-profit simply means that it doesn't have a legal obligation to maximize profits for its shareholders.
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Possibly. I've never been sure why I show up at +3. At first I thought it was an account issue too. I sent email to get it fix and it never was. I figured I would just keep posting at +3, as much as I post, I figured someone would notice and it would be fixed. That was 2 years ago.
Other people have reported it but I'm still posting at +3. So ether its on purpose or they can't figure out how to fix it. But once a few weeks ago I was posting at +2 like normal people. That went on for a couple hours
Why do tech-bros love antisocial behavior? (Score:2, Insightful)
I work in medicine, and while many fail at empathy, at least there is a focus on it.
Re:Why do tech-bros love antisocial behavior? (Score:5, Insightful)
Being arrogant makes you more likely to do something big.
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Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Depends on who you ask (Score:5, Insightful)
Plenty of people out there see any sort of strong self-confidence as "jerk behavior." In fact the more insecure the individual, the more hopelessly assholeish your confidence will appear to them.
You can please some of the people, all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you simply cannot please all the people all the time. Wise people don't waste effort trying.
I understand folks may not like me, but I don't make a point to cultivate dislike, neither do I actively avoid offending others at the expense of the my morals, ethics. I'm more concerned about other's best interests than having them like what I do or say. So if they don't like me, that's their issue, not mine. Some consider me an AssHat, many don't. It's up to them, it matters not to me.
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Thanks to CoCs we have to (Score:5, Insightful)
That was before the age of Codes of Conduct. Now the squeaky wheel not only gets the grease, but gets the presumption of wrongdoing on your part because they were ever squeaking in the first place.
It's a lesson to everyone: bullying works.
Expect the bullying to ramp up in the coming months.
Re:Depends on who you ask (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, some people you don't please some of the time will step forward and demand your dismissal due to your "toxic attitude".
Some people demand to be pleased all the time.
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Unfortunately, some people you don't please some of the time will step forward and demand your dismissal due to your "toxic attitude".
Some people demand to be pleased all the time.
LOL.. Yes, the real asshats do make such demands. I was raised by a stepfather who was EXACTLY like this, narcissist all the way, so I know how to deal with such folks. I don't let them bother me or if I cannot do that, I just walk away and let them bury themselves and/or work around them as best I can. If management sees my "live and let live" credo as a "toxic attitude" then I really don't want to be working for said company so I'll just get another job.
However, I've only had one instance where I've h
Re:Depends on who you ask (Score:4, Insightful)
Too bad you sometimes can't even refuse to play the game.
Take Ninja, a Twitch gaming streamer. Popular, absolutely apolitical, flawless reputation. Recently, he was approached by some female streamers, who have strongly political streams, "bold statements" like painting breasts blue on live stream etc. They requested making joint streams with him. He politely refused.
Currently, Anita Sarkeesian calls him 'mysogynitst'.
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Except the name-callers have journalist friends and a big following, and may influence your revenue, by giving you a label no advertizer is willing to be seen near.
Re:Depends on who you ask (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, because they have politeness built into their culture, it is always to reasonable limits. They've had thousands of years to refine it. There are subtle queues to turn someone down that people will instantly pick up on and not push against before anything gets to rude.
Conversely our culture is bipolar with it, and right now the rubber band is stretched all the way towards the PC side, where constructive criticism is equated to personal attack. Things will either snap in this position (grind to a halt) or bounce to the other extreme (descend into chaos as people decide being an asshole and owning it is easier than navigating the PC minefield).
Re:Depends on who you ask (Score:4, Insightful)
Why would you step into such a minefield anywhere near work in the first place?
Don't discuss religion or politics in 'polite society'. If someone starts the discussion, I'll tell them what I think, outside work.
A 'soul soliciting pigfucker' tried to bend my ear on a flight to Salt Lake City. I think half the plane was offended by what I said about Mormonism. That was all on the soul solicitor and I told her that.
Re:Depends on who you ask (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand many people think behaving as an asshole is showing confidence. As KixWooder wrote: don't conflate the two.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
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This has been the curse of my life. People assume that I'm an asshole because I'm simply right about most things. An I'm that way not because I have some genus level intelligence, I mean I am above average but I assume that all /. posters are above average. I'm usually right about things because I take the time to think things through and do the math and research.
I think I would be more of an asshole if I bitched when people corrected me when I'm wrong. I actually don't mind being corrected.
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Being correct does not preclude you from being an asshole. If people are always thinking you're an asshole, maybe that says something about your communication style?
From the Dude himself: "You're not wrong, you're just an asshole." [youtube.com]
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In my personal experience, I actually find that the biggest, most toxic assholes are the ones who have the LEAST self-confidence. It can often by hard to see through the bluster, but a lot of that shouting down and putting on a strong display are covers for insecurity.
If you are *actually* self-confident, you don't need bluster and you don't need to put others down to feel good about yourself.
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They're not the same, but they are correlated. A lot of arrogant people just don't care enough to learn social grace
Re: Why do tech-bros love antisocial behavior? (Score:5, Insightful)
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He is very often a humble, gently-spoken guy. It's *also* not uncommon for him to act the raging asshole on the mailing lists when he believes someone is badly out of line. The two are not mutually exclusive, and as he stated, on reflection he's realized years later that at least some of his outbursts didn't serve anyone's interests (due to his misunderstandings, or otherwise)
Re: Why do tech-bros love antisocial behavior? (Score:4, Insightful)
Uncle Albert said it best (Score:3, Interesting)
“Great spirits have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly.”
Albert Einstein
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I'm fairly arrogant at work. I'm not an asshole..Don't conflate the two.
Arrogance is counterproductive at work.
You *might* be a superstar, but there aren't too many of them.
And, even if you are, you'll gain a better following if you're pleasant to be around.
Without exception, the arrogant folks I have worked with, were "legends in their own minds". When I had to work on their designs, I found they were no better than anyone else's. But when I went to them with questions about why they did something in a particular way, instead of taking the time to explain, they were dismissi
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If you're fairly arrogant, you're most likely an asshole. If you don't think so, you're probably a bigger one than you think.
Re:Why do tech-bros love antisocial behavior? (Score:5, Insightful)
Being confident, when you're also competent, makes you more likely to do something big.
Being arrogant makes you more likely to walk straight into a catastrophe because you're too much of a dick to question yourself.
Yes, a lot of people confuse them.
Psychology (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you think that, maybe, people with anti-social psychological makeups are drawn to a field where they don't really need to talk to anyone to accomplish something?
Most people would consider me to be a nice guy. Maybe a little off in one way or another, but I'm affable. That doesn't mean that I *like* to talk to people. I'm working from home today. I'm going to write code for nine hours straight without talking to another human being (besides occasionally looking at /. ) I'm perfectly fine with this.
I work with marketing, services and support people who can't stand not talking. They constantly come around and talk to other people about stuff, not necessarily work related. I don't mind it, but I'd rather not.
I work with people who come off as jerks if you would meet them in passing, but I understand their mindset. They don't like talking to people. It's not that they hate you, they would rather not interact with you.
This is the central disconnect, I think. People who are - I guess you can call them introverts - would simply rather not talk to other people. It's not that they don't like women, or minorities, or any other specific category of people. They don't like talking to *people* All inclusive. That doesn't make it OK. That doesn't make them not jerks. But understanding their mindset is important in dealing with them.
Re:Psychology (Score:5, Interesting)
That is not an excuse, to be honest. I mean, you don't like talking to other people yet most people would consider you to be a nice guy. Same here, generally speaking. There is no need to be a dick in order not to talk to other people.
Absolutely (Score:2)
There is no need to be a dick in order not to talk to other people.
Absolutely! Which is why at the end of my post I said:
That doesn't make them not jerks. But understanding their mindset is important in dealing with them.
Re:Psychology (Score:5, Interesting)
>There is no need to be a dick in order not to talk to other people.
The problem here is, "being a dick" is highly subjective and ambiguous.
We have plenty of other, proper words to describe activities where a person more specifically, materially infringes upon another in unambiguous ways (assault, threats, libel, etc.)
So what is being an "asshole" or "dick" actually? It's almost exclusively a judgement made by 50% of those in the specific scenario. One person feels another person had emotionally disappointed them. How easy is it to go through life accomplishing greatness in any area, and at the same time making sure every single person you come in contact with, has their particular personal sensibilities pandered to?
I would also submit that a key component of "being an asshole" involves not following other peopes' desires. But if anything, this is a definition of what a pioneer is. Someone who does their own thing. If you have an associate that you want to behave a certain way, and he behaves differently, it's easy for you to paint him as an "asshole", but maybe his different way yields something that is much more valuable to the community than your acceptances of his demeanor?
Re:Psychology (Score:4, Insightful)
So what is being an "asshole" or "dick" actually? It's almost exclusively a judgement made by 50% of those in the specific scenario. One person feels another person had emotionally disappointed them. How easy is it to go through life accomplishing greatness in any area, and at the same time making sure every single person you come in contact with, has their particular personal sensibilities pandered to?
Reminds me of something a comedian said: "Comedians are often told they have crossed a line. By the nature of the business, this happens. If you're a comedian and have never been told you have gone too far, you probably aren't going far enough. If you are always being told you have gone too far, you're probably just an asshole."
Every now and then you will offend somebody. When that happens you just apologize and go on. If you are always offending people and refuse to do anything but justify your position, especially if you feel you are having to pander to people, you're most like assured to be an asshole.
Re:Psychology (Score:4, Interesting)
There is no need to be a dick in order not to talk to other people.
Ideally no, but sometimes people just can't take a hint.
I work in an open plan office. It is probably the worst environment for the type of work I do (devops). I have a queue of tickets that I'm working and it's technical stuff so I need to focus.
Since it's an open plan, my "office" has no door and no walls. The noise is out of control, averaging about 70 decibels and peaking at 80 to 85. I wear headphones so I can tune it out and concentrate on my tasks.
Even though we have a chat system, I still have people walking up to my desk and standing next to me while I'm wearing headphones and clearly busy on another task. The interruption not only derails what I'm currently doing, but it takes additional time to switch contexts and get back into the flow. They could send me a chat message about their problem, or wait until I'm visibly not busy, but no they stand next to me and interrupt.
Years ago I had someone walk up to my desk, disable the "do not disturb" setting I had enabled on my phone (since I was busy), transfer a call to my desk, take the receiver off hook and hand it to me. I was livid.
Many times people are simply not respectful when it comes to interrupting someone else. I try to be nice about it, but it's extremely frustrating and if I'm already irritated by the problem I'm working on, I just might yell at the person when they interrupt me for some non-essential item that could have waited until later.
Re:Psychology (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you think that, maybe, people with anti-social psychological makeups are drawn to a field where they don't really need to talk to anyone to accomplish something?
Sure, but it should be made clear to everyone that software engineering is not such a field. You can (and must) accomplish small things without talking to people, but to do anything of real significance communication is an essential skill. You can kind of paper over your anti-social makeup by working only with other people of a similar type, but that creates a closed culture that limits the pool of people you can draw on which creates problems for scaling, for problem solving (limiting the diversity of viewpoints) and for understanding the needs of your customer population, who are almost certainly not the same type of person.
People who are - I guess you can call them introverts - would simply rather not talk to other people.
That's not what an introvert is. Most introverts do like talking to other people, we just perceive it as an activity that takes effort and leaves us feeling drained and desiring some alone time to "recharge". A good conversation is enjoyable and worth the effort, but it does take effort. Extroverts feel energized by talking to people. They find doing things alone draining and they need to spend time with other people to "recharge".
Extroverts tend to be better communicators simply because they get more practice, but introverts can also be excellent communicators if they put the effort into it, through both study and practice. Similarly, extroverts tend to be better at understanding other people because they spend more time at it, but introverts are fully capable.
Re:Psychology (Score:5, Insightful)
>it should be made clear to everyone that software engineering is not such a field. You can (and must) accomplish small things without talking to people, but to do anything of real significance communication is an essential skill.
Software engineering is indeed, such a field. You can't offend a computer. Debugging requires zero politesse.
What you're talking about, requiring significant communication skills is an entirely different discipline: marketing.
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>it should be made clear to everyone that software engineering is not such a field. You can (and must) accomplish small things without talking to people, but to do anything of real significance communication is an essential skill.
Software engineering is indeed, such a field.
You're dead wrong. Programming can be done without communicating much with other humans, but only as long as the program is small enough to be created by a single person. Software engineering is programming at scale, creating large systems that no one person could produce, or fully understand, and it cannot be done solo.
You can't offend a computer. Debugging requires zero politesse.
Sure, but you can offend any of the other five members of your team, or any member of the dozen or so other teams with which you collaborate.
What you're talking about, requiring significant communication skills is an entirely different discipline: marketing.
You not only don't know what software engineeri
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I have always maintained that software development requires technical skill, but unless you do it alone it's really hard to work on a team if you are an asshole. Many times people put up with the assholes because they are good technically. But if you can be technically good AND get along with people... you and everyone else will be much better off.
Re:Why do tech-bros love antisocial behavior? (Score:4, Interesting)
You can be both; a good coder and a good person. Being deficient in a healthy human emotion shouldn't be a badge of honor.
I think that some people get interested in tech because they haven't learned how to interact with people, for whatever reason. People are arguably more interesting than computers, but they are also more frustrating. I was raised by a single mother who avoided life. She didn't have a social life, so I didn't learn to interact with humans as a child. I had to figure that out on my own, and without the influence of the scruz geek scene I could easily have ended up as an incel white supremacist since I scarcely even saw a person of color until I was a teenager. I was even raised to be a homophobe, not so much by my parents, but by the kids around me at school to whom "gay" (&c) was an insult.
I'm still not much of a programmer, although over the years I've picked up the basics, but I always had a keen interest in computers. Finally, a complex system to which I could learn to relate without help! All I needed was the documentation, and time. I got involved before the explosive growth of the internet, so I participated in BBSing. And the tone of messages in forums was adversarial and snarky, so I learned to be adversarial and snarky long before I learned to be caring, or forgiving. I learned to respect technical skills before I learned to respect personal skills. That led to work as a systems administrator, but it didn't lead to happy relationships.
I work in medicine, and while many fail at empathy, at least there is a focus on it.
What? Must not be in the US. Here, the focus is on profit, and on treating people like machines. Get them in and out of the office with as little actual human interaction as possible.
Re:Why do tech-bros love antisocial behavior? (Score:4, Insightful)
Some people can't be 'a good person'.
I will take this as a given for the purposes of this conversation, but I don't agree.
That doesn't automatically make them bad coders.
No, it doesn't, but that's a straw man. Nobody claimed it made them bad coders. The claim is that it makes them bad team members.
And sometimes, they are coders so excellent, that [...] you should really consider if it's better to try to change (or dismiss) the efficient asshole, or just have the complainers go seek their luck elsewhere.
Right. I completely agree with that. You could probably write some complicated mathematical equation that would permit you to actually quantify this, and make a logical determination whether it makes more sense to maintain the situation as it is, or make social changes.
However, this situation doesn't fit that description. What we have here is a person who can be a good person, as defined by their regard for the needs of others which is what we're really talking about here. And he appears to recognize the value in doing so. As others have pointed out in this discussion, Linus' primary job is one of management. He can manage more people (and more code!) by being polite than he can by being abusive, even if only because being abusive means that people who could be making a code contribution are going away and doing something else instead.
No one "loves" anti-social behavior (Score:2)
No, that's a totally false statement. Neither of the traits — neither individually nor together — are a prerequisites to being an asshole, nor are sufficient to be one.
There are empathic assholes — using their perception of your emotions to their own ends. There are also nice introverts — you just have to communicate with them explicitly, rather than expect them to understand you via unspoken clues.
...
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compare
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
In a nutshell, asocial behavior is simply the avoidance of social interaction, antisocial behavior is actively harming other people.
Re:Why do tech-bros love antisocial behavior? (Score:5, Insightful)
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No. Not being a jerk does not take extra effort, nor does it take time away from your work. Not being social or friendly and focusing intensely on something is not what Linus was talking about. You can be brief, to the point, and cut through all the bullshit without being abrasive and resorting to ad hominem attacks.
"No thanks" is just as quick and to the point as "Fuck off, I'm busy".
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To add to the other's voices. When you are passionate about something, it takes a LOT of work and causes a lot of internal stress to calmly tell someone that they are wrong or they need to do better. I write emails all the time where I am a total dick because of all the really stupid ideas (personal opinion of course) I heard on a design call. But then I go cool off, come back, and rewrite it in a "professional" manner before hitting send.
This is the way I have learned to cope with it. And it takes effo
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1) Not everyone you perceive to be an asshole is an asshole. Cultural differences play a big role here. Where I'm from, being blunt is appreciated and when we visit the US we perceive everyone as being 'fake'. (Which doesn't mean Americans are in fact fake, but it goes to show the significant difference.)
2) Being empathetic does not make you a good person. Some people, and among coders perhaps more so, do not empathize. At best they can be taught emulate empathy.
3) Your obliviousness to the above suggests y
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Being anti-social and lacking empathy doesn't make you a better coder, it makes you an asshole.
I often wonder if those people crying foul acting all outraged and offended all the time ever even bother to listen to themselves while spewing their own hate filled intolerant gibberish.
You are passing judgment and calling people assholes. What the fuck does that make you? A nice person? Are you god?
You can be both; a good coder and a good person.
Torvalds is a better person than you will ever be.
Being deficient in a healthy human emotion shouldn't be a badge of honor.
Please let everyone know what emotions are healthy and which ones are not. We wouldn't want to be deemed to be deficient in anything by yourself... god forb
Re:Why do tech-bros love antisocial behavior? (Score:5, Insightful)
Being anti-social and lacking empathy doesn't make you a better coder, it makes you an asshole. You can be both; a good coder and a good person. Being deficient in a healthy human emotion shouldn't be a badge of honor.
I work in medicine, and while many fail at empathy, at least there is a focus on it.
Linus is many things, but he is not a "tech-bro" in the modern valley sense. This seems orthogonal to the original discussion, as startup/Silicon Valley/Web 3.0 Culture is toxic for far more reasons than simply the kernel maintainer chewing you out if you try to commit really bad design flaws into it.
Re:Why do tech-bros love antisocial behavior? (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually, unless you're coding for yourself, it really does.
Just getting the actual requirements out of clients/bosses can take hours, you have to be able to handle input (and criticism!) from co-workers, and then there's the inevitable complaints about problems real or imagined when you're done.
Torvalds defined (Score:4, Funny)
The name TorValds has possibly appropos meanings in Norwegian and German. In Norwegian it means "many threats" or "much daring" according to a raw text translation. (presumably it's more nuanced and related to Thor if you are Norwegian).
In German it text translated to a "Array of building openings" or a "forest of Doors". Which I think sounds like a description of "Windows" on an office building.
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In German it text translated to a "Array of building openings" or a "forest of Doors".
What a load of nonsense. Your sig is oddly appropriate.
Hypothesis (Score:4, Insightful)
It seems more and more certain that Linus has indeed fallen to one of the "honeypots" and is being blackmailed.
I hope nothing bad happens to Linus. Other lives have been ruined by the suspected group of people.
He's a douche (Score:3, Interesting)
I always though Linus was a bit of a douche bag, but really, a lot of intelligent people who achieve "fame" or success relatively young are. I think the same personality type that leads to the dedication needed to create something as important as Linux, also tends to create less than stellar human beings.
Re:He's a douche (Score:5, Insightful)
I always though Linus was a bit of a douche bag, but really, a lot of intelligent people who achieve "fame" or success relatively young are. I think the same personality type that leads to the dedication needed to create something as important as Linux, also tends to create less than stellar human beings.
You need a lesson on douchebaggery. Coders like Poettering are douchebags. His code will fuck up everything that others do and he maintains that it is working as designed. Not a bug. Won't fix. EVERYONE ELSE has to work around his assholery. Linus puts up with none of that shit and will tell you to your face that you suck and your code sucks. That makes him abrasive but definitely not a douchebag. The fact that others have to retreat to their safe spaces after being called out for shit work does not constitute douchebaggery on Linus' part. Do your best work and you won't be called out. If you can't do acceptable work that won't get you called out, maybe you aren't kernel developer material.
Re:He's a douche (Score:5, Insightful)
No, no...Poettering is a cunt.
Well, is it a bad thing? After all it's successful (Score:5, Insightful)
So? Linux has likely become successful exactly because of the behaviour of the developers. There's no 'fluffing' anything, it's simply good enough to go in, or shit and shouldn't be in. Linux has succeeded, and is in great shape and this has been the way since it started and likely the 'behaviour' has contributed to that directly.
If that's what it takes for this to keep succeeding, should it change? Probably not.
I'm actually a bit envious (Score:5, Insightful)
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. — George Carlin
In corporate America, so much of being part of a business involves learning to suffer fools. In some way I am envious that, for this little small corner, someone gets to run the experiment of what happens if you stop playing the participation trophy game and refuse to sugar coat things to idiots when they do something really wrong.
But, it's one thing to tell people they're wrong and wasting your time bluntly. It's another to rip someone a new asshole, making sure they know you think they're being an idiot, which is very much Torvalds' style. I'm sure most people have met someone who rules by fear rather than leadership. These overly-emotional assholes are often fools themselves, but Linus is the rare form of asshole who happens to be smart and have solid logic behind the emotion. That makes me think twice about it, but doesn't exempt him from criticism for shitty leadership. I'm glad he's acknowledged the err of his ways -- there's a lot of room for him to improve while still offering blunt efficiency.
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Cult? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd like to see at least a couple of proofs of this egregiously dubious statement.
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At face value it just sounds like someone who's butthurt.
Re:Cult? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd like to see at least a couple of proofs of this egregiously dubious statement.
Yeah, for one thing it's not a "cult" if you actually deliver the miracles, lol Which Linus did.
If folks disagree, they can show everyone how easy it is to make (and manage) a Unix workalike. Maybe they could get a head start by using Hurd ...
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Acting as the Devil's legal counsel ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Acting as the Devil's legal counsel ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Apparently you can suggest women are generally weak, sensitive and easily insulted without being sexist. Personally, I find such suggestions hugely misogynistic.
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It was not said, but strongly and very clearly implied. If you cannot see that, you are blind. (With apologies to the blind...)
Re: Acting as the Devil's legal counsel ... (Score:5, Insightful)
So is Torvalds being exceptionally abusive toward women and discouraging them from contributing, or is he equally abusive toward everyone and that is seen as more likely to discourage the women than men? Because in the latter case it makes the sexist assumption that women are fragile little things that need to be protected more so than the rest of us.
Re:It's not sexist, it's reality (Score:5, Insightful)
biology
Whoa, there, Sparky. Let's not get all crazy and talk about biological differences between the sexes. If you work at Google, please report yourself to HR so that you may be fired.
Women working on the kernel (Score:3, Insightful)
Summary is confusing. It's talking about Linus's straight-forward or aggressive behavior and is then talks about women being discouraged from working on the kernel, as if those are related. But is there actually sexism that has been demonstrated within the kernel dev community, or is it just implied that women are less capable of working in high-stress or tense situations and that men need to act more fluffy?
That implication sounds more sexist than how the kernel dev community has operated.
Of course it's somehow unthinkable to draw the conclusions that fewer women work on the kernel because fewer women want to work on the kernel.
It's not bragging if you can do it (Score:3, Insightful)
1) He created the Linux kernel, which is one of the most essential pieces of software in computing today. Everything else sits on an operating system, which is the thing which interfaces with the hardware.
2) He created a wholly new management method and workflow, for this open source, distributed development process.
Casually brushing these two points aside, like he's some unremarkable CEO, doesn't do the man's achievements justice.
Once things are created, people take them for granted, like a kernel or a country.
Re:It's not bragging if you can do it (Score:5, Insightful)
Quite frankly, compared to others and given his accomplishments, I think Linus is actually a pretty modest person.
Feminism is the root of all evil (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course it's women
It's hilarious that hardly anyone cares thst he was mean to men, it's the WOMEN that must be coddled.
This is obviously a patronizing move, but "progressive" ppl are stupid, so they can't see that
Ah (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux's elite developers, who are overwhelmingly male, tend to share their leader's aggressive self-confidence. There are very few women among the most prolific contributors, though the foundation and researchers estimate that roughly ten per cent of all Linux coders are women.
So women are the same as men, and if you don't think so, you are a knuckle dragging sexist.
On the other hand, women are so different from men that they bring magical special goodness to a project. So we need to do whatever we can to bring them in.
Re: (Score:3)
Apologies for the wrong-think, but it's almost as if you just pointed out why the western notion of diversity is total nonsense.
do something positive instead (Score:5, Insightful)
Linus didn't "build up this cult of personality, this cult of importance", he actually built one of the most important pieces of software on the planet. People respect and accept his behavior because he delivers. Nobody ever forced anybody to work with Linus.
If you don't like someone, don't work with them. If you don't like a company, don't buy their products. If you don't like who an open source project is run, fork the project and do better. Stop intruding into other people's business.
It's a choice I exercise frequently.
There are not many female engineers (Score:5, Informative)
And by all available, reasonably hard facts, it is because women in general want to become engineers significantly less often than men. Stop complaining, let women decide what they want to do in life and accept that! And no, it is not discrimination, harassment or "the patriarchy". It is just that women are fully capable human beings that can make their own decisions on what they want to do in life.
As a result, you will have significantly less female contributors in any larger tech project, whether in leadership position or more hands-on position. Again, stop complaining about this, it is by choice and it actually shows that women these days make their own decisions regarding what career they want. Implying that all these women that decide not to go into engineering are weak, oppressed little children that cannot make their own decisions or run away crying as soon as some hasher words are used (as is frequently done by "feminists") is one of the most misogynistic and repulsive things I know.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You mean insult women by manipulating them into choosing a career that clearly many of them do not want? I can imagine that and I see clearly that this is what people like you want to do, but I find this utterly unacceptable.
For the last time: Women are adults. They can make their own choices and those that chose not to go into engineering will chose so as fully capable adults and the decision will not be because any little things. It will be because what they care about and want to be a part of. Stop regar
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I am a developer and I lead a highly technical team of 7. My team is all male and it is mainly my fault as I brought 3 of those people on my team in myself. The other 4 were candidates brought forth by our Talent Development team, only one candidate ever in my 4 years here was female.
That said, I do watch as females in the organization are pounded into verbal submission by male counterparts. We are a challenge-first culture and the females do generally back down. When asked for advice, I remind them they ar
Re: (Score:3)
What agenda? The one where I openly welcome working with people, regardless of their gender?
How is that an agenda from which I would profit?
Male or female ? (Score:3)
Does he reject code written by women ? Probably .... if it's bad code!. Does he know if a male or female wrote it ? Only based on the submitter's email address which can easily be faked or changed I would presume.
Compared with Bill Gates? (Score:2)
From the villain saddling the world with Windoz — and actively sabotaging compatibility with other people's software (DR-DOS, Samba), perception of Bill Gates has been gradually rising over the past 20 years — even on Slashdot, where the supposed "nerds" really ought to know better.
And now a very personal attack on Linux and Linus (if you can even separate the two) — who, along with the BSDs and GNU have been providing the computing world with the alternatives.
If New Yorker is not partakin
Diversity is counter-productive (Score:4, Insightful)
The question that should be objectively examined, but is likely impossible to do so in a current political climate, is whether increasing diversity of the Linux contributors would lead to a better Linux kernel. Empirically, merit-based approach worked well up to this point and it isn't clear that it should be replaced by diversity-based approach. It is conceivable that all-white, all-male, all-antisocial, all-hostile group of kernel developers would produce the best possible kernel.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not even convinced it's best for all human facing organizations. I would not want my country to be defended by a woman-led army, would not work
behind the dress - who took the (s) out of Linux (Score:3, Insightful)
I knew this was a hit piece!
Please go look at who's behind the sadistic COC , yes the feminazi troll who caused Linus to fall on his sword: Coraline Ada Ehmke, , she's a real peach!
- a fully signed up member of the patriarchy.
You can retain the ability to criticize . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
. . . and promote and value excellent contributions, or you can care more about someones' feelz above all else. Linux just chose the latter, initiating a well-known downward spiral of complaining and inevitable technical stagnation that's been seen many times before once these CoCs are introduced into open source projects. At the end of the day, these two things are mutually exclusive, thanks to the everything-offends-me-and-if you-don't-agree-you're-a-misogynist-racist SJW brigade. This is the logical conclusion of weaponizing CoCs which target straight white males from the get-go, particularly those authored by people who hate the idea of meritocracy [postmeritocracy.org].
Guess what? The real world doesn't give a *fuck* how you feel, especially in unforgiving disciplines like engineering and tech. Life ain't fair, and 99%+ of the people contributing to Linux don't give two shits about social justice one way or the other. Open source is *not* a social movement! Those people are there to code -- well -- and because they're adults they can handle a rant or two every one in awhile and even a nasty, well-deserved public undressing, and they don't need one of these batshit-crazy CoCs to tell them how to behave. The simple addition of "Don't be an asshole" would've addressed the specific concern without throwing the baby out with the bathwater while giving power to those who don't necessarily deserve it.
The accusation (Score:5, Insightful)
so that number will include repetitions and other people's craps, and as such it does not accurately measure the magnitude of the defendant's crime. I believe that the inquisition should be repeated with more scrupulous zeal.
And remember, even though he says that he's sorry, we're still talking about a male here, therefore he's not to be trusted: he could start again uttering mild profanities at any time.
It's impressive (Score:3)
How they had the foresight to write the story before the events occurred.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Let me clarify (Score:5, Interesting)
I know quite a few female engineers and some scientists. None of them have a problem with being called out when they screw up. All of them do it to others as well. And all of them can very well distinguish between a personal insult and language directed at their work but not at them. I don't think any of them would have any problem with the style of Linus or the kernel core team.
Incidentally, I had some interactions with the core Linux team from some bug reports I made and I found them to be very focused, but in no way arrogant or insulting or the like. They just have a lot to do and a lot of responsibility and really want to get the job done well. I fully approve of that attitude.
Re: (Score:3)
Frankly, I think this has very little to do with women or any other underrepresented group. It's mostly about a small group of loudmouths who believe that they know what's best for everybody. It's a power-play for no other reason than self-gratification.
I've had the privilege of working under female leadership on multiple occasions. Their immunity various complaints that men have to be wary of allows them to be blunt, direct, strict and extremely demanding. It was eye-opening and refreshing. I have a feeling female Linus would just laugh at all of this.
A female Linus would be *able* to laugh at this. A female Linus would be held up as being direct, strong, and so on for doing the exact same things.
Part of me can't help but think that all this has done is hand certain types of people a thermonuclear bomb any time they want to use it. As I said in the previous thread on this, if anyone thinks that people of *NON-PROTECTED CLASS* won't be scared of criticizing any member of *PROTECTED CLASS* they haven't been paying attention. This will be even truer if some
Re:Asshole (Score:5, Informative)
As Linus gets pretty much called out every time he is an asshole by, ahem, some special interest parties, it seems he is actually very rarely an asshole.
Re: (Score:3)
Obviously the LF didn't magically conjur up this money. It's given to them by many corporations who benefit from Linux and want to ensure its continued development. They could pay Linus directly, but the indirect route avoids allegations of bias and favoritism towards specific companies.
Bottom line: create something that multiple companies benefit from, something that they could not easily fork and continue in-house, and money will flow your way. Just keep in mind that 1.6 million is a mere fraction of the
Re:AC On Linus Torvalds (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux Torvalds is an arrogant asshole. But, as usual, everyone is trotting out the same old bullshit "We ain't got enuff wimmins! He be scarrin' away all the wimmins!"
No. Just fucking no. Just fuck off with your stupid bullshit.
He is an asshsole to *EVERYONE*. He is insulting and demeaning to *EVERYONE*. Not just men, not just women. Everyone.
If you're terribly upset because Linux Torvalds was mean to you, not in person but *IN A FUCKING E-MAIL* then the real problem is you, not him.
Nope. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm sorry, from here Linux seems like a very very nice guy. Yeah, he gets super-pissed with people who waste his time. Of course he does. He's the effing kernel lead and if you didn't to your homework and keep on harping about the same bullshit although you should know better, especially if you're a paid engineer at a large famous and powerful IC company.
Yes, he uses explitives where he shouldn't and it makes him sound immature and childish and way less sophisticated than it should. Which is why he wants to improve. Kudos to him for that.
I'd take Linus as a teamlead over most others anytime. And if he were mad at me if look very carefully into what I delivered that made him made before I get back to him or simply blow it off as Linus being Linus.
Re: (Score:3)
I'm sorry, from here Linu[s] seems like a very very nice guy.
Yes he is, even though I take issue with the kernel community culture he has historically promoted, or at best tolerated. He is a legendary keyboard warrior, a master of English (not his native language), educated in rhetoric and skilful in debate. But he gets it wrong from time to time and unloads a bunch of garbage that should really have been copied to /dev/null. The problem is, many of these outbursts have gotten positive feedback from supporters and media figures who really should know better. And a lo
Re:AC On Linus Torvalds (Score:5, Insightful)
He is insulting and demeaning to *EVERYONE*. Not just men, not just women. Everyone.
IOW, from the article:
“He is an equal-opportunity abuser,” she said. Squire added, though, that for non-male programmers the hostility and public humiliation is more isolating.
From what I've seen, it's OK to tell a white male programmer "your code is crap". But if you want to criticize the code of someone from a minority, you need to be extra careful, because you never know when they take it as an insult against their minority group. It's pretty sad, because it used to be that "on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog", and code was good because it was good code, not because it was written by a nice guy.
Still, there's an older and more general idea that if you want to play in the big leagues, you need to grow a thick skin. Linux kernel development isn't some neighbourhood hobby group where anyone can play. I just hope it continues be the big league in terms of code quality rather than political correctness. On that, Linus has a nice quote from 2013 in the same article:
“The same way I’m not going to start wearing ties, I’m also not going to buy into the fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords. Because THAT is what ‘acting professionally’ results in: people resort to all kinds of really nasty things because they are forced to act out their normal urges in unnatural ways.”
Re: (Score:3)
I don't think Torvalds was misogynistic, nor do I think anyone is claiming he was. I think they were just claiming he was too abrasive for a professional working environment. The word "misogyny" or anything derived from it doesn't appear anywhere in the New Yorker article.
Just wait. It'll come.
For whatever reason, the New Yorker articles quotes a couple of women, but there have been plenty of guys who've gotten fed up with Linus's abrasiveness and moved on.
I think the "for whatever reason" is a bit loaded there... The "whatever reason" is pretty clear in the larger cultural environment.
It's probably worth noting that there's already pressure forming to have Ted Ts'o removed from the TAB on "meta [twitter.com]" grounds (Can't make a report while this person is on the Board), and explicitly called out as "someone who didn't sign off on the patch [twitter.com]", from a person shouted out to by the reporter [twitter.com] of the NY article on the announcement.
Re: (Score:3)
Also, the NY is definitely highlighting this. Misogyny is the implication:
Linus Torvalds's decision to step aside came after we asked him a series of questions about his conduct for a story on complaints about his abusive behavior discouraging women from working as Linux-kernel programmers
https://twitter.com/NewYorker/status/1042793559601164290 [twitter.com]