Linux Kernel 4.8 Adds Microsoft Surface 3 Support (betanews.com) 133
Brian Fagioli, writing for BetaNews:If you are a Windows user, and want a really great computer, you should consider Microsoft's Surface line. Not only do they serve as wonderful tablets, but with the keyboard attachment, they can be solid laptops too. While many Linux users dislike Microsoft, some of them undoubtedly envy Windows hardware. While it is possible to run Linux distros on some Surface tablets, not everything will work flawlessly. Today, release candidate 1 of Linux Kernel 4.8 is announced, and it seems a particularly interesting driver has been added -- the Surface 3 touchscreen controller. "This seems to be building up to be one of the bigger releases lately, but let's see how it all ends up. The merge window has been fairly normal, although the patch itself looks somewhat unusual: over 20 percent of the patch is documentation updates, due to conversion of the drm and media documentation from docbook to the Sphinx doc format. There are other doc updates, but that's the big bulk of it," says Linus Torvalds, Linux creator. Will Microsoft's lower-priced (starting at $499) hybrid computer become the ultimate mobile Linux machine?
MicroSlashDot (Score:1)
Slashvertisement (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Slashvertisement (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, what's up with that? OK, an RC Linux Kernel has a driver for the touchscreen. This does seem more like a Surface ad than an announcement about a single driver. I don't see people loading Linux on these things. It doesn't make sense.
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I have a Surface 3 and I've run Linux and Android on it. It is nice hardware for what it is (low end, latest Atom processor, 4 GB RAM) and as a long time Linux user as well I welcome any improvements in support.
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Latest Atom processor == last Atom atom processor as Intel discontinued further development of the Atom line due to insufficient sales.
I never saw the point in Surface as I found the Win8 interface unwieldy (and _unwelcome_ on my laptop), x86 compatibility unneeded in a tablet and the whole package expensive compared to tablets that did what I needed them to do (& not what Microsoft thought I should be doing with them).
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First, it's not a tablet. It's a 2 in 1 mini laptop. Second, I don't run Win 8 on it. Everyone has their own use case though.
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It Slices! It Dices! It was claimed by Microsoft to be the be the do all, be everything device for everyone! It's a Tablet but with the smart keyboard(TM) it's a laptop as well!
I called it a tablet because that's the way Microsoft called it. As for Win8, I wouldn't use it either.
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Regardless of what you call it, there's a difference between not seeing the point in a particular form factor and not preferring it for your own purposes. Are you really unable to understand why other people like the Surface line?
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Not at all, I do appreciate that Surface is what some people want. It's just not what most people want or need and it's merits were clearly oversold.
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Considering the form factor is the only one showing significant growth, while both traditional tablet and PC sales flag, I suspect your assessment of "what most people want or need" is mostly projection.
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Yup that growth certainly explains why Intel decided to close shop on Atom. All that growth, ayup...
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The majority of convertible devices don't use an Atom.
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And no bmws are powered by ford motors but that doesn't have anything to do with what we were talking about which was atom powered surfaces either.
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Actually, I specifically talked about the "Surface line" and the "form factor", rather than the Surface 3 itself.
Likewise, the statement I was responding to did not reference the particular chip, but argued against the interface, the form factor and what you deemed to be unnecessary compatibility with the x86 ISA:
"I never saw the point in Surface as I found the Win8 interface unwieldy (and _unwelcome_ on my laptop), x86 compatibility unneeded in a tablet and the whole package expensive compared to tablets t
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They discontinued the SoFIA platform aimed at phones and phablets. The underlying microarchitecture is not being discontinued; it's being rebranded. The upcoming Apollo Lake line of Celeron and Pentium processors will feature Goldmont cores (which are derived from the current generation Airmont cores used in the current generation Atom processors.)
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Intel laying off 11% of their personnel and "rededicating the resources affected to Atom to products that can advance the firm's strategy and generate higher returns" is a bit more than a mere rebranding.
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You missed a couple key words in that "quote". Highlighted below:
"The resources dedicated to the two Atom chips will now be focused on products that can advance the firm's strategy and generate higher returns."
As I said, they are not dropping the microarchitecture. They are dropping the SoFIA and Broxton SOC platforms, but "will continue to support our tablet customers with SoFIA 3G/3GR, Bay Trail and Cherry Trail now, and later with Apollo Lake and some SKUs from our Core processor family."
Apollo Lake, o
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Nobody cares whether the Atom architecture is used in forthcoming processors or what they are called. The big change is that the Atom priced processors are going away and that Intel has laid off and/or reassigned everyone in Atom to higher priced processor teams so they aren't coming back. Microsoft will not be able to claim that Surface isn't all that much more expensive than ARM tablets when changing the processor to a goldmont or a bay trail or a cherry trail or a fairy trail doubles the price.
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No one knows what the pricing Apollo Lake processors will be yet, but considering they will be using the same CPU and GPU core as the cancelled Willow Trail platform (the tablet variant of Broxton), it seems premature - and more than a bit silly - to conclude it will double the price of tablets.
Their mobile portfolio was looking redundant and unwieldy. Had they followed through on the roadmap as stated you would have had the Willow Trail SoCs (presumably in x3, x5 and x7 variants again), the Apollo Lake S
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Easy enough to compare the prices between Atom and Pentium and reread the quote on rededicating what they didn't lay off to "generate higher returns" though. If you want to wait for the programmed discontinuation of low priced Atoms before understanding, be my guest.
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It's not easy to compare the prices on products that haven't been released and have no public pricing yet. They certainly won't go as low as current generation Atoms, but I would be surprised if they don't offer options cheaper than current generation Celerons. Even if they don't, those have a "recommended customer price" of $107, which is well above the wholesale price to systems integrators. You can buy a Chromebook using one for under $200 without much shopping around.
It could hurt them long term in t
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Intel didn't lay off thousands and reaffect the rest of the teams working on atom to continue selling cut priced processors. The era of cheap x86 compatible processors appears to be over which sounds the death knell for cheap Microsoft surfaces.
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You seem awfully hung up on the initial characterization of Intel's announcement. They are not discontinuing existing SKUs. They are not discontinuing the Atom microarchitecture. They are not discontinuing the Celeron and Pentium lines that are already used in sub-$200 devices. They are not even discontinuing the Atom brand as it turns out; they just demoed the new line at the Developer conference this week: http://www.anandtech.com/show/10576/more-details-on-broxton-quad-core-ecc-up-to-18-eus-of-gen9 [anandtech.com]
An
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Ask yourself why people weren't running Linux on it. When you buy a tablet device which has clear tradeoffs compared to a laptop why would you run an OS that can't work with the biggest traded feature? A tablet without touch doesn't make sense. This change will be the reason I will try Linux on my surface, something I haven't considered thus far.
Well, anything at the moment is better than Win10 (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously, with Win10 you pretty much accept that any of your info / personal docs / etc may be sent to Microsoft. So yes, an alternative would be fantastic to run on that hardware.
Hardware is nice, shame about the software.
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"Seriously, with Win10 you pretty much accept that any of your info / personal docs / etc may be sent to Microsoft"
Complete BS. Maybe this feature can be located near the infamous backdoor into Windows that no one has ever found? Complain all you want about MS, and there is a lot to complain about, but every other HW or SW platform in existence have just as many things to complain about. No one has been able to find any personal data packed within telemetry data sent to MS. And telemetry data can be blocked
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- Complete Ignant.The rebirth of "Windows as a service" is "a service of ads".. It is an advertisement platform, and to serve ads today competetively with google, facebook amazon and apple you are gonna need BIG DATA..... Where and how do you think that BIG DATA is conceived?
WAKE UP FOR EFS SAKE !!!!
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Seriously, with Win10 you pretty much accept that any of your info / personal docs / etc may be sent to Microsoft. So yes, an alternative would be fantastic to run on that hardware.
Hardware is nice, shame about the software.
For most non-enterprise users, there is FAR more useful information about them on their smartphones than on their desktops.
My Windows 10 desktop has nothing remotely as privacy-endangering as having a GPS locator, accelerometer, live microphone, and two cameras strapped to my body 24/7.
The average American with a smartphone has far, far more to fear about their privacy being abused in unexpected ways by Google and Apple than by Microsoft. It's not even close.
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Seriously, with Win10 you pretty much accept that any of your info / personal docs / etc may be sent to Microsoft. So yes, an alternative would be fantastic to run on that hardware.
For most non-enterprise users, there is FAR more useful information about them on their smartphones than on their desktops.
Android doesn't send everything you do back to Google like Windows 10 does with Microsoft. It's not that it sends nothing. But it doesn't send your every keystroke.
"A prawn Goebbels and a Hermann Goering" (Score:5, Funny)
While many Linux users dislike Microsoft...
"Don't mention the war!"
...some of them undoubtedly envy Windows hardware.
"I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right."
Its ok I got (Score:3)
laser equipped shark proof Windows blinds in my house controlled by Linux running on Windows hardware.
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Oh I wish i had a Zune. Or perhaps a no compromise surface tablet; perhaps one running RT. No problem - i'll just order one using my Nokia windows mobile phone with almost no market share. I'll be quite the envy of every developer out there.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
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Because a touchscreen works different than a mouse? Have you ever used a modern smartphone?
Re:who committed it? why? (Score:5, Informative)
Everything is locked down? Weird then that they publish this [microsoft.com]. It tells you how to enable/disable Secure Boot, how to enable/disable TPM, how to boot from other devices, etc.
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and FWIW the problem getting Linux onto surface isnt the drivers, its getting around the fucking DRM. Everything is signed, the UEFI is locked down, and TPM does its due diligence in ensuring you never get to run anything but windows.
AIUI the arm based surface tablets (surface RT and surface 2) are locked down to the hilt with forced secure boot that will only boot windows
OTOH the x86 based ones (surface pro, surface pro 2, surface 3, surface pro 3) can have secure boot disabled.
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AIUI the arm based surface tablets (surface RT and surface 2) are locked down to the hilt with forced secure boot that will only boot windows
Not quite. They will only boot Microsoft-signed bootloaders. Such as Red Hat's shim [redhat.com] which in turn launches GRUB or what have you.
CAPTCHA: shared
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I'm prettys sure you are wrong,
My memory says that the keys used to sign the shims are only valid for x86 systems, not windows RT systems. I can't seem to find a good source for that now though I did find a mention in passing in https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-... [microsoft.com] . Furthermore everything I can find relating to linux on the surface RT relates to a recently found bug.
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Marvel WiFi is garbage on FOSS, you'll probably have better luck running the windows driver with the NDIS shim. You should avoid Marvel wifi products like the plague if you want to run windows, they are FOSS hostile.
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Fast moving target with crap shortcuts to abandonware overnight.
There was even one vendor that made major hardware changes without changing the model number so that if you lose the driver disk that came with it you are screwed because the driver from the net won't work with it.
To make things worse some of those dodgy five or older year old chipsets are still turning up in new hardware today.
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It's already possible to boot up a Linux distro, regardless of the state of the touch screen... the UEFI on the Surface x86 devices (not ARM hardware) can have secure boot disabled. The TPM is engaged by the bootloader and OS, it doesn't lock you out from making changes to the disk if you disable secure boot and write your own filesystem.
Secure Boot and the TPM (on the x86 Surface devices) are less about locking you out from running thirdparty software and more about preventing malware and other undesirable
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Re: who committed it? why? (Score:5, Informative)
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While I have no use of this particular feature I want to say "thank you" to everyone writing code that allows Linux to support more hardware. Live long and prosper.
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While I'd never buy a device like this I want to applaud the work simply because I know nobody ever does and there is a lack of appreciation in general for this kind of thing as evidence by peoples comments. Now I'll give a nudge on what I think we should be doing and start by saying I am involved in projects that are doing this kind of stuff.
I think we should be focusing on improving hardware support for the pieces that we actually have a bit of control over already and are focused at GNU/Linux users. An e
There is no "linux" hardware (Score:2)
not outside of android and chromebooks at least. And neither of those two are good to do /real/ work. Linux users have to chose between windows and mac hardware to install their distro on, and usually they chose the windows hardware.
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Wrong. There is a lot of Hardware which is only available with a Linux based OS.
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You can also build your own PC and not buy any OS. Does it still count as Windows hardware if it doesn't come with Windows?
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There is plenty of Linux hardware out there, in the professional world. Even more so when you step up to the workstation and server level.
slashvertisement? (Score:4, Funny)
"If you are a Windows user, and want a really great computer, you should consider Microsoft's Surface line."
What is this shit?
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I really don't understand why some slashdotters take time out of their day to complain about this. I mean, if something that could be called "advertising" offends you, why not just ignore it? Why let it bother you so much?
Re:slashvertisement? (Score:4, Insightful)
Why comment on this? Who gives a shit? It is a single line of an article summary, which is just a quote of TFA itself. Why draw more attention to what is little more than just an opinion on "a really great computer"? I really don't understand why some slashdotters take time out of their day to complain about this. I mean, if something that could be called "advertising" offends you, why not just ignore it? Why let it bother you so much?
Because they feel that if they let it pass without comment, then it will move the bar of what's acceptable, which will cause more of that sort of thing in the future. It's the "first they came for the Communists, and I said nothing because I wasn't a Communist" argument.
Whether that attitude is justified, or whether complaining about it will actually have any effect, are separate questions.
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Are you new here? Editors don't read the summaries they post, never have. Submitters can thus slip in whatever ads they like.
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I've occasionally read submitters claim that their summary got screwed up by the editors, so I'm not sure they never read it.
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There's advertising (clearly marked as such) and so-called 'native advertising' (disguised as an article you might want to read - curated by a source you think you trust). This is straddling that line. Nobody cares about advertising on Slashdot (if only because they've got it blocked). Everybody should care about native advertising everywhere - since it dilutes the value of journalism in general.
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There's a solution to the "not coming back after a switch" problem, but you have to use ALT-TAB. After the game (Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout etc. - this applies to all of these and maybe more!) switches out, ALT-TAB back to it - you'll get the black full screen or a black window with a title bar.
Let go of ALT-TAB, and then DO THE SAME AGAIN but make sure you are selecting Skyrim again and not another window. That's right, ALT-TAB back out and all the way round, and back into Skyrim a second time, without lett
Bootloader will be locked to windows only (Score:2)
Bootloader will be locked to windows only so are they going to add a fake windows id to linux to bypass that?
Re:Bootloader will be locked to windows only (Score:5, Informative)
Wrong. They even publish [microsoft.com] how to disable secure boot an TPM.
Small fruit (Score:5, Insightful)
When I first got my MacBook Pro, I read several articles about how well Windows ran on it once you installed the BootCamp drivers. Back then, the MacBook Pro was arguably the best hardware out there, with a retina display, multi-touch touchpad, and with current processors.
Contrast with today, where Apple has not refreshed the hardware for some time, and are letting OSX seem to rot in place. Now, the best hardware arguably comes from Microsoft, and people are hard at work making sure Linux runs well on it.
Strange times indeed... What's next?
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Apple is flaming out as usual.
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Now, the best hardware arguably comes from Microsoft, and people are hard at work making sure Linux runs well on it.
While the last statement is true ("people are hard at work making sure Linux runs well on it"), I've seen nothing to indicate the first statement is remotely accurate. Our Windows admins regularly swear at and about dumb issues with Microsoft's hardware. And when I've had to use Microsoft's hardware, I haven't been impressed.
Now I'm admittedly a Mac guy, but... from my perspective, and strictly looking at the hardware - Lenovo's hardware runs circles around Microsoft's.
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Our Windows admins regularly swear at and about dumb issues with Microsoft's hardware. And when I've had to use Microsoft's hardware, I haven't been impressed.
Maybe your windows admins should RMA the device. On my 2nd Surface Pro device now, and the girlfriend is on the Surface Pro 4. Other than a full on hardware fault we've found not "dumb" issues that weren't due to stupidity on the software (e.g. attaching keyboard after shutting down device in portrait mode locks the device in portrait mode and also locks the ability to enable screen rotation because ... Windows 10).
The hardware itself is incredibly solid. The OS on the other hand ...
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Our Windows admins regularly swear at and about dumb issues with Microsoft's hardware.
What sort of 'dumb issues'?
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Contrast with today, where Apple has not refreshed the hardware for some time, and are letting OSX seem to rot in place. Now, the best hardware arguably comes from Microsoft, and people are hard at work making sure Linux runs well on it. Strange times indeed... What's next?
My guess is that Apple is prepping for the day they drop Intel and x86 for their in-house ARM chips, most people have "enough" computing power and the power users Apple don't care about anymore - they've been leaving the server, workstation and corporate markets and offers no options for serious gamers. Pretty much all new features in macOS Sierra is either jointly developed with iOS 10 or coming from iOS like Siri or about integrating better with iOS devices, eventually they're going to be the same thing.
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But x86 hardware is cheap, and Apple will preserve a token presence in the market of "real computers".
What you're proposing is slightly better than Windows RT, but many people will pass. Negative buzz about a Mac that doesn't run your programs and has half the performance is not useful for anything, whereas selling a $3000 Mac that's 20% slower than a $2000 PC (except for the GPU where that's worse) is not a very big deal for those who buy it.
Even the Mac Pro may get updated with exponentially better hardwa
Tablets with Keyboards? (Score:3, Interesting)
I need a keyboard to do the things I do with a computer.
A laptop cunningly puts the computer bit on the bottom, with the keyboard attached to the top side of the computer and the screen is attach to the computer with a hinge. This works because the computer+keyboard is heavier than the screen, so it doesn't fall backwards.
Then some bright spark said, "Hey! Let's put the computer bit on the back of the screen. So now you end up with a skinny keyboard and the computer and screen oriented vertically which will not stand up on its own, so ends up with ridiculous things like flip out screen stands to keep the screen standing.
This is why I don't have a surface. They put the computer bit in the wrong place.
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Lapibility of the Surface series has long been a joke.
When I first got my SP3 I was in love, it was just a pleasant device to use... then one day I picked up my laptop and was shocked to discover just how miserable I'd actually been.
At a table or desk, my SP3 is fantastic... but on my lap I prefer a laptop.
I think the Surface Book is a good potential compromise... I just wish it wasn't so bloody expensive.
Re:Tablets with Keyboards? (Score:5, Funny)
Wait so on stable surface the surface is fantastic, but on your lap a laptop is better?
Shocking, who would have guessed!
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Lapibility of the Surface series has long been a joke.
The real joke is the people who bought a tablet device and then complain about the lapibility.
I really discovered how miserable I'd actually been when I found out how limiting it was having a damn keyboard attached to a monitor and a heavy device with the only alternative being a tablet that could best be described as a toy (iPad).
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Not really, all devices come with trade offs.
Given the choice between using my SP3 on my lap or a 4 year old, 17 inch laptop... I'm still going to go with the SP3.
There are times I want a laptop like experience with a keyboard... and there are times I want a tablet experience so just fold it away.
Some things I do I could do just as easily with an iPad, and sometimes I want to run a full on dev environment and get w
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Not really, all devices come with trade offs.
My point exactly. If you want lapability don't get a surface.
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I need a keyboard to do the things I do with a computer.
Then this device is not for you. Don't buy it.
For millions of people (myself included) there is zero requirement to have the screen supported by the keyboard and I find the hinged screen support with detachable keyboard far more useful than I ever found my laptop.
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The Millions you cite are the multi-year lifetime sales. Surface never sold well compared to other tablets which is why Intel pulled the plug on Atom so the end is in sight for Surface.
Some people (like you) bought into the Microsoft's pitch on needing x86 compatibility and the Win8 interface in a tablet. Most didn't and in a year or so Surface will be history, laptops and other tablets will continue to be sold.
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Surface never sold well compared to other tablets which is why Intel pulled the plug on Atom so the end is in sight for Surface.
The Surface Pros which numbers I cite don't use Atoms. The rest of your post is equally bullshit.
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Then refer what you use as a surface pro as they are not interchangeable. So sorry for you that Intel recognized that the Surface would never well sell enough to make money.
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Yeah Intel is giving up. It's totally not creating the Goldmont platform as the successor to Atom in tablet market. *rolleyes*. Also I'm sure that the Surface is the reason why Intel cancelled the upcoming Atom lineup of SoCs which were targeted at low-cost smartphones.
Maybe Slashdot should have a checkbox saying "I declare I've researched this topic before hitting post". But since you're unwilling to do the basic amount of research I'll be kind and do it for you. Intel has announced the end of the Atom lin
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Ah so that's what Intel means when it says that it is literally decimating their workforce and reassigning everyone that used to work on Atom elsewhere. Thanks for explaining because without your explanations one would understand that Intel has decided to cut it's loss makers and reinforce their higher margin products while continuing just enough future products to avoid lawsuits from partners that were being abandoned. Without your inside knowledge that Intel plans ahead for more than 4 years, one would wr
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Or what? Is it a cool world? Devito? Devito? Devito?
Ahh Karla, My favorite of the Neverland Express. Until Patty Russo came along.
So many great things could be told about Linux-4.8 (Score:5, Informative)
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Honestly, that is the most important thing for me. The rest of linux 4.8 is kind of "business as usual".
If I had knew that Linux could boot and be usable on a Surface, I would have bought that 2 month ago instead of a dell laptop.
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Slashvertisement aside, the fact that the Linux kernel is adding drivers that enable specific support for a Microsoft tablet is pretty damn significant news.
The remainder of the updates are either incremental or simply merging in something that has existed for a long time outside of the mainline kernel. Like whoop-de-do we now have RPi3 SoC support as if that didn't exist the day the RPi3 hit the shelves through the various official and unofficial distros.
It's an ad! (Score:2, Insightful)
Only because it mentions something positive about a device that was made by a company Slashdot tends to hate.
To Serve Linux (Score:2)
It's an ad!
No, it's a cookbook.
Why does this need kernel level support? (Score:2)
I often see Linux kernel announcements that contain updates to support a particular hardware device. This doesn't seem to make sense to me; that's what drivers are for. It might make sense when supporting a new class of device, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the first touch screen Linux has supported. Can someone care to explain? Thanks.
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Thanks :)